You want to believe in social responsibility, be consistent about it. Why is it that every story about Chinese factories is spun to make it look as though Apple owns those factories? Everyone conveniently ignores the fact that everybody else uses those same factories to have their stuff made.
Social responsibility and journalistic spin aren't the same thing. but I do hear you, Apple keyboards are made there by 10% of their workforce so laying this primarily on apple isn't fair. But they are the big dog now. Whether they are the center of any particular issue or barely involved it will be called an apple problem. Cause that's who everyone knows. Like I said it's not fair but I bet we see more of it not less.
Uncle Bens advice to Peter Parker probably also applies here.
You want to believe in social responsibility, be consistent about it. Why is it that every story about Chinese factories is spun to make it look as though Apple owns those factories? Everyone conveniently ignores the fact that everybody else uses those same factories to have their stuff made.
I am being consistent about it. I am absolutely fine with drawing IBM, HP, Dell, and any other hardware designer into the conversation. Your argument seems to be, "Hey, the other guys are off the hook, so why not let Apple slide, too?" -- How progressive of you!
Anyway, I know that hyperbole is easier when you've got a username to hide behind, but if you were rocking your christian name I think you'd be applying a bit more restraint.
The point of this debate, I believe, comes down to this: It isn't fair to single out Apple, but that doesn't imply that we should forget about it, it implies that the situation with Apple is emblematic of a system that exports miseries that most Americans, if confronted with, would find reprehensible, but because they have been placed on the other side of an imaginary national "border," they aren't as "real" as they would be if they were happening to teenagers in the states. Do our morals stop at the oceans; do we believe in anything at all? Is American morality a myth that they teach in grade school? The evidence seems to be stacking up in favor of an affirmative answer to that question.
Anecdotally, I will say I have very little fondness for the south, but if kids there were being treated like slaves, like property of some corporation, I would be glad to waive the "Social Justice" flag in support of them, too. The whole idea of social justice is that it disregards the petty, tribalistic, base differences that separate us in hopes (ridiculous, idealistic hopes, perhaps) that humanity can be more than a bunch of savage beasts.
Brand loyalty shouldn't stop you from saying, "Hey, everybody could do a little better and that's not asking too much." That's ostensibly the point of this social experiment, in fact.
Social responsibility and journalistic spin aren't the same thing. but I do hear you, Apple keyboards are made there by 10% of their workforce so laying this primarily on apple isn't fair. But they are the big dog now. Whether they are the center of any particular issue or barely involved it will be called an apple problem. Cause that's who everyone knows. Like I said it's not fair but I bet we see more of it not less.
Uncle Bens advice to Peter Parker probably also applies here.
If the numbers about Android are to be believed, then Apple is not top dog. And their responsibility as a public corporation is to act in the best interests of shareholders. That has always been their responsibility.
I am being consistent about it. I am absolutely fine with drawing IBM, HP, Dell, and any other hardware designer into the conversation. Your argument seems to be, "Hey, the other guys are off the hook, so why not let Apple slide, too?" -- How progressive of you!
Anyway, I know that hyperbole is easier when you've got a username to hide behind, but if you were rocking your christian name I think you'd be applying a bit more restraint.
The point of this debate, I believe, comes down to this: It isn't fair to single out Apple, but that doesn't imply that we should forget about it, it implies that the situation with Apple is emblematic of a system that exports miseries that most Americans, if confronted with, would find reprehensible, but because they have been placed on the other side of an imaginary national "border," they aren't as "real" as they would be if they were happening to teenagers in the states. Do our morals stop at the oceans; do we believe in anything at all? Is American morality a myth that they teach in grade school? The evidence seems to be stacking up in favor of an affirmative answer to that question.
Anecdotally, I will say I have very little fondness for the south, but if kids there were being treated like slaves, like property of some corporation, I would be glad to waive the "Social Justice" flag in support of them, too. The whole idea of social justice is that it disregards the petty, tribalistic, base differences that separate us in hopes (ridiculous, idealistic hopes, perhaps) that humanity can be more than a bunch of savage beasts.
