Very political thread... the mixed-up picture didn't help...
Really? The mixed up picture caused you a lot of confusion? I guess any group of people can have their intelligence charted on a bell curve and there has to be somebody on each point of that curve huh?
How has our entitlement society created better workers?
Is the point of our culture to create the best workers, or to provide the best life?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bugsnw
There are so many variables to consider when discussing standards of living and keeping manufacturing jobs here.
Automated factories are expensive; sweatshops are cheap. Nope - just one. So long as we support regimes which treat human beings as flesh robots, no place where it's necessary to treat people as people can compete.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bugsnw
Don't forget that when Apple manages to make a world-class product such as an iPad cheaply, millions of Americans buy it and benefit. Our standard of living goes up, even if it's not reflected in wages, per se.
Don't forget that we're one species living on a single planet. Externalizing the death camp nightmare of Apple's manufacturing to a regime that tolerates such crimes moves the problem out of sight of Americans who choose not to see, but that's all. Americans have stuff, and Chinese live in hell. Having toys built with blood, tears, despair, and each produces a net lower standard of living for human beings in general.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bugsnw
Compare how someone in the middle class lived in the 1970s to 2012. Modern conveniences and all kinds of goods that increase our leisure time enjoyment.
We've temporarily improved our standard of living by reducing that of others. We've delighted in the monstrous imbalance we've created - we'll be less happy when the pendulum swings the other way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bugsnw
Jobs is right. Those jobs that demand long hours - in addition to being monotonous and likely unfulfilling - are not the kind of jobs that are easy to fill here. They are not coming back.
Nonsense. Jobs was, among other things, a sociopath. Do you think the 1% in America are unaware of China's shining example? Go talk to any Walmart employee and discover what's in store for the masses when the very few own the many.
Rumors about the wonders of automated manufacturing are what corporations who outsource their labor to wrecked economies and despotic regimes circulate to help us assuage our collective guilt. The quick answer to your question is that anything manufactured in China is made entirely by hand under conditions that make American prisons look like exclusive resorts.
American prisons look like exclusive resorts compared to a lot of places - both in America and elsewhere. That's part of the problem.
We've temporarily improved our standard of living by reducing that of others. We've delighted in the monstrous imbalance we've created - we'll be less happy when the pendulum swings the other way.
Whose standard was decreased? These workers are living lives far better than they were before they applied for and received these jobs, as are their families. At some point they will be undercut by the next economic miracle at which point China will be forced to invest more heavily in education and move up the economic ladder, just as the USA (and every other advanced economy in the world) did decades ago.
Argue though we may about Apple's overseas production -- which I consider scandalous, one more reason to look elsewhere (besides increasingly dumbed down, lowest-common-denominator products) -- no one can deny that an electronic consumable is just material, while a human life is precious. This inequality is forgotten in all the abstract debate about economics. When you assert that a life means something (as Jobs' life did, though what is for historians to debate), then the framework for the argumentation changes. There is no justification for wage slavery. Or for abandoning one's homeland to make a buck overseas. Or for, instead of investing more of the resulting profits to raise the QoL overseas and thereby wages, equalizing things, simply handing it out as CEO and shareholder rewards.
What is happening at Apple? Has it lost its collective mind? It is becoming another GE, ExxonBobil, Boeing, Halliburton, Goldman Sachs? I am so so sorry that among its many accomplishments, Apple could not see how to build an honestly humanistic company. Jobs doesn't get to do this one over. But maybe Apple still can...though its time is fast waning.
Whose standard was decreased? These workers are living lives far better than they were before they applied for and received these jobs, as are their families. At some point they will be undercut by the next economic miracle at which point China will be forced to invest more heavily in education and move up the economic ladder, just as the USA (and every other advanced economy in the world) did decades ago.
Absurd reasoning. Instead of going from bad to awful, the workers' standard of life could have gone from bad to good. Is that too difficult to comprehend?
Betsey Stevenson, the Labor Department's chief economist until last year, said U.S. companies used to prioritize American workers even when it meant higher costs. ?That?s disappeared," she said. "Profits and efficiency have trumped generosity.?
Wow. The government's best solution to the loss of American jobs is to appeal to corporate "generosity." I didn't realize the free market economy was based on pursuit of altruistic concepts like "generosity." There are economic systems based on altruism, but they are not called capitalism.
What is happening at Apple? Has it lost its collective mind? It is becoming another GE, ExxonBobil, Boeing, Halliburton, Goldman Sachs? I am so so sorry that among its many accomplishments, Apple could not see how to build an honestly humanistic company. Jobs doesn't get to do this one over. But maybe Apple still can...though its time is fast waning.
