Dini, 48, ... Educated in Catholic schools, he joined a Catholic order of teaching brothers after high school and focused on biology and religious studies in college.
...
"I'm a Catholic Christian," said John C. Zak, chairman of Texas Tech's biology department. "In my mind, there is no incongruity between the scientific understanding of evolution versus the theological. They are just two different aspects of reality."
The student transferred to another school for biology courses to secure a reccommendation. He only wasted two classes, about 1 week, in the Texas Tech course before dropping it. It appears he wanted a reccommendation more than learning about biology to me.
Scott, you're a physics PHD right? I believe Young Earth Creationists state that various presumed constants of the universe are not constant, or at least challenge the efficacy of various methodology in physics; namely, radiometric dating methods. How would you feel if a student didn't believe those were true, and would you reccommend them for physic PHDs? Young Earth Creationist beliefs do not only touch biology, but also the whole swath of "hard" sciences (physics, chemistry, cosmology, et al) in order to justify a 6000 year old Earth.
India Tracy came to expect being sent to the principal's office even though she was a well-behaved, straight-A student.
...
India and her parents, Greg and Sarajane Tracy, allege other students taunted her, beat her and ridiculed her religion for years. Fed up with the treatment, her parents filed a federal lawsuit on her behalf Thursday.
...
The first time the Tracys declined to allow their daughter to attend the two-hour, fundamental Christian services held over three days was in 1999, when she was in the fourth grade. The family had bought 11 acres in Union County because they thought the area was beautiful.
"The principal had called me to the office because mine was the only slip that said no," said India, now 14. "He asked me why I didn't want to go. He asked my religion. I told him I didn't want to talk about it and for him to call my parents."
Sarajane Tracy told the principal that she also did not want to discuss religion because she didn't think it belonged in school, she said. The family could be anything - Buddhist, Jewish or Islamic - and it shouldn't matter, she said. The family follows the ancient religious tradition of Paganism, which embraces kinship with nature, positive morality and acknowledges both the female and male side of Deity, according to the Pagan Federation.
how do you write a letter of recommendation without the last part??? would this student accept a letter that stated..."so and so got an A in my class, other than that i really don't know this student." and that is the whole letter....and would the medical school accept that?? hell no...so the student would sue for that letter to....</strong><hr></blockquote>
Umm, the last part he was referring to was the whole eveloution, believe it lose the letter, part. That is not academic, it is thought control. I know the theory of evolution, maybe not to the degree of some others here, but I have read enough and heard enough to know it. That does not mean I believe it, nor should it. There is a theory that there is life on other planets too. People here know the curcumstances surrounding the theory. Some beleive, some do not. That does not make either unfit for something, neither does ones stand on evolution.
intelligent people can argue and discuss many subjects...on a debate team you are often giving a subject and the side you must debate from, whether you believe in that view point or not (it is actually a great way to learn different views...once again learn, not believe, not forced brainwashing)...
this professor can't make the students believe anything, but he can expect them to discuss and put forward the arguements for evolution...so you are telling me that this student couldn't sit down and discuss evolution with a professor without going, "that's wrong...that's false...that's a lie" ??? remember hospitals need people that can deal with almost any situation...doesn't look like this student can handle much....he will learn as he gets older though....g
anyway it is all moot...untill they pass that federal law making letters of recommendation a mandatory thing...
noahj:
The criteria the professor states, that no one objects to, is that you must have taken a class with the professor. You must have gotten an "A" from the professor. You must have gotten to know the professor during office hours.
All these relate to a letter or recommendation regarding academic ability. The last criteria doesn't.
the last criteria he is talking about is the "You must have gotten to know the professor during office hours"....it is the only way to give a letter of recommendation....sitting in a class isn't enough to know a student...
The criteria the professor states, that no one objects to, is that you must have taken a class with the professor. You must have gotten an "A" from the professor. You must have gotten to know the professor during office hours.
All these relate to a letter or recommendation regarding academic ability. The last criteria doesn't.
the last criteria he is talking about is the "You must have gotten to know the professor during office hours"....it is the only way to give a letter of recommendation....sitting in a class isn't enough to know a student...</strong><hr></blockquote>
Criterion 3
If you set up an appointment to discuss the writing of a letter of recommendation, I will ask you: "How do you account for the scientific origin of the human species?" If you will not give a scientific answer to this question, then you should not seek my recommendation.
