O2 in the UK suggest just popping in on Friday. The local Apple retail store will have some, as well. Pre-orders are at 1-2 weeks on the online Apple store. Jesus, I expected them to have a huge capacity this time. Same design, been building for a while.
I am planning to buy the 64GB iPhone 4S unlocked at $849 and drop in an AT&T GoPhone SIM. I've priced it out my mobile phone usage compared to the cheapest AT&T iPhone plan (smallest voice, smallest data, no text) and it looks like I'll break even at eleven months. After that, I'll be paying about $15 a month whereas that cheapest plan is $55/month. After two years, I will have saved $520 versus being on a contract with a subsidized locked handset. Plus, I'll have an unlocked phone to sell used which commands a premium over locked phones.
Can you elaborate.... what does the $15 get you by way of voice, text, data?
Thats the second ad hominem by the way in one thread and both reported.
Has "ad hominem" become synonymous with "insult" through repeated misuse in forums, or is it just being used euphemistically, albeit wrongly, in this context? Just curious.
Can you elaborate.... what does the $15 get you by way of voice, text, data?
Thanks.
Sounds like he'd be using the 10¢/minute nationwide calling plan which gives him 150 minutes per month. For me that would be enough in talk time but Messaging and Data packages are available separately. If he's around WiFi that would be an option and iMessages will reduce the need for SMS if you know a lot of iPhone user.
I can't find the data and messaging rates for the GoPhone plans. If they are the same as their contracted devices, but prepaid, you won't see a direct benefit under that plan for many months.
Ignoring taxes, a prepaid iPhone 4S is $649 and a contracted iPhone 4S is $199. That's a difference of $449. If the regular voice plan for a contracted iPhone 4S is $60 and you only use about $15 worth of calls that is a savings per month of $45, (449 ÷ 45 = 10) which means it will be 10 months before your investment pays off. If you make $25 worth of calls (250 minutes) then your monthly savings are $35, (449 ÷ 35 = 13) which means 13 months before your investment pays off. Is that accurate?
Has "ad hominem" become synonymous with "insult" through repeated misuse in forums, or is it just being used euphemistically, albeit wrongly, in this context? Just curious.
Can you elaborate.... what does the $15 get you by way of voice, text, data?
Thanks.
I'm doing the same but from the UK, bought an iPhone 4 unlocked, am now selling that for £300 and have a new unlocked 4S ordered for £500, i.e. 200 to upgrade, and i'm with a Pay As You Go company called GiffGaff, for £10 ($15) per month i get 250 minutes unlimited texts and unlimited internet (Note unlimited truly means unlimited, no caps) and by the time the next iPhone comes out i'll do the same, sell the iPhone 4S to cover at least half the cost of the upgrade, am saving a fortune compared to some people i know.
Has "ad hominem" become synonymous with "insult" through repeated misuse in forums, or is it just being used euphemistically, albeit wrongly, in this context? Just curious.
Tis a common misconception. From Wikipedia:
Gratuitous verbal abuse or "name-calling" itself is not an ad hominem or a logical fallacy.
In order to become a fallacy, the insult would need to be given as a reason for believing some conclusion. An example would be, "X is idiotically ignorant [of politics], so why should we listen to him now?"
Sounds like he'd be using the 10¢/minute nationwide calling plan which gives him 150 minutes per month. For me that would be enough in talk time but Messaging and Data packages are available separately. If he's around WiFi that would be an option and iMessages will reduce the need for SMS if you know a lot of iPhone user.
I can't find the data and messaging rates for the GoPhone plans. If they are the same as their contracted devices, but prepaid, you won't see a direct benefit under that plan for x months.
Ignoring taxes, a prepaid iPhone 4S is $649 and a contracted iPhone 4S is $199. That's a difference of $449. If the regular voice plan for a contracted iPhone 4S is $60 and you only use about $15 worth of calls that is a savings per month of $45, (449 ÷ 45 = 10) which means it will be 10 months before your investment pays off. If you make $25 worth of calls (250 minutes) then your monthly savings are $35, (449 ÷ 35 = 13) which means 13 months before your investment pays off. Is that accurate?
