Some people here are not very realistic minded, though they have no problems with being hypocritical, since I'm assuming that these people buy and own Apple devices, this being an Apple forum and all.
How many people does Foxconn employ again? If you don't know, then go look it up. And that's just one of Apple's contractors. As if a similar sized operation is ever going to be set up in the USA. You're dreaming.
If you're some holier than thou person who likes to whine about Apple and China, then put your money where your whiny mouth is, and don't buy anymore Apple products or any other products from any manufacturer that makes their stuff in China. You are part of the problem that you whine about, so you can't really complain about it, when you yourself is guilty of contributing to it.
As for me, I don't really give a shit, because I'm a pragmatist and not an unrealistic hypocrite.
Instead of whining and moaning about it, go start your own computer company and make everything in the USA and pay your hundreds of thousands of workers real good. Give them all extra long vacations and first rate health benefits, since you're such a nice employer. You could even hire some people to give your workers backrubs and foot massages during their breaks, since you care so much. Then release your product and have it compete against everybody else's product which is made in China. We'll see how long your company lasts.
I don't care if Apple uses prison labor to make my next iPad 3, as long as the quality remains top notch.
Some people here are not very realistic minded, though they have no problems with being hypocritical, since I'm assuming that these people buy and own Apple devices, this being an Apple forum and all.
How many people does Foxconn employ again? If you don't know, then go look it up. And that's just one of Apple's contractors. As if a similar sized operation is ever going to be set up in the USA. You're dreaming.
If you're some holier than thou person who likes to whine about Apple and China, then put your money where your whiny mouth is, and don't buy anymore Apple products or any other products from any manufacturer that makes their stuff in China. You are part of the problem that you whine about, so you can't really complain about it, when you yourself is guilty of contributing to it.
As for me, I don't really give a shit, because I'm a pragmatist and not an unrealistic hypocrite.
Instead of whining and moaning about it, go start your own computer company and make everything in the USA and pay your hundreds of thousands of workers real good. Give them all extra long vacations and first rate health benefits, since you're such a nice employer. You could even hire some people to give your workers backrubs and foot massages during their breaks, since you care so much. Then release your product and have it compete against everybody else's product which is made in China. We'll see how long your company lasts.
I don't care if Apple uses prison labor to make my next iPad 3, as long as the quality remains top notch.
What a sweetheart you are.
So when the First World's middle class completely collapses because there are no good jobs left, who, exactly, is going to be buying these products that these millions of Foxconn employees are making?
I'll suggest to The Oxford English Dictionary that they put your post in the dictionary as the entry for "short sighted".
Someone explain to me why it is Apple's responsibility to oversee another country's work environment. Apple hired them to produce a product in return for payment thats it. Its not their responsibility to "babysit" a work ethic in another country. If they can't get the job done, get another company in China to do it. Let the Chinese fix worker problems in China.
You're not going to like it, but well.
What's the worst thing Western civilization has known? Yeah, the moustache guy in brown.
Why? Because "hey, let the Germans deal with it, we're just lending them money", said American banks.
It's called morals. Sometimes, you can't just close your eyes and "just get the final product". Would you clean yourself with soap made of human grease in a concentration camp? It's the same soap, in the end, on a purely chemical sense. I know I would not.
This is a small planet. What you buy is produced by humans, and your buying choices, in our economic model, directly impacts the companies behavior. This also is true in BTB, as here: if Apple requires moral behavior from its Chinese partners, and enforces it, it is doing what the "Think Different" company must do to live up to its values.
I, for one, will keep buying from Apple as long as what they do is no-hassle, excellent quality and morally produced. I however will not spend the money I do if they start cutting corners with morals.
Jobs will not be moved to the US, but to India or Vietnam instead.
And that's for the best. The only justification, on the long run, for liberalism, which America forced on the world via assassinations, coups and tanks, as well as Hollywood and media, is global prosperity. This means that liberalism claims that by sacrificing job security and social insurances, by making private business stronger than community-bonds, you actually get a stronger, richer community.