All he wants to know if you believe in evolution or not. That is his main thrust. If you cannot give what he considers a scientific explanation for the origin of the species then you get no letter. This is not a get to know you better, this is a beleive what I beleive and show me you do session.
Professors can say "no" for whatever reason they want. Maybe it makes them a jerk sometimes but that's their right.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well if they say no because someone is black then that makes them a racist. IMO (and most other people's I'm sure) that person should not be in a position where the bigoted attitude impacts on students' lives.
[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>Pretty sad that you still think throwing the "n*gger" bomb out there will make your point for you. When your brain fails, be a drama queen!</strong><hr></blockquote>
Still a troll posing as a moderator <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[oyvey]" /> The "'n*gger' bomb" serves as a good litmus test for the numerous people in this thread (you are reading the thread and not just trolling?) that post that someone can chose not to write a letter for whatever "stupid" reason they want. So when the stupid reason is race where to people stand? I still can't get anyone to answer that question directly. Hyp....
Still a troll posing as a moderator <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[oyvey]" /> The "'n*gger' bomb" serves as a good litmus test for the numerous people in this thread (you are reading the thread and not just trolling?) that post that someone can chose not to write a letter for whatever "stupid" reason they want. So when the stupid reason is race where to people stand? I still can't get anyone to answer that question directly. Hyp....</strong><hr></blockquote>
You are conflating legal issues with non-legal issues. Were the professor refusing to pass the student in a class because he is a minority, the professor would have been infringing upon the student's right to fair treatment and reward for his work in the class. Universities have policies about things like this.
The point, though, is that the student has no legal right to a letter of recommendation. The professor has FULL DISCRETION in this issue, and can refuse to write a letter for whatever reason he chooses.
Scott, you're a physics PHD right? I believe Young Earth Creationists state that various presumed constants of the universe are not constant, or at least challenge the efficacy of various methodology in physics; namely, radiometric dating methods. How would you feel if a student didn't believe those were true, and would you reccommend them for physic PHDs? Young Earth Creationist beliefs do not only touch biology, but also the whole swath of "hard" sciences (physics, chemistry, cosmology, et al) in order to justify a 6000 year old Earth.
...</strong><hr></blockquote>
That's a different question. I would NEVER have some statement that a student must swear to to get a letter. In the end I may write a letter, show it to the student and ask if they want to sent or not. Given the situation you outlined above you can imagine it wouldn't be favorable. Anyone with such beliefs may have a hard time finding a dissertation topic that would have support of a department. But would I have that person swear that the earth it X years old or elseno letter ... no.
You are conflating legal issues with non-legal issues. Were the professor refusing to pass the student in a class because he is a minority, the professor would have been infringing upon the student's right to fair treatment and reward for his work in the class. Universities have policies about things like this.
The point, though, is that the student has no legal right to a letter of recommendation. The professor has FULL DISCRETION in this issue, and can refuse to write a letter for whatever reason he chooses.
Cheers
Scott</strong><hr></blockquote>
I reject the legal basis altogether. The law has nothing and should have nothing to do with this. The lawsuit is bogus and should be tossed out at the earliest opportunity.
Once again... If that reason is race where do you stand?
[quote] "How do you account for the scientific origin of the human species?" If you will not give a scientific answer to this question <hr></blockquote>
he is not asking the person what he believes...he is asking the person to debate the scientific origin of the human species from a scientific point of view...the student can debate the possiblity and the strength points of evolution without believing nor supporting them...this quote you give makes the professors point even stronger...thus, now the professor is no longer an ass in my eyes...just the student...if the professor teaches evolution and wants you to debate from a pro-evolution to see what you have learned in class, that is easily acceptable....
is the professor asking the student to swear on a bible that he believes in evolution???
By definition , letter of recommandations are not objective, its a friendly help coming from a professor who like you for whatever reason.
Objectivity is based upon exams and controls (with the inherent limitations of every system of exam to appreciate someone).
The only way to have objectives letters recommandations is too remove them. Forbidden recommandations is the only way to prevent injustice (for example no recommandation because the teacher hate black people for example).