About 150 mins is consistent with my voice use too, and this sounds prima facie interesting.
The issue is whether ATT makes up the difference in higher data and text rates. That's what I am hoping to find out....
Gratuitous verbal abuse or "name-calling" itself is not an ad hominem or a logical fallacy.
In order to become a fallacy, the insult would need to be given as a reason for believing some conclusion. An example would be, "X is idiotically ignorant [of politics], so why should we listen to him now?"
About 150 mins is consistent with my voice use too, and this sounds prima facie interesting.
The issue is whether ATT makes up the difference in higher data and text rates. That's what I am hoping to find out....
I've just realizing that I pay $60 a month for 450 minutes which I don't use. That's ¢13.3 per minute.
I'm guessing AT&T jacks you with GoPhone data and messaging but maybe, just maybe, there is a loop hope to exploit for those willing to pay full price up front for an iPhone.
Has "ad hominem" become synonymous with "insult" through repeated misuse in forums, or is it just being used euphemistically, albeit wrongly, in this context? Just curious.
... and an insult doesn't mean that the statement is false...
We will now return to the regularly listed program which is in progress...
My carrier told me this morning that I could switch back and forth between plans over the period of my contract as long as I commit to at least $50 worth of charges per month.
Has "ad hominem" become synonymous with "insult" through repeated misuse in forums, or is it just being used euphemistically, albeit wrongly, in this context? Just curious.
But I dont think I am dense. Hence the attack is a an ad hominem, an attack on the man not the argument. In any case these debates should be conducted as if in public - a dinner party or a public debate. I could easily respond in kind, and were moderation disabled ( and, frankly, it's not altogether clear it is enabled) then I would.
I know several people who purchased the iPhone 4S today that I would describe as generally techtarded. Very few technically inclined people I know bought the new iPhone today but that's mainly because they have the iPhone 4 and have a month before they are upgrade eligible. I'm one of them.
Absolutely correct, you really must be tech conscious to buy a cell phone. By the way, which group are you one of?
But I dont think I am dense. Hence the attack is a an ad hominem, an attack on the man not the argument. In any case these debates should be conducted as if in public - a dinner party or a public debate. I could easily respond in kind, and were moderation disabled ( and, frankly, it's not altogether clear it is enabled) then I would.
Not a big deal, but an attack on the man is not, per se, an ad hominem - the attack has to be being used to further the argument. The OP was not calling you dense to further his argument - it was just an uncomplimentary observation. I was not trying to defend the insult, just pursue something that has been bugging me for a while.
Not responding in kind is good, with or without moderation. And as island hermit said - back to the thread...
Yeah. Funny how all the Apple haters are not longer spouting that nonsense.
It was a non-issue to begin with. I theorize that people were reacting to a new product announcement without Apple's incredibly charismatic co-founder running the show. He's had more practice at "pulling the sheet back" on stage (so to speak) than literally anyone else at Apple. I mean, his original employee number was #0 (Woz was #1). He was a very polished presenter. Watch his old keynotes and study the pacing and cadence with which he delivered his message on stage... nobody does it like that. He would pause to let things sink in. You could see that Steve was deeply romantic about technology and how it could change the world. The sincerity of beliefs, his vision, is infectious, and I think I will miss seeing that in future keynotes and product introductions.
You could list all of the new features of the iPhone 4S in a bunch of slides, and it's a strong set of features on paper (better than the introduction of the iPhone 3GS due to iCloud and Siri really adding to the user experience), but Steve Jobs could make people feel like "I gotta be the first to have it." No disrespect to Tim Cook, but it wasn't the same with Steve
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
How could it be delayed when Apple never announced a ship date?
There are a number of things that could have been the limiting factor in getting this phone ready
- availability of A5 chips in sufficient quantity
- availability of the GSM/CDMA chip with sufficiently low power consumption
- iOS 5
- New camera sensors
or any number of other things. Frankly, no one outside of Apple has any idea, so it's not worth speculating. It was released when Apple was ready to release it. That's all that matters.
