Well, nice apology. Apple knows they made a prosumer app.
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips
This is what the people arguing FCPX is fine don't understand. They have obviously never seen a professional edit house and simply have no clue that multiple edit suits require a known path ahead in terms of software to justify the huge cost of high end Mac Pros and trained staff. They have to know their investment is going to keep working or else they have to jump ship to Premiere or Avid
This product is a great prosumer product no question but edit houses have to have upgrade paths for ongoing projects (i.e. the same data and projects as used in 7) and training and support and as you say the ability to buy more of what they have.
I seriously hope Apple keep FCPX as a prosumer product but return 7 to the stores and look very hard at updating 7 with a workable path for professionals to move up.
I am not a pro video editor, but I reject this "iMovie Pro" or "prosumer" app argument. Read Pogue's article. It's missing a few features it seems some pros need, but it seems the vast majority (to say the least) are there.
That being said, I can see some support for the "Apple made a prosumer app" argument. For one thing, they utterly ruined iMovie by removing the timeline, making it unusable for what I do (I would say I'm definitely a prosumer...I create 45 minute videos for narrated school lessons, family videos, etc--with coordinated narration and soundtracks). I now use iMovie HD instead. And the same argument was made with the 2009 MacBook Pros--that they were not for "pros" at all. Overall though, I think one has to evaluate the product on its own. In that regard, FCP appears to be suitable for the majority of Pro editors. No?
Everyone says it's 1.0 but Apple is stressing that it is X as in 10.0.
But when I look at the rush to pull FCP 7 off the shelves (reportedly even of other retailers) combined with this version that in the charitible interpretation they just didn't have time to complete, I'm wondering if the rush is because FCP 7 isn't going to work well with Lion and they don't want to support it.
Personally, I thought Apple took WAY too long to upgrade FCP to 64-bit, multi-core, graphic processor, etc. Premiere got it done right away. I'm not interested in waiting until they maybe decide to add some key features back in. They've lost me to Premiere and they'll have to do something REAL compelling to get me back.
I am not a pro video editor, but I reject this "iMovie Pro" or "prosumer" app argument. Read Pogue's article. It's missing a few features it seems some pros need, but it seems the vast majority (to say the least) are there.
Except that to call it an upgrade to FCP, one would assume that it should open and convert files saved in the most recent version of FCP prior to the new version, which it doesn't do. It does, however, open and convert older iMovie projects, so in functionality, it is closer to an upgrade to iMovie than to FCP.
Overall though, I think one has to evaluate the product on its own. In that regard, FCP appears to be suitable for the majority of Pro editors. No?
You're not keeping up. FCPX is missing key features that make it unusable for many pros.
It may gain these features back as updates get rolled out. That seems to be Apple's plan.
There is subtle but real difference between consumer apps and pro apps. If a consumer app is missing a certain 'feature' but is desirable in other respects then it may be successful and well received. But for 'pro' apps expectations are different. It can do the job or it can't. Its a tool that you can use to complete a task....or it isn't. Having other desirable qualities won't make up for missing key features. FCPX has this problem. I'm not going to rehash all the missing features, they're better addressed in other posts. Check them out in the other FCPX threads.
Steve said that Apple interviews "customers" and listens to what they have to say. Apparently, Apple needed to ask a few more people regarding these changes and maybe avoided some of this?!
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That is an interesting observation. It seems that Apple did interview Pro Editors and Larry Jordan said it would be 'jaw dropping' if I remember correctly. What were these people thinking? Or were they too busy making training videos and the such to actually let Apple know that there were serious features missing?
You're not keeping up. FCPX is missing key features that make it unusable for many pros.
It may gain these features back as updates get rolled out. That seems to be Apple's plan.
There is subtle but real difference between consumer apps and pro apps. If a consumer app is missing a certain 'feature' but is desirable in other respects then it may be successful and well received. But for 'pro' apps expectations are different. It can do the job or it can't. Its a tool that you can use to complete a task....or it isn't. Having other desirable qualities won't make up for missing key features. FCPX has this problem. I'm not going to rehash all the missing features, they're better addressed in other posts. Check them out in the other FCPX threads.
A pro-app also needs to be able to speak to a range of pro level hardware and software that no consumer would ever need. The road from an off line edit to broadcast is treacherous.