Recommandations are a way to make an appreciation based upon others criteria than exams,; by definition these criteria are subjective and thus biased. If you forbidden letters of recomandations , you will promote a much more hypocrite type of recommandations : the oral ones. With oral recommmandations , your teacher will even be able to backstab you if he want.
I reject the legal basis altogether. The law has nothing and should have nothing to do with this. The lawsuit is bogus and should be tossed out at the earliest opportunity. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Then why are we even talking about this?
[quote]<strong>Once again... If that reason is race where do you stand?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Red herring. The issue is not race. Nor is it anything LIKE race. It's not even religious freedom.
Nevertheless, my position is the same. Professors have te freedom to refuse to write letters of rec for whatever reason they choose.
ps...if you sit in a biology class that teaches evolution for a whole semester, you should be able to argue the points that favor evolution, even if you don't believe them...it shows that you listened in class and that you learned....simple....it is what we need from our doctors...the ability to listen and learn and discuss from many viewpoints...keeping the beliefs you have is important too...i don't think this professor said you have to abandon your beliefs...but you should be able to learn from his class and apply that in talks with him...especially if you want a letter of recommendation....g
he is not asking the person what he believes...he is asking the person to debate the scientific origin of the human species from a scientific point of view...the student can debate the possiblity and the strength points of evolution without believing nor supporting them...this quote you give makes the professors point even stronger...thus, now the professor is no longer an ass in my eyes...just the student...if the professor teaches evolution and wants you to debate from a pro-evolution to see what you have learned in class, that is easily acceptable....
is the professor asking the student to swear on a bible that he believes in evolution???
g</strong><hr></blockquote>
He is not asking, "What are the theories that account for the scientific origin of the human species?"
He is asking a more leading question that implies personal belief of, "How do you account for the scientific origin of the human species?"
[quote] He is asking a more leading question that implies personal belief of, "How do you account for the scientific origin of the human species?" <hr></blockquote>
or: after taking my class and listening and learning about evolution and biology i would like to know, again based on my class, how do you account for the scientific origin of the human species?"
it is not questioning anyones faith... just asking how did the class present information and how did you process that information...things this young man will need to be able to do if he wants to make it through medical school...
that poor child in the school being beat up has it so much worse than this little boy wanting/demanding his letter of recommendation...
or: after taking my class and listening and learning about evolution and biology i would like to know, again based on my class, how do you account for the scientific origin of the human species?"</strong><hr></blockquote>
Sorry, you are adding in words that changes the meaning. Without the first portion, and arguably even with the first portion he is asking for the persons belief.
Let's assume you took a course from FCiB on creationism. He gave his scientific and religious information regarding creationism and why it is th truth. You fully understand his view and lets assume you disagree and believe that evolution is still the truth. When the class is over you go to ask him for a letter of recommendation and in order to get said letter he asked you "how do you account for the scientific origin of the human species?" Are you going to answer in the frame of his class or are you going to answer in your own personal perspective?
Sorry, you are adding in words that changes the meaning. Without the first portion, and arguably even with the first portion he is asking for the persons belief.
Let's assume you took a course from FCiB on creationism. He gave his scientific and religious information regarding creationism and why it is th truth. You fully understand his view and lets assume you disagree and believe that evolution is still the truth. When the class is over you go to ask him for a letter of recommendation and in order to get said letter he asked you "how do you account for the scientific origin of the human species?" Are you going to answer in the frame of his class or are you going to answer in your own personal perspective?</strong><hr></blockquote>
I remember a professor in Orthopedic surgery who was for the plate in traumatologia opposed to the nail. I doubt that he will have recommanded you if you said to him that you prefer the nail instead the plate.
He defend a way of thinking, if you think the contrary don't wait a letter of recommandation from him.
[quote] Are you going to answer in the frame of his class or are you going to answer in your own personal perspective? <hr></blockquote>
thankfully the professor already told you how to frame your answer...if i took a class on creationism from FSCiB and he let me know that in order to get a letter of recommendation about his class i had to answer in the frame of his class...that is exactly what i would do...learning is fun.....i would enjoy FSCiB's class, i would answer from what i learned in his class and then i would go right on believing in evolution....with a nice letter of recommendation in my pocket and a wonderfully clear conscious.... g
I would NEVER have some statement that a student must swear to to get a letter.</strong>
I'll grant that the TT professor was not tactful, and shouldn't be setting up criteria in public as such.
