Apple still pushing for $1.5 trillion US overseas profit tax holiday

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  • Reply 41 of 161
    d-ranged-range Posts: 396member
    While I really like Apple products and will happily spend my hard-earned money to buy them, I find the whole idea of these 'tax holidays' repulsive, the name alone already makes me really angry. It's stuff like this that is making peoples lives miserable in the US, every dollar of profit that goes untaxed because of bullshit tax hikes like this will either be taken from taxpayers wallets, or simply further erode fundamental provisions like health care and education.



    Reading stuff like this makes me happy I live in Europe. Sure we pay relatively high taxes, but at least everybody pays, including the megacorporations, and at least we can provide everyone, including the less fortunate, with proper health care, education, child care, etc.



    I don't want to sound like everything is perfect over here, and wrong in the US, but come on, how can anyone in their right mind support tax hikes for megacorporations like Apple, who have $70 billion in the bank and are basically printing money, while there are millions of americans who basically have no access to the health care they need, will never be able to go to college or university, or have to work 2 full-time jobs just to be able to stay alive.
  • Reply 42 of 161
    cameronjcameronj Posts: 2,357member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by d-range View Post


    Reading stuff like this makes me happy I live in Europe. Sure we pay relatively high taxes, but at least everybody pays, including the megacorporations, and at least we can provide everyone, including the less fortunate, with proper health care, education, child care, etc.



    Give me a break! I dont know where youŕe getting that, but check out Italy sometime ok?
  • Reply 43 of 161
    jmmxjmmx Posts: 341member
    Isn't full corporate tax rate 30% ?



    Give a break to 18% - take it or leave it.



    The corporations are already making high profits and where are the jobs? Nowhere to be seen.



    Couple it with an increase in the regular tax rate.



    (Disclosure: long Apple)
  • Reply 44 of 161
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 23,506member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    1) I am an Apple shareholder again. I bought in pretty much at the low point. Saved myself about 45/share.



    2) I see no benefit with the money staying overseas. If money comes back to the US to be spent in the US many of the good purchase with said funds could be taxed. As of right now zero of it is being used and the government can't force a company to bring it back.



    So what is the public benefit if Apple (for instance) is permitted to bring home the bacon at a minimal tax rate? Are you buying the argument that it's all about new jobs (as in employment)? I'm truly curious about your reasoning.



    Eventually Apple will be forced to bring some of that home to advance their business plans anyway in all likelihood, and at the current tax rates rather than the laughable 5% they suggest. IMO this is simply another scheme by the rich to get richer and avoid their responsibilities to the country that enabled them, leaving the heavy pulling to the unappreciated tens of millions "common folk".
  • Reply 45 of 161
    d-ranged-range Posts: 396member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by cameronj View Post


    Give me a break! I dont know where youŕe getting that, but check out Italy sometime ok?



    I'm not from Italy, and I didn't state that everybody pays the same. Just stating the extremely obvious and apparent fact that in most of the European countries that have an economy that's at least somewhat solid, there are no crazy tax breaks for megacorporations, and it seems to be working out very well for everyone living in said countries.



    If you are bringing up Italy as an example of a European country that does have tax hikes for big companies, you are only confirming what I'm saying, seeing the sorry state that Italy is in right now, financially.
  • Reply 46 of 161
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post


    So what is the public benefit if Apple (for instance) is permitted to bring home the bacon at a minimal tax rate? Are you buying the argument that it's all about new jobs (as in employment)? I'm truly curious about your reasoning.



    Eventually Apple will be forced to bring some of that home to advance their business plans anyway in all likelihood, and at the current tax rates rather than the laughable 5% they suggest. IMO this is simply another scheme by the rich to get richer and avoid their responsibilities to the country that enabled them, leaving the heavy pulling to the unappreciated tens of millions "common folk".



    1) Yes, it's about the rich wanting to stay richer. All for-profit companies should be trying to legally maximize their holdings.



    2) It's about a specific benefit for bringing the money back, it's about the fact there is no benefit for not bringing the money back.



    3) Apple makes billions in profit quarter in US sales alone so there is little chance they will have to bring the money back to cover expenses. Maybe that new HQ or data center would have been built years ago had they been able to bring back their money to the states.



    4) Remember this is a global economy. Unless you are suggesting the US government should actively and violently force these companies to bring the money back to the US there is little reason to expect them to when there is no incentive. Waiting for these global conglomerates to falter miserably in the US thus forcing the monies to come back at a higher tax then you've already lost because by that time the US will be so destitute that they probably have other markets to focus on.
  • Reply 47 of 161
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by huntercr View Post


    That's not the point. The point is the government is closing the loop on that 0%.. meaning all that money will be taxed at the normal 15 - 35% for business income.

    The lobbyists are saying they need a year of 5% taxes and pledging to use the extra money they'd receive in profits to "stimulate jobs"

    They're begging "please please don't make me pay taxes on the money I purposely kept out of the country to try and avoid paying taxes on.... pretty please?"

