I have seen a lot of people making arguments about China and working conditions, and calling out to bring the jobs back to America. People have talked about unions and the good and the bad of them. One point however seems to have been missed, We did this to ourselves.
It used to be the big box stores still sold made in america, but once cheap labor could be found else where we got lower prices. Nobody said anything about jobs here, people still bought. Save five bucks cost a fellow American their job.
This did not happen over night. It did not happen because of the top 1. It happened because we proved to the people making the money that they could make more if they used foreign labor and we would not give a shit so long as we could save a buck.
Of course the working conditions are worse, they have little to no protection, They have no need for it, until very recently there was plenty of workers to use as they saw fit. Once China is used up it will move elsewhere, don't expect it to come back to the U.S. unless people take the first step and the majority buys from the U.S. and is willing to pay the money to bring it back.
Who said they did. This could be like those stories of asshole retail managers at any company. Rarely is that jerk the norm. Generally it is a bad apple that is 1 in 100 or more but gets hyped up because it gets page hits cause no one likes a douchebag boss.
You assume that the unions in places like China actually do any real good, rather than being just a tool of said repressive dictatorship to make workers think anyone gives a crap about them.
I actually didn't say they did. Or didn't. The question I was answering was about" someone explain to me why is it apples problem..." paraphrasing.
I did say in the edited part of that post that I hope apple takes the lead on this issue. They have already but I hope they stay on it.
Some people here are not very realistic minded, though they have no problems with being hypocritical, since I'm assuming that these people buy and own Apple devices, this being an Apple forum and all.
How many people does Foxconn employ again? If you don't know, then go look it up. And that's just one of Apple's contractors. As if a similar sized operation is ever going to be set up in the USA. You're dreaming.
If you're some holier than thou person who likes to whine about Apple and China, then put your money where your whiny mouth is, and don't buy anymore Apple products or any other products from any manufacturer that makes their stuff in China. You are part of the problem that you whine about, so you can't really complain about it, when you yourself is guilty of contributing to it.
As for me, I don't really give a shit, because I'm a pragmatist and not an unrealistic hypocrite.
Instead of whining and moaning about it, go start your own computer company and make everything in the USA and pay your hundreds of thousands of workers real good. Give them all extra long vacations and first rate health benefits, since you're such a nice employer. You could even hire some people to give your workers backrubs and foot massages during their breaks, since you care so much. Then release your product and have it compete against everybody else's product which is made in China. We'll see how long your company lasts.
I don't care if Apple uses prison labor to make my next iPad 3, as long as the quality remains top notch.
Good job in one thread you were able to sound like an asshole twice.
And by that measure - if you buy from a company that hires a company that treat people like shit you are personally part of the problem, too. Not comfortable but true.
I agree on all counts. That's another reason that apple should push as hard as they can. I think they've taken the lead. The part of my post you edited gave some reasons for apple to take some responsibility but the main reason for me is that I don't want to hire dirtbags...
IMO, a big "Made in the USA" campaign is sorely needed.
I prefer to buy American goods. We still make cars and computers. And food. I'd like to see a "Made in America" label displayed in prominent locations to make the choices easier.
We've been over this before. It isn't. And I agree with you.
While Apple uses the product(s) made by this company, it neither owns the company nor is responsible to/for the employees.
Others would do well to keep in mind that US work standards do NOT apply in China (or any other country for that matter). What it acceptable in China may or not be acceptable here, and neither Apple nor the US Bureau of Labour can or should interfere.
Again, consider how Americans would feel if other countries attempted to intervene in US work practices and/or conditions.
The us bureau of labor has nothing to do with this. If china wants to work with apple and apple wants to be in china then they should and will negotiate terms, effectively, as things progress. I for one hope decent working conditions are part of that. If china doesn't like it they can tell apple to leave. If companies from other countries come to the U.S. And have demands as to work practices and/or conditions, I have no problem with that. We don't have to agree or work with them. Just like china doesn't have to agree to what apple wants.
The us bureau of labor has nothing to do with this. If china wants to work with apple and apple wants to be in china then they should and will negotiate terms, effectively, as things progress. I for one hope decent working conditions are part of that. If china doesn't like it they can tell apple to leave. If companies from other countries come to the U.S. And have demands as to work practices and/or conditions, I have no problem with that. We don't have to agree or work with them. Just like china doesn't have to agree to what apple wants.
Decent working conditions? By who's standards? Since it's China, your standards and hopes are irrelevant.
What these guys don't understand is that they are better off working for Apple's supplier than they are doing other jobs, or more likely, being unemployed. They should be grateful that Apple hires them.
That's not true. In general, Chinese people now have more employment choices than ever before, because of their surging economy.
I agree on all counts. That's another reason that apple should push as hard as they can. I think they've taken the lead. The part of my post you edited gave some reasons for apple to take some responsibility but the main reason for me is that I don't want to hire dirtbags...