<strong>In the end I may write a letter, show it to the student and ask if they want to sent or not. Given the situation you outlined above you can imagine it wouldn't be favorable. Anyone with such beliefs may have a hard time finding a dissertation topic that would have support of a department.</strong>
What if the student was able to recite, and do the math on, all the physics methodology correctly, yet still rejected it? (Actually, easy to do with the vagaries of the human psyche, no?)
How can a professor in their right mind recommend a student for professional education (MD, PHD, Masters, whatever) in a related field who does not believe in the foundations of their own field? Would you ever recommend a Young Earth Creationist for a physic PHD in any situation? (There can only be one situation, and said student better have the model and evidence to defend it.)
This is why your racism analogy doesn't fit. Skin color has nothing to do with a recommendation from a biology professor or knowledge of biology. Asking for a recommendation from a biology professor while rejecting one of biology's fundamental models is asking for trouble to say the least. I would be interested to hear the biology professor that gave the student a recommendation explain why a recommendation was given.
Sigh. You're not reading either. <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" /> In the tread I'm reading people say that a prof can deny a letter for any reason. My question to challenge that is, does that include race? I'm sure most people would say no had they not painted themselves into a corner already and were too pigheaded to admit they were wrong.
letter of recommendation is not a right....yes any reason the person wants...if it is because of race then the person is a bastard...but the world is full of bastards....can't sue the man for not writing a letter...sue the school for only accepting one person for a letter (if that is true)...this is the real world honey...suck up to the professor...if that don't work, suck up to a different professor....
the world isn't full of assholes, it just feels that way somedays...you can always find someone to write a letter of recommendation...if you want it from just one person, you better be prepared to win over that person....
how do we not know that this students isn't a full blown prick and doesn't deserve a letter anyway...did he sit down and talk with the professor?? or did he just say, i can't discuss evolution other than to say i don't believe in it??
i don't believe in god, but i can talk about god all day long if i needed to...it is even fun to discuss religion...i could spend hours discuss why there must be a god...and then spend hours discussing why there can't be a god....a good student who really wanted that letter could do that without "sacrificing his principles"
Comments
Dini, 48, ... Educated in Catholic schools, he joined a Catholic order of teaching brothers after high school and focused on biology and religious studies in college.
...
"I'm a Catholic Christian," said John C. Zak, chairman of Texas Tech's biology department. "In my mind, there is no incongruity between the scientific understanding of evolution versus the theological. They are just two different aspects of reality."
The student transferred to another school for biology courses to secure a reccommendation. He only wasted two classes, about 1 week, in the Texas Tech course before dropping it. It appears he wanted a reccommendation more than learning about biology to me.
Scott, you're a physics PHD right? I believe Young Earth Creationists state that various presumed constants of the universe are not constant, or at least challenge the efficacy of various methodology in physics; namely, radiometric dating methods. How would you feel if a student didn't believe those were true, and would you reccommend them for physic PHDs? Young Earth Creationist beliefs do not only touch biology, but also the whole swath of "hard" sciences (physics, chemistry, cosmology, et al) in order to justify a 6000 year old Earth.
Hehe, how about this for religious freedom:
<a href="http://www.knoxnews.com/kns/local_news/article/0,1406,KNS_347_1744221,00.html"; target="_blank">Union schools hit with religion-related lawsuit</a>
Action claims student was beaten, harassed for being different
By JENNIFER LAWSON, [email protected]
February 14, 2003
India Tracy came to expect being sent to the principal's office even though she was a well-behaved, straight-A student.
...
India and her parents, Greg and Sarajane Tracy, allege other students taunted her, beat her and ridiculed her religion for years. Fed up with the treatment, her parents filed a federal lawsuit on her behalf Thursday.
...
The first time the Tracys declined to allow their daughter to attend the two-hour, fundamental Christian services held over three days was in 1999, when she was in the fourth grade. The family had bought 11 acres in Union County because they thought the area was beautiful.