In the short run, America was (and still is) very rich by perusing oil, minerals and human labor from other countries and continents. Ask Cubans or Colombians what they think about this.
Midway, which is now, American Ploutocrats get very much richer while the common man gets poorer in America, which is compensated for by Chinese, Indiansetc enriching themselves and creating a middle class.
In the long run, all that middle class creates the conditions for general prosperity. That's what America sold the world, at gunpoint if need be. They got their pie, they ate it. Now, they have to swallow the unpleasant pill.
I don't care if Apple uses prison labor to make my next iPad 3, as long as the quality remains top notch.
Prison labor? That is too good for them!
I wouldn't care if Apple raided small villages in the middle of the night and kidnapped children to take as slaves to work in factories until they dropped dead of exhaustion.
As long as the quality remains top notch. And the prices remain low.
For every person with a job in China, there's at least a hundred without. They'll just fire them and hire new workers, then they'll be sorry they participated in the strike. Harsh, but that's the reality over there.
Those jobs are there for a reason, cheap labor. Bringing it to the states wouldn't make sense from a business perspective. No company is out to do a public service. They're all in the business to make money.
For the ones who complain, why don't they start such a company and bring the jobs here instead of expecting someone else to do it. Then see how it fares with stock holders and earnings calls.
Americans take these things for granted. Even here in the states, for every person who is unhappy with their job, there are plenty who are late in bills or unemployed and would love to have it.
Apple have plenty of money. Everyone, except the Chinese factory owners, would cheer them if they relocated manufacturing back to the Western world.
Yet I do have confidence that even the shareholders would fix this problem as it is in their best interest. One of the largest company in the world, and American. You'd think Obama would jump on this and make it a good news story with all the bad press these days.
However Apple should consider moving some of those jobs back to the U.S. where many Americans are out of jobs.
I agree but only if you and I are willing to pay up to 40% more for Apple products. I'm not. Are you?And it's not only Apple. The entire American manufacturing industry has moved to China and we're all to blame. Here's a proposed experiment...
Place two identical men's shirts on the shelves at Walmart, one made in China, the other made in a unionized factory in Detroit. The shirt made in China is priced at $15. The shirt made in North Carolina is priced at $17.50. Now stand back and watch which one the customers select.
The very same posters here who are always whining about the Apple "tax" also tend to be the ones who go all moral on issues like this. Unless and until all the other electronics manufacturers choose to move back to the U.S. none of them will. It would be business suicide. It's a Catch-22 now. Manufacturing always follows the cheapest labor. It's why what manufacturing left in the U.S. is moving south to right-to-work states, away from unions.
I agree but only if you and I are willing to pay up to 40% more for Apple products. I'm not. Are you?And it's not only Apple. The entire American manufacturing industry has moved to China and we're all to blame. Here's a proposed experiment...
Place two identical men's shirts on the shelves at Walmart, one made in China, the other made in a unionized factory in Detroit. The shirt made in China is priced at $15. The shirt made in North Carolina is priced at $17.50. Now stand back and watch which one the customers select.
The very same posters here who are always whining about the Apple "tax" also tend to be the ones who go all moral on issues like this. Unless and until all the other electronics manufacturers choose to move back to the U.S. none of them will. It would be business suicide. It's a Catch-22 now. Manufacturing always follows the cheapest labor. It's why what manufacturing left in the U.S. is moving south to right-to-work states, away from unions.
If the $15 shirt had a big placard next to it saying, "This shirt is made with foreign labor--buy it, and your job is next to go overseas" I wonder how that would affect sales. Tie an action to a concrete result.
However Apple should consider moving some of those jobs back to the U.S. where many Americans are out of jobs.