Yes. In truth we should probably all take a little bit more responsibility. As end consumers the power lies with us as a group and us as individual. I know this is virtually impossible to live by, specially when times are hard. Which ultimately is where the question of governance comes in.... (trails off as visions of another futile political thread looms)
I have seen a lot of people making arguments about China and working conditions, and calling out to bring the jobs back to America. People have talked about unions and the good and the bad of them. One point however seems to have been missed, We did this to ourselves.
It used to be the big box stores still sold made in america, but once cheap labor could be found else where we got lower prices. Nobody said anything about jobs here, people still bought. Save five bucks cost a fellow American their job.
This did not happen over night. It did not happen because of the top 1. It happened because we proved to the people making the money that they could make more if they used foreign labor and we would not give a shit so long as we could save a buck.
I've been saying that for years. There have been a number of factors which have ruined our competitiveness:
1. The drive toward buying everything cheaper - no matter what the consequences. Walmart is now the largest company in the world - based solely on the premise that if you can buy something for a penny less than somewhere else that you should. Quality doesn't matter. Service doesn't matter. Nothing matters but shaving a few pennies off.
2. We've been willing to sacrifice health and safety to saving money. Every time I see another story about poisoned products coming out of China (toothpaste, infant formula, children's jewelry, and so on), I wonder what it's going to take to wake us up. Apparently, there isn't a force big enough to do it.
3. Legal matters. Our liability system is way out of control - which adds immensely to the cost of products manufactured in the U.S. I don't think anyone has argued for not holding people responsible when they've actually done something wrong, but it has turned into a big lottery.
4. Government matters. Our government rolled over and played dead in the 80's, 90's, and first decade of this century and allowed Asia to eat our lunch. No effort to enforce fair trade laws. No effort to enforce safety laws. There was a great deal of pressure from businesses to allow ANY imports, as long as they were cheap (under the premise that the ability to buy 'cheap' was good for American business. Unfortunately, we're now learning that that is true only in the short run).
5. Fiscal matters. We allowed China to blatantly manipulate its currency for the past 3 decades, costing us billions of dollars in GNP and taxes as well as many millions of jobs. But it was good for importing businesses, so it was allowed. Now, it may well be too late to force China to allow their currency to float - although we should still be pushing a lot harder than we are.
Yes. In truth we should probably all take a little bit more responsibility. As end consumers the power lies with us as a group and us as individual. I know this is virtually impossible to live by, specially when times are hard. Which ultimately is where the question of governance comes in.... (trails off as visions of another futile political thread looms)
Ya, it's a tough row to hoe.
Enjoy your holiday if you have one. Enjoy your day if you don't.
Someone explain to me why it is Apple's responsibility to oversee another country's work environment. Apple hired them to produce a product in return for payment thats it. Its not their responsibility to "babysit" a work ethic in another country. If they can't get the job done, get another company in China to do it. Let the Chinese fix worker problems in China.
So, if you know you are hiring a company to build your product you have no responsibility as to how the product is manufactured? You would have loved it about a hundred years ago in the US with all that slave and child labor.
If the $15 shirt had a big placard next to it saying, "This shirt is made with foreign labor--buy it, and your job is next to go overseas" I wonder how that would affect sales. Tie an action to a concrete result.
Would people then get it?
The problem is the shirt made in the US would have to be priced at least about $30-$45 Dollars. Levi's is doing this with some of their jeans. We will see how successful they can be at selling US-made products.
I've been saying that for years. There have been a number of factors which have ruined our competitiveness:
1. The drive toward buying everything cheaper - no matter what the consequences. Walmart is now the largest company in the world - based solely on the premise that if you can buy something for a penny less than somewhere else that you should. Quality doesn't matter. Service doesn't matter. Nothing matters but shaving a few pennies off.
2. We've been willing to sacrifice health and safety to saving money. Every time I see another story about poisoned products coming out of China (toothpaste, infant formula, children's jewelry, and so on), I wonder what it's going to take to wake us up. Apparently, there isn't a force big enough to do it.
3. Legal matters. Our liability system is way out of control - which adds immensely to the cost of products manufactured in the U.S. I don't think anyone has argued for not holding people responsible when they've actually done something wrong, but it has turned into a big lottery.
4. Government matters. Our government rolled over and played dead in the 80's, 90's, and first decade of this century and allowed Asia to eat our lunch. No effort to enforce fair trade laws. No effort to enforce safety laws. There was a great deal of pressure from businesses to allow ANY imports, as long as they were cheap (under the premise that the ability to buy 'cheap' was good for American business. Unfortunately, we're now learning that that is true only in the short run).
5. Fiscal matters. We allowed China to blatantly manipulate its currency for the past 3 decades, costing us billions of dollars in GNP and taxes as well as many millions of jobs. But it was good for importing businesses, so it was allowed. Now, it may well be too late to force China to allow their currency to float - although we should still be pushing a lot harder than we are.
The most important aspect is the so called Free Trade Agreements. In the eighties and nineties US companies were making more money then any other time in the Countries history. More millionaires were created then any other time. The so called american companies got greedy, and decided they'd like to not hire americans even though most of their products were being sold to americans and they were quite profitable.