I think it's presumptuous of people to proclaim that Apple was "late" based on Apple not following its apparent pattern of iPhone releases in the recent past. Just because Apple's not following your schedule doesn't mean they aren't following theirs
You could list all of the new features of the iPhone 4S in a bunch of slides, and it's a strong set of features on paper (better than the introduction of the iPhone 3GS due to iCloud and Siri really adding to the user experience), but Steve Jobs could make people feel like "I gotta be the first to have it." No disrespect to Tim Cook, but it wasn't the same with Steve
"An ipod, a phone and an internet communicator..."
It was a non-issue to begin with. I theorize that people were reacting to a new product announcement without Apple's incredibly charismatic co-founder running the show. He's had more practice at "pulling the sheet back" on stage (so to speak) than literally anyone else at Apple. I mean, his original employee number was #0 (Woz was #1). He was a very polished presenter. Watch his old keynotes and study the pacing and cadence with which he delivered his message on stage... nobody does it like that. He would pause to let things sink in. You could see that Steve was deeply romantic about technology and how it could change the world. The sincerity of beliefs, his vision, is infectious, and I think I will miss seeing that in future keynotes and product introductions.
You could list all of the new features of the iPhone 4S in a bunch of slides, and it's a strong set of features on paper (better than the introduction of the iPhone 3GS due to iCloud and Siri really adding to the user experience), but Steve Jobs could make people feel like "I gotta be the first to have it." No disrespect to Tim Cook, but it wasn't the same with Steve
Definitely.
I don't think you'll ever see someone, Apple or tech or anything else-related, who can work a room like Steve could. He had the ability to connect with people, on a level that was nearly magical. I don't want to sound like some crazy fanboy. And I hope that's not how this comes off. But really, Steve could introduce a product -- glass and plastic and steel and silicon -- and you would feel like not only did you have to have it, but that it was like a gift. Like it was meant for you. You immediately had a personal relationship with the product.
If anything was missing, that was it. Of course, as others have pointed out, Cook and Co. were well aware that Jobs was on his last. So that must have been a terribly difficult introduction to do. Horribly difficult.
I've been studying up on Siri, and the more I learn the more I learn I think that it's a complete game changer. I can't wait.
I think it's presumptuous of people to proclaim that Apple was "late" based on Apple not following its apparent pattern of iPhone releases in the recent past. Just because Apple's not following your schedule doesn't mean they aren't following theirs
We don't know. I do think that they wanted to shift the sales to their 1Q, which is apparently working.
As someone who was disappointed with the 4S not having a new form ( I do like new design) because I have had the 3Gs for two years now - longer than my UK contract would force me to and I held off buying the iPhone 4 for 5 months, I have come around to the idea that this may have been a smart move.
If they have supply constraints on the 4S then there was no way they could have made a new form factor and even begun to match demand to supply. It just wouldnt have scaled in time. They may not do it now, even though the iPhone 4S has the same externals as the iPhone 4, and they have reportedly being ramping since August. ( I believe these reports on the 4S builds as they were accurate on the non-existance of the iPhone 5).
The thing is, can they ever hope to release an iPhone in the 1Q with a new form factor?
"An ipod, a phone and an internet communicator..."
Lol. Yeah, Jobs made that a religious experience, it could have been a powerpoint presentation.
Its a huge loss. I think Scott Forstall is the best at doing something like Jobs. Maybe Cooks role should be as compere. Short introductions, and stats, and everybody else gets to introduce things.
Gratuitous verbal abuse or "name-calling" itself is not an ad hominem or a logical fallacy.
In order to become a fallacy, the insult would need to be given as a reason for believing some conclusion. An example would be, "X is idiotically ignorant [of politics], so why should we listen to him now?"
Technically, I don't believe even that is an ad hominem. If a person is ignorant of politics, then it is reasonable to ignore their opinion on politics.
A true ad hominem typically has some bigotry involved: "You shouldn't pay attention to her view on math because she's a woman".
Comments
Whatever. Will be there.