Everyone says it's 1.0 but Apple is stressing that it is X as in 10.0.
But when I look at the rush to pull FCP 7 off the shelves (reportedly even of other retailers) combined with this version that in the charitible interpretation they just didn't have time to complete, I'm wondering if the rush is because FCP 7 isn't going to work well with Lion and they don't want to support it.
Personally, I thought Apple took WAY too long to upgrade FCP to 64-bit, multi-core, graphic processor, etc. Premiere got it done right away. I'm not interested in waiting until they maybe decide to add some key features back in. They've lost me to Premiere and they'll have to do something REAL compelling to get me back.
I don't know premier, so I am asking these to try and understand your reason for converting from FCP7/FCS.
1) Can you open FCP7 projects in Premiere?
2) Does Premiere have the Tape I/O features of FCS?
3) Does Premiere have have the collaboration features of FCP?
4) What compelling features does Premiere have that are missing from FCP7?
5) Approximately how many FCP7 projects do you have completed?
6) How long will it take to convert your legacy FCP7 projects to Premiere so that you can discontinue FCP7/FCS altogether (remove it from your system)?
Here we go again with the gnashing of teeth and pulling of hairs as if Apple is the most unresponsive company in the world. In fact Apple is pretty good at fixing snafus. This is how they operate though:
1. They will not talk about it while they are gathering information and devising and testing a solution. Most of the time they won't even acknowledge the problem but that doesn't mean they're not aware of and working on it. If they say anything at all it will not go beyond" we're aware of the problem and are working on a solution". More than that will just extend the news cycle on the problem. It's just bad p.r. to draw further attention to the cockup
2. They will not happy-talk the complainers by soothing their feelings with "yes, a bad thing has happened to you poor baby and it's totally not your fault, it's ours." It's just bad pr to have too many Apple mea culpas floating around cyberspace.
3. And after what always seems to be an interminable wait (this perception mainly due to #1 above), Apple will come out with a solution that most people are happy about. With one caveat: If Apple's strategic plan calls for killing FCP7 then no amount of histrionics will revive it. Which probably means backward compatibility for FCP-X is never going to happen.
So if people disregard the PR strategy, which is first and foremost about shortening the news cycle, and just pay attention to what they do and not what they say, then there would be a lot less gnashing of teeth and pulling of hairs.
That is an interesting observation. It seems that Apple did interview Pro Editors and Larry Jordan said it would be 'jaw dropping' if I remember correctly. What were these people thinking? Or were they too busy making training videos and the such to actually let Apple know that there were serious features missing?
Well, maybe they saw the POTENTIAL of the new app. Maybe they had a glimpse in to the future and their jaws dropped. Maybe the conversation that came afterwards has been less well reported.
FCPX is missing key features that make it unusable for many pros.
I think FCPX is a fairly adequate application for professional work if you aren't already using FCS.
For example: A new TV commercial, first launch, it runs 30 sec. Then we re-edit it to be 15 seconds after the initial campaign. Then finally down to 10 or even 5 seconds. Another example is we have several takes and we mix and match scenes.
When you already have everything logged and captured in FCP you don't want to go back and reinvent the wheel to continue working with a project. You want to open the project and save it as a new name and make some modifications, FCPX does not work like that or even open up the original FCP 7 project file.
Apple has damaged their reputation to the point of burning down bridges. This isn't just about FCPX, this is about Xserve and enterprise.
Steve's management style of ignoring the present for the sake of the future may work for some things, but if you want to convince businesses that you're a reliable PARTNER you need to keep selling a product so long there is demand for it. This is why Microsoft is kicking Apple's ass in enterprise. They don't try to sell you a tractor when you want a mule.
I don't work in a video-editing environment, but I have been a developer and have had technologies dropped from under my feet by Jobs. Working with this company is not for the feint of heart (or perhaps those without a day-job or rich family).
Except that to call it an upgrade to FCP, one would assume that it should open and convert files saved in the most recent version of FCP prior to the new version, which it doesn't do. It does, however, open and convert older iMovie projects, so in functionality, it is closer to an upgrade to iMovie than to FCP.
That's an oversimplification!