So, they used their new found wealth and lobbied to do away with import tariffs that since this Country was founded protected american workers from having to compete unfairly against subsidized work forces like those in China. NAFTA was sold to us on the premise that it would help the Mexican, Canadian, and American economies by allowing goods from the respective Countries to flow freely over the borders where before an import tax had to be paid. What really happened, however, is instead of Mexican and Canadian manufactured goods coming into the Country (and our goods going into their Countries), really goods from China are shipped into Canada and Mexico and allowed to freely pass into America.
Within five years of NAFTA being passed millions of american manufacturing jobs went overseas to China and the associated wealth along with it. China is now loaning the US money. It is kind of ironic because the US used to safeguard certain technology from going to China. For instance, Apple couldn't sell the original G4 Power Macs in Countries like China for security reasons, much less even dream about having such technology be build there. We didn't want the Chinese to have access to this technology. Now all the sensitive technology is build in China, allowing our systems to easily be hacked because most of our electronics are built in China.
The import taxes protected american workers, provided wages, which were spend on other american products and services, and provided taxes used to pay for government services. Now people are broke, local businesses are closing, and the government is broke.
You want to make America strong again, the Free Trade Agreements have to either be axed all together or modified to only allow goods actually produced in Countries like Canada and Mexico to pass freely over the border. Americans can't compete fairly with what essentially amounts to a slave work force.
Another irony is if you compare the prices of goods produced locally before being shipped to China, and now after being shipped to China, the prices, after being adjusted for inflation, have not dropped.
The most important aspect is the so called Free Trade Agreements. In the eighties and nineties US companies were making more money then any other time in the Countries history. More millionaires were created then any other time. The so called american companies got greedy, and decided they'd like to not hire americans even though most of their products were being sold to americans and they were quite profitable.
So, they used their new found wealth and lobbied to do away with import tariffs that since this Country was founded protected american workers from having to compete unfairly against subsidized work forces like those in China. NAFTA was sold to us on the premise that it would help the Mexican, Canadian, and American economies by allowing goods from the respective Countries to flow freely over the borders where before an import tax had to be paid. What really happened, however, is instead of Mexican and Canadian manufactured goods coming into the Country (and our goods going into their Countries), really goods from China are shipped into Canada and Mexico and allowed to freely pass into America.
Within five years of NAFTA being passed millions of american manufacturing jobs went overseas to China and the associated wealth along with it. China is now loaning the US money. It is kind of ironic because the US used to safeguard certain technology from going to China. For instance, Apple couldn't sell the original G4 Power Macs in Countries like China for security reasons, much less even dream about having such technology be build there. We didn't want the Chinese to have access to this technology. Now all the sensitive technology is build in China, allowing our systems to easily be hacked because most of our electronics are built in China.
The import taxes protected american workers, provided wages, which were spend on other american products and services, and provided taxes used to pay for government services. Now people are broke, local businesses are closing, and the government is broke.
You want to make America strong again, the Free Trade Agreements have to either be axed all together or modified to only allow goods actually produced in Countries like Canada and Mexico to pass freely over the border. Americans can't compete fairly with what essentially amounts to a slave work force.
Another irony is if you compare the prices of goods produced locally before being shipped to China, and now after being shipped to China, the prices, after being adjusted for inflation, have not dropped.
That's no longer true. In some provinces of China, there are actually shortages of skilled workers and there are mass migrations going on. You can see the impact on wages and working conditions - wages are already on their way up and working conditions are improving - not as much because of unions as because they're running out of unemployed workers.
Note, however, that only 1/10 of the workers are working on the line making keyboards for Apple. And they may be making other products on that line, as well. So why is Apple being singled out?
Oh, yeah. Because Apple is one of the few companies which cares. The last time this came up, it turned out that suppliers told the press that Apple was the ONLY U.S. manufacturer that bothered to audit them at all.
It's called 'riding on someone else's coat-tails'. Pretending that Apple is involved suddenly gets lots of attention - whether it's true or not.
Note, however, that Apple has taken action with the ones who really are suppliers. Do we have any evidence that HP, Dell, IBM, Toshiba, etc have done anything? (Keeping in mind that the suppliers themselves said that Apple is the only one who even audited them, much less required changes).
So how many audits has HP done? Dell? Toshiba?
Not going to happen. Aside from the 10:1 difference in direct labor rates, the U.S. is vastly more expensive than Asia. Labor rules, liability concerns, environmental rules, overheads, OSHA, financial rules, etc all make it extremely expensive to have a major electronics manufacturer here. Even if Apple completely automated their production and didn't use any direct labor, it would be more expensive here due to the above.
That's not even close to being true. The thing that matters the most is maximizing shareholder satisfaction. Perhaps in most cases, that involves maximizing profits, but not always. Look at Ben & Jerry's, for example. Or any of the other companies which offer non-financial reasons to own the stock. Many people will consider a company's environmental record when investing. And Apple's record is far better than most.
