Apple still pushing for $1.5 trillion US overseas profit tax holiday



  • Reply 141 of 161
    wigginwiggin Posts: 2,265member
    Originally Posted by SiMBa37 View Post

    There are many polls that show >80% of americans are in favor of a removal of tax breaks for the rich. Unfortunately our politicians dont serve the people, they serve the corporations, so its a mute point.

    Doesn't stop John "the tan man" Boener from constantly invoking the "will of the American people" every 5 minutes.

    I think it's worth making a distinction between rich people and rich corporations. I say give the corporations the lower tax rate to bring the money home. But the second that money turns into personal income for anyone, either for an executive or a shareholder or even a lowly employee, tax it (and remove all of the personal tax break loopholes...and yes, I understand that's a gray area).

    Having the money sit in banks overseas does nobody in the US any good. Might as well let them move it to banks in the US, while taking 5% off the top in taxes when it transfers. The government gets more tax revenue. The banks get more deposits which could potentially free up cashflow for lending (as opposed to the government pumping money it doesn't have into the banking system). If it does get paid out to executives or investors, tax it for more revenue for the government. If the company uses it to hire more people or build more facilities, that's great, too. But even if the company doesn't invest any of the money in the US, it's still no worse than it sitting in bank in another country.

    No matter how high you make X, X% of $0 is always going to be less than 5% of $1.5 trillion. Let the companies bring the money home to give then the option of investing it in their domestic business operations. And tax the sh*t out of it as soon as any of it turns into personal income.
  • Reply 142 of 161
    chris_cachris_ca Posts: 2,543member
    Originally Posted by cheviot View Post

    Doesn't Apple already have 87 billion in cash they aren't spending

    No. They have $12B cash and $16B short term securities.

    Look at their 10Q ->

    Originally Posted by Thrifty1 View Post

    How about an alternative that allows a company like Apple to have their foreign profits taxed in the US at a rate slightly lower than what they would have paid in the foregin country? I don't know how the corporate tax rules work.... If they have a choice of paying taxes overseas or in the US, make it advantageous to pay them in the U.S.

    It's not one or the other. They have already paid taxes in the foreign countries.
  • Reply 143 of 161
    bsgincbsginc Posts: 78member
    No. No. No. A thousand times no. While I am all for corporate profits (at a sensible price), I also believe that it is time that corporations pay their fair share of the tax burden. Giving them a tax holiday comes at the expense of they very taxpayers that support them by buying products and by helping to fund the tax loopholes these corporations love so much.

    Corporations have all of the normal tax breaks that people have plus the ability to deduct expenses from income and the benefit of loopholes designed for them, tax credits, and sweetheart deals with local governments for reduced property taxes in the form of incentives. Worse, when they take advantage of incentives and credits, there is no promise that the corporations will stick around any longer than the life of the incentive. By doing so, they do not allow the entity granting the incentive to do more than break even ... thus proving that the incentive wasn't really for all.

    Why, when this country is in such bad shape financially, should one group of taxpayers be allowed to escape it's fair share of taxes?
  • Reply 144 of 161
    Originally Posted by MDCragg View Post

    They're not investing in America and in jobs here because they are afraid of draconian federal regulations like Obamacare. All this anti-corporate, pro-leftist, heavy-handed regulation, and pro-tax policy has created an America where no sane business would want to invest its capital. Is this so hard to see or understand?

    If you want to understand the economy always try to understand the incentives or dis-incentives that are created by things like government policies.

    Its been that way from FDR to the beginning of Reagan. American still grow over the decades with higher taxes and regulations. What has deregulations given us? Two economic bubbles in a row. TWO! IF its not broken don't fix it.
  • Reply 145 of 161
    Originally Posted by MDCragg View Post

    What would YOU have done to defend the US?

  • Reply 146 of 161
    Originally Posted by ahmlco View Post

    Spending is spending is spending. Going into debt to finance spending is a problem, "revenue" or not.