    Senator Bernie Sander's list of top 10 companies who are cheating and avoiding income tax:

    ---

    1) ExxonMobil made $19 billion in profits in 2009. Exxon not only paid no federal income taxes, it actually received a $156 million rebate from the IRS, according to its SEC filings.

    2) Bank of America received a $1.9 billion tax refund from the IRS last year, although it made $4.4 billion in profits and received a bailout from the Federal Reserve and the Treasury Department of nearly $1 trillion.

    3) Over the past five years, while General Electric made $26 billion in profits in the United States, it received a $4.1 billion refund from the IRS.

    4) Chevron received a $19 million refund from the IRS last year after it made $10 billion in profits in 2009.

    5) Boeing, which received a $30 billion contract from the Pentagon to build 179 airborne tankers, got a $124 million refund from the IRS last year.

    6) Valero Energy, the 25th largest company in America with $68 billion in sales last year received a $157 million tax refund check from the IRS and, over the past three years, it received a $134 million tax break from the oil and gas manufacturing tax deduction.

    7) Goldman Sachs in 2008 only paid 1.1 percent of its income in taxes even though it earned a profit of $2.3 billion and received an almost $800 billion from the Federal Reserve and U.S. Treasury Department.

    8) Citigroup last year made more than $4 billion in profits but paid no federal income taxes. It received a $2.5 trillion bailout from the Federal Reserve and U.S. Treasury.

    9) ConocoPhillips, the fifth largest oil company in the United States, made $16 billion in profits from 2007 through 2009, but received $451 million in tax breaks through the oil and gas manufacturing deduction.

    10) Over the past five years, Carnival Cruise Lines made more than $11 billion in profits, but its federal income tax rate during those years was just 1.1 percent.



    Is that all funds overseas are taxed by the countries they were generated in at whatever tax rate that country stipulates, period. By transferring money from overseas into the US the companies requesting the tax holiday are trying to reduce the impact of double-taxation - where the US government would again tax that money as it comes into the US - even though the companies have already been taxed overseas. But the good Senator doesn't want to go into that - all he sees is money for pork-barrel projects for his district.



    Note that they aren't trying to get off scot-free, they are putting a 5% rate on the table to pay into the tax system. If the money stays overseas - how will it benefit the US economy? Obviously it won't. If it it heavily taxed AGAIN coming into the US all you are doing is feeding the most rapacious and ineffectual programs management system in the world - the US government. And reducing the income that these companies have to use to bolster the US economy.



    If you make the US economy hostile to large companies they will take their operations elsewhere (moreso than even now) and simply treat the US economy as a market instead of home - which means they bleed even more money out of the US and into overseas economies.



    If you don't like the culture of large corporations you need to build strong supports for small to medium-sized businesses to grow and be successful. But our culture doesn't support that from a consumer perspective. And we elect into office those that continue to take payoffs from large corporations to support that culture.



    The future is always in the hands of the voters - take a close look at what happened in Iceland. You will have a hard time perhaps because the EU is trying to silence that revolution, but dig a bit. No one will change things for you. Too many are too comfortable with the status quo (and that's everyone from both sides of the political aisle) to make any effort to change.
  • Reply 48 of 161
    Unfortunately, I don't see Apple using any money from a tax holiday to open any manufacturing plants in the US. Any US expansion (new retail stores, new corporate office "spaceship") will be done anyway with their US earnings.



    If Apple (or any company) could show how they wanted to use any "tax holiday" money to generate new jobs, I would be more positive about this.



    How about an alternative that allows a company like Apple to have their foreign profits taxed in the US at a rate slightly lower than what they would have paid in the foregin country? I don't know how the corporate tax rules work.... If they have a choice of paying taxes overseas or in the US, make it advantageous to pay them in the US. Any tax earned is better than $0, right?
  • Reply 49 of 161
    This is link bait considering Apple is among a dozen or more major companies pushing for it, and the article suggests that only a few other companies are supporting it. In checking Reuters, I'm seeing a long list and the title is, "Factbox: WIN America members include Microsoft, others." How did you manage to miss Microsoft and make it and make it Apple centric?
  • Reply 50 of 161
    A quick Google search reveals Apple employed 17000 in 2006, 32000 in 2008 and 47000 in 2010. This is an example of corporate success resulting in jobs. This doesn't even begin to take into account the countless jobs that would have been created at all of Apple's various vendors.
  • Reply 51 of 161
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by studiomusic View Post


    What's 5% of $1.5 trillion?

    Much better than 0% of $1.5 trillion.



    The correct answer is that the government needs to close this loophole that allows corporations to keep money offshore and avoid taxes. This is Criminal!!! Although I do agree that we should probably lower our tax rate to @28% closer to most industrialized countries.



