Religion freedom vs. academic freedom - discrimination or not?
<a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A13871-2003Feb15.html"; target="_blank">No recommendation for you!</a>
Interesting lawsuit going on here...we have a student who wanted a recommendation for medical school. However he had to drop this class and take it at another college because while he could meet the first two criteria, get an "A" and get to know the professor. However he couldn't meet the third criteria which is to profess that evolution is fact.
The suit contends that to withhold a recommendation due to a students beliefs is discrimination and in this case specifically religious discrimination.
The university is a public university and of course that might change the outcome of this lawsuit quite a bit.
What do you think? I personally could understand the professor asking for an explanation about how evolution works and even grilling someone of religious faith on the details to be antagonistic. However is it really proper to demand that they profess it as fact and think it is the only way that humans originated? Is it thought facism hiding behind freedom? Is it discrimination?
When I was in college I had a geology professor. Now all professors, even the hard sciences, have their pet theories. His was that the main cause of the large craters on the moon was volcanism and not meteor impacts. Had I gotten an "A" in his class (I did), got to know him (I did); would it still be right of him to demand that I declare that the large craters on the moon were created by volcanism before he could give me a letter of recommendation. (No clue, I didn't need one from him) I would have to say no because it is about demonstrating knowledge and not enforcing beliefs.
What do you think?
Nick
[ 02-20-2003: Message edited by: trumptman ]</p>
Interesting lawsuit going on here...we have a student who wanted a recommendation for medical school. However he had to drop this class and take it at another college because while he could meet the first two criteria, get an "A" and get to know the professor. However he couldn't meet the third criteria which is to profess that evolution is fact.
The suit contends that to withhold a recommendation due to a students beliefs is discrimination and in this case specifically religious discrimination.
The university is a public university and of course that might change the outcome of this lawsuit quite a bit.
What do you think? I personally could understand the professor asking for an explanation about how evolution works and even grilling someone of religious faith on the details to be antagonistic. However is it really proper to demand that they profess it as fact and think it is the only way that humans originated? Is it thought facism hiding behind freedom? Is it discrimination?
When I was in college I had a geology professor. Now all professors, even the hard sciences, have their pet theories. His was that the main cause of the large craters on the moon was volcanism and not meteor impacts. Had I gotten an "A" in his class (I did), got to know him (I did); would it still be right of him to demand that I declare that the large craters on the moon were created by volcanism before he could give me a letter of recommendation. (No clue, I didn't need one from him) I would have to say no because it is about demonstrating knowledge and not enforcing beliefs.
What do you think?
Nick
[ 02-20-2003: Message edited by: trumptman ]</p>
Comments
Cheers
Scott
edit: professors are also free, by the way, to write TERRIBLE recommendations for students. This saves him the trouble of having to tell a school that a student entering the sciences does not believe in the theory organizing much of the study. For a student of biology, not recognizing that evolution is a viable theory for explaining how species change over time is like a physics student not accepting gravity as an explanation for why we don't all fly off the earth.
[ 02-20-2003: Message edited by: midwinter ]
[ 02-20-2003: Message edited by: midwinter ]</p>
I think some types of religious beliefs clearly contradict science. If the belief doesn't contradict science (e.g., God started the process), it shouldn't be a problem for anyone. It seems to me his question is fair game for science - the origin of the species. If he had asked about whether there is a God, or if God created the universe, questions that science probably cannot answer, that would be different.
I'm not talking about the legality of it - I think he probably has every right to come up with whatever policy for letters he wants, even if stupid or discriminatory.
<strong>Professors are free to write or refuse to write letters of rec for whatever reasons they choose. </strong><hr></blockquote>
So like if someone's black or white? Or maybe Muslim or Christian? If his policy is not based on the content of the character or academic ability then it's discriminatory. In that case he'd be better off writing none at all.
You walked in to that one.
<strong>
So like if someone's black or white? Or maybe Muslim or Christian? If his policy is not based on the content of the character or academic ability then it's discriminatory. In that case he'd be better off writing none at all.
You walked in to that one.</strong><hr></blockquote>
A professor is free to write or not write a recommendation for whatever reasons they wish. Character has nothing to do with it.
See the edit I just added to my previous post.
I walked into nothing.
Cheers
Scott
<strong>
A professor is free to write or not write a recommendation for whatever reasons they wish. Character has nothing to do with it.
See the edit I just added to my previous post.
I walked into nothing.
Cheers
Scott</strong><hr></blockquote>
Okay so if/when I write one for my students I'll exclude women. It's my "right" right?
[ 02-20-2003: Message edited by: Scott ]</p>
<strong>
Okay so if/when I write one for my students I'll exclude women. It's my "right" right?
[ 02-20-2003: Message edited by: Scott ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
If/when you are asked to write letters of recommendation for students, as I am sometimes asked to do by my students, you are free to write or not write them for whatever reasons you wish.
It is a recommendation. It is not a class.
Cheers
Scott
<strong>And if someone would believe in reincarnation (hypothetically) he would be squalified as well ... <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
No. Reincarnation has nothing to do with Darwin's theory of evolution/natural selection, which is simply about how "succesful" random variations will be preserved.
Believing in reincarnation (or, for that matter, the Judeo-Christan God, or Genesis, or whatever) doesn't mean that you don't think that an adaptation that helps an animal survive or mate won't be passed on to its offspring.
To deny that is to deny the basis of all animal husbandry for the past few thousand years.
Cheers
Scott
<strong>
No. Reincarnation has nothing to do with Darwin's theory of evolution/natural selection, which is simply about how "succesful" random variations will be preserved.
Believing in reincarnation (or, for that matter, the Judeo-Christan God, or Genesis, or whatever) doesn't mean that you don't think that an adaptation that helps an animal survive or mate won't be passed on to its offspring.
To deny that is to deny the basis of all animal husbandry for the past few thousand years.
Cheers
Scott</strong><hr></blockquote>
Don't you think though there is a big difference between being asked to explain it and being asked to endorse it?
Like I mentioned, if he wanted to really be antagonistic he could ask them to explain it in extreme detail to get the recommendation.
However he states on his website that he simply doesn't think someone who doesn't believe in evolution would be a good doctor. A letter of recommendation is required to get into just about every medical school I know about. So the professor is literally using his personal beliefs to determine who will and won't get into medical school.
As others mentioned if he did this based off of race or gender and it affected the ability of those groups to apply to that institution, I am sure it would be reviewed/sued as well.
Nick
<strong>
Don't you think though there is a big difference between being asked to explain it and being asked to endorse it?
Like I mentioned, if he wanted to really be antagonistic he could ask them to explain it in extreme detail to get the recommendation.
However he states on his website that he simply doesn't think someone who doesn't believe in evolution would be a good doctor. A letter of recommendation is required to get into just about every medical school I know about. So the professor is literally using his personal beliefs to determine who will and won't get into medical school.
As others mentioned if he did this based off of race or gender and it affected the ability of those groups to apply to that institution, I am sure it would be reviewed/sued as well.
Nick</strong><hr></blockquote>
Let me say this again: this prof is perfectly entitled to write or not write a recommendation for whatever reasons he wishes.
To which I add this: LETTERS OF RECOMMENDATION ARE INHERENTLY DISCRIMINITORY. That's what they do. They offer discriminating opinions about a student's strengths or weaknesses, and about a student's ability to succeed in a certain environment. This guy is attempting to save students some trouble by placing his politics right there up front.
And yet, this guy somehow missed it.
What, this kid couldn't take another biology class? This prof is the ONLY one in the entire bio department? He didn't know that this was the policy? I find that hard to believe. News travels fast on university campuses. The article made it sound as if he took this ONE guy specifically for the recommendation.
This sounds like it was little more than a plant of some kind...that this kid (who seemingly isn't very good at anything else in school, according to the letter) specifically took this guy in order to bring about a situation just like this.
Two things stick out:
1) The kid went STRAIGHT for the lawsuit, and there's no indication in the article that he even TALKED to the professor.
2) The kid transferred schools rather than simply take another class from another professor who doesn't have that same requirement.
3) This kid isn't being persecuted. The professor is. He had no "right" to a recommendation in the first place. Such things aren't guaranteed. The professor, however, has a right to write or not write a letter for whatever reasons he wishes, and it seems that you all would take that right away from him.
Cheers
Scott
[ 02-20-2003: Message edited by: midwinter ]</p>
What a prick, he should be fired!
Someone send this kid a care package of kleenex.
[quote] The Justice Department inquiry was prompted by a complaint from the Liberty Legal Institute of Plano, Tex., a lawyers group that favors prayer in public schools and the right to distribute Christian literature at public schools and park <hr></blockquote>
BTW I disagree with the lawsuit. Lawyers are evil and immoral. There's nothing a lawyer can do to fix this.
[ 02-21-2003: Message edited by: Scott ]</p>
<strong>
Okay so if this prof said "No recommendations for N****RS because they make bad doctors" what you'd all you say then? But because it's not a politically protected class of people the shifting morals of the US says this is okay</strong><hr></blockquote>
Could you please tell me the similarity between a racist slur and not recommending someone who seemingly doesn't accept the professor's interpretation of science?
If you could draw the parallel that'd be fantastic.
[quote]<strong>Lawyers are evil and immoral.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Shine on you crazy diamond.
<strong>Are we reading the same thread? Which thread are you reading because the one I'm reading has people posting over and over again that a prof can deny a letter of recommendation for what ever reason.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Indeed he can.
The two situations are not comparable, however, and you attempted to draw a correlation between the two to further your pathetic "oppressed while male Christian" argument that you try to interject into every thread that it could possibly fit into.
as for evolution and all that....school is always like that...if a teacher tells you: evolution is a theory based on observations of fossil records....and on a test the next week that teacher has a true/false question that asks:
is evolution a theory based on observations of fossil records?
and if you put false, the teacher will mark it wrong and you can complain all you want, the answer will stay false based on the fact that that was what was taught in class....
move on people, nothing to see here....humans with an agenda playing games.....ahhh, the mysteries of life....g
g'rat has the best quotes though....shine on you crazy diamond...ha <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> ...i wish i was as witty as the rat....g
ps...scott, have you ever asked for a letter of recommendation?? would you ask a professor you barely know that you don't agree with and who doesn't agree with you?? i wouldn't...
just like i wouldn't ask for one from someone who dislikes drunken irishmen...
[quote] Okay so if/when I write one for my students I'll exclude women. It's my "right" right? <hr></blockquote>
yep, your right....it would make you a bad person, but still would be your right...
[ 02-21-2003: Message edited by: thegelding ]</p>
<strong>
Indeed he can.
The two situations are not comparable, however, and you attempted to draw a correlation between the two to further your pathetic "oppressed while male Christian" argument that you try to interject into every thread that it could possibly fit into.</strong><hr></blockquote>
**** you again. I don't "try to interject into every thread" a "'oppressed while male Christian' argument". I can see your status hasn't changed. You're still a troll posing as a moderator.
I 100% guaranty had this student been told "no letters for blacks or Muslims or ...." the locals here would be histerical with anger. But because this prof found some scientific cover for his bigotry the locals here can brush it off comfortably.
<strong>
**** you again. I don't "try to interject into every thread" a "'oppressed while male Christian' argument". I can see your status hasn't changed. You're still a troll posing as a moderator.
.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hmmm, here is a fantastic letter of recommandation.