FCPX projects and events are a superset of iMovie projects and events. Apple owns all the iMovie code and thus can write FCPX equivalents to support iMovie content and still take advantage of the enhancements in FCPX (OCL, GCD, etc.)
FCP7 projects include a lot of 3rd-party effects and filters. This 3rd-party code will not run without change on the FCPX code-base. Even if Apple could "simulate" these 3rd-party additions, they would not perform up to par with the FCPX UX -- no real-time presentation without rendering, etc. Apple does not own this code, therefore it cannot upgrade the code to exploit FCPX.
Apparently, once the initial features of FCPX were solidified, the FCPX plugin SDK was made available to some developers.
There are a few 3rd-party plugins already rewritten for FCPX.
The FCPX plugin SDK is now generally available, so I expect many more developers will convert their plugins to FCPX.
You say: "It does, however, open and convert older iMovie projects, so in functionality, it is closer to an upgrade to iMovie than to FCP."
FCPX can do some things, now, that FCP7 will never be able to do without a total rewrite -- probably taking 2-3 years to deliver a robust and reliable replacement.
I suspect that within 18 months, FCPX will have enough features to satisfy most pro needs.
Apple has damaged their reputation to the point of burning down bridges. This isn't just about FCPX, this is about Xserve and enterprise.
Steve's management style of ignoring the present for the sake of the future may work for some things, but if you want to convince businesses that you're a reliable PARTNER you need to keep selling a product so long there is demand for it. This is why Microsoft is kicking Apple's ass in enterprise. They don't try to sell you a tractor when you want a mule.
I don't work in a video-editing environment, but I have been a developer and have had technologies dropped from under my feet by Jobs. Working with this company is not for the feint of heart (or perhaps those without a day-job or rich family).
I hate to be the one to tell you, but Apple could do quite well if they discontinued every one of their computing and software products except the iPhone. It's worth that much to them now.
Its funny reading this thread that most of the Apple apologists have no idea how FCP and FCP Server work versus the people that actually do professional post production work know what they are talking about. No, taking movies with your iPhone or a camera from Best Buy does not count as professional.
I hate to be the one to tell you, but Apple could do quite well if they discontinued every one of their computing and software products except the iPhone. It's worth that much to them now.
Its not about making smartphones. Its the integrated ecosystem of hardware and software that gives customers a good user experience when using Apple devices. You won't get that with just the iPhone alone.
great point - this is a perfect example of why enterprises dont adopt apple, even if they are better, which fo general business, I argue they are not, in a professional enterprise one needs to know that their platform is going to be there - For example Office 2010 has been out for over a year and 2007 is still availible to business licensees.
This is kind of a catch-22 for Apple. Apple is famous (infamous??) for their secrecy about products cooking in their skunkworks. It's a strategy that has worked thus far in the consumer marketplace, because it generates a huge amount of anticipation and media buzz, plus, it keeps competitors in the dark, so they can't slip something in the day before a major Apple product announcement.
The downside to this is there's no way that enterprise and other big entities can make use of this. In fact, it's dangerously counterproductive. Large enterprise entities need to be able to plan months or years ahead, and they need to make sure that their tools will work and that the manufacturer (in this case Apple) will be always available for support.
What I've thought for a while is that Apple should open an enterprise division that would have a completely different market strategy from its "consumer division" (which is currently all of Apple right now). The enterprise division would dispense with the secrecy, and try to find that elusive balance between transparency and not letting the competition get the jump.
Just get the required 10,000 hours in and even you (yes, YOU) could be a pro editor!
I don't have to. I have a couple of guys that are more than qualified.
Like they said, just visit the AVID, FCP, etc., forums and peruse through the thousands of issues, concerns, complaints, workarounds, etc. The only people that were truly happy, were to busy working. Still, if the current crop of professionally made movies, TV and videos are any indication of what some of these guys are producing with their beloved equipment, perhaps they should be looking at new software. The old stuff doesn't seem to help most of them.
In addition, does anybody remember the ton on naysayers trashing FCP a few months ago. Based on the rhetoric, it seemed that only a handful every used and less than that really liked it. Amazing how many have now come out of the woodwork.
Interesting that many are running 5+ year old Macs and PCs. Better yet, many are the same guys that dis Lion, the App Store, the iPad, hell even the iPhone.