    Apple can bring the money in today tax free. How about paying their lower tiered employees a living wage. In Los Angeles they pay @$12/hour - can't survive on that. If they really want to stimulate the economy bring 10 billion in and immediately give those employees a raise - the offsetting business expense means 0% tax!. All of those employees will spend every dime which will absolutely stimulate the economy. Don't need any bills from congress to do this and don't have to rely on the "good faith" of the company or their "conscience" to do whats right for the country -- we are in the problem we are today because of unbridled greed from corporations - don't be a Charlie Brown.
  • Reply 52 of 161
    As has already been stated this was done before and proved to do nothing for stimulating anything except the pockets of the already well to do. The same thing will happen again I'm pretty sure. I'm fairly convinced, although Warren gives me some hope, that the people who really have the means to turn life around for a lot of people will not, and will continue to hoard their stockpiles of cash and let this country, the very country that got them where they are, crumble.



    Although putting another $75 Billion dollars in taxes to use MAY be helpful, it will likely just get wasted like other billions of dollars wasted every year to run studies like how people who suffer from depression (no offense if you do) are less productive. You don't say? Or to fund wars. Or to pay refunds to companies who don't pay a dime in taxes.
  • Reply 53 of 161
    asciiascii Posts: 5,936member
    If the money was already taxed in the country it was earned I don't think it should be taxed again upon repatriation. As rjohnston said, this is double taxation.



    I see where the politicians are coming from with their economics. Investment must always precede job creation (before someone can get a job somewhere, that place has to be built). But they are wrong that the current lack of investment is caused by lack of money. My understanding is there is already trillions of dollars of capital in the US, sitting on the sidelines not being invested. There are other reasons people aren't investing. This probably will not create any new jobs.
  • Reply 54 of 161
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sf_dude View Post


    yeah right... give the rich even more tax breaks.. peachy.

    so apple can invest in more factories in China to make products for sale guess where? IN CHINA. You get the idea who benefits from this.



    You are missing the point. Apple doesn't need a tax holiday if they want to invest in China because the money is ALREADY overseas.



    Right now Apple is being FORCED to invest their money in China and other countries because they cannot bring the money to the US or spend it in the US without getting taxed extra.



    So effectively, by having this tax in place the government is saying "we want you to invest in foreign countries and not in the US"



    Do you get it now?



    And let's not talk about how much money the government is "losing" by getting 5% versus their usual rate. You cannot lose what you don't have, and if these companies don't get the 5% then the US government gets 0%. So the more valid point would be that the government is losing billions of dollars by not cutting the rate, since they are effectively getting $0 at the current rate.





    Quote:

    As has already been stated this was done before and proved to do nothing for stimulating anything except the pockets of the already well to do.



    And what do you think they did with the money? They invest, buy things, etc. Even just keeping it in a CD's or other investment instruments, the money is used to stimulate the economy (when you put your money in a CD, that money is invested into new businesses and ideas and your interest paid from the dividends of those investments).



    They don't stash it in a vault where it sits idly by. The point is that money now circulates in the US economy versus foreign economies.
  • Reply 55 of 161
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bad_ika View Post


    Think different. Compel repatriation and tax it at 70% at threat of imprisonment for all senior executives.



    Harsh, but Hell Yeah!
  • Reply 56 of 161
    frankiefrankie Posts: 380member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bad_ika View Post


    Think different. Compel repatriation and tax it at 70% at threat of imprisonment for all senior executives.



    Couldn't agree more.
  • Reply 57 of 161
    asciiascii Posts: 5,936member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Conscript View Post


    They don't stash it in a vault where it sits idly by. The point is that money now circulates in the US economy versus foreign economies.



    Not necessarily. They might put it in the bank and then the bank invests it overseas.



    If a country is not a good place to invest in, simply encouraging more money to come in won't do anything. The money will just run away again...



    To increase investment in a country, there is no getting around the basic need to make that place business friendly. No Financial Trick will substitute for that.
  • Reply 58 of 161
    ktappektappe Posts: 808member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    3) Apple makes billions in profit quarter in US sales alone so there is little chance they will have to bring the money back to cover expenses. Maybe that new HQ or data center would have been built years ago had they been able to bring back their money to the states.



    Please stop just making things up off the top of your head. The holdup for Apple's new HQ, given that they have $76 billion in cash, has obviously not been money. The holdup, if you had been reading this very site, has been Cupertino planning commission and also obtaining the land from the previous owners.



    Please stop grasping at finding a defense for corporations not paying their fair share. And stop with the passive trolling. I know it's how you get your posting #'s into the thousands, but it's not constructive. Please, just stop.
  • Reply 59 of 161
    That may be true ascii, but the bank also creates jobs for auditors, investment bankers, etc.



    And lets keep in mind that would be assuming the entire amount is just stashed in a bank. Most companies have pretty diversified portfolios, some of that money would certainly go toward investments in equipment, jobs etc. or at least be used to pay down debts (which improves the long term viability of many companies that may be teetering on the brink of insolvency).



    I think no matter how the money is used, its always better for it come back and touch something here, even if some of it ends up going out again than to just stay abroad 100% of the time.
  • Reply 60 of 161
    kpluckkpluck Posts: 500member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Habañero View Post


    It didn't work in 2004. Why would it work now?



    That web site is written for, and by, idiots.



    -kpluck
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