I am planning to buy the 64GB iPhone 4S unlocked at $849 and drop in an AT&T GoPhone SIM. I've priced it out my mobile phone usage compared to the cheapest AT&T iPhone plan (smallest voice, smallest data, no text) and it looks like I'll break even at eleven months. After that, I'll be paying about $15 a month whereas that cheapest plan is $55/month. After two years, I will have saved $520 versus being on a contract with a subsidized locked handset. Plus, I'll have an unlocked phone to sell used which commands a premium over locked phones.
Can you elaborate.... what does the $15 get you by way of voice, text, data?
Thanks.
Thats the second ad hominem by the way in one thread and both reported.
Has "ad hominem" become synonymous with "insult" through repeated misuse in forums, or is it just being used euphemistically, albeit wrongly, in this context? Just curious.
Can you elaborate.... what does the $15 get you by way of voice, text, data?
Thanks.
Sounds like he'd be using the 10¢/minute nationwide calling plan which gives him 150 minutes per month. For me that would be enough in talk time but Messaging and Data packages are available separately. If he's around WiFi that would be an option and iMessages will reduce the need for SMS if you know a lot of iPhone user.
I can't find the data and messaging rates for the GoPhone plans. If they are the same as their contracted devices, but prepaid, you won't see a direct benefit under that plan for many months.
Ignoring taxes, a prepaid iPhone 4S is $649 and a contracted iPhone 4S is $199. That's a difference of $449. If the regular voice plan for a contracted iPhone 4S is $60 and you only use about $15 worth of calls that is a savings per month of $45, (449 ÷ 45 = 10) which means it will be 10 months before your investment pays off. If you make $25 worth of calls (250 minutes) then your monthly savings are $35, (449 ÷ 35 = 13) which means 13 months before your investment pays off. Is that accurate?
Has "ad hominem" become synonymous with "insult" through repeated misuse in forums, or is it just being used euphemistically, albeit wrongly, in this context? Just curious.
Both.
Can you elaborate.... what does the $15 get you by way of voice, text, data?
Thanks.
I'm doing the same but from the UK, bought an iPhone 4 unlocked, am now selling that for £300 and have a new unlocked 4S ordered for £500, i.e. 200 to upgrade, and i'm with a Pay As You Go company called GiffGaff, for £10 ($15) per month i get 250 minutes unlimited texts and unlimited internet (Note unlimited truly means unlimited, no caps) and by the time the next iPhone comes out i'll do the same, sell the iPhone 4S to cover at least half the cost of the upgrade, am saving a fortune compared to some people i know.
Has "ad hominem" become synonymous with "insult" through repeated misuse in forums, or is it just being used euphemistically, albeit wrongly, in this context? Just curious.
Tis a common misconception. From Wikipedia:
Gratuitous verbal abuse or "name-calling" itself is not an ad hominem or a logical fallacy.
In order to become a fallacy, the insult would need to be given as a reason for believing some conclusion. An example would be, "X is idiotically ignorant [of politics], so why should we listen to him now?"
Sounds like he'd be using the 10¢/minute nationwide calling plan which gives him 150 minutes per month. For me that would be enough in talk time but Messaging and Data packages are available separately. If he's around WiFi that would be an option and iMessages will reduce the need for SMS if you know a lot of iPhone user.
I can't find the data and messaging rates for the GoPhone plans. If they are the same as their contracted devices, but prepaid, you won't see a direct benefit under that plan for x months.
Ignoring taxes, a prepaid iPhone 4S is $649 and a contracted iPhone 4S is $199. That's a difference of $449. If the regular voice plan for a contracted iPhone 4S is $60 and you only use about $15 worth of calls that is a savings per month of $45, (449 ÷ 45 = 10) which means it will be 10 months before your investment pays off. If you make $25 worth of calls (250 minutes) then your monthly savings are $35, (449 ÷ 35 = 13) which means 13 months before your investment pays off. Is that accurate?
About 150 mins is consistent with my voice use too, and this sounds prima facie interesting.