You're mistaken - both with U.S. history and Asian history. Unions tend to have only a short term impact on wages and working conditions. It's macroeconomic factors that matter. Look at China. Unions were nothing more than Government control mechanism - until worker shortages started to show up. At that point, wages and working conditions started to improve. The union really had nothing to do with the end result, although it may have sped things up slightly.
And most of the U.S. working condition laws were not fostered by the unions, but rather by the government's perception of what working people wanted. Again, the unions possibly helped it to happen more quickly, but it would have happened, anyway. Today, only a very small percentage of employees are unionized. If unions were the cause of working conditions, why haven't they reverted to pre-union conditions?
Furthermore, a large percentage of union employees don't really get anything. I lost a job in college because I was required to join a union and give them a portion of my pay - even though it was a minimum wage job. A lot of union workers are in the same position - no choice but to join the union.
And that's why unions no longer have the influence they once had. They have become all about job security and selfish needs (as well as enriching union leadership). I worked for a company where I couldn't replace a light bulb in a desk lamp without filling out a work ticket and having a union electrician (about $50 per hour at the time) come do the work. It cost the company $100 to replace a $1 light bulb (not to mention the 3 days that I didn't have a desk lamp).
There are lots of reasons that never caught on:
1. Mass retailers like Wal-mart have nothing to offer the consumer but a lower price, so they'll do whatever it takes to reduce the price. They don't want consumers to know where the products are coming from.
2. We no longer have the ability to manufacture many items in quantity. I tried to find an American made fishing rod and reel at one time - and it was amazing how difficult this was (surprisingly, the reel was easier than the rod).
3. The cost of most American-made items is far higher than imported items due to the reasons given above. How many people are willing to pay a 150% premium for patio furniture (I did at one point, so I know how much more it was). Or a 100% premium for a fishing rod? Or a 200% premium for clothing?
You are so full of it on your view on unions it's hysterical. Not to mention your full of yourself. The main reason for low union membership in the UFSA is the laws enacted by the Reagan extreme right-wing regime culminating with human rights abuses such as " right to work " states or as I say " Arbeit Macht Frei" states, they are basically one and the same in hypocrisy and human rights abuse and criminal intent.
The Chinese as the Russians are woefully flirting with repeating history by installing a Tzar in the latter and Mandarins in the first both will inevitably be dealt with in the same way as in the past.
As for the self serving oligarchy here in our so called western democracies well echoes of Robespierre will most likely be the answer for our financial criminals. The only way to save ourselves from having to relive this in endless cycles is to espouse true democratic socialism based on a by demand then supply world economic model that is both fair and sustainable to the whole of humanity. People like you can be re-educated rehabilitated or interned to protect us from your form of sociopathic psychosis.
Beginnings of this is already all around us if your are willing to see the oncoming freight train. Worker revolts in China, Arab spring uprisings, Occupy the world, Anonymous , etc., etc.
Ah what the hell just ignore the the horn, you'll be just fine.
I've been saying that for years. There have been a number of factors which have ruined our competitiveness:
1. The drive toward buying everything cheaper - no matter what the consequences. Walmart is now the largest company in the world - based solely on the premise that if you can buy something for a penny less than somewhere else that you should. Quality doesn't matter. Service doesn't matter. Nothing matters but shaving a few pennies off.
2. We've been willing to sacrifice health and safety to saving money. Every time I see another story about poisoned products coming out of China (toothpaste, infant formula, children's jewelry, and so on), I wonder what it's going to take to wake us up. Apparently, there isn't a force big enough to do it.
3. Legal matters. Our liability system is way out of control - which adds immensely to the cost of products manufactured in the U.S. I don't think anyone has argued for not holding people responsible when they've actually done something wrong, but it has turned into a big lottery.
4. Government matters. Our government rolled over and played dead in the 80's, 90's, and first decade of this century and allowed Asia to eat our lunch. No effort to enforce fair trade laws. No effort to enforce safety laws. There was a great deal of pressure from businesses to allow ANY imports, as long as they were cheap (under the premise that the ability to buy 'cheap' was good for American business. Unfortunately, we're now learning that that is true only in the short run).
5. Fiscal matters. We allowed China to blatantly manipulate its currency for the past 3 decades, costing us billions of dollars in GNP and taxes as well as many millions of jobs. But it was good for importing businesses, so it was allowed. Now, it may well be too late to force China to allow their currency to float - although we should still be pushing a lot harder than we are.
I wouldn't be is such a hurry to criticize any country about safety issues. There a literally thousand of product recalls daily and they are right around your corner. http://www.foodsafety.gov/index.html
Comments
I have seen a lot of people making arguments about China and working conditions, and calling out to bring the jobs back to America. People have talked about unions and the good and the bad of them. One point however seems to have been missed, We did this to ourselves.
It used to be the big box stores still sold made in america, but once cheap labor could be found else where we got lower prices. Nobody said anything about jobs here, people still bought. Save five bucks cost a fellow American their job.