Apple does have jobs in the US, all the good ones involving design and engineering, IT, ? in short all the best jobs are in the US and the dummy repetitive ones are in China. Look at agriculture: there are plenty of jobs there but no ?locals? want to do them, so its all done by foreign workers. Same thing goes for the jobs in those factories.
Being protectionist is not long term practical policy in today's world. We're all better off if we trade and work together.
The reason these Chinese workers are treated like crap is there are not enough employers competing for their labour. China allows *some* private business but overall it's still not a great environment for it. There is bribing of local officials needed, you can not own the land your factory is on, contract law is underdeveloped, you are forced to transfer tech to local companies. No businessman wants to put up with that. Some will put up with it to get access cheap labour, but not enough to start fighting over workers, which is what the workers really need.
Same in the US. There is so much regulation and compliance costs on business now (by some estimates $1,500,000,000,000/year) that only some companies are willing to put up with it to get access to the highly educated US workforce, not enough to employ everybody, and not enough to start fighting over workers, pushing up wages, which have been stagnant for a long time.
Unions can try and coerce the few remaining companies, but that is very short term thinking. The only long term win-win for everybody is to have *so many* companies and businesses that workers are treated like gold.
So when the First World's middle class completely collapses because there are no good jobs left, who, exactly, is going to be buying these products that these millions of Foxconn employees are making?
<snip>
When the First World's middle class completely collapses then they'll be making the same products now made by the Foxconn employees.
I agree but only if you and I are willing to pay up to 40% more for Apple products. I'm not. Are you?And it's not only Apple. The entire American manufacturing industry has moved to China and we're all to blame. Here's a proposed experiment...
Place two identical men's shirts on the shelves at Walmart, one made in China, the other made in a unionized factory in Detroit. The shirt made in China is priced at $15. The shirt made in North Carolina is priced at $17.50. Now stand back and watch which one the customers select.
The very same posters here who are always whining about the Apple "tax" also tend to be the ones who go all moral on issues like this. Unless and until all the other electronics manufacturers choose to move back to the U.S. none of them will. It would be business suicide. It's a Catch-22 now. Manufacturing always follows the cheapest labor. It's why what manufacturing left in the U.S. is moving south to right-to-work states, away from unions.
You already pay 40% more, what's another 40% for quality built products, with great customer service oh and that great ecosystem?
He's right though. Not Apple's responsibility and nor should they care. Instead of overtime the company (not Apple) should higher more people to work (instead of forced overtime) and address all of the concerns of the striking workers.
Without Unions, we would have the same working conditions in the United States of America today. I'm not saying that Unions are perfect. They are not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but without them, American workers, what's left of them, would have the same working conditions, if not worse.
There are more important things than money and material things.
At work Unions are more hassle then they are worth. I have to wait for a union guy to come and move my lap top and monitor from one desk to another. I can't just do it myself otherwise I'll get yelled at.
It doesn't make sense or companies to higher more expensive and less educated people.
If the $15 shirt had a big placard next to it saying, "This shirt is made with foreign labor--buy it, and your job is next to go overseas" I wonder how that would affect sales. Tie an action to a concrete result.
Would people then get it?
IMO, a big "Made in the USA" campaign is sorely needed.
I always try to buy locally, from small merchants. Next is regional chains with a home office nearby. I usually avoid national chains.
I prefer to buy American goods. We still make cars and computers. And food. I'd like to see a "Made in America" label displayed in prominent locations to make the choices easier.
First of all, good for them! Stand up for what's right.
Second, it's Apple's good faith responsibility that their products not be made in sweatshop conditions. It's inhumane, exploitation, and just plain wrong. It's the same reason I don't shop Walmart and I won't hire someone to do work on my house that sends people with questionable citizenship to do the work. The problem with Apple is that they're an American company, which I support, and they make great products and have excellent customer service. That makes it hard to not buy their products for me.
Comments
How many people does Foxconn employ again? If you don't know, then go look it up. And that's just one of Apple's contractors. As if a similar sized operation is ever going to be set up in the USA. You're dreaming.