"The principal had called me to the office because mine was the only slip that said no," said India, now 14. "He asked me why I didn't want to go. He asked my religion. I told him I didn't want to talk about it and for him to call my parents."
Sarajane Tracy told the principal that she also did not want to discuss religion because she didn't think it belonged in school, she said. The family could be anything - Buddhist, Jewish or Islamic - and it shouldn't matter, she said. The family follows the ancient religious tradition of Paganism, which embraces kinship with nature, positive morality and acknowledges both the female and male side of Deity, according to the Pagan Federation.
<strong>nick:
how do you write a letter of recommendation without the last part??? would this student accept a letter that stated..."so and so got an A in my class, other than that i really don't know this student." and that is the whole letter....and would the medical school accept that?? hell no...so the student would sue for that letter to....</strong><hr></blockquote>
Umm, the last part he was referring to was the whole eveloution, believe it lose the letter, part. That is not academic, it is thought control. I know the theory of evolution, maybe not to the degree of some others here, but I have read enough and heard enough to know it. That does not mean I believe it, nor should it. There is a theory that there is life on other planets too. People here know the curcumstances surrounding the theory. Some beleive, some do not. That does not make either unfit for something, neither does ones stand on evolution.
this professor can't make the students believe anything, but he can expect them to discuss and put forward the arguements for evolution...so you are telling me that this student couldn't sit down and discuss evolution with a professor without going, "that's wrong...that's false...that's a lie" ??? remember hospitals need people that can deal with almost any situation...doesn't look like this student can handle much....he will learn as he gets older though....g
anyway it is all moot...untill they pass that federal law making letters of recommendation a mandatory thing...
noahj:
The criteria the professor states, that no one objects to, is that you must have taken a class with the professor. You must have gotten an "A" from the professor. You must have gotten to know the professor during office hours.
All these relate to a letter or recommendation regarding academic ability. The last criteria doesn't.
the last criteria he is talking about is the "You must have gotten to know the professor during office hours"....it is the only way to give a letter of recommendation....sitting in a class isn't enough to know a student...
[ 02-21-2003: Message edited by: thegelding ]</p>
<strong>
noahj:
The criteria the professor states, that no one objects to, is that you must have taken a class with the professor. You must have gotten an "A" from the professor. You must have gotten to know the professor during office hours.
All these relate to a letter or recommendation regarding academic ability. The last criteria doesn't.
the last criteria he is talking about is the "You must have gotten to know the professor during office hours"....it is the only way to give a letter of recommendation....sitting in a class isn't enough to know a student...</strong><hr></blockquote>
Criterion 3
If you set up an appointment to discuss the writing of a letter of recommendation, I will ask you: "How do you account for the scientific origin of the human species?" If you will not give a scientific answer to this question, then you should not seek my recommendation.
All he wants to know if you believe in evolution or not. That is his main thrust. If you cannot give what he considers a scientific explanation for the origin of the species then you get no letter. This is not a get to know you better, this is a beleive what I beleive and show me you do session.
<strong>What hypocrisy?
Professors can say "no" for whatever reason they want. Maybe it makes them a jerk sometimes but that's their right.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well if they say no because someone is black then that makes them a racist. IMO (and most other people's I'm sure) that person should not be in a position where the bigoted attitude impacts on students' lives.
[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>Pretty sad that you still think throwing the "n*gger" bomb out there will make your point for you. When your brain fails, be a drama queen!</strong><hr></blockquote>
Still a troll posing as a moderator <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[oyvey]" /> The "'n*gger' bomb" serves as a good litmus test for the numerous people in this thread (you are reading the thread and not just trolling?) that post that someone can chose not to write a letter for whatever "stupid" reason they want. So when the stupid reason is race where to people stand? I still can't get anyone to answer that question directly. Hyp....
<strong>
Still a troll posing as a moderator <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[oyvey]" /> The "'n*gger' bomb" serves as a good litmus test for the numerous people in this thread (you are reading the thread and not just trolling?) that post that someone can chose not to write a letter for whatever "stupid" reason they want. So when the stupid reason is race where to people stand? I still can't get anyone to answer that question directly. Hyp....</strong><hr></blockquote>
You are conflating legal issues with non-legal issues. Were the professor refusing to pass the student in a class because he is a minority, the professor would have been infringing upon the student's right to fair treatment and reward for his work in the class. Universities have policies about things like this.