This did not happen over night. It did not happen because of the top 1. It happened because we proved to the people making the money that they could make more if they used foreign labor and we would not give a shit so long as we could save a buck.
Of course the working conditions are worse, they have little to no protection, They have no need for it, until very recently there was plenty of workers to use as they saw fit. Once China is used up it will move elsewhere, don't expect it to come back to the U.S. unless people take the first step and the majority buys from the U.S. and is willing to pay the money to bring it back.
Exactly. Apple isn't the problem. We all are.
Who said they did. This could be like those stories of asshole retail managers at any company. Rarely is that jerk the norm. Generally it is a bad apple that is 1 in 100 or more but gets hyped up because it gets page hits cause no one likes a douchebag boss.
You assume that the unions in places like China actually do any real good, rather than being just a tool of said repressive dictatorship to make workers think anyone gives a crap about them.
I actually didn't say they did. Or didn't. The question I was answering was about" someone explain to me why is it apples problem..." paraphrasing.
I did say in the edited part of that post that I hope apple takes the lead on this issue. They have already but I hope they stay on it.
Some people here are not very realistic minded, though they have no problems with being hypocritical, since I'm assuming that these people buy and own Apple devices, this being an Apple forum and all.
How many people does Foxconn employ again? If you don't know, then go look it up. And that's just one of Apple's contractors. As if a similar sized operation is ever going to be set up in the USA. You're dreaming.
If you're some holier than thou person who likes to whine about Apple and China, then put your money where your whiny mouth is, and don't buy anymore Apple products or any other products from any manufacturer that makes their stuff in China. You are part of the problem that you whine about, so you can't really complain about it, when you yourself is guilty of contributing to it.
As for me, I don't really give a shit, because I'm a pragmatist and not an unrealistic hypocrite.
Instead of whining and moaning about it, go start your own computer company and make everything in the USA and pay your hundreds of thousands of workers real good. Give them all extra long vacations and first rate health benefits, since you're such a nice employer. You could even hire some people to give your workers backrubs and foot massages during their breaks, since you care so much. Then release your product and have it compete against everybody else's product which is made in China. We'll see how long your company lasts.
I don't care if Apple uses prison labor to make my next iPad 3, as long as the quality remains top notch.
Good job in one thread you were able to sound like an asshole twice.
And by that measure - if you buy from a company that hires a company that treat people like shit you are personally part of the problem, too. Not comfortable but true.
I agree on all counts. That's another reason that apple should push as hard as they can. I think they've taken the lead. The part of my post you edited gave some reasons for apple to take some responsibility but the main reason for me is that I don't want to hire dirtbags...
IMO, a big "Made in the USA" campaign is sorely needed.
I prefer to buy American goods. We still make cars and computers. And food. I'd like to see a "Made in America" label displayed in prominent locations to make the choices easier.
Here ya go:
We've been over this before. It isn't. And I agree with you.
While Apple uses the product(s) made by this company, it neither owns the company nor is responsible to/for the employees.
Others would do well to keep in mind that US work standards do NOT apply in China (or any other country for that matter). What it acceptable in China may or not be acceptable here, and neither Apple nor the US Bureau of Labour can or should interfere.
Again, consider how Americans would feel if other countries attempted to intervene in US work practices and/or conditions.
The us bureau of labor has nothing to do with this. If china wants to work with apple and apple wants to be in china then they should and will negotiate terms, effectively, as things progress. I for one hope decent working conditions are part of that. If china doesn't like it they can tell apple to leave. If companies from other countries come to the U.S. And have demands as to work practices and/or conditions, I have no problem with that. We don't have to agree or work with them. Just like china doesn't have to agree to what apple wants.
The us bureau of labor has nothing to do with this. If china wants to work with apple and apple wants to be in china then they should and will negotiate terms, effectively, as things progress. I for one hope decent working conditions are part of that. If china doesn't like it they can tell apple to leave. If companies from other countries come to the U.S. And have demands as to work practices and/or conditions, I have no problem with that. We don't have to agree or work with them. Just like china doesn't have to agree to what apple wants.
Decent working conditions? By who's standards? Since it's China, your standards and hopes are irrelevant.
Decent working conditions? By who's standards? Since it's China, your standards and hopes are irrelevant.
The standards are developing according to apples audits, worker negotiations with their direct employer, public demands, things like that.
My standards and hopes have never been irrelevant. Speak for yourself.
What these guys don't understand is that they are better off working for Apple's supplier than they are doing other jobs, or more likely, being unemployed. They should be grateful that Apple hires them.
That's not true. In general, Chinese people now have more employment choices than ever before, because of their surging economy.
I agree on all counts. That's another reason that apple should push as hard as they can. I think they've taken the lead. The part of my post you edited gave some reasons for apple to take some responsibility but the main reason for me is that I don't want to hire dirtbags...