    Wisconsin, anyone? Then there the minor matter of holding the entire country ransom over the debt issue. (Kind of like a child throwing a tantrum until his demands are met.)

    I wasn't aware Iraq was invading the US. The towers came down and very nearly the first thing out of Bush's mouth was (and I paraphrase), "How can we pin this on Iraq?" 9/11 was a tragedy, but nearly every other civilized country on the planet treats terrorism as criminal issue. We drop bombs.

    Like the stimulus dollars wasted by the Bush Tax cuts? Or the TARP funds that were signed into law by U.S. President George W. Bush on October 3, 2008, and 99% of which have been repaid?

    Selective memory is a wonderful thing...

    Too true. Unfortunately, those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it. I graduated in 1981 with a BS in Economics and it was interesting at the time to be studying the Laffer Curve aka supply side economics and listening to David Stockman. It is no longer a theory. We had the perfect A/B test -- Clinton vs Bush. The exact same arguments were made in 1993 when the Democrats raised taxes -- the economy was going to implode and the sky was falling -- as we know absolutely wrong. 2001 Bush has surplus as far as could be seen and instead of being a true conservative and saying we are trillions in debt let's start paying the debt down he says lets give massive tax cuts and add another trillion to the debt. Now we can't go back to those "terrible" tax brackets we had under Clinton because we have to protect the "Job creators". That people are so stupid and forgetful is beyond comprehension.
  • Reply 147 of 161
    huntercrhuntercr Posts: 140member
    Originally Posted by fecklesstechguy View Post

    Is that all funds overseas are taxed by the countries they were generated in at whatever tax rate that country stipulates, period. By transferring money from overseas into the US the companies requesting the tax holiday are trying to reduce the impact of double-taxation - where the US government would again tax that money as it comes into the US - even though the companies have already been taxed overseas. But the good Senator doesn't want to go into that - all he sees is money for pork-barrel projects for his district.

    Note that they aren't trying to get off scot-free, they are putting a 5% rate on the table to pay into the tax system. If the money stays overseas - how will it benefit the US economy? Obviously it won't. If it it heavily taxed AGAIN coming into the US all you are doing is feeding the most rapacious and ineffectual programs management system in the world - the US government. And reducing the income that these companies have to use to bolster the US economy.

    If you make the US economy hostile to large companies they will take their operations elsewhere (moreso than even now) and simply treat the US economy as a market instead of home - which means they bleed even more money out of the US and into overseas economies.

    If you don't like the culture of large corporations you need to build strong supports for small to medium-sized businesses to grow and be successful. But our culture doesn't support that from a consumer perspective. And we elect into office those that continue to take payoffs from large corporations to support that culture.

    The future is always in the hands of the voters - take a close look at what happened in Iceland. You will have a hard time perhaps because the EU is trying to silence that revolution, but dig a bit. No one will change things for you. Too many are too comfortable with the status quo (and that's everyone from both sides of the political aisle) to make any effort to change.

    I don't understand why you are dismissing the behavior of the companies. That's not double taxation. If the revenue was unsheltered and taxed in the USA, that same company would be able to get all their foreign taxes paid as a credit just like you can do with individuals. And if there's not a 1:1 credt, then sure a deal should be worked out.. but not 5% that's just silly.

    Don't you see what they're doing? Don't paint these busineses as innocents.

    These businesses are actively shifting their business on paper into lower taxed countries to avoid taxes in the USA. They are shifting their losses to the US and their gains to foreign markets. It's all a scam and not a new one.

    You are buying into the idea that the "money" will stay overseas. What "money" will be staying? The only reason the money is "there" at all is becuase of the tax dodge. It's not like this is inherant profit created in local markets. It's all book keeping. it doesn't matter where it resides. If it were "here"it wouldn't benefit America either ( outside of tax revenue ). It's not like this money is somehow introduced into these foreign countries markets. Buying into the idea that these companies will be somehow generous and hire new employees because the government is forcing them to "take their money home" is ridiculous.

