Maybe the forum on an Apple rumor site isn't the most popular place to question whether the ever increasing obsession with consumer products (even good ones, like Apple products) is slightly 'odd' or 'weird'.
Oh please. Enough with the psycobabble. Humans are social in nature and we like to do things as a group. Well, at least the majority of humans in the world and probably in inverse proportion to those who hang out in forums like this one
And veiled implications that consumerism = bad are stupid and just show gross ignorance of basic economics. Such populist rhetoric might make a good soundbite, and trite crap like it may have propelled liberal geniuses like Michael Moore and Bill Maher into that 1% territory they so enjoy railing against with the likes of the paid "occupy"ers, but it's still not smart.
Quote:
The fact that people here got so angry at ConradJoe's original post, the way other people actually compare lining up outside an Apple retail store with Woodstock and the Beatles, not to mention how reactionary and upset others got for simply questionings such rampant consumer lemming like behaviour is in itself really interesting and well worth staying around for.
You don't think Woodstock or the Beatles music are consumer products? Nice glasses you have on there - what shade are they? Rose? What an interesting choice!
People got angry at his original post because it was phrased in such a way as to ensure an emotional response. Why posters who have been here long enough to know better still engage him is what is getting annoying. Engage him if you want - heck, I did far longer than I thought I would when he resurfaced. Please - just don't quote troll's entire posts when replying to them. It's just lazy and inconsiderate to not trim your quotes in general - double so when wrestling with a pig.
As for the tired rhetoric betrayed by the use of phrases like "lemming", go look up logical fallacies. Take a guess which one you nailed with that lame attempt? Unsurprisingly it's the most often used one.
What has changed is the obsession with brands. Displaying a free Apple decal...no problem. But paying for the privilege of being a walking advertisement? I've never understood that.
I dunno - I never did get the whole alligator thing in the 80's either.
But with Apple, I don't mind associating myself with their logo (sticker on car, logo on shirt, etc.) because I identify with the Apple brand. Excellence, quality, focus on attention to detail. Longevity, value, elegance. Appreciation for, understanding of and relentless execution of detail. All things that resonate deeply - more so than a clothing manufacturer (esp. given the overall lack of quality in clothing these days - ugh)
And before the inane fanboi comments start flying, I have no problem ditching Apple in a New York minute (ha! See what I did there?) if someone starts playing the game better than they are.
I'm not holding my breath, mind you - but I wouldn't be opposed to it. I had no problem ditching them in the sucktacular 90's - only returning well after Steve's return and he had righted the sinking ship. Sadly, there don't seem to be ANY companies that have Apple's consumer focus and unwavering commitment to "sweating the small stuff" - even if they get beat up over it in the short term. Steve even shrugged it off in interviews as a necessary evil. Part of the process of greatness often starts with being misunderstood by those who haven't yet grasped the new ideas.
Want to ridicule stereotypical lemming behavior? Ridicule those who dismiss the "new" out of hand simply for being "new"....
Okay... we get it. You're brilliant and way too intelligent to talk to the rest of us because everything is so over our heads that we need you as an interpreter.
No, I just have a different sense of humour and a different way of looking at things. I've tried to explain it but it isn't easy when you guys still can't see the 'odd' 'weird' and 'funny' side of lining up outside a retail store for nothing new or exclusive outside of a promo t-shirt (regardless of whether or not Apple is the greatest and most exciting thing happening since Woodstock or FM radio).
All I've been trying to say is that 'yeah it is exciting', yet ALSO 'equally weird' and not even in a bad way. I have absolutely no problem with the whole launch being both exciting AND weird at the same time but for some reason you guys don't seem able to accept the possibility of that duality, You've felt the continual need to somehow justify the 'weird' or outright discount opposition by conveniently being 'offended' by the prospect of 'weird' but you really don't need to, it doesn't have to be one or the other and 'weird' doesn't need to be a bad thing.
I'm also not the one who suggested an opposing opinion to my own might be 'fucked', I only suggested that your opinion might be be a little narrow and even then I put that down to a potential bias based on your love of all things Apple rather than your actual intelligence.