Brand loyalty shouldn't stop you from saying, "Hey, everybody could do a little better and that's not asking too much." That's ostensibly the point of this social experiment, in fact.
Kind regards,
Dean A. Solecki
I'm not saying you specifically are not being consistent. What I'm saying is, "If Apple is on the hood, then everybody else better be on the hook too."
My contention has always been that Apple is not the first to engage in the business practices that people are criticizing, but somehow, it's only Apple that ends up with egg on their faces. That's what I find to be puzzling.
Read the comments on Engadget whenever a new Apple product is reviewed. They say that Apple should have had that product made in the USA rather than have it made with Chinese slave labor. Yet, when there's a new Android phone reviewed on Engadget, there isn't a murmur about the working conditions of the factories in which that Android device was made.
If the numbers about Android are to be believed, then Apple is not top dog. And their responsibility as a public corporation is to act in the best interests of shareholders. That has always been their responsibility.
I'm sure some fandroids would dispute who is top dog. But it's Apple and IPhone and Ipad that get the attention in the news. Apple is nearly the most valuable (by market cap) company in the world. They are top dog and will get the most press. Fair or not.
Part of the responsibility of apple to shareholders is to make sure Tim Cook doesn't have to do a Kathy Lee Gifford on tv.(she cried her eyes out when she found out her clothing line was being made by child labor)
Edit: and Gifford was on the hook cause she is quite visible(like apple) not because her company was the only one.
I'm not saying you specifically are not being consistent. What I'm saying is, "If Apple is on the hood, then everybody else better be on the hook too."
My contention has always been that Apple is not the first to engage in the business practices that people are criticizing, but somehow, it's only Apple that ends up with egg on their faces. That's what I find to be puzzling.
Read the comments on Engadget whenever a new Apple product is reviewed. They say that Apple should have had that product made in the USA rather than have it made with Chinese slave labor. Yet, when there's a new Android phone reviewed on Engadget, there isn't a murmur about the working conditions of the factories in which that Android device was made.
Fair enough. I believe it has been said, though, that the biggest buck is going to be the target (to paraphrase with somewhat ironic terminology) and in terms of public perception Apple is the biggest buck.
I feel, still, that it is irresponsible, socially, to focus on the media's obsession with Apple instead of the very real concern of human rights violations, which we should all at least agree are unfortunate, if we can't agree on anything more damning.
Bringing jobs back to America would take legislation and artificial barriers that a broken government apparatus could not employ without means beyond my knowledge. If an ethical precedent was set, that all manufactured goods imported to the United States must meet the ethical standards that prevail here, you would see all of those jobs flooding back to the states, because the advantage of slave labor would be lost. If the US could strong arm the UK and Germany into the same agreement China's economy would be faced with a massive reconfiguration that would give an advantage back to the West, which would seem to suit the ethnocentrics as much as the humanitarians.
Of course, there are a thousand problems with implementing something this massive, and at every turn conservatism and big business would be standing in the way; ultimately to their own harm and the harm of all of us.
Well that post was pretty dark. Not mean necessarily. But maybe you're turning your observations into absolutes. That can make ones observations less accurate and I can see where that could come across as mean.
Or maybe there is a bias. Tough to tell sometimes.
Well that post was pretty dark. Not mean necessarily. But maybe you're turning your observations into absolutes. That can make ones observations less accurate and I can see where that could come across as mean.
Or maybe there is a bias. Tough to tell sometimes.
nah I got an infraction for calling Apple ][ immature...and a nutcase.
I was so enraged around the time that the iPad 2 was released and I sent him a polite email complaining about Chinese scalpers who were infesting Apple stores. That was the only email that I ever sent him. I never did get any reply from that mail. I wasn't expecting one either.
Probably because he realized through your writing that you are an immature nutcase.
And you're like 60.
------------------
but yea...I have a bleak impression of the human race...and it keeps getting worse year after year...not sure if it's reality getting worse and I'm just observing it or if year after year I am becoming a more cynical human being.
but yea...I have a bleak impression of the human race...and it keeps getting worse year after year...not sure if it's reality getting worse and I'm just observing it or if year after year I am becoming a more cynical human being.