Yes. In truth we should probably all take a little bit more responsibility. As end consumers the power lies with us as a group and us as individual. I know this is virtually impossible to live by, specially when times are hard. Which ultimately is where the question of governance comes in.... (trails off as visions of another futile political thread looms)
I have seen a lot of people making arguments about China and working conditions, and calling out to bring the jobs back to America. People have talked about unions and the good and the bad of them. One point however seems to have been missed, We did this to ourselves.
It used to be the big box stores still sold made in america, but once cheap labor could be found else where we got lower prices. Nobody said anything about jobs here, people still bought. Save five bucks cost a fellow American their job.
This did not happen over night. It did not happen because of the top 1. It happened because we proved to the people making the money that they could make more if they used foreign labor and we would not give a shit so long as we could save a buck.
I've been saying that for years. There have been a number of factors which have ruined our competitiveness:
1. The drive toward buying everything cheaper - no matter what the consequences. Walmart is now the largest company in the world - based solely on the premise that if you can buy something for a penny less than somewhere else that you should. Quality doesn't matter. Service doesn't matter. Nothing matters but shaving a few pennies off.
2. We've been willing to sacrifice health and safety to saving money. Every time I see another story about poisoned products coming out of China (toothpaste, infant formula, children's jewelry, and so on), I wonder what it's going to take to wake us up. Apparently, there isn't a force big enough to do it.
3. Legal matters. Our liability system is way out of control - which adds immensely to the cost of products manufactured in the U.S. I don't think anyone has argued for not holding people responsible when they've actually done something wrong, but it has turned into a big lottery.
4. Government matters. Our government rolled over and played dead in the 80's, 90's, and first decade of this century and allowed Asia to eat our lunch. No effort to enforce fair trade laws. No effort to enforce safety laws. There was a great deal of pressure from businesses to allow ANY imports, as long as they were cheap (under the premise that the ability to buy 'cheap' was good for American business. Unfortunately, we're now learning that that is true only in the short run).
5. Fiscal matters. We allowed China to blatantly manipulate its currency for the past 3 decades, costing us billions of dollars in GNP and taxes as well as many millions of jobs. But it was good for importing businesses, so it was allowed. Now, it may well be too late to force China to allow their currency to float - although we should still be pushing a lot harder than we are.
Yes. In truth we should probably all take a little bit more responsibility. As end consumers the power lies with us as a group and us as individual. I know this is virtually impossible to live by, specially when times are hard. Which ultimately is where the question of governance comes in.... (trails off as visions of another futile political thread looms)
Ya, it's a tough row to hoe.
Enjoy your holiday if you have one. Enjoy your day if you don't.
Someone explain to me why it is Apple's responsibility to oversee another country's work environment. Apple hired them to produce a product in return for payment thats it. Its not their responsibility to "babysit" a work ethic in another country. If they can't get the job done, get another company in China to do it. Let the Chinese fix worker problems in China.
So, if you know you are hiring a company to build your product you have no responsibility as to how the product is manufactured? You would have loved it about a hundred years ago in the US with all that slave and child labor.
If the $15 shirt had a big placard next to it saying, "This shirt is made with foreign labor--buy it, and your job is next to go overseas" I wonder how that would affect sales. Tie an action to a concrete result.
Would people then get it?
The problem is the shirt made in the US would have to be priced at least about $30-$45 Dollars. Levi's is doing this with some of their jeans. We will see how successful they can be at selling US-made products.
I've been saying that for years. There have been a number of factors which have ruined our competitiveness:
1. The drive toward buying everything cheaper - no matter what the consequences. Walmart is now the largest company in the world - based solely on the premise that if you can buy something for a penny less than somewhere else that you should. Quality doesn't matter. Service doesn't matter. Nothing matters but shaving a few pennies off.
2. We've been willing to sacrifice health and safety to saving money. Every time I see another story about poisoned products coming out of China (toothpaste, infant formula, children's jewelry, and so on), I wonder what it's going to take to wake us up. Apparently, there isn't a force big enough to do it.
3. Legal matters. Our liability system is way out of control - which adds immensely to the cost of products manufactured in the U.S. I don't think anyone has argued for not holding people responsible when they've actually done something wrong, but it has turned into a big lottery.
4. Government matters. Our government rolled over and played dead in the 80's, 90's, and first decade of this century and allowed Asia to eat our lunch. No effort to enforce fair trade laws. No effort to enforce safety laws. There was a great deal of pressure from businesses to allow ANY imports, as long as they were cheap (under the premise that the ability to buy 'cheap' was good for American business. Unfortunately, we're now learning that that is true only in the short run).
5. Fiscal matters. We allowed China to blatantly manipulate its currency for the past 3 decades, costing us billions of dollars in GNP and taxes as well as many millions of jobs. But it was good for importing businesses, so it was allowed. Now, it may well be too late to force China to allow their currency to float - although we should still be pushing a lot harder than we are.
The most important aspect is the so called Free Trade Agreements. In the eighties and nineties US companies were making more money then any other time in the Countries history. More millionaires were created then any other time. The so called american companies got greedy, and decided they'd like to not hire americans even though most of their products were being sold to americans and they were quite profitable.