Okay... we get it. You're brilliant and way too intelligent to talk to the rest of us because everything is so over our heads that we need you as an interpreter.
Yeah because that statement doesn't sound very judgemental and dismissive.
If I take the time and try to explain my position to you, I'm an intellectual snob, if I answer with insulting single sentence/word replies then I'm just a moron and a troll.
It's a great strategy, you're never wrong, you never have to consider someone else's opinion nor question the self righteousness of your own opinions.
Even better you can simply top the whole thing off with a disclaimer like "I could be wrong" and you're all set.
Yeah because that statement doesn't sound very judgemental and dismissive.
If I take the time and try to explain my position to you, I'm an intellectual snob, if I answer with insulting single sentence/word replies then I'm just a moron and a troll.
It's a great strategy, you're never wrong, you never have to consider someone else's opinion nor question the self righteousness of your own opinions.
Even better you can simply top the whole thing off with a disclaimer like "I could be wrong" and you're all set.
Perhaps you're the one who's brilliant
Oh cry me a river.
You can't even look at yourself for a minute.
The comments in your posts were not suggestions. They were not innuendo. Your comments straight out said that we just don't understand what CJ was trying to say... and to top it off you come right out and say that we are basically stupid for even considering to compare Apple with the Beatles and Woodstock,
Well, I got news for you pal. It seems that you are the one who doesn't even come close to getting it. CJ is here to disrupt. It wouldn't matter what he is trying to say. He is here to disrupt and disrupt only. He's not here for discussion or anything like that, he's just trying to be annoying.
I know you have tried to say that your nationality somehow or other makes you superior in your ability to detect sarcasm and somehow or other makes it easier for you to deflect criticism but all I see is someone trying their hardest to defend themselves from some perceived yet imaginary insult that never occurred... because you are just so damn sensitive and now you're hopping around like an injured bird.
Go back and read my first post, before the innuendo and condescending from BOTH of us.
I only wanted to point out that there was more than one way of looking at the whole GC launch and Apple enthusiasm in general, probably not a good idea to do it with sarcasm but hey, at least I genuinely attempted to explain and apologise for any offence taken.
I don't think I ever called anyone an idiot for comparing the GC opening to Woodstock, just that it was a pretty broad comparison to make, The main reason I can see for the comparison is that they both involved lining up for something you were excited about. I don't know though maybe you went to Woodstock for a free t-shirt and not the bands or maybe a whole heap of the most influential musicians of our time just happened to play a one off performance at the GC launch which the press forgot to mention.
I know it might be asking a bit much for you to see the whole 'ever expanding Apple pop culture phenomenon' in any way other than with positive enthusiasm, especially when you consider someone else's sarcastic suggestion of 'weirdo' as a ban-able insult yet your own sarcastic suggestion of 'my perspective being fucked' perfectly OK and therefore an imaginary insult. I'm not as cut up as you suggested though, just laughing at the ironic double standard.
At least go and read some other GC launch stories from other more mainstream publications and see that the 'weird' observation isn't something unique and only observed by people like me with possible 'fucked perspectives'. The mainstream media might not know the cultural importance of Apple like you do but it doesn't make their (or other peoples) opinions, any less valid. You can still be right if you want to be and nobody is expecting you to do anything as humble as admit to the mere possibility that a differing perspective might have some validity/merit.
secret goldfish, I see what you're saying, maybe even from your exact perspective, by virtue of my well-known abilities of empathic transference (kidding).
But for me it was never so much about someone calling the Apple fans weirdos -- that I can tolerate just fine -- it was about the vicious professional disrupterConradJoe calling that kid a weirdo right under his picture that should be making him a world symbol for clean-cut Apple fandom.
We've been used to CJ parasitizing and making a stink on nearly every thread, and maybe you haven't been following since he registered under his new name in September (? -- he and his posts have now been sent packing so I can't check; he's been here under other names for the whole time I've been around.) But it really gnawed on me that he would stoop to ruining this kid's day and maybe giving him a nice psychic scar for who knows how long just so he can wreck the thread in the first post where the kid would see it.