What do you mean "becoming"? Apple is no different from any other huge company. They exist to provide profits to Wall Street.
Business is business. Apple is not a charity. Apple does not exist to make the world a better place. If they did not provide the profits, the owners would sell their stock and invest elsewhere.
Apple is owned overwhelmingly by the big money guys at places like Goldman Sachs and hedge funds. And those guys don't give a shit about some poor Chinese manual laborer - no more than they give a shit about you or me.
Jobs answered to them. The current CEO answers to them. Everything else is just a means to an end. If Apple could make more money by being humanistic, it would do so in a heartbeat. But as of now, Apple does what it takes to make as much profit as possible. And Apple will ALWAYS do whatever it takes to make as much profit as possible.
Absurd reasoning. Instead of going from bad to awful, the workers' standard of life could have gone from bad to good. Is that too difficult to comprehend?
Yes, it could have, as it could have gone from bad to AMAAAAZING too! But whose job is that? Have you sent thousands of dollars to poor families in Africa? No? A company's job is to make products and sell them. The magic of capitalism means that everyone trying to individually help themselves ends up helping raise all boats. But giving hand-outs is not Apple's job.
Stop saying absurd, you clearly don't know what that word means.
The workers' lives went from bad to middle class. That's pretty amazing.
What do you mean "becoming"? Apple is no different from any other huge company. They exist to provide profits to Wall Street.
Business is business. Apple is not a charity. Apple does not exist to make the world a better place. If they did not provide the profits, the owners would sell their stock and invest elsewhere.
Apple is owned overwhelmingly by the big money guys at places like Goldman Sachs and hedge funds.
They exist to provide profits to their owners, where ever they live. Many people on this board are those owners. Do you consider yourself "wall street"?
Also, Apple is not "overwhelmingly" held by hedge funds and GS. They are overwhelmingly held by individuals. "Institutional" ownership is 575 million out of 932 million shares. But if you think those shares are held by hedge funds, then you don't understand what hedge funds (or Goldman) do. 32 million of those 575 are held by Vangard. Which means held by individuals who buy the index funds they create. The same goes for most of the next 200,000,000 shares - they are held by companies who then sell index funds to individuals. So that 62% "institutional" ownership does not mean that 62% are held by some evil hedge fund somewhere.
I bet the majority of those Chinese workers would fight to keep their jobs. Their standard of living is increasing, thanks to Apple.
The alternative is a much lower standard of living, perhaps starving while toiling endlessly on some farm. People in this country with lower incomes rejoice at the affordable products and services offered at Wal-Mart.
Be careful to keep in mind what the alternative is. Capitalism raises all boats. It's the only economic system ever devised that spreads so much wealth around, raising standards of living and creating ever more opportunity for so many people. Apple is the epitome of capitalism. Tremendous numbers of people have benefited from their success. That goes for consumers, employees and investors.
Capitalism has its faults - most often caused by excessive govt. intervention - but on the whole, I haven't seen anything better.
As another excellent example: South Korea embraced capitalism and experienced an economic miracle. Their communist neighbor to the North has yet to join the 21st century and the entire country suffers.
The Boston Group posted a research report yesterday that identified the cost delta between manufacturing in the USA and China. Increases in fuel and international shipping plus the rise in Chinese labor rates coupled with the greater productivity of US workers has brought the cost differential in the past year to about 10% in favor of China. The cost Delta used to be over 25%. That back then made it an automatic build in China.
Boston group said that by 2015 they expected cost to be at parity to manufacture in China and USA. They also ran some comparisons between total manufacturing volume inside the US and total manufacturing volume in China (not just the export volume).
Interesting read. As one of the earlier poster said "reality is somewhere in between the extremes of perceptions"
Argue though we may about Apple's overseas production -- which I consider scandalous, one more reason to look elsewhere (besides increasingly dumbed down, lowest-common-denominator products) -- no one can deny that an electronic consumable is just material, while a human life is precious. This inequality is forgotten in all the abstract debate about economics. When you assert that a life means something (as Jobs' life did, though what is for historians to debate), then the framework for the argumentation changes. There is no justification for wage slavery. Or for abandoning one's homeland to make a buck overseas. Or for, instead of investing more of the resulting profits to raise the QoL overseas and thereby wages, equalizing things, simply handing it out as CEO and shareholder rewards.
I hear you, but there are practical issues at hand here, and I think the customer base is just as guilty.
For example, Mac Pros were made in the US. Instead of seeing that, and understanding what the machine is, people complained about the price.