    When have you ever heard of a company voluntarily doing something that doesn't benefit them? I don't say that as someone who is against business.. I am a staunch capitalist, and it's actually because of that belief that I can be certain that a company wouldn't give one sweet dime if there wasn't something in it for them. It just isn't logical.

    I hadn't heard about what is going on in Iceland, I'll read up on that. Thanks for pointing that out.
  • Reply 148 of 161
    h2ph2p Posts: 317member
    Originally Posted by huntercr View Post

    They're begging "please please don't make me pay taxes on the money I purposely kept out of the country to try and avoid paying taxes on.... pretty please?"

    Senator Bernie Sander's list of top 10 companies who are cheating and avoiding income tax...

    ...purposely kept out of the country... huh? You've GOT to be repeating someone else's Talking Point.

    Co's like Apple PAY taxes in the country where the Profits are made OR in the US. Their choice. They are under ZERO obligation to bring that money back in!

    Of the 10 companies Bernie Sanders (our only avowed Socialist lawmaker) list... well, I'll look into them and get back with this thread. BUT, Co's basically don't pay taxes. Taxes are part of the Cost of Goods Sold. So, the consumers of their products and services pay the taxes. UNLESS, the taxes are so high that the price of the product is Priced Out of the market (like Labor from the Industrial West vs. Far East labor). Please chew on this awhile before spouting off more socialist-tinged rhetoric. Thank you.
  • Reply 149 of 161
    h2ph2p Posts: 317member
    Originally Posted by MDCragg View Post

    There is so much vicious hatred for corporations and rich people.

    Look through these posts in this thread... It is the venom of hateful, selfish, and mis-informed individuals.

    Thank you for your concise post... as though "the rich" are taking away THEIR piece of the pie. I have an acquaintance that thinks you are filthy rich if you earn $50,000 a year. Good luck reasoning with them.
  • Reply 150 of 161
    h2ph2p Posts: 317member
    Originally Posted by drobforever View Post

    Now before those who come and tell me that these companies will invest in US if they get this tax holiday, this is the biggest pile of BS and we all know it.

    Just REQUIRE IT. This is US Tax Law we're talking about. Well, Company, any "repatriated" cash that goes toward XYZ activitiy is taxed at 5%.

    That is NOT BS. That could be the law. period.
  • Reply 151 of 161
    alienzedalienzed Posts: 393member
    Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

    Not really, no.

    In an economy where money derives it's value by being limited, how can you not see that someone having tons of money necessarily means other people will have less of it?
  • Reply 152 of 161
    hmmhmm Posts: 3,405member
    Tax holidays/amnesty are dumb. It's an issue better dealt with at a baseline level. Last time they did it, it didn't really stimulate growth. If the government gives in each time, companies can hold funds offshore whenever possible in anticipation of further tax holidays.
  • Reply 153 of 161
    mdriftmeyermdriftmeyer Posts: 7,503member
    Originally Posted by H2P View Post

    Thank you for your concise post... as though "the rich" are taking away THEIR piece of the pie. I have an acquaintance that thinks you are filthy rich if you earn $50,000 a year. Good luck reasoning with them.

    That acquaintance isn't worth being an acquaintance if they are that slow in the head, but with $4 Trillion now estimated [$2.5 Trillion from Corporations + $1.5 Trillion from bailed out Banks] as being on the side-lines this is a simple game--starve the system until the legislation goes into your favor, then pour the money back in and charge a higher tax rate than what you are being charged which suddenly turns you a profit!
  • Reply 154 of 161
    chris_cachris_ca Posts: 2,543member
    Originally Posted by H2P View Post

    Just REQUIRE IT. This is US Tax Law we're talking about. Well, Company, any "repatriated" cash that goes toward XYZ activitiy is taxed at 5%.