If it was some sincere cynic grousing about Apple fans in a less punch-in-the-gut way, I might have blown it off. But you took the tack of defending the arch villain.
From the UK it must look a bit strange. I thought the teenage girls screaming at the Fab Four were behaving strangely back in the early 60s. But Apple store openings are a bit more reasonable. I think they're great because you can look at them like art gallery openings that a lot of people get the aesthetics of. This is something new in cultural history -- enthusiasm for great tools. They're not there to buy passive TVs, they're buying network broadcasting and receiving terminals. I hope the crowds get bigger.
Yeah cool, I understand, lets just put an end to our misunderstandings and the whole debacle, like you mention, it was a trolling comment that set us all off originally.
We were having a good laugh together for a while there, I'd much rather go back to that than being 'smart arses' to one another.
We're all obviously pretty passionate about our Macs and Apple, let's concentrate on that.
I'm not actually English, but it was them who sent us to the other side of the world on convict ships quite some time ago, ironically enough, to a place with much better weather, more land and freedom from a class system, it's kinda like how you guys started in the US but with shackles. (unless of course your origins are African)
Based on a brain scan. So they can't help it. It's (gag) spiritual!
Cool link, thanks
They're beginning to flame each other in the talkback over there too. Some things are best left alone I'm thinking.
Then again it always makes for interesting debate, I grew up with a father who worked at IBM as a system engineer for 30 years and I had an interesting time trying to convince him that I needed a Mac one year into my art based degree. He was pretty good though once he saw what I was doing on it and totally gets why the Mac was the right thing for me.
He told me the other day that he was thinking of getting an Imac for my mum. I think it has more to do with wanting to be actually retired (not spending so much time maintaining PC's) than it does about becoming an Apple convert though.
Comments
That was offensive and unnecessary
Quoting him in entirety was unecessary
Offensive too
Maybe the forum on an Apple rumor site isn't the most popular place to question whether the ever increasing obsession with consumer products (even good ones, like Apple products) is slightly 'odd' or 'weird'.
Oh please. Enough with the psycobabble. Humans are social in nature and we like to do things as a group. Well, at least the majority of humans in the world and probably in inverse proportion to those who hang out in forums like this one
And veiled implications that consumerism = bad are stupid and just show gross ignorance of basic economics. Such populist rhetoric might make a good soundbite, and trite crap like it may have propelled liberal geniuses like Michael Moore and Bill Maher into that 1% territory they so enjoy railing against with the likes of the paid "occupy"ers, but it's still not smart.
The fact that people here got so angry at ConradJoe's original post, the way other people actually compare lining up outside an Apple retail store with Woodstock and the Beatles, not to mention how reactionary and upset others got for simply questionings such rampant consumer lemming like behaviour is in itself really interesting and well worth staying around for.
You don't think Woodstock or the Beatles music are consumer products? Nice glasses you have on there - what shade are they? Rose? What an interesting choice!
People got angry at his original post because it was phrased in such a way as to ensure an emotional response. Why posters who have been here long enough to know better still engage him is what is getting annoying. Engage him if you want - heck, I did far longer than I thought I would when he resurfaced. Please - just don't quote troll's entire posts when replying to them. It's just lazy and inconsiderate to not trim your quotes in general - double so when wrestling with a pig.
As for the tired rhetoric betrayed by the use of phrases like "lemming", go look up logical fallacies. Take a guess which one you nailed with that lame attempt? Unsurprisingly it's the most often used one.
What has changed is the obsession with brands. Displaying a free Apple decal...no problem. But paying for the privilege of being a walking advertisement? I've never understood that.
I dunno - I never did get the whole alligator thing in the 80's either.