The issue is whether ATT makes up the difference in higher data and text rates. That's what I am hoping to find out....
Both.
Tis a common misconception. From Wikipedia:
Gratuitous verbal abuse or "name-calling" itself is not an ad hominem or a logical fallacy.
In order to become a fallacy, the insult would need to be given as a reason for believing some conclusion. An example would be, "X is idiotically ignorant [of politics], so why should we listen to him now?"
Thanks. That was my conclusion too.
DED sure attracts a lot of ad homs.
About 150 mins is consistent with my voice use too, and this sounds prima facie interesting.
The issue is whether ATT makes up the difference in higher data and text rates. That's what I am hoping to find out....
I've just realizing that I pay $60 a month for 450 minutes which I don't use. That's ¢13.3 per minute.
I'm guessing AT&T jacks you with GoPhone data and messaging but maybe, just maybe, there is a loop hope to exploit for those willing to pay full price up front for an iPhone.
Has "ad hominem" become synonymous with "insult" through repeated misuse in forums, or is it just being used euphemistically, albeit wrongly, in this context? Just curious.
... and an insult doesn't mean that the statement is false...
We will now return to the regularly listed program which is in progress...
My carrier told me this morning that I could switch back and forth between plans over the period of my contract as long as I commit to at least $50 worth of charges per month.
This is Canada we're talking about...
Has "ad hominem" become synonymous with "insult" through repeated misuse in forums, or is it just being used euphemistically, albeit wrongly, in this context? Just curious.
But I dont think I am dense. Hence the attack is a an ad hominem, an attack on the man not the argument. In any case these debates should be conducted as if in public - a dinner party or a public debate. I could easily respond in kind, and were moderation disabled ( and, frankly, it's not altogether clear it is enabled) then I would.
I know several people who purchased the iPhone 4S today that I would describe as generally techtarded. Very few technically inclined people I know bought the new iPhone today but that's mainly because they have the iPhone 4 and have a month before they are upgrade eligible. I'm one of them.
Absolutely correct, you really must be tech conscious to buy a cell phone. By the way, which group are you one of?
But I dont think I am dense. Hence the attack is a an ad hominem, an attack on the man not the argument. In any case these debates should be conducted as if in public - a dinner party or a public debate. I could easily respond in kind, and were moderation disabled ( and, frankly, it's not altogether clear it is enabled) then I would.
Not a big deal, but an attack on the man is not, per se, an ad hominem - the attack has to be being used to further the argument. The OP was not calling you dense to further his argument - it was just an uncomplimentary observation. I was not trying to defend the insult, just pursue something that has been bugging me for a while.
Not responding in kind is good, with or without moderation. And as island hermit said - back to the thread...
Yeah. Funny how all the Apple haters are not longer spouting that nonsense.
It was a non-issue to begin with. I theorize that people were reacting to a new product announcement without Apple's incredibly charismatic co-founder running the show. He's had more practice at "pulling the sheet back" on stage (so to speak) than literally anyone else at Apple. I mean, his original employee number was #0 (Woz was #1). He was a very polished presenter. Watch his old keynotes and study the pacing and cadence with which he delivered his message on stage... nobody does it like that. He would pause to let things sink in. You could see that Steve was deeply romantic about technology and how it could change the world. The sincerity of beliefs, his vision, is infectious, and I think I will miss seeing that in future keynotes and product introductions.
You could list all of the new features of the iPhone 4S in a bunch of slides, and it's a strong set of features on paper (better than the introduction of the iPhone 3GS due to iCloud and Siri really adding to the user experience), but Steve Jobs could make people feel like "I gotta be the first to have it." No disrespect to Tim Cook, but it wasn't the same with Steve
How could it be delayed when Apple never announced a ship date?
There are a number of things that could have been the limiting factor in getting this phone ready
- availability of A5 chips in sufficient quantity
- availability of the GSM/CDMA chip with sufficiently low power consumption
- iOS 5
- New camera sensors
or any number of other things. Frankly, no one outside of Apple has any idea, so it's not worth speculating. It was released when Apple was ready to release it. That's all that matters.