Well you're not supposed to call people names like nutcase. Even if they are.
Wow, I find it quite hard to believe he's 60. Or even 30.
Edit: sometimes when things seem bleak in the world the best thing to do is help someone else. Read a book to a child, help an elder person in some way. It won't change the world necessarily, but it can change your world. And theirs. And maybe that is helpful to the world at large.
If the numbers about Android are to be believed, then Apple is not top dog. And their responsibility as a public corporation is to act in the best interests of shareholders. That has always been their responsibility.
Social responsibility, at a minimum, is an incredible marketing tool. It is not without value to shareholders.
Social responsibility also protects against litigation.
One has to compare the long-term strategic marketing impact and legal savings of a company's policies against short term costs to determine whether the company is acting in the best interest of shareholders.
I'd say Apple are doing a good job, but they can continue to improve in this regard.
...the tech media and "USA only" honks lather up over Apple abusing the workers and how they should be making all their stuff in their USA, etc...
you forgot apples competitors (wankers) who are failing miserably, whose only means of 'competing' is to pay trolls in an attempt to tarnish the apple name, hoping to drive down the share price.
that would happen with other companies, but i think apple is a pretty ethical company with a very strong foundation and a solid product. they'll be around long after these companies are gone and forgotten.
Social responsibility, at a minimum, is an incredible marketing tool. It is not without value to shareholders.
Social responsibility also protects against litigation.
One has to compare the long-term strategic marketing impact and legal savings of a company's policies against short term costs to determine whether the company is acting in the best interest of shareholders.
I'd say Apple are doing a good job, but they can continue to improve in this regard.
Yea I don't get why Apple is seemingly at the center of this shit.
Well you're not supposed to call people names like nutcase. Even if they are.
Wow, I find it quite hard to believe he's 60. Or even 30.
Edit: sometimes when things seem bleak in the world the best thing to do is help someone else. Read a book to a child, help an elder person in some way. It won't change the world necessarily, but it can change your world. And theirs. And maybe that is helpful to the world at large.
Or maybe go bungie jumping or skydiving.
Yea I know...I just feel that I am growing increasingly nihilistic...of sorts.
What these guys don't understand is that they are better off working for Apple's supplier than they are doing other jobs, or more likely, being unemployed. They should be grateful that Apple hires them.
Yes, I agree....I also agree that life under slavery in the United States wasn't so bad either. The workers were fed, clothed, received free housing and got to work outside. And all those sex workers that cater to sex tourism in places like Thailand should thank their lucky stars also. Instead of having to do hard labor on a farm, they get to work in a nice nightclub and lie on their backs. What a great life!
The puffs over here really don't seem to get that a bad job over there, is better than NO job over there.. Who are we to try to tell other people how to live.. Working at this factory is probably a really good job to have...
"3,000-worker plant provides Apple and IBM with components, including keyboards."
In a statement regarding the issue, the rights group called on Apple to "take responsibility, as there are more than 300 workers working on the Apple keyboard assembly line."
So 300 hundred work on Apple products, out of 3000, and Apple is responsible for the working conditions???
EVERYTHING is run by the Chinese government, if the conditions are bad, blame the Chinese government, not Apple..
Wrong. The problem isn't the presence of government, it's the lack of presence. The conditions in Chinese factories are a direct result of not enough effective regulation.
Wrong. The problem isn't the presence of government, it's the lack of presence. The conditions in Chinese factories are a direct result of not enough effective regulation.
Comments
You want to believe in social responsibility, be consistent about it. Why is it that every story about Chinese factories is spun to make it look as though Apple owns those factories? Everyone conveniently ignores the fact that everybody else uses those same factories to have their stuff made.
Social responsibility and journalistic spin aren't the same thing. but I do hear you, Apple keyboards are made there by 10% of their workforce so laying this primarily on apple isn't fair. But they are the big dog now. Whether they are the center of any particular issue or barely involved it will be called an apple problem. Cause that's who everyone knows. Like I said it's not fair but I bet we see more of it not less.