But with Apple, I don't mind associating myself with their logo (sticker on car, logo on shirt, etc.) because I identify with the Apple brand. Excellence, quality, focus on attention to detail. Longevity, value, elegance. Appreciation for, understanding of and relentless execution of detail. All things that resonate deeply - more so than a clothing manufacturer (esp. given the overall lack of quality in clothing these days - ugh)
And before the inane fanboi comments start flying, I have no problem ditching Apple in a New York minute (ha! See what I did there?) if someone starts playing the game better than they are.
I'm not holding my breath, mind you - but I wouldn't be opposed to it. I had no problem ditching them in the sucktacular 90's - only returning well after Steve's return and he had righted the sinking ship. Sadly, there don't seem to be ANY companies that have Apple's consumer focus and unwavering commitment to "sweating the small stuff" - even if they get beat up over it in the short term. Steve even shrugged it off in interviews as a necessary evil. Part of the process of greatness often starts with being misunderstood by those who haven't yet grasped the new ideas.
Want to ridicule stereotypical lemming behavior? Ridicule those who dismiss the "new" out of hand simply for being "new"....
Okay... we get it. You're brilliant and way too intelligent to talk to the rest of us because everything is so over our heads that we need you as an interpreter.
No, I just have a different sense of humour and a different way of looking at things. I've tried to explain it but it isn't easy when you guys still can't see the 'odd' 'weird' and 'funny' side of lining up outside a retail store for nothing new or exclusive outside of a promo t-shirt (regardless of whether or not Apple is the greatest and most exciting thing happening since Woodstock or FM radio).
All I've been trying to say is that 'yeah it is exciting', yet ALSO 'equally weird' and not even in a bad way. I have absolutely no problem with the whole launch being both exciting AND weird at the same time but for some reason you guys don't seem able to accept the possibility of that duality, You've felt the continual need to somehow justify the 'weird' or outright discount opposition by conveniently being 'offended' by the prospect of 'weird' but you really don't need to, it doesn't have to be one or the other and 'weird' doesn't need to be a bad thing.
I'm also not the one who suggested an opposing opinion to my own might be 'fucked', I only suggested that your opinion might be be a little narrow and even then I put that down to a potential bias based on your love of all things Apple rather than your actual intelligence.
Of course I could be wrong
Okay... we get it. You're brilliant and way too intelligent to talk to the rest of us because everything is so over our heads that we need you as an interpreter.
Yeah because that statement doesn't sound very judgemental and dismissive.
If I take the time and try to explain my position to you, I'm an intellectual snob, if I answer with insulting single sentence/word replies then I'm just a moron and a troll.
It's a great strategy, you're never wrong, you never have to consider someone else's opinion nor question the self righteousness of your own opinions.
Even better you can simply top the whole thing off with a disclaimer like "I could be wrong" and you're all set.
Perhaps you're the one who's brilliant
Yeah because that statement doesn't sound very judgemental and dismissive.
If I take the time and try to explain my position to you, I'm an intellectual snob, if I answer with insulting single sentence/word replies then I'm just a moron and a troll.
It's a great strategy, you're never wrong, you never have to consider someone else's opinion nor question the self righteousness of your own opinions.
Even better you can simply top the whole thing off with a disclaimer like "I could be wrong" and you're all set.
Perhaps you're the one who's brilliant
Oh cry me a river.
You can't even look at yourself for a minute.
The comments in your posts were not suggestions. They were not innuendo. Your comments straight out said that we just don't understand what CJ was trying to say... and to top it off you come right out and say that we are basically stupid for even considering to compare Apple with the Beatles and Woodstock,
Well, I got news for you pal. It seems that you are the one who doesn't even come close to getting it. CJ is here to disrupt. It wouldn't matter what he is trying to say. He is here to disrupt and disrupt only. He's not here for discussion or anything like that, he's just trying to be annoying.
I know you have tried to say that your nationality somehow or other makes you superior in your ability to detect sarcasm and somehow or other makes it easier for you to deflect criticism but all I see is someone trying their hardest to defend themselves from some perceived yet imaginary insult that never occurred... because you are just so damn sensitive and now you're hopping around like an injured bird.
Get over yourself.
Go back and read my first post, before the innuendo and condescending from BOTH of us.