Comments
Well, nice apology. Apple knows they made a prosumer app.
This is what the people arguing FCPX is fine don't understand. They have obviously never seen a professional edit house and simply have no clue that multiple edit suits require a known path ahead in terms of software to justify the huge cost of high end Mac Pros and trained staff. They have to know their investment is going to keep working or else they have to jump ship to Premiere or Avid
This product is a great prosumer product no question but edit houses have to have upgrade paths for ongoing projects (i.e. the same data and projects as used in 7) and training and support and as you say the ability to buy more of what they have.
I seriously hope Apple keep FCPX as a prosumer product but return 7 to the stores and look very hard at updating 7 with a workable path for professionals to move up.
I am not a pro video editor, but I reject this "iMovie Pro" or "prosumer" app argument. Read Pogue's article. It's missing a few features it seems some pros need, but it seems the vast majority (to say the least) are there.
http://pogue.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/...nal-cut-pro-x/
That being said, I can see some support for the "Apple made a prosumer app" argument. For one thing, they utterly ruined iMovie by removing the timeline, making it unusable for what I do (I would say I'm definitely a prosumer...I create 45 minute videos for narrated school lessons, family videos, etc--with coordinated narration and soundtracks). I now use iMovie HD instead. And the same argument was made with the 2009 MacBook Pros--that they were not for "pros" at all. Overall though, I think one has to evaluate the product on its own. In that regard, FCP appears to be suitable for the majority of Pro editors. No?
But when I look at the rush to pull FCP 7 off the shelves (reportedly even of other retailers) combined with this version that in the charitible interpretation they just didn't have time to complete, I'm wondering if the rush is because FCP 7 isn't going to work well with Lion and they don't want to support it.
Personally, I thought Apple took WAY too long to upgrade FCP to 64-bit, multi-core, graphic processor, etc. Premiere got it done right away. I'm not interested in waiting until they maybe decide to add some key features back in. They've lost me to Premiere and they'll have to do something REAL compelling to get me back.
I am not a pro video editor, but I reject this "iMovie Pro" or "prosumer" app argument. Read Pogue's article. It's missing a few features it seems some pros need, but it seems the vast majority (to say the least) are there.
Except that to call it an upgrade to FCP, one would assume that it should open and convert files saved in the most recent version of FCP prior to the new version, which it doesn't do. It does, however, open and convert older iMovie projects, so in functionality, it is closer to an upgrade to iMovie than to FCP.
Overall though, I think one has to evaluate the product on its own. In that regard, FCP appears to be suitable for the majority of Pro editors. No?
You're not keeping up. FCPX is missing key features that make it unusable for many pros.
It may gain these features back as updates get rolled out. That seems to be Apple's plan.
There is subtle but real difference between consumer apps and pro apps. If a consumer app is missing a certain 'feature' but is desirable in other respects then it may be successful and well received. But for 'pro' apps expectations are different. It can do the job or it can't. Its a tool that you can use to complete a task....or it isn't. Having other desirable qualities won't make up for missing key features. FCPX has this problem. I'm not going to rehash all the missing features, they're better addressed in other posts. Check them out in the other FCPX threads.
Re-release FCP 7 and call it a day. Rebrand FCP X as FCE until X is ready to replace 7. It's called a transition period.
Go find another platform to work on. That'll be sooner to happen than Apple moving backwards.
Steve said that Apple interviews "customers" and listens to what they have to say. Apparently, Apple needed to ask a few more people regarding these changes and maybe avoided some of this?!
/
/
/
That is an interesting observation. It seems that Apple did interview Pro Editors and Larry Jordan said it would be 'jaw dropping' if I remember correctly. What were these people thinking? Or were they too busy making training videos and the such to actually let Apple know that there were serious features missing?
You're not keeping up. FCPX is missing key features that make it unusable for many pros.
It may gain these features back as updates get rolled out. That seems to be Apple's plan.
There is subtle but real difference between consumer apps and pro apps. If a consumer app is missing a certain 'feature' but is desirable in other respects then it may be successful and well received. But for 'pro' apps expectations are different. It can do the job or it can't. Its a tool that you can use to complete a task....or it isn't. Having other desirable qualities won't make up for missing key features. FCPX has this problem. I'm not going to rehash all the missing features, they're better addressed in other posts. Check them out in the other FCPX threads.