If price is your main determinant, and the customer base doesn't care about the human cost or understand the consequences, why should Apple take the financial hit on an issue the consumer market doesn't care about?
What do you mean "becoming"? Apple is no different from any other huge company. They exist to provide profits to Wall Street.
Absolutely false. Apple exists to maximize value for SHAREHOLDERS. Of which essentially none live on Wall Street.
Quote:
Originally Posted by I am a Zither Zather Zuzz
Business is business. Apple is not a charity. Apple does not exist to make the world a better place. If they did not provide the profits, the owners would sell their stock and invest elsewhere.
Apple is owned overwhelmingly by the big money guys at places like Goldman Sachs and hedge funds. And those guys don't give a shit about some poor Chinese manual laborer - no more than they give a shit about you or me.
Jobs answered to them. The current CEO answers to them. Everything else is just a means to an end. If Apple could make more money by being humanistic, it would do so in a heartbeat. But as of now, Apple does what it takes to make as much profit as possible. And Apple will ALWAYS do whatever it takes to make as much profit as possible.
Actually, Apple's job is to maximize shareholder return - which will, in some cases, require them to do things that decrease current profits (like investing in new technologies).
But your rant is sorely misguided. The 'big money guys' do not own Apple shares. They are nothing more than middlemen who hold Apple shares for THEIR shareholders. Ultimately, Apple shares are owned either directly or indirectly by individual investors.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cameronj
Whose standard was decreased? These workers are living lives far better than they were before they applied for and received these jobs, as are their families. At some point they will be undercut by the next economic miracle at which point China will be forced to invest more heavily in education and move up the economic ladder, just as the USA (and every other advanced economy in the world) did decades ago.
That's what no one in this debate seems to get. The Chinese workers are FAR better off when companies like Apple invest there. Already, wages and working conditions are improving in China, but even when Apple started producing there, it was a voluntary exchange. I'm not aware of a single worker every being forced to work in a Foxconn plant at gunpoint. They were offered a job and gladly accepted it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PBRSTREETG
The average Foxconn worker can't even afford an iPhone or an iPad. People in the US who can't even afford the data plan for an iPhone have them. There is a reason why manufacturing is done in China. It can be done cheaper at wages and rates that American workers are unwilling to accept.
The average person working for Boeing can't afford a 747, either. Does that mean that Boeing should not be able to offer them a job?
The Chinese workers at Foxconn and other Apple contractors are there because they CHOSE to be there. The job was better than anything else they could get. So why is Apple evil for improving their standard of living and helping to feed millions of families?
Actually, Apple's job is to maximize shareholder return - which will, in some cases, require them to do things that decrease current profits (like investing in new technologies).
Only a fool would think that the reference was to short-term profits. And you are no fool.
Apple's mission is to provide the maximum total profits to its owners, which are 70% Wall Street institutional investors. But you knew that.
People here throw the word 'free-market' around like there's actually one here. It's pretty sad when people have been brainwashed to think that whenever there's a market, there's a free market. If you want free market, 1st you need private property rights, that's been proven by economists since the 1930s. But in China, people don't even own themselves as private properties, they can't speak freely, they can go choose their job freely, they can't interact with others freely, it's not a free labor market at all. Time to wake up folks.
People here throw the word 'free-market' around like there's actually one here. It's pretty sad when people have been brainwashed to think that whenever there's a market, there's a free market. If you want free market, 1st you need private property rights, that's been proven by economists since the 1930s. But in China, people don't even own themselves as private properties, they can't speak freely, they can go choose their job freely, they can't interact with others freely, it's not a free labor market at all. Time to wake up folks.
Err... Last I looked Apple was a US corporation...
Comments
Very political thread... the mixed-up picture didn't help...
Really? The mixed up picture caused you a lot of confusion? I guess any group of people can have their intelligence charted on a bell curve and there has to be somebody on each point of that curve huh?
How has our entitlement society created better workers?
Is the point of our culture to create the best workers, or to provide the best life?
There are so many variables to consider when discussing standards of living and keeping manufacturing jobs here.
Automated factories are expensive; sweatshops are cheap. Nope - just one. So long as we support regimes which treat human beings as flesh robots, no place where it's necessary to treat people as people can compete.
Don't forget that when Apple manages to make a world-class product such as an iPad cheaply, millions of Americans buy it and benefit. Our standard of living goes up, even if it's not reflected in wages, per se.