If you're some holier than thou person who likes to whine about Apple and China, then put your money where your whiny mouth is, and don't buy anymore Apple products or any other products from any manufacturer that makes their stuff in China. You are part of the problem that you whine about, so you can't really complain about it, when you yourself is guilty of contributing to it.
As for me, I don't really give a shit, because I'm a pragmatist and not an unrealistic hypocrite.
Instead of whining and moaning about it, go start your own computer company and make everything in the USA and pay your hundreds of thousands of workers real good. Give them all extra long vacations and first rate health benefits, since you're such a nice employer. You could even hire some people to give your workers backrubs and foot massages during their breaks, since you care so much. Then release your product and have it compete against everybody else's product which is made in China. We'll see how long your company lasts.
I don't care if Apple uses prison labor to make my next iPad 3, as long as the quality remains top notch.
Some people here are not very realistic minded, though they have no problems with being hypocritical, since I'm assuming that these people buy and own Apple devices, this being an Apple forum and all.
How many people does Foxconn employ again? If you don't know, then go look it up. And that's just one of Apple's contractors. As if a similar sized operation is ever going to be set up in the USA. You're dreaming.
If you're some holier than thou person who likes to whine about Apple and China, then put your money where your whiny mouth is, and don't buy anymore Apple products or any other products from any manufacturer that makes their stuff in China. You are part of the problem that you whine about, so you can't really complain about it, when you yourself is guilty of contributing to it.
As for me, I don't really give a shit, because I'm a pragmatist and not an unrealistic hypocrite.
Instead of whining and moaning about it, go start your own computer company and make everything in the USA and pay your hundreds of thousands of workers real good. Give them all extra long vacations and first rate health benefits, since you're such a nice employer. You could even hire some people to give your workers backrubs and foot massages during their breaks, since you care so much. Then release your product and have it compete against everybody else's product which is made in China. We'll see how long your company lasts.
I don't care if Apple uses prison labor to make my next iPad 3, as long as the quality remains top notch.
What a sweetheart you are.
So when the First World's middle class completely collapses because there are no good jobs left, who, exactly, is going to be buying these products that these millions of Foxconn employees are making?
I'll suggest to The Oxford English Dictionary that they put your post in the dictionary as the entry for "short sighted".
Someone explain to me why it is Apple's responsibility to oversee another country's work environment. Apple hired them to produce a product in return for payment thats it. Its not their responsibility to "babysit" a work ethic in another country. If they can't get the job done, get another company in China to do it. Let the Chinese fix worker problems in China.
You're not going to like it, but well.
What's the worst thing Western civilization has known? Yeah, the moustache guy in brown.
Why? Because "hey, let the Germans deal with it, we're just lending them money", said American banks.
It's called morals. Sometimes, you can't just close your eyes and "just get the final product". Would you clean yourself with soap made of human grease in a concentration camp? It's the same soap, in the end, on a purely chemical sense. I know I would not.
This is a small planet. What you buy is produced by humans, and your buying choices, in our economic model, directly impacts the companies behavior. This also is true in BTB, as here: if Apple requires moral behavior from its Chinese partners, and enforces it, it is doing what the "Think Different" company must do to live up to its values.
I, for one, will keep buying from Apple as long as what they do is no-hassle, excellent quality and morally produced. I however will not spend the money I do if they start cutting corners with morals.
Jobs will not be moved to the US, but to India or Vietnam instead.
And that's for the best. The only justification, on the long run, for liberalism, which America forced on the world via assassinations, coups and tanks, as well as Hollywood and media, is global prosperity. This means that liberalism claims that by sacrificing job security and social insurances, by making private business stronger than community-bonds, you actually get a stronger, richer community.
In the short run, America was (and still is) very rich by perusing oil, minerals and human labor from other countries and continents. Ask Cubans or Colombians what they think about this.