    That is NOT BS. That could be the law. period.

    So you would be okay with the government telling you where you WILL spend your earnings?
  • Reply 155 of 161
    gctwnlgctwnl Posts: 278member
    Originally Posted by BenRoethig View Post

    It brings the money home and gives it to people like Steve Jobs who aren't hurting for money instead of the people now struggling to feed their families because their jobs are being shipped overseas to slave labor factories.

    I think this is money held overseas from purchases people make overseas. In other words, this is money largely held in rich countries like in Europe. Not many slave labour factories there. Many customers, though...

    That money already has been taxed overseas (sales tax and corporate tax), though on corporate taxes there are many loopholes in many national tax codes to prevent paying too much. And companies have incorporated subsidiaries often based on how to minimize taxes. Corporations in Europe often do not have to pay taxes at all on income that has already been (corporate) taxed elsewhere. A permanent 0% tax on income taxed outside the country. So for Europe, you make sure you make your profits in the country with the lowest taxes. Then move it wherever you like,

    There is however another angle. Europeans would probably like to see the profits generated by companies from Europeans to be invested again in Europe. By repatriating those profits to the US, Europe's economy gets the profit of the public money (taxes, not that much) but not the re-investment per se. Of course, this is normal global economy, so one should probably not make too much of that. In the end, the taxes paid end up in the local economy via public finance (e.g. education, infrastructure, etc.), the re-investments go the the place where they make the much money.

    Returning profits to the US might well see them invested largely in Asia. This is why their influence on the US economy probably will be minimal.
  • Reply 156 of 161
    h2ph2p Posts: 317member
    Originally Posted by Chris_CA View Post

    So you would be okay with the government telling you where you WILL spend your earnings?

    Chris_CA: No, I am completely opposed to the general proposition of the government telling anyone where to spend their earnings.

    I am in favor of specific programs (1 year "tax holiday" reduction) for the PORTION of the "repatriated" cash. Perhaps the program could stipulate that 50% of the repatriated earnings would be subject to the "jobs" requirement to qualify for the entire amount to be taxed at a reduced amount (5% or 5.25% or 12.5% or whatever is determined).

    But, thank you Chris_CA, for drawing out the distinction between general and specific.
  • Reply 157 of 161
    Originally Posted by MDCragg View Post

    Hey all...I am getting tired of this reading and typing. We will have to agree to disagree.

    I think we can all agree that you're a complete moron.
  • Reply 158 of 161
    Originally Posted by d-range View Post

    While I really like Apple products and will happily spend my hard-earned money to buy them, I find the whole idea of these 'tax holidays' repulsive, the name alone already makes me really angry. It's stuff like this that is making peoples lives miserable in the US, every dollar of profit that goes untaxed because of bullshit tax hikes like this will either be taken from taxpayers wallets, or simply further erode fundamental provisions like health care and education.

    Reading stuff like this makes me happy I live in Europe. Sure we pay relatively high taxes, but at least everybody pays, including the megacorporations, and at least we can provide everyone, including the less fortunate, with proper health care, education, child care, etc.

    I don't want to sound like everything is perfect over here, and wrong in the US, but come on, how can anyone in their right mind support tax hikes for megacorporations like Apple, who have $70 billion in the bank and are basically printing money, while there are millions of americans who basically have no access to the health care they need, will never be able to go to college or university, or have to work 2 full-time jobs just to be able to stay alive.

    I'm glad you live in Europe too. The problem here in America is our dumbass politicians trying to make it like Europe's failed policies.
  • Reply 159 of 161
    A few are spot on and most are from people who never owned a business. I see by most of the responses that we got what we deserved in office by the voters who put them there. How dare rich people and corporations make money without giving most of it to the collective to be sqaundered.
  • Reply 160 of 161
    9/1/11 Corporate freeloaders make taxpayers pick up the tab
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