Don't forget that we're one species living on a single planet. Externalizing the death camp nightmare of Apple's manufacturing to a regime that tolerates such crimes moves the problem out of sight of Americans who choose not to see, but that's all. Americans have stuff, and Chinese live in hell. Having toys built with blood, tears, despair, and each produces a net lower standard of living for human beings in general.
Compare how someone in the middle class lived in the 1970s to 2012. Modern conveniences and all kinds of goods that increase our leisure time enjoyment.
We've temporarily improved our standard of living by reducing that of others. We've delighted in the monstrous imbalance we've created - we'll be less happy when the pendulum swings the other way.
Jobs is right. Those jobs that demand long hours - in addition to being monotonous and likely unfulfilling - are not the kind of jobs that are easy to fill here. They are not coming back.
Nonsense. Jobs was, among other things, a sociopath. Do you think the 1% in America are unaware of China's shining example? Go talk to any Walmart employee and discover what's in store for the masses when the very few own the many.
Rumors about the wonders of automated manufacturing are what corporations who outsource their labor to wrecked economies and despotic regimes circulate to help us assuage our collective guilt. The quick answer to your question is that anything manufactured in China is made entirely by hand under conditions that make American prisons look like exclusive resorts.
American prisons look like exclusive resorts compared to a lot of places - both in America and elsewhere. That's part of the problem.
We've temporarily improved our standard of living by reducing that of others. We've delighted in the monstrous imbalance we've created - we'll be less happy when the pendulum swings the other way.
Whose standard was decreased? These workers are living lives far better than they were before they applied for and received these jobs, as are their families. At some point they will be undercut by the next economic miracle at which point China will be forced to invest more heavily in education and move up the economic ladder, just as the USA (and every other advanced economy in the world) did decades ago.
What is happening at Apple? Has it lost its collective mind? It is becoming another GE, ExxonBobil, Boeing, Halliburton, Goldman Sachs? I am so so sorry that among its many accomplishments, Apple could not see how to build an honestly humanistic company. Jobs doesn't get to do this one over. But maybe Apple still can...though its time is fast waning.
Whose standard was decreased? These workers are living lives far better than they were before they applied for and received these jobs, as are their families. At some point they will be undercut by the next economic miracle at which point China will be forced to invest more heavily in education and move up the economic ladder, just as the USA (and every other advanced economy in the world) did decades ago.
Absurd reasoning. Instead of going from bad to awful, the workers' standard of life could have gone from bad to good. Is that too difficult to comprehend?
Betsey Stevenson, the Labor Department's chief economist until last year, said U.S. companies used to prioritize American workers even when it meant higher costs. ?That?s disappeared," she said. "Profits and efficiency have trumped generosity.?
Wow. The government's best solution to the loss of American jobs is to appeal to corporate "generosity." I didn't realize the free market economy was based on pursuit of altruistic concepts like "generosity." There are economic systems based on altruism, but they are not called capitalism.
What is happening at Apple? Has it lost its collective mind? It is becoming another GE, ExxonBobil, Boeing, Halliburton, Goldman Sachs? I am so so sorry that among its many accomplishments, Apple could not see how to build an honestly humanistic company. Jobs doesn't get to do this one over. But maybe Apple still can...though its time is fast waning.
What do you mean "becoming"? Apple is no different from any other huge company. They exist to provide profits to Wall Street.
Business is business. Apple is not a charity. Apple does not exist to make the world a better place. If they did not provide the profits, the owners would sell their stock and invest elsewhere.
Apple is owned overwhelmingly by the big money guys at places like Goldman Sachs and hedge funds. And those guys don't give a shit about some poor Chinese manual laborer - no more than they give a shit about you or me.
Jobs answered to them. The current CEO answers to them. Everything else is just a means to an end. If Apple could make more money by being humanistic, it would do so in a heartbeat. But as of now, Apple does what it takes to make as much profit as possible. And Apple will ALWAYS do whatever it takes to make as much profit as possible.
Absurd reasoning. Instead of going from bad to awful, the workers' standard of life could have gone from bad to good. Is that too difficult to comprehend?
Yes, it could have, as it could have gone from bad to AMAAAAZING too! But whose job is that? Have you sent thousands of dollars to poor families in Africa? No? A company's job is to make products and sell them. The magic of capitalism means that everyone trying to individually help themselves ends up helping raise all boats. But giving hand-outs is not Apple's job.
Stop saying absurd, you clearly don't know what that word means.
The workers' lives went from bad to middle class. That's pretty amazing.
What do you mean "becoming"? Apple is no different from any other huge company. They exist to provide profits to Wall Street.
Business is business. Apple is not a charity. Apple does not exist to make the world a better place. If they did not provide the profits, the