The point, though, is that the student has no legal right to a letter of recommendation. The professor has FULL DISCRETION in this issue, and can refuse to write a letter for whatever reason he chooses.
Cheers
Scott
<strong>...
Scott, you're a physics PHD right? I believe Young Earth Creationists state that various presumed constants of the universe are not constant, or at least challenge the efficacy of various methodology in physics; namely, radiometric dating methods. How would you feel if a student didn't believe those were true, and would you reccommend them for physic PHDs? Young Earth Creationist beliefs do not only touch biology, but also the whole swath of "hard" sciences (physics, chemistry, cosmology, et al) in order to justify a 6000 year old Earth.
...</strong><hr></blockquote>
That's a different question. I would NEVER have some statement that a student must swear to to get a letter. In the end I may write a letter, show it to the student and ask if they want to sent or not. Given the situation you outlined above you can imagine it wouldn't be favorable. Anyone with such beliefs may have a hard time finding a dissertation topic that would have support of a department. But would I have that person swear that the earth it X years old or elseno letter ... no.
<strong>
You are conflating legal issues with non-legal issues. Were the professor refusing to pass the student in a class because he is a minority, the professor would have been infringing upon the student's right to fair treatment and reward for his work in the class. Universities have policies about things like this.
The point, though, is that the student has no legal right to a letter of recommendation. The professor has FULL DISCRETION in this issue, and can refuse to write a letter for whatever reason he chooses.
Cheers
Scott</strong><hr></blockquote>
I reject the legal basis altogether. The law has nothing and should have nothing to do with this. The lawsuit is bogus and should be tossed out at the earliest opportunity.
Once again... If that reason is race where do you stand?
he is not asking the person what he believes...he is asking the person to debate the scientific origin of the human species from a scientific point of view...the student can debate the possiblity and the strength points of evolution without believing nor supporting them...this quote you give makes the professors point even stronger...thus, now the professor is no longer an ass in my eyes...just the student...if the professor teaches evolution and wants you to debate from a pro-evolution to see what you have learned in class, that is easily acceptable....
is the professor asking the student to swear on a bible that he believes in evolution???
g
Objectivity is based upon exams and controls (with the inherent limitations of every system of exam to appreciate someone).
The only way to have objectives letters recommandations is too remove them. Forbidden recommandations is the only way to prevent injustice (for example no recommandation because the teacher hate black people for example).
Recommandations are a way to make an appreciation based upon others criteria than exams,; by definition these criteria are subjective and thus biased. If you forbidden letters of recomandations , you will promote a much more hypocrite type of recommandations : the oral ones. With oral recommmandations , your teacher will even be able to backstab you if he want.
<strong>
I reject the legal basis altogether. The law has nothing and should have nothing to do with this. The lawsuit is bogus and should be tossed out at the earliest opportunity. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Then why are we even talking about this?
[quote]<strong>Once again... If that reason is race where do you stand?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Red herring. The issue is not race. Nor is it anything LIKE race. It's not even religious freedom.
Nevertheless, my position is the same. Professors have te freedom to refuse to write letters of rec for whatever reason they choose.
Cheers
Scott
<strong>
he is not asking the person what he believes...he is asking the person to debate the scientific origin of the human species from a scientific point of view...the student can debate the possiblity and the strength points of evolution without believing nor supporting them...this quote you give makes the professors point even stronger...thus, now the professor is no longer an ass in my eyes...just the student...if the professor teaches evolution and wants you to debate from a pro-evolution to see what you have learned in class, that is easily acceptable....
is the professor asking the student to swear on a bible that he believes in evolution???
g</strong><hr></blockquote>
He is not asking, "What are the theories that account for the scientific origin of the human species?"