Midway, which is now, American Ploutocrats get very much richer while the common man gets poorer in America, which is compensated for by Chinese, Indiansetc enriching themselves and creating a middle class.
In the long run, all that middle class creates the conditions for general prosperity. That's what America sold the world, at gunpoint if need be. They got their pie, they ate it. Now, they have to swallow the unpleasant pill.
But hey, it's America. They'll manage
I don't care if Apple uses prison labor to make my next iPad 3, as long as the quality remains top notch.
Prison labor? That is too good for them!
I wouldn't care if Apple raided small villages in the middle of the night and kidnapped children to take as slaves to work in factories until they dropped dead of exhaustion.
As long as the quality remains top notch. And the prices remain low.
For every person with a job in China, there's at least a hundred without. They'll just fire them and hire new workers, then they'll be sorry they participated in the strike. Harsh, but that's the reality over there.
Those jobs are there for a reason, cheap labor. Bringing it to the states wouldn't make sense from a business perspective. No company is out to do a public service. They're all in the business to make money.
For the ones who complain, why don't they start such a company and bring the jobs here instead of expecting someone else to do it. Then see how it fares with stock holders and earnings calls.
Americans take these things for granted. Even here in the states, for every person who is unhappy with their job, there are plenty who are late in bills or unemployed and would love to have it.
Apple have plenty of money. Everyone, except the Chinese factory owners, would cheer them if they relocated manufacturing back to the Western world.
Yet I do have confidence that even the shareholders would fix this problem as it is in their best interest. One of the largest company in the world, and American. You'd think Obama would jump on this and make it a good news story with all the bad press these days.
Safety First!
However Apple should consider moving some of those jobs back to the U.S. where many Americans are out of jobs.
I agree but only if you and I are willing to pay up to 40% more for Apple products. I'm not. Are you?And it's not only Apple. The entire American manufacturing industry has moved to China and we're all to blame. Here's a proposed experiment...
Place two identical men's shirts on the shelves at Walmart, one made in China, the other made in a unionized factory in Detroit. The shirt made in China is priced at $15. The shirt made in North Carolina is priced at $17.50. Now stand back and watch which one the customers select.
The very same posters here who are always whining about the Apple "tax" also tend to be the ones who go all moral on issues like this. Unless and until all the other electronics manufacturers choose to move back to the U.S. none of them will. It would be business suicide. It's a Catch-22 now. Manufacturing always follows the cheapest labor. It's why what manufacturing left in the U.S. is moving south to right-to-work states, away from unions.
You're not going to like it, but well.
What's the worst thing Western civilization has known? Yeah, the moustache guy in brown.
Why? Because "hey, let the Germans deal with it, we're just lending them money", said American
You brought up Nazi's. You lose at the Internet.
I agree but only if you and I are willing to pay up to 40% more for Apple products. I'm not. Are you?And it's not only Apple. The entire American manufacturing industry has moved to China and we're all to blame. Here's a proposed experiment...
Place two identical men's shirts on the shelves at Walmart, one made in China, the other made in a unionized factory in Detroit. The shirt made in China is priced at $15. The shirt made in North Carolina is priced at $17.50. Now stand back and watch which one the customers select.
The very same posters here who are always whining about the Apple "tax" also tend to be the ones who go all moral on issues like this. Unless and until all the other electronics manufacturers choose to move back to the U.S. none of them will. It would be business suicide. It's a Catch-22 now. Manufacturing always follows the cheapest labor. It's why what manufacturing left in the U.S. is moving south to right-to-work states, away from unions.
If the $15 shirt had a big placard next to it saying, "This shirt is made with foreign labor--buy it, and your job is next to go overseas" I wonder how that would affect sales. Tie an action to a concrete result.
Would people then get it?
Safety First!
However Apple should consider moving some of those jobs back to the U.S. where many Americans are out of jobs.