A pro-app also needs to be able to speak to a range of pro level hardware and software that no consumer would ever need. The road from an off line edit to broadcast is treacherous.
Everyone says it's 1.0 but Apple is stressing that it is X as in 10.0.
But when I look at the rush to pull FCP 7 off the shelves (reportedly even of other retailers) combined with this version that in the charitible interpretation they just didn't have time to complete, I'm wondering if the rush is because FCP 7 isn't going to work well with Lion and they don't want to support it.
Personally, I thought Apple took WAY too long to upgrade FCP to 64-bit, multi-core, graphic processor, etc. Premiere got it done right away. I'm not interested in waiting until they maybe decide to add some key features back in. They've lost me to Premiere and they'll have to do something REAL compelling to get me back.
I don't know premier, so I am asking these to try and understand your reason for converting from FCP7/FCS.
1) Can you open FCP7 projects in Premiere?
2) Does Premiere have the Tape I/O features of FCS?
3) Does Premiere have have the collaboration features of FCP?
4) What compelling features does Premiere have that are missing from FCP7?
5) Approximately how many FCP7 projects do you have completed?
6) How long will it take to convert your legacy FCP7 projects to Premiere so that you can discontinue FCP7/FCS altogether (remove it from your system)?
1. They will not talk about it while they are gathering information and devising and testing a solution. Most of the time they won't even acknowledge the problem but that doesn't mean they're not aware of and working on it. If they say anything at all it will not go beyond" we're aware of the problem and are working on a solution". More than that will just extend the news cycle on the problem. It's just bad p.r. to draw further attention to the cockup
2. They will not happy-talk the complainers by soothing their feelings with "yes, a bad thing has happened to you poor baby and it's totally not your fault, it's ours." It's just bad pr to have too many Apple mea culpas floating around cyberspace.
3. And after what always seems to be an interminable wait (this perception mainly due to #1 above), Apple will come out with a solution that most people are happy about. With one caveat: If Apple's strategic plan calls for killing FCP7 then no amount of histrionics will revive it. Which probably means backward compatibility for FCP-X is never going to happen.
So if people disregard the PR strategy, which is first and foremost about shortening the news cycle, and just pay attention to what they do and not what they say, then there would be a lot less gnashing of teeth and pulling of hairs.
That is an interesting observation. It seems that Apple did interview Pro Editors and Larry Jordan said it would be 'jaw dropping' if I remember correctly. What were these people thinking? Or were they too busy making training videos and the such to actually let Apple know that there were serious features missing?
Well, maybe they saw the POTENTIAL of the new app. Maybe they had a glimpse in to the future and their jaws dropped. Maybe the conversation that came afterwards has been less well reported.
FCPX is missing key features that make it unusable for many pros.
I think FCPX is a fairly adequate application for professional work if you aren't already using FCS.
For example: A new TV commercial, first launch, it runs 30 sec. Then we re-edit it to be 15 seconds after the initial campaign. Then finally down to 10 or even 5 seconds. Another example is we have several takes and we mix and match scenes.
When you already have everything logged and captured in FCP you don't want to go back and reinvent the wheel to continue working with a project. You want to open the project and save it as a new name and make some modifications, FCPX does not work like that or even open up the original FCP 7 project file.
Steve's management style of ignoring the present for the sake of the future may work for some things, but if you want to convince businesses that you're a reliable PARTNER you need to keep selling a product so long there is demand for it. This is why Microsoft is kicking Apple's ass in enterprise. They don't try to sell you a tractor when you want a mule.
I don't work in a video-editing environment, but I have been a developer and have had technologies dropped from under my feet by Jobs. Working with this company is not for the feint of heart (or perhaps those without a day-job or rich family).
Except that to call it an upgrade to FCP, one would assume that it should open and convert files saved in the most recent version of FCP prior to the new version, which it doesn't do. It does, however, open and convert older iMovie projects, so in functionality, it is closer to an upgrade to iMovie than to FCP.
That's an oversimplification!