He is asking a more leading question that implies personal belief of, "How do you account for the scientific origin of the human species?"
or: after taking my class and listening and learning about evolution and biology i would like to know, again based on my class, how do you account for the scientific origin of the human species?"
it is not questioning anyones faith... just asking how did the class present information and how did you process that information...things this young man will need to be able to do if he wants to make it through medical school...
that poor child in the school being beat up has it so much worse than this little boy wanting/demanding his letter of recommendation...
g
<strong>
or: after taking my class and listening and learning about evolution and biology i would like to know, again based on my class, how do you account for the scientific origin of the human species?"</strong><hr></blockquote>
Sorry, you are adding in words that changes the meaning. Without the first portion, and arguably even with the first portion he is asking for the persons belief.
Let's assume you took a course from FCiB on creationism. He gave his scientific and religious information regarding creationism and why it is th truth. You fully understand his view and lets assume you disagree and believe that evolution is still the truth. When the class is over you go to ask him for a letter of recommendation and in order to get said letter he asked you "how do you account for the scientific origin of the human species?" Are you going to answer in the frame of his class or are you going to answer in your own personal perspective?
<strong>
Sorry, you are adding in words that changes the meaning. Without the first portion, and arguably even with the first portion he is asking for the persons belief.
Let's assume you took a course from FCiB on creationism. He gave his scientific and religious information regarding creationism and why it is th truth. You fully understand his view and lets assume you disagree and believe that evolution is still the truth. When the class is over you go to ask him for a letter of recommendation and in order to get said letter he asked you "how do you account for the scientific origin of the human species?" Are you going to answer in the frame of his class or are you going to answer in your own personal perspective?</strong><hr></blockquote>
I remember a professor in Orthopedic surgery who was for the plate in traumatologia opposed to the nail. I doubt that he will have recommanded you if you said to him that you prefer the nail instead the plate.
He defend a way of thinking, if you think the contrary don't wait a letter of recommandation from him.
On a silly side note , i am for the nail
thankfully the professor already told you how to frame your answer...if i took a class on creationism from FSCiB and he let me know that in order to get a letter of recommendation about his class i had to answer in the frame of his class...that is exactly what i would do...learning is fun.....i would enjoy FSCiB's class, i would answer from what i learned in his class and then i would go right on believing in evolution....with a nice letter of recommendation in my pocket and a wonderfully clear conscious....
I would NEVER have some statement that a student must swear to to get a letter.</strong>
I'll grant that the TT professor was not tactful, and shouldn't be setting up criteria in public as such.
<strong>In the end I may write a letter, show it to the student and ask if they want to sent or not. Given the situation you outlined above you can imagine it wouldn't be favorable. Anyone with such beliefs may have a hard time finding a dissertation topic that would have support of a department.</strong>
What if the student was able to recite, and do the math on, all the physics methodology correctly, yet still rejected it? (Actually, easy to do with the vagaries of the human psyche, no?)
How can a professor in their right mind recommend a student for professional education (MD, PHD, Masters, whatever) in a related field who does not believe in the foundations of their own field? Would you ever recommend a Young Earth Creationist for a physic PHD in any situation? (There can only be one situation, and said student better have the model and evidence to defend it.)
This is why your racism analogy doesn't fit. Skin color has nothing to do with a recommendation from a biology professor or knowledge of biology. Asking for a recommendation from a biology professor while rejecting one of biology's fundamental models is asking for trouble to say the least. I would be interested to hear the biology professor that gave the student a recommendation explain why a recommendation was given.
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This is why your racism analogy doesn't fit.
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Sigh. You're not reading either. <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" /> In the tread I'm reading people say that a prof can deny a letter for any reason. My question to challenge that is, does that include race? I'm sure most people would say no had they not painted themselves into a corner already and were too pigheaded to admit they were wrong.
the world isn't full of assholes, it just feels that way somedays...you can always find someone to write a letter of recommendation...if you want it from just one person, you better be prepared to win over that person....
how do we not know that this students isn't a full blown prick and doesn't deserve a letter anyway...did he sit down and talk with the professor?? or did he just say, i can't discuss evolution other than to say i don't believe in it??
i don't believe in god, but i can talk about god all day long if i needed to...it is even fun to discuss religion...i could spend hours discuss why there must be a god...and then spend hours discussing why there can't be a god....a good student who really wanted that letter could do that without "sacrificing his principles"
g
i like my painted in corner
[ 02-22-2003: Message edited by: thegelding ]</p>