So, they used their new found wealth and lobbied to do away with import tariffs that since this Country was founded protected american workers from having to compete unfairly against subsidized work forces like those in China. NAFTA was sold to us on the premise that it would help the Mexican, Canadian, and American economies by allowing goods from the respective Countries to flow freely over the borders where before an import tax had to be paid. What really happened, however, is instead of Mexican and Canadian manufactured goods coming into the Country (and our goods going into their Countries), really goods from China are shipped into Canada and Mexico and allowed to freely pass into America.
Within five years of NAFTA being passed millions of american manufacturing jobs went overseas to China and the associated wealth along with it. China is now loaning the US money. It is kind of ironic because the US used to safeguard certain technology from going to China. For instance, Apple couldn't sell the original G4 Power Macs in Countries like China for security reasons, much less even dream about having such technology be build there. We didn't want the Chinese to have access to this technology. Now all the sensitive technology is build in China, allowing our systems to easily be hacked because most of our electronics are built in China.
The import taxes protected american workers, provided wages, which were spend on other american products and services, and provided taxes used to pay for government services. Now people are broke, local businesses are closing, and the government is broke.
You want to make America strong again, the Free Trade Agreements have to either be axed all together or modified to only allow goods actually produced in Countries like Canada and Mexico to pass freely over the border. Americans can't compete fairly with what essentially amounts to a slave work force.
Another irony is if you compare the prices of goods produced locally before being shipped to China, and now after being shipped to China, the prices, after being adjusted for inflation, have not dropped.
That's not true. In general, Chinese people now have more employment choices than ever before, because of their surging economy.
The most important aspect is the so called Free Trade Agreements. In the eighties and nineties US companies were making more money then any other time in the Countries history. More millionaires were created then any other time. The so called american companies got greedy, and decided they'd like to not hire americans even though most of their products were being sold to americans and they were quite profitable.
So, they used their new found wealth and lobbied to do away with import tariffs that since this Country was founded protected american workers from having to compete unfairly against subsidized work forces like those in China. NAFTA was sold to us on the premise that it would help the Mexican, Canadian, and American economies by allowing goods from the respective Countries to flow freely over the borders where before an import tax had to be paid. What really happened, however, is instead of Mexican and Canadian manufactured goods coming into the Country (and our goods going into their Countries), really goods from China are shipped into Canada and Mexico and allowed to freely pass into America.
Within five years of NAFTA being passed millions of american manufacturing jobs went overseas to China and the associated wealth along with it. China is now loaning the US money. It is kind of ironic because the US used to safeguard certain technology from going to China. For instance, Apple couldn't sell the original G4 Power Macs in Countries like China for security reasons, much less even dream about having such technology be build there. We didn't want the Chinese to have access to this technology. Now all the sensitive technology is build in China, allowing our systems to easily be hacked because most of our electronics are built in China.
The import taxes protected american workers, provided wages, which were spend on other american products and services, and provided taxes used to pay for government services. Now people are broke, local businesses are closing, and the government is broke.
You want to make America strong again, the Free Trade Agreements have to either be axed all together or modified to only allow goods actually produced in Countries like Canada and Mexico to pass freely over the border. Americans can't compete fairly with what essentially amounts to a slave work force.
Another irony is if you compare the prices of goods produced locally before being shipped to China, and now after being shipped to China, the prices, after being adjusted for inflation, have not dropped.
Good ol' USA.
That's no longer true. In some provinces of China, there are actually shortages of skilled workers and there are mass migrations going on. You can see the impact on wages and working conditions - wages are already on their way up and working conditions are improving - not as much because of unions as because they're running out of unemployed workers.
Note, however, that only 1/10 of the workers are working on the line making keyboards for Apple. And they may be making other products on that line, as well. So why is Apple being singled out?
Oh, yeah. Because Apple is one of the few companies which cares. The last time this came up, it turned out that suppliers told the press that Apple was the ONLY U.S. manufacturer that bothered to audit them at all.
It's called 'riding on someone else's coat-tails'. Pretending that Apple is involved suddenly gets lots of attention - whether it's true or not.
Note, however, that Apple has taken action with the ones who really are suppliers. Do we have any evidence that HP, Dell, IBM, Toshiba, etc have done anything? (Keeping in mind that the suppliers themselves said that Apple is the only one who even audited them, much less required changes).
So how many audits has HP done? Dell? Toshiba?
Not going to happen. Aside from the 10:1 difference in direct labor rates, the U.S. is vastly more expensive than Asia. Labor rules, liability concerns, environmental rules, overheads, OSHA, financial rules, etc all make it extremely expensive to have a major electronics manufacturer here. Even if Apple completely automated their production and didn't use any direct labor, it would be more expensive here due to the above.