Uncle Bens advice to Peter Parker probably also applies here.
You want to believe in social responsibility, be consistent about it. Why is it that every story about Chinese factories is spun to make it look as though Apple owns those factories? Everyone conveniently ignores the fact that everybody else uses those same factories to have their stuff made.
I am being consistent about it. I am absolutely fine with drawing IBM, HP, Dell, and any other hardware designer into the conversation. Your argument seems to be, "Hey, the other guys are off the hook, so why not let Apple slide, too?" -- How progressive of you!
Anyway, I know that hyperbole is easier when you've got a username to hide behind, but if you were rocking your christian name I think you'd be applying a bit more restraint.
The point of this debate, I believe, comes down to this: It isn't fair to single out Apple, but that doesn't imply that we should forget about it, it implies that the situation with Apple is emblematic of a system that exports miseries that most Americans, if confronted with, would find reprehensible, but because they have been placed on the other side of an imaginary national "border," they aren't as "real" as they would be if they were happening to teenagers in the states. Do our morals stop at the oceans; do we believe in anything at all? Is American morality a myth that they teach in grade school? The evidence seems to be stacking up in favor of an affirmative answer to that question.
Anecdotally, I will say I have very little fondness for the south, but if kids there were being treated like slaves, like property of some corporation, I would be glad to waive the "Social Justice" flag in support of them, too. The whole idea of social justice is that it disregards the petty, tribalistic, base differences that separate us in hopes (ridiculous, idealistic hopes, perhaps) that humanity can be more than a bunch of savage beasts.
Brand loyalty shouldn't stop you from saying, "Hey, everybody could do a little better and that's not asking too much." That's ostensibly the point of this social experiment, in fact.
Kind regards,
Dean A. Solecki
Social responsibility and journalistic spin aren't the same thing. but I do hear you, Apple keyboards are made there by 10% of their workforce so laying this primarily on apple isn't fair. But they are the big dog now. Whether they are the center of any particular issue or barely involved it will be called an apple problem. Cause that's who everyone knows. Like I said it's not fair but I bet we see more of it not less.
Uncle Bens advice to Peter Parker probably also applies here.
If the numbers about Android are to be believed, then Apple is not top dog. And their responsibility as a public corporation is to act in the best interests of shareholders. That has always been their responsibility.
I am being consistent about it. I am absolutely fine with drawing IBM, HP, Dell, and any other hardware designer into the conversation. Your argument seems to be, "Hey, the other guys are off the hook, so why not let Apple slide, too?" -- How progressive of you!
Anyway, I know that hyperbole is easier when you've got a username to hide behind, but if you were rocking your christian name I think you'd be applying a bit more restraint.
The point of this debate, I believe, comes down to this: It isn't fair to single out Apple, but that doesn't imply that we should forget about it, it implies that the situation with Apple is emblematic of a system that exports miseries that most Americans, if confronted with, would find reprehensible, but because they have been placed on the other side of an imaginary national "border," they aren't as "real" as they would be if they were happening to teenagers in the states. Do our morals stop at the oceans; do we believe in anything at all? Is American morality a myth that they teach in grade school? The evidence seems to be stacking up in favor of an affirmative answer to that question.
Anecdotally, I will say I have very little fondness for the south, but if kids there were being treated like slaves, like property of some corporation, I would be glad to waive the "Social Justice" flag in support of them, too. The whole idea of social justice is that it disregards the petty, tribalistic, base differences that separate us in hopes (ridiculous, idealistic hopes, perhaps) that humanity can be more than a bunch of savage beasts.
Brand loyalty shouldn't stop you from saying, "Hey, everybody could do a little better and that's not asking too much." That's ostensibly the point of this social experiment, in fact.
Kind regards,
Dean A. Solecki
I'm not saying you specifically are not being consistent. What I'm saying is, "If Apple is on the hood, then everybody else better be on the hook too."
My contention has always been that Apple is not the first to engage in the business practices that people are criticizing, but somehow, it's only Apple that ends up with egg on their faces. That's what I find to be puzzling.