I think it's presumptuous of people to proclaim that Apple was "late" based on Apple not following its apparent pattern of iPhone releases in the recent past. Just because Apple's not following your schedule doesn't mean they aren't following theirs
You could list all of the new features of the iPhone 4S in a bunch of slides, and it's a strong set of features on paper (better than the introduction of the iPhone 3GS due to iCloud and Siri really adding to the user experience), but Steve Jobs could make people feel like "I gotta be the first to have it." No disrespect to Tim Cook, but it wasn't the same with Steve
"An ipod, a phone and an internet communicator..."
It was a non-issue to begin with. I theorize that people were reacting to a new product announcement without Apple's incredibly charismatic co-founder running the show. He's had more practice at "pulling the sheet back" on stage (so to speak) than literally anyone else at Apple. I mean, his original employee number was #0 (Woz was #1). He was a very polished presenter. Watch his old keynotes and study the pacing and cadence with which he delivered his message on stage... nobody does it like that. He would pause to let things sink in. You could see that Steve was deeply romantic about technology and how it could change the world. The sincerity of beliefs, his vision, is infectious, and I think I will miss seeing that in future keynotes and product introductions.
You could list all of the new features of the iPhone 4S in a bunch of slides, and it's a strong set of features on paper (better than the introduction of the iPhone 3GS due to iCloud and Siri really adding to the user experience), but Steve Jobs could make people feel like "I gotta be the first to have it." No disrespect to Tim Cook, but it wasn't the same with Steve
Definitely.
I don't think you'll ever see someone, Apple or tech or anything else-related, who can work a room like Steve could. He had the ability to connect with people, on a level that was nearly magical. I don't want to sound like some crazy fanboy. And I hope that's not how this comes off. But really, Steve could introduce a product -- glass and plastic and steel and silicon -- and you would feel like not only did you have to have it, but that it was like a gift. Like it was meant for you. You immediately had a personal relationship with the product.
If anything was missing, that was it. Of course, as others have pointed out, Cook and Co. were well aware that Jobs was on his last. So that must have been a terribly difficult introduction to do. Horribly difficult.
I've been studying up on Siri, and the more I learn the more I learn I think that it's a complete game changer. I can't wait.
I think it's presumptuous of people to proclaim that Apple was "late" based on Apple not following its apparent pattern of iPhone releases in the recent past. Just because Apple's not following your schedule doesn't mean they aren't following theirs
We don't know. I do think that they wanted to shift the sales to their 1Q, which is apparently working.
As someone who was disappointed with the 4S not having a new form ( I do like new design) because I have had the 3Gs for two years now - longer than my UK contract would force me to and I held off buying the iPhone 4 for 5 months, I have come around to the idea that this may have been a smart move.
If they have supply constraints on the 4S then there was no way they could have made a new form factor and even begun to match demand to supply. It just wouldnt have scaled in time. They may not do it now, even though the iPhone 4S has the same externals as the iPhone 4, and they have reportedly being ramping since August. ( I believe these reports on the 4S builds as they were accurate on the non-existance of the iPhone 5).
The thing is, can they ever hope to release an iPhone in the 1Q with a new form factor?
"An ipod, a phone and an internet communicator..."
Lol. Yeah, Jobs made that a religious experience, it could have been a powerpoint presentation.
Its a huge loss. I think Scott Forstall is the best at doing something like Jobs. Maybe Cooks role should be as compere. Short introductions, and stats, and everybody else gets to introduce things.
Tis a common misconception. From Wikipedia:
Gratuitous verbal abuse or "name-calling" itself is not an ad hominem or a logical fallacy.
In order to become a fallacy, the insult would need to be given as a reason for believing some conclusion. An example would be, "X is idiotically ignorant [of politics], so why should we listen to him now?"
Technically, I don't believe even that is an ad hominem. If a person is ignorant of politics, then it is reasonable to ignore their opinion on politics.
A true ad hominem typically has some bigotry involved: "You shouldn't pay attention to her view on math because she's a woman".