That's not even close to being true. The thing that matters the most is maximizing shareholder satisfaction. Perhaps in most cases, that involves maximizing profits, but not always. Look at Ben & Jerry's, for example. Or any of the other companies which offer non-financial reasons to own the stock. Many people will consider a company's environmental record when investing. And Apple's record is far better than most.
You're mistaken - both with U.S. history and Asian history. Unions tend to have only a short term impact on wages and working conditions. It's macroeconomic factors that matter. Look at China. Unions were nothing more than Government control mechanism - until worker shortages started to show up. At that point, wages and working conditions started to improve. The union really had nothing to do with the end result, although it may have sped things up slightly.
And most of the U.S. working condition laws were not fostered by the unions, but rather by the government's perception of what working people wanted. Again, the unions possibly helped it to happen more quickly, but it would have happened, anyway. Today, only a very small percentage of employees are unionized. If unions were the cause of working conditions, why haven't they reverted to pre-union conditions?
Furthermore, a large percentage of union employees don't really get anything. I lost a job in college because I was required to join a union and give them a portion of my pay - even though it was a minimum wage job. A lot of union workers are in the same position - no choice but to join the union.
And that's why unions no longer have the influence they once had. They have become all about job security and selfish needs (as well as enriching union leadership). I worked for a company where I couldn't replace a light bulb in a desk lamp without filling out a work ticket and having a union electrician (about $50 per hour at the time) come do the work. It cost the company $100 to replace a $1 light bulb (not to mention the 3 days that I didn't have a desk lamp).
There are lots of reasons that never caught on:
1. Mass retailers like Wal-mart have nothing to offer the consumer but a lower price, so they'll do whatever it takes to reduce the price. They don't want consumers to know where the products are coming from.
2. We no longer have the ability to manufacture many items in quantity. I tried to find an American made fishing rod and reel at one time - and it was amazing how difficult this was (surprisingly, the reel was easier than the rod).
3. The cost of most American-made items is far higher than imported items due to the reasons given above. How many people are willing to pay a 150% premium for patio furniture (I did at one point, so I know how much more it was). Or a 100% premium for a fishing rod? Or a 200% premium for clothing?
You are so full of it on your view on unions it's hysterical. Not to mention your full of yourself. The main reason for low union membership in the UFSA is the laws enacted by the Reagan extreme right-wing regime culminating with human rights abuses such as " right to work " states or as I say " Arbeit Macht Frei" states, they are basically one and the same in hypocrisy and human rights abuse and criminal intent.
The Chinese as the Russians are woefully flirting with repeating history by installing a Tzar in the latter and Mandarins in the first both will inevitably be dealt with in the same way as in the past.
As for the self serving oligarchy here in our so called western democracies well echoes of Robespierre will most likely be the answer for our financial criminals. The only way to save ourselves from having to relive this in endless cycles is to espouse true democratic socialism based on a by demand then supply world economic model that is both fair and sustainable to the whole of humanity. People like you can be re-educated rehabilitated or interned to protect us from your form of sociopathic psychosis.
Beginnings of this is already all around us if your are willing to see the oncoming freight train. Worker revolts in China, Arab spring uprisings, Occupy the world, Anonymous , etc., etc.
Ah what the hell just ignore the the horn, you'll be just fine.
I've been saying that for years. There have been a number of factors which have ruined our competitiveness:
1. The drive toward buying everything cheaper - no matter what the consequences. Walmart is now the largest company in the world - based solely on the premise that if you can buy something for a penny less than somewhere else that you should. Quality doesn't matter. Service doesn't matter. Nothing matters but shaving a few pennies off.
2. We've been willing to sacrifice health and safety to saving money. Every time I see another story about poisoned products coming out of China (toothpaste, infant formula, children's jewelry, and so on), I wonder what it's going to take to wake us up. Apparently, there isn't a force big enough to do it.
3. Legal matters. Our liability system is way out of control - which adds immensely to the cost of products manufactured in the U.S. I don't think anyone has argued for not holding people responsible when they've actually done something wrong, but it has turned into a big lottery.
4. Government matters. Our government rolled over and played dead in the 80's, 90's, and first decade of this century and allowed Asia to eat our lunch. No effort to enforce fair trade laws. No effort to enforce safety laws. There was a great deal of pressure from businesses to allow ANY imports, as long as they were cheap (under the premise that the ability to buy 'cheap' was good for American business. Unfortunately, we're now learning that that is true only in the short run).
5. Fiscal matters. We allowed China to blatantly manipulate its currency for the past 3 decades, costing us billions of dollars in GNP and taxes as well as many millions of jobs. But it was good for importing businesses, so it was allowed. Now, it may well be too late to force China to allow their currency to float - although we should still be pushing a lot harder than we are.
I wouldn't be is such a hurry to criticize any country about safety issues. There a literally thousand of product recalls daily and they are right around your corner. http://www.foodsafety.gov/index.html
Maybe your car is on the list as well. http://www.recalls.gov/
And we worry about our neighbors half way around the world. Again, our backyards are just as filthy. http://usliberals.about.com/od/immig...lImmi.htm?rd=1