Read the comments on Engadget whenever a new Apple product is reviewed. They say that Apple should have had that product made in the USA rather than have it made with Chinese slave labor. Yet, when there's a new Android phone reviewed on Engadget, there isn't a murmur about the working conditions of the factories in which that Android device was made.
If the numbers about Android are to be believed, then Apple is not top dog. And their responsibility as a public corporation is to act in the best interests of shareholders. That has always been their responsibility.
I'm sure some fandroids would dispute who is top dog. But it's Apple and IPhone and Ipad that get the attention in the news. Apple is nearly the most valuable (by market cap) company in the world. They are top dog and will get the most press. Fair or not.
Part of the responsibility of apple to shareholders is to make sure Tim Cook doesn't have to do a Kathy Lee Gifford on tv.(she cried her eyes out when she found out her clothing line was being made by child labor)
Edit: and Gifford was on the hook cause she is quite visible(like apple) not because her company was the only one.
I'm not saying you specifically are not being consistent. What I'm saying is, "If Apple is on the hood, then everybody else better be on the hook too."
My contention has always been that Apple is not the first to engage in the business practices that people are criticizing, but somehow, it's only Apple that ends up with egg on their faces. That's what I find to be puzzling.
Read the comments on Engadget whenever a new Apple product is reviewed. They say that Apple should have had that product made in the USA rather than have it made with Chinese slave labor. Yet, when there's a new Android phone reviewed on Engadget, there isn't a murmur about the working conditions of the factories in which that Android device was made.
Fair enough. I believe it has been said, though, that the biggest buck is going to be the target (to paraphrase with somewhat ironic terminology) and in terms of public perception Apple is the biggest buck.
I feel, still, that it is irresponsible, socially, to focus on the media's obsession with Apple instead of the very real concern of human rights violations, which we should all at least agree are unfortunate, if we can't agree on anything more damning.
Bringing jobs back to America would take legislation and artificial barriers that a broken government apparatus could not employ without means beyond my knowledge. If an ethical precedent was set, that all manufactured goods imported to the United States must meet the ethical standards that prevail here, you would see all of those jobs flooding back to the states, because the advantage of slave labor would be lost. If the US could strong arm the UK and Germany into the same agreement China's economy would be faced with a massive reconfiguration that would give an advantage back to the West, which would seem to suit the ethnocentrics as much as the humanitarians.
Of course, there are a thousand problems with implementing something this massive, and at every turn conservatism and big business would be standing in the way; ultimately to their own harm and the harm of all of us.
But it's interesting to think of, nonetheless.
lol.
Also I keep getting infractions for being mean...
I sense a bias.
Well that post was pretty dark. Not mean necessarily. But maybe you're turning your observations into absolutes. That can make ones observations less accurate and I can see where that could come across as mean.
Or maybe there is a bias. Tough to tell sometimes.
Well that post was pretty dark. Not mean necessarily. But maybe you're turning your observations into absolutes. That can make ones observations less accurate and I can see where that could come across as mean.
Or maybe there is a bias. Tough to tell sometimes.
nah I got an infraction for calling Apple ][ immature...and a nutcase.
http://forums.appleinsider.com/showthread.php?p=1994146
I was so enraged around the time that the iPad 2 was released and I sent him a polite email complaining about Chinese scalpers who were infesting Apple stores. That was the only email that I ever sent him. I never did get any reply from that mail. I wasn't expecting one either.
Probably because he realized through your writing that you are an immature nutcase.
And you're like 60.
------------------
but yea...I have a bleak impression of the human race...and it keeps getting worse year after year...not sure if it's reality getting worse and I'm just observing it or if year after year I am becoming a more cynical human being.
nah I got an infraction for calling Apple ][ immature...and a nutcase.
http://forums.appleinsider.com/showthread.php?p=1994146
------------------
but yea...I have a bleak impression of the human race...and it keeps getting worse year after year...not sure if it's reality getting worse and I'm just observing it or if year after year I am becoming a more cynical human being.
Well you're not supposed to call people names like nutcase. Even if they are.