Apple does have jobs in the US, all the good ones involving design and engineering, IT, ? in short all the best jobs are in the US and the dummy repetitive ones are in China. Look at agriculture: there are plenty of jobs there but no ?locals? want to do them, so its all done by foreign workers. Same thing goes for the jobs in those factories.
As for me, I don't really give a shit, because I'm an asshole and not an empathetic human being.
There, fixed it for ya.
The reason these Chinese workers are treated like crap is there are not enough employers competing for their labour. China allows *some* private business but overall it's still not a great environment for it. There is bribing of local officials needed, you can not own the land your factory is on, contract law is underdeveloped, you are forced to transfer tech to local companies. No businessman wants to put up with that. Some will put up with it to get access cheap labour, but not enough to start fighting over workers, which is what the workers really need.
Same in the US. There is so much regulation and compliance costs on business now (by some estimates $1,500,000,000,000/year) that only some companies are willing to put up with it to get access to the highly educated US workforce, not enough to employ everybody, and not enough to start fighting over workers, pushing up wages, which have been stagnant for a long time.
Unions can try and coerce the few remaining companies, but that is very short term thinking. The only long term win-win for everybody is to have *so many* companies and businesses that workers are treated like gold.
<snip>
So when the First World's middle class completely collapses because there are no good jobs left, who, exactly, is going to be buying these products that these millions of Foxconn employees are making?
<snip>
When the First World's middle class completely collapses then they'll be making the same products now made by the Foxconn employees.
You brought up Nazi's. You lose at the Internet.
A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.
Google Godwin. His law is only one of the interesting things about him.
I agree but only if you and I are willing to pay up to 40% more for Apple products. I'm not. Are you?And it's not only Apple. The entire American manufacturing industry has moved to China and we're all to blame. Here's a proposed experiment...
Place two identical men's shirts on the shelves at Walmart, one made in China, the other made in a unionized factory in Detroit. The shirt made in China is priced at $15. The shirt made in North Carolina is priced at $17.50. Now stand back and watch which one the customers select.
The very same posters here who are always whining about the Apple "tax" also tend to be the ones who go all moral on issues like this. Unless and until all the other electronics manufacturers choose to move back to the U.S. none of them will. It would be business suicide. It's a Catch-22 now. Manufacturing always follows the cheapest labor. It's why what manufacturing left in the U.S. is moving south to right-to-work states, away from unions.
You already pay 40% more, what's another 40% for quality built products, with great customer service oh and that great ecosystem?
*sighs*
He's right though. Not Apple's responsibility and nor should they care. Instead of overtime the company (not Apple) should higher more people to work (instead of forced overtime) and address all of the concerns of the striking workers.
Don't you just hate those "Unions"?
Without Unions, we would have the same working conditions in the United States of America today. I'm not saying that Unions are perfect. They are not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but without them, American workers, what's left of them, would have the same working conditions, if not worse.
There are more important things than money and material things.
At work Unions are more hassle then they are worth. I have to wait for a union guy to come and move my lap top and monitor from one desk to another. I can't just do it myself otherwise I'll get yelled at.
It doesn't make sense or companies to higher more expensive and less educated people.
If the $15 shirt had a big placard next to it saying, "This shirt is made with foreign labor--buy it, and your job is next to go overseas" I wonder how that would affect sales. Tie an action to a concrete result.
Would people then get it?
IMO, a big "Made in the USA" campaign is sorely needed.
I always try to buy locally, from small merchants. Next is regional chains with a home office nearby. I usually avoid national chains.
I prefer to buy American goods. We still make cars and computers. And food. I'd like to see a "Made in America" label displayed in prominent locations to make the choices easier.
Second, it's Apple's good faith responsibility that their products not be made in sweatshop conditions. It's inhumane, exploitation, and just plain wrong. It's the same reason I don't shop Walmart and I won't hire someone to do work on my house that sends people with questionable citizenship to do the work. The problem with Apple is that they're an American company, which I support, and they make great products and have excellent customer service. That makes it hard to not buy their products for me.