I only wanted to point out that there was more than one way of looking at the whole GC launch and Apple enthusiasm in general, probably not a good idea to do it with sarcasm but hey, at least I genuinely attempted to explain and apologise for any offence taken.
I don't think I ever called anyone an idiot for comparing the GC opening to Woodstock, just that it was a pretty broad comparison to make, The main reason I can see for the comparison is that they both involved lining up for something you were excited about. I don't know though maybe you went to Woodstock for a free t-shirt and not the bands or maybe a whole heap of the most influential musicians of our time just happened to play a one off performance at the GC launch which the press forgot to mention.
I know it might be asking a bit much for you to see the whole 'ever expanding Apple pop culture phenomenon' in any way other than with positive enthusiasm, especially when you consider someone else's sarcastic suggestion of 'weirdo' as a ban-able insult yet your own sarcastic suggestion of 'my perspective being fucked' perfectly OK and therefore an imaginary insult. I'm not as cut up as you suggested though, just laughing at the ironic double standard.
At least go and read some other GC launch stories from other more mainstream publications and see that the 'weird' observation isn't something unique and only observed by people like me with possible 'fucked perspectives'. The mainstream media might not know the cultural importance of Apple like you do but it doesn't make their (or other peoples) opinions, any less valid. You can still be right if you want to be and nobody is expecting you to do anything as humble as admit to the mere possibility that a differing perspective might have some validity/merit.
But for me it was never so much about someone calling the Apple fans weirdos -- that I can tolerate just fine -- it was about the vicious professional disrupter ConradJoe calling that kid a weirdo right under his picture that should be making him a world symbol for clean-cut Apple fandom.
We've been used to CJ parasitizing and making a stink on nearly every thread, and maybe you haven't been following since he registered under his new name in September (? -- he and his posts have now been sent packing so I can't check; he's been here under other names for the whole time I've been around.) But it really gnawed on me that he would stoop to ruining this kid's day and maybe giving him a nice psychic scar for who knows how long just so he can wreck the thread in the first post where the kid would see it.
If it was some sincere cynic grousing about Apple fans in a less punch-in-the-gut way, I might have blown it off. But you took the tack of defending the arch villain.
From the UK it must look a bit strange. I thought the teenage girls screaming at the Fab Four were behaving strangely back in the early 60s. But Apple store openings are a bit more reasonable. I think they're great because you can look at them like art gallery openings that a lot of people get the aesthetics of. This is something new in cultural history -- enthusiasm for great tools. They're not there to buy passive TVs, they're buying network broadcasting and receiving terminals. I hope the crowds get bigger.
We were having a good laugh together for a while there, I'd much rather go back to that than being 'smart arses' to one another.
We're all obviously pretty passionate about our Macs and Apple, let's concentrate on that.
I'm not actually English, but it was them who sent us to the other side of the world on convict ships quite some time ago, ironically enough, to a place with much better weather, more land and freedom from a class system, it's kinda like how you guys started in the US but with shackles. (unless of course your origins are African)
Edit: look what following a Gruber link to Cnet just turned up:
http://blogs.computerworld.com/18306...er_of_religion
Based on a brain scan. So they can't help it. It's (gag) spiritual!
Aha, way down there! I shoulda known by the humor . . .
Edit: look what following a Gruber link to Cnet just turned up:
http://blogs.computerworld.com/18306...er_of_religion
Based on a brain scan. So they can't help it. It's (gag) spiritual!
Cool link, thanks
They're beginning to flame each other in the talkback over there too. Some things are best left alone I'm thinking.
Then again it always makes for interesting debate, I grew up with a father who worked at IBM as a system engineer for 30 years and I had an interesting time trying to convince him that I needed a Mac one year into my art based degree. He was pretty good though once he saw what I was doing on it and totally gets why the Mac was the right thing for me.
He told me the other day that he was thinking of getting an Imac for my mum. I think it has more to do with wanting to be actually retired (not spending so much time maintaining PC's) than it does about becoming an Apple convert though.