Wow, I find it quite hard to believe he's 60. Or even 30.
Edit: sometimes when things seem bleak in the world the best thing to do is help someone else. Read a book to a child, help an elder person in some way. It won't change the world necessarily, but it can change your world. And theirs. And maybe that is helpful to the world at large.
Or maybe go bungie jumping or skydiving.
If the numbers about Android are to be believed, then Apple is not top dog. And their responsibility as a public corporation is to act in the best interests of shareholders. That has always been their responsibility.
Social responsibility, at a minimum, is an incredible marketing tool. It is not without value to shareholders.
Social responsibility also protects against litigation.
One has to compare the long-term strategic marketing impact and legal savings of a company's policies against short term costs to determine whether the company is acting in the best interest of shareholders.
I'd say Apple are doing a good job, but they can continue to improve in this regard.
...the tech media and "USA only" honks lather up over Apple abusing the workers and how they should be making all their stuff in their USA, etc...
you forgot apples competitors (wankers) who are failing miserably, whose only means of 'competing' is to pay trolls in an attempt to tarnish the apple name, hoping to drive down the share price.
that would happen with other companies, but i think apple is a pretty ethical company with a very strong foundation and a solid product. they'll be around long after these companies are gone and forgotten.
Social responsibility, at a minimum, is an incredible marketing tool. It is not without value to shareholders.
Social responsibility also protects against litigation.
One has to compare the long-term strategic marketing impact and legal savings of a company's policies against short term costs to determine whether the company is acting in the best interest of shareholders.
I'd say Apple are doing a good job, but they can continue to improve in this regard.
Yea I don't get why Apple is seemingly at the center of this shit.
Well you're not supposed to call people names like nutcase. Even if they are.
Wow, I find it quite hard to believe he's 60. Or even 30.
Edit: sometimes when things seem bleak in the world the best thing to do is help someone else. Read a book to a child, help an elder person in some way. It won't change the world necessarily, but it can change your world. And theirs. And maybe that is helpful to the world at large.
Or maybe go bungie jumping or skydiving.
Yea I know...I just feel that I am growing increasingly nihilistic...of sorts.
What these guys don't understand is that they are better off working for Apple's supplier than they are doing other jobs, or more likely, being unemployed. They should be grateful that Apple hires them.
Yes, I agree....I also agree that life under slavery in the United States wasn't so bad either. The workers were fed, clothed, received free housing and got to work outside. And all those sex workers that cater to sex tourism in places like Thailand should thank their lucky stars also. Instead of having to do hard labor on a farm, they get to work in a nice nightclub and lie on their backs. What a great life!
Increase labor costs so that Apple can FINALLY see why they need to open a USA MANUFACTURING PLANT.
MORE STRIKES NEEDS TO HAPPEN!
MORE JOBS IN THE USA IS NEEDED!!
AMERICA ... F*** YEAH!
Go GO GO GO GO GO!
Increase labor costs so that Apple can FINALLY see why they need to open a USA MANUFACTURING PLANT.
MORE STRIKES NEEDS TO HAPPEN!
MORE JOBS IN THE USA IS NEEDED!!
AMERICA ... F*** YEAH!
Well go ahead and hold your breath. Those jobs aren't coming back. We need to invent new ones.
The puffs over here really don't seem to get that a bad job over there, is better than NO job over there.. Who are we to try to tell other people how to live.. Working at this factory is probably a really good job to have...
"3,000-worker plant provides Apple and IBM with components, including keyboards."
In a statement regarding the issue, the rights group called on Apple to "take responsibility, as there are more than 300 workers working on the Apple keyboard assembly line."
So 300 hundred work on Apple products, out of 3000, and Apple is responsible for the working conditions???
EVERYTHING is run by the Chinese government, if the conditions are bad, blame the Chinese government, not Apple..
Wrong. The problem isn't the presence of government, it's the lack of presence. The conditions in Chinese factories are a direct result of not enough effective regulation.
Wrong. The problem isn't the presence of government, it's the lack of presence. The conditions in Chinese factories are a direct result of not enough effective regulation.
Amen brother.