FCPX projects and events are a superset of iMovie projects and events. Apple owns all the iMovie code and thus can write FCPX equivalents to support iMovie content and still take advantage of the enhancements in FCPX (OCL, GCD, etc.)
FCP7 projects include a lot of 3rd-party effects and filters. This 3rd-party code will not run without change on the FCPX code-base. Even if Apple could "simulate" these 3rd-party additions, they would not perform up to par with the FCPX UX -- no real-time presentation without rendering, etc. Apple does not own this code, therefore it cannot upgrade the code to exploit FCPX.
Apparently, once the initial features of FCPX were solidified, the FCPX plugin SDK was made available to some developers.
There are a few 3rd-party plugins already rewritten for FCPX.
The FCPX plugin SDK is now generally available, so I expect many more developers will convert their plugins to FCPX.
You say: "It does, however, open and convert older iMovie projects, so in functionality, it is closer to an upgrade to iMovie than to FCP."
FCPX can do some things, now, that FCP7 will never be able to do without a total rewrite -- probably taking 2-3 years to deliver a robust and reliable replacement.
I suspect that within 18 months, FCPX will have enough features to satisfy most pro needs.
Apple has damaged their reputation to the point of burning down bridges. This isn't just about FCPX, this is about Xserve and enterprise.
Steve's management style of ignoring the present for the sake of the future may work for some things, but if you want to convince businesses that you're a reliable PARTNER you need to keep selling a product so long there is demand for it. This is why Microsoft is kicking Apple's ass in enterprise. They don't try to sell you a tractor when you want a mule.
I don't work in a video-editing environment, but I have been a developer and have had technologies dropped from under my feet by Jobs. Working with this company is not for the feint of heart (or perhaps those without a day-job or rich family).
I hate to be the one to tell you, but Apple could do quite well if they discontinued every one of their computing and software products except the iPhone. It's worth that much to them now.
For FCP5, the last version that was available without purchasing FCS, the upgrade was $399 and $999 for standalone. FCS was $1299.
http://www.macworld.com/product/2665...cut_pro_5.html
You are right.
I hate to be the one to tell you, but Apple could do quite well if they discontinued every one of their computing and software products except the iPhone. It's worth that much to them now.
Its not about making smartphones. Its the integrated ecosystem of hardware and software that gives customers a good user experience when using Apple devices. You won't get that with just the iPhone alone.
great point - this is a perfect example of why enterprises dont adopt apple, even if they are better, which fo general business, I argue they are not, in a professional enterprise one needs to know that their platform is going to be there - For example Office 2010 has been out for over a year and 2007 is still availible to business licensees.
This is kind of a catch-22 for Apple. Apple is famous (infamous??) for their secrecy about products cooking in their skunkworks. It's a strategy that has worked thus far in the consumer marketplace, because it generates a huge amount of anticipation and media buzz, plus, it keeps competitors in the dark, so they can't slip something in the day before a major Apple product announcement.
The downside to this is there's no way that enterprise and other big entities can make use of this. In fact, it's dangerously counterproductive. Large enterprise entities need to be able to plan months or years ahead, and they need to make sure that their tools will work and that the manufacturer (in this case Apple) will be always available for support.
What I've thought for a while is that Apple should open an enterprise division that would have a completely different market strategy from its "consumer division" (which is currently all of Apple right now). The enterprise division would dispense with the secrecy, and try to find that elusive balance between transparency and not letting the competition get the jump.
Just get the required 10,000 hours in and even you (yes, YOU) could be a pro editor!
I don't have to. I have a couple of guys that are more than qualified.
Like they said, just visit the AVID, FCP, etc., forums and peruse through the thousands of issues, concerns, complaints, workarounds, etc. The only people that were truly happy, were to busy working. Still, if the current crop of professionally made movies, TV and videos are any indication of what some of these guys are producing with their beloved equipment, perhaps they should be looking at new software. The old stuff doesn't seem to help most of them.
In addition, does anybody remember the ton on naysayers trashing FCP a few months ago. Based on the rhetoric, it seemed that only a handful every used and less than that really liked it. Amazing how many have now come out of the woodwork.
Interesting that many are running 5+ year old Macs and PCs. Better yet, many are the same guys that dis Lion, the App Store, the iPad, hell even the iPhone.