scott scott scott....sigh...the locals here are mostly right leaning white males like yourself...which isn't a bad thing...just a thing....
again, scott, if you need/want a letter of recommendation, who do you ask? someone you disagree with or someone you agree with?
if you are black do you ask a KKK person for a recommendation?? if you are an aetheist do you as the priest?? if you are the born-again do you ask the communist?? if you are pro-choice do you ask randal terry??
the recommendation letter game has been played for years...you ask the people who will give you a good letter....g
<strong>I 100% guaranty had this student been told "no letters for blacks or Muslims or ...." the locals here would be histerical with anger. But because this prof found some scientific cover for his bigotry the locals here can brush it off comfortably.</strong><hr></blockquote>
There is no bigotry in his stance. There is no scientific basis for creationism so what sense does it make for him to endorce someone as a scientist when their beliefs conflict with his view of science?
Why even want a recommendation from him?
Maybe if he was a professor teaching 'Why Blacks and Muslims are inferior 101' at Bob Jones University you might be able to draw that parallel...
Let me say this again: this prof is perfectly entitled to write or not write a recommendation for whatever reasons he wishes.
To which I add this: LETTERS OF RECOMMENDATION ARE INHERENTLY DISCRIMINITORY. That's what they do. They offer discriminating opinions about a student's strengths or weaknesses, and about a student's ability to succeed in a certain environment. This guy is attempting to save students some trouble by placing his politics right there up front.
And yet, this guy somehow missed it.
What, this kid couldn't take another biology class? This prof is the ONLY one in the entire bio department? He didn't know that this was the policy? I find that hard to believe. News travels fast on university campuses. The article made it sound as if he took this ONE guy specifically for the recommendation.
This sounds like it was little more than a plant of some kind...that this kid (who seemingly isn't very good at anything else in school, according to the letter) specifically took this guy in order to bring about a situation just like this.
Two things stick out:
1) The kid went STRAIGHT for the lawsuit, and there's no indication in the article that he even TALKED to the professor.
2) The kid transferred schools rather than simply take another class from another professor who doesn't have that same requirement.
3) This kid isn't being persecuted. The professor is. He had no "right" to a recommendation in the first place. Such things aren't guaranteed. The professor, however, has a right to write or not write a letter for whatever reasons he wishes, and it seems that you all would take that right away from him.
I can't say for sure that the schedule was the same when this guy tried to take the class. However it mentions in the article that the professor was named Dini. According to this schedule there are three classes of Biology II and all three sections are only taught by him.
So there really was likely no alternative to going through this professor. You ask why he didn't discuss it with the professor. This is from the professor's own website which the article mentioned has actually softened it's stance and changed his question wording in light of the pending lawsuit.
[quote] Criterion 3
If you set up an appointment to discuss the writing of a letter of recommendation, I will ask you: "How do you account for the scientific origin of the human species?" If you will not give a scientific answer to this question, then you should not seek my recommendation. <hr></blockquote>
Pretty cut and dried don't you think? The question before the lawsuit was simply, "How do you think the human species originated?"
It isn't whether we would take the ability to set and use criteria to give letters of recommendation out to students. It is just that the criteria cannot be discriminatory.
I have to do this myself as a landlord. You would think with your own personal property, you could use basically any criteria you want. However if I wouldn't rent to someone because they are unmarried and living together I would be sued. I am allowed to discriminate on smoking and pets. That is really it. Otherwise my criteria, based on income, credit score, and job history, must be applied fairly and equally to all.
The professor could easily make his criteria non-discriminatory. He could require everyone submit to taking an exam testing their knowledge about the theory of evolution and require 100% on it. That would not be saying, you must think as I think and believe as I believe.
not letting someone live in your rental property is not the same thing at all...a roof over your head vs a freakin letter....this young man could get a letter of recommendation from just about anybody...he asked this professor...professor sez no....does student ask another professor or his priest or his mom?? no, he sues...g
nick, if you want a letter of recommendation from me you have to think (or pretend to think at least) like me...if you want my letter bad enough you will do it...if you don't, you won't....simple...it is the business world, the working world, the academic world, heck, even the religious world...they all work like that...we have protections that ensure that housing and food and such are equal to all (or most)....but in life you hang in a group that you get along with and agree with....would bush ask clinton for a letter of recommendation...and if so, would clinton have to give bush a good recommendation??? perhaps this professor should give out letters to everyone who asks, but for people who go to his class to learn from him, but then disagree with his teachings, perhaps he should just write, "student didn't seem to learn in my class"....there is a sparkling letter of recommendation that would get the kid into medical school...and would it be "discrimination" if he wrote a letter saying that? g
There is no bigotry in his stance. There is no scientific basis for creationism so what sense does it make for him to endorce someone as a scientist when their beliefs conflict with his view of science?
Why even want a recommendation from him?
Maybe if he was a professor teaching 'Why Blacks and Muslims are inferior 101' at Bob Jones University you might be able to draw that parallel...</strong><hr></blockquote>
Why want it? Simple the application process for medical school requires the letter of recommendation. The only professor teaching that section of Biology was Dini and so Dino was the only guy who could give him the required letter. Dini did not do so based off of the students performance in the class or his willingness to come and meet during office hours. He did so by purposefully seeking out a philosphical position and applying a litmus test.
His own website states that evolution is fact and anyone who doesn't believe so wouldn't be a good doctor. He even goes so far as to state that they must believe in both micro and macroevolution.
Suppose the criteria were give a scientific basis to justify homosexuality.
Since homosexuality does not advance the "fittest" (since it doesn't promote procreation) it is hard to justify scientifically. I mean sure there is shoddy science unverified by second sources, but you can find that for practically any viewpoint.
The criteria should the professor to determine if the candidate deserves a favorable statement regarding their academic qualifications. It should not seek to dip into other areas because the letter itself does not concern other areas.
If I asked you for sex for a letter or recommendation, it would be harassment. If I asked you for cash it would be unethical. The letter concerns academic qualifications and that is what the criteria should address.
[quote] The letter concerns academic qualifications and that is what the criteria should address. <hr></blockquote>
if the professor teaches evolution....and you sit through his class....and then say you don't believe in evolution, it would appear you did not learn his "teachings"...so why would he recommend you in a letter?
g
if the medical school will only accept letters of recommendation from certain people, perhaps the student should sue the medical school....i think a school should be forced to accept more sources for recommendation...not that more professors should be forced to write letters for students they don't agree with
The professor needs to allow his students to have their own freedom to make up their own minds. I would take this prick to court in a flash and I would ensure he loses his job.
This is a subject that will not go away. As you all know I opened a lively talk over the subject. There is no need for this guy to play these games with his students.
Fellowship
Let me add that this guy has just created a new Fellowship (a person who will defend creationism) by treating this student this way. Don't ask me how I am so sure about this. Hmmm did I have this kind of treatment in college? This is the problem I have with these people. Bring it on...
All you will do is create leaders in the field that stands 180 degrees from the trash you teach.
<strong>not letting someone live in your rental property is not the same thing at all...a roof over your head vs a freakin letter....this young man could get a letter of recommendation from just about anybody...he asked this professor...professor sez no....does student ask another professor or his priest or his mom?? no, he sues...g
nick, if you want a letter of recommendation from me you have to think (or pretend to think at least) like me...if you want my letter bad enough you will do it...if you don't, you won't....simple...it is the business world, the working world, the academic world, heck, even the religious world...they all work like that...we have protections that ensure that housing and food and such are equal to all (or most)....but if life you hang in a group that you get along with and agree with....would bush ask clinton for a letter of recommendation...and if so, would clinton have to give bush a good recommendation??? perhaps this professor should give out letters to everyone, but for people who go to his class and learn from him, but then disagree with his teachings, perhaps he should just write, student didn't seem to learn in my class....there is a sparkling letter of recommendation that would get the kid into medical school...g
First he couldn't get the letter from anyone. Dini was the only professor teaching that class. Secondly the letter is required for admission to medical school. It isn't just a letter as you contend. It determines his future, it isn't a junk mail offer for a credit card. I would consider that at least as important as a temporary roof over your head.
Likewise private property and the use of it is at least as well established as the right to religious and free speech. Yet we do have to curtail it for public interest. In this case we are talking about a public university. The professor and the university have a responsibility to insure that the public interest is served and that criteria for academic letters of recommendation are indeed academic.
You give strawmen (surprise there) and knock them down by using absurd criteria. Clinton wouldn't give Bush a recommendation because his criteria for giving a democratic recommendation would include being a democrat.
The criteria the professor states, that no one objects to, is that you must have taken a class with the professor. You must have gotten an "A" from the professor. You must have gotten to know the professor during office hours.
All these relate to a letter or recommendation regarding academic ability. The last criteria doesn't.
Please focus on the objectional about criteria, not on whether there can be criteria.
students do have free will and all that....why do you want to take it away from the professor....
i guess i should expect this though...we constantly have medical students threatening to get lawyers if they get a freakin bad evaluation on a rotation at the hospital....you can't write, this person is lazy or stupid or whatnot...hell, if you don't say that so and so is the next coming of christ the freaking weenies threaten to sue...
FSCiB...if a satan worshipping child abuser asked you for a letter of reference (and you couldn't write a bad one), what would you do?? freedom....sweet freedom...freedom to believe what you want...freedom to attempt any profession you want...freedom to write letters if you want...freedom to refuse....land of the free baby....gotta love it...g
if the professor teaches evolution....and you sit through his class....and then say you don't believe in evolution, it would appear you did not learn his "teachings"...so why would he recommend you in a letter?
g
if the medical school will only accept letters of recommendation from certain people, perhaps the student should sue the medical school....i think a school should be forced to accept more sources for recommendation...not that more professors should be forced to write letters for students they don't agree with
Again he doesn't ask if you can explain evolution. If you read my prior posts I said it wouldn't even be discriminatory for him to mandate a test only on evolution and to mandate a grade of 100% on that test. This would be purely academic.
However asking philisophical questions, and demanding thought compliance isn't academic freedom, it is academic facism.
The professor did the wrong thing. He has a control freak attitude towards his students. No Person should give credit to a theory they do not truly adhear to.
[quote] The criteria the professor states, that no one objects to, is that you must have taken a class with the professor. You must have gotten an "A" from the professor. You must have gotten to know the professor during office hours.
All these relate to a letter or recommendation regarding academic ability. The last criteria doesn't. <hr></blockquote>
how do you write a letter of recommendation without the last part??? would this student accept a letter that stated..."so and so got an A in my class, other than that i really don't know this student." and that is the whole letter....and would the medical school accept that?? hell no...so the student would sue for that letter to....
you want to get into medical school, but can't sit down and discuss evolution with your professor?? medical school is gonna get a lot tougher than that...perhaps he should look into a different profession....g
The untold story here is just how STUPID it is for this professor ( a grown adult) I would think to require such an answer from his students. What the blankin hell is his problem?
either way, he is probably an ass, but so is the student...and you can't force a good letter of recommendation...you earn it...
sue the school for not taking other letters if you must, but again, you can not force a person to write a letter of recommendation, let alone a good letter of recommendation....g
[quote]Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook:
<strong>The untold story here is just how STUPID it is for this professor ( a grown adult) I would think to require such an answer from his students. What the blankin hell is his problem?
I will tell you.. He HATES God.
Fellowship</strong><hr></blockquote>
It's more likely that he doesn't believe in God at all, actually, and that it's creationism that he hates so much.
Unless he IS a Christian but believes that creationism is contrary to scripture (waters above, waters below and all that) and / or that it's a political postision he can't support. Or something.
See? There's two alternatives for you already, Fellowship.
Comments
again, scott, if you need/want a letter of recommendation, who do you ask? someone you disagree with or someone you agree with?
if you are black do you ask a KKK person for a recommendation?? if you are an aetheist do you as the priest?? if you are the born-again do you ask the communist?? if you are pro-choice do you ask randal terry??
the recommendation letter game has been played for years...you ask the people who will give you a good letter....g
<strong>I 100% guaranty had this student been told "no letters for blacks or Muslims or ...." the locals here would be histerical with anger. But because this prof found some scientific cover for his bigotry the locals here can brush it off comfortably.</strong><hr></blockquote>
There is no bigotry in his stance. There is no scientific basis for creationism so what sense does it make for him to endorce someone as a scientist when their beliefs conflict with his view of science?
Why even want a recommendation from him?
Maybe if he was a professor teaching 'Why Blacks and Muslims are inferior 101' at Bob Jones University you might be able to draw that parallel...
again...have you ever asked for a letter of recommendation??? who did you ask???
would OJ ask nicole's mom for one?
would groverat ask scott for one??
if you want to see hypocrisy....how about this:
most pro-life people are pro capital punishment and hawkish in terms of war...
most pro-choice people are anti-capital punishment and dovish in terms of war....now that makes no sense
sigh again....g
[ 02-21-2003: Message edited by: thegelding ]</p>
<strong>
Let me say this again: this prof is perfectly entitled to write or not write a recommendation for whatever reasons he wishes.
To which I add this: LETTERS OF RECOMMENDATION ARE INHERENTLY DISCRIMINITORY. That's what they do. They offer discriminating opinions about a student's strengths or weaknesses, and about a student's ability to succeed in a certain environment. This guy is attempting to save students some trouble by placing his politics right there up front.
And yet, this guy somehow missed it.
What, this kid couldn't take another biology class? This prof is the ONLY one in the entire bio department? He didn't know that this was the policy? I find that hard to believe. News travels fast on university campuses. The article made it sound as if he took this ONE guy specifically for the recommendation.
This sounds like it was little more than a plant of some kind...that this kid (who seemingly isn't very good at anything else in school, according to the letter) specifically took this guy in order to bring about a situation just like this.
Two things stick out:
1) The kid went STRAIGHT for the lawsuit, and there's no indication in the article that he even TALKED to the professor.
2) The kid transferred schools rather than simply take another class from another professor who doesn't have that same requirement.
3) This kid isn't being persecuted. The professor is. He had no "right" to a recommendation in the first place. Such things aren't guaranteed. The professor, however, has a right to write or not write a letter for whatever reasons he wishes, and it seems that you all would take that right away from him.
Cheers
Scott
[ 02-20-2003: Message edited by: midwinter ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
<a href="http://webapps.tosm.ttu.edu/techsis/coursesched/sched2.asp"; target="_blank">TTU class schedule</a>
Let me just say, I love the internet.
I can't say for sure that the schedule was the same when this guy tried to take the class. However it mentions in the article that the professor was named Dini. According to this schedule there are three classes of Biology II and all three sections are only taught by him.
So there really was likely no alternative to going through this professor. You ask why he didn't discuss it with the professor. This is from the professor's own website which the article mentioned has actually softened it's stance and changed his question wording in light of the pending lawsuit.
[quote] Criterion 3
If you set up an appointment to discuss the writing of a letter of recommendation, I will ask you: "How do you account for the scientific origin of the human species?" If you will not give a scientific answer to this question, then you should not seek my recommendation. <hr></blockquote>
Pretty cut and dried don't you think? The question before the lawsuit was simply, "How do you think the human species originated?"
It isn't whether we would take the ability to set and use criteria to give letters of recommendation out to students. It is just that the criteria cannot be discriminatory.
I have to do this myself as a landlord. You would think with your own personal property, you could use basically any criteria you want. However if I wouldn't rent to someone because they are unmarried and living together I would be sued. I am allowed to discriminate on smoking and pets. That is really it. Otherwise my criteria, based on income, credit score, and job history, must be applied fairly and equally to all.
The professor could easily make his criteria non-discriminatory. He could require everyone submit to taking an exam testing their knowledge about the theory of evolution and require 100% on it. That would not be saying, you must think as I think and believe as I believe.
Nick
nick, if you want a letter of recommendation from me you have to think (or pretend to think at least) like me...if you want my letter bad enough you will do it...if you don't, you won't....simple...it is the business world, the working world, the academic world, heck, even the religious world...they all work like that...we have protections that ensure that housing and food and such are equal to all (or most)....but in life you hang in a group that you get along with and agree with....would bush ask clinton for a letter of recommendation...and if so, would clinton have to give bush a good recommendation??? perhaps this professor should give out letters to everyone who asks, but for people who go to his class to learn from him, but then disagree with his teachings, perhaps he should just write, "student didn't seem to learn in my class"....there is a sparkling letter of recommendation that would get the kid into medical school...and would it be "discrimination" if he wrote a letter saying that? g
[ 02-21-2003: Message edited by: thegelding ]</p>
<strong>
There is no bigotry in his stance. There is no scientific basis for creationism so what sense does it make for him to endorce someone as a scientist when their beliefs conflict with his view of science?
Why even want a recommendation from him?
Maybe if he was a professor teaching 'Why Blacks and Muslims are inferior 101' at Bob Jones University you might be able to draw that parallel...</strong><hr></blockquote>
Why want it? Simple the application process for medical school requires the letter of recommendation. The only professor teaching that section of Biology was Dini and so Dino was the only guy who could give him the required letter. Dini did not do so based off of the students performance in the class or his willingness to come and meet during office hours. He did so by purposefully seeking out a philosphical position and applying a litmus test.
His own website states that evolution is fact and anyone who doesn't believe so wouldn't be a good doctor. He even goes so far as to state that they must believe in both micro and macroevolution.
Suppose the criteria were give a scientific basis to justify homosexuality.
Since homosexuality does not advance the "fittest" (since it doesn't promote procreation) it is hard to justify scientifically. I mean sure there is shoddy science unverified by second sources, but you can find that for practically any viewpoint.
The criteria should the professor to determine if the candidate deserves a favorable statement regarding their academic qualifications. It should not seek to dip into other areas because the letter itself does not concern other areas.
If I asked you for sex for a letter or recommendation, it would be harassment. If I asked you for cash it would be unethical. The letter concerns academic qualifications and that is what the criteria should address.
Nick
if the professor teaches evolution....and you sit through his class....and then say you don't believe in evolution, it would appear you did not learn his "teachings"...so why would he recommend you in a letter?
g
if the medical school will only accept letters of recommendation from certain people, perhaps the student should sue the medical school....i think a school should be forced to accept more sources for recommendation...not that more professors should be forced to write letters for students they don't agree with
[ 02-21-2003: Message edited by: thegelding ]</p>
This is a subject that will not go away. As you all know I opened a lively talk over the subject. There is no need for this guy to play these games with his students.
Fellowship
Let me add that this guy has just created a new Fellowship (a person who will defend creationism) by treating this student this way. Don't ask me how I am so sure about this. Hmmm did I have this kind of treatment in college? This is the problem I have with these people. Bring it on...
All you will do is create leaders in the field that stands 180 degrees from the trash you teach.
Bring it on.
Truth will not cave to TRASH
Hmmmmm
[ 02-21-2003: Message edited by: FellowshipChurch iBook ]</p>
<strong>not letting someone live in your rental property is not the same thing at all...a roof over your head vs a freakin letter....this young man could get a letter of recommendation from just about anybody...he asked this professor...professor sez no....does student ask another professor or his priest or his mom?? no, he sues...g
nick, if you want a letter of recommendation from me you have to think (or pretend to think at least) like me...if you want my letter bad enough you will do it...if you don't, you won't....simple...it is the business world, the working world, the academic world, heck, even the religious world...they all work like that...we have protections that ensure that housing and food and such are equal to all (or most)....but if life you hang in a group that you get along with and agree with....would bush ask clinton for a letter of recommendation...and if so, would clinton have to give bush a good recommendation??? perhaps this professor should give out letters to everyone, but for people who go to his class and learn from him, but then disagree with his teachings, perhaps he should just write, student didn't seem to learn in my class....there is a sparkling letter of recommendation that would get the kid into medical school...g
[ 02-21-2003: Message edited by: thegelding ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
First he couldn't get the letter from anyone. Dini was the only professor teaching that class. Secondly the letter is required for admission to medical school. It isn't just a letter as you contend. It determines his future, it isn't a junk mail offer for a credit card. I would consider that at least as important as a temporary roof over your head.
Likewise private property and the use of it is at least as well established as the right to religious and free speech. Yet we do have to curtail it for public interest. In this case we are talking about a public university. The professor and the university have a responsibility to insure that the public interest is served and that criteria for academic letters of recommendation are indeed academic.
You give strawmen (surprise there) and knock them down by using absurd criteria. Clinton wouldn't give Bush a recommendation because his criteria for giving a democratic recommendation would include being a democrat.
The criteria the professor states, that no one objects to, is that you must have taken a class with the professor. You must have gotten an "A" from the professor. You must have gotten to know the professor during office hours.
All these relate to a letter or recommendation regarding academic ability. The last criteria doesn't.
Please focus on the objectional about criteria, not on whether there can be criteria.
Nick
i guess i should expect this though...we constantly have medical students threatening to get lawyers if they get a freakin bad evaluation on a rotation at the hospital....you can't write, this person is lazy or stupid or whatnot...hell, if you don't say that so and so is the next coming of christ the freaking weenies threaten to sue...
FSCiB...if a satan worshipping child abuser asked you for a letter of reference (and you couldn't write a bad one), what would you do?? freedom....sweet freedom...freedom to believe what you want...freedom to attempt any profession you want...freedom to write letters if you want...freedom to refuse....land of the free baby....gotta love it...g
<strong>
if the professor teaches evolution....and you sit through his class....and then say you don't believe in evolution, it would appear you did not learn his "teachings"...so why would he recommend you in a letter?
g
if the medical school will only accept letters of recommendation from certain people, perhaps the student should sue the medical school....i think a school should be forced to accept more sources for recommendation...not that more professors should be forced to write letters for students they don't agree with
[ 02-21-2003: Message edited by: thegelding ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
Again he doesn't ask if you can explain evolution. If you read my prior posts I said it wouldn't even be discriminatory for him to mandate a test only on evolution and to mandate a grade of 100% on that test. This would be purely academic.
However asking philisophical questions, and demanding thought compliance isn't academic freedom, it is academic facism.
Nick
[ 02-21-2003: Message edited by: trumptman ]</p>
The professor did the wrong thing. He has a control freak attitude towards his students. No Person should give credit to a theory they do not truly adhear to.
PERIOD.
Fellowship
[quote] The criteria the professor states, that no one objects to, is that you must have taken a class with the professor. You must have gotten an "A" from the professor. You must have gotten to know the professor during office hours.
All these relate to a letter or recommendation regarding academic ability. The last criteria doesn't. <hr></blockquote>
how do you write a letter of recommendation without the last part??? would this student accept a letter that stated..."so and so got an A in my class, other than that i really don't know this student." and that is the whole letter....and would the medical school accept that?? hell no...so the student would sue for that letter to....
you want to get into medical school, but can't sit down and discuss evolution with your professor?? medical school is gonna get a lot tougher than that...perhaps he should look into a different profession....g
I will tell you.. He HATES God.
Fellowship
either way, he is probably an ass, but so is the student...and you can't force a good letter of recommendation...you earn it...
sue the school for not taking other letters if you must, but again, you can not force a person to write a letter of recommendation, let alone a good letter of recommendation....g
<strong>The untold story here is just how STUPID it is for this professor ( a grown adult) I would think to require such an answer from his students. What the blankin hell is his problem?
I will tell you.. He HATES God.
Fellowship</strong><hr></blockquote>
It's more likely that he doesn't believe in God at all, actually, and that it's creationism that he hates so much.
<strong>
It's more likely that he doesn't believe in God at all, actually, and that it's creationism that he hates so much.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Fair as it gets Hassan. He can have his ideas and his students can have theirs as well. Now is my cartoon so far off?
Tell me? Is my cartoon so far off I used to link to here?
Yes I take issue with this. Again I wonder why? ? ? did this happen to me? Hmmmmmmm
Fellowship
See? There's two alternatives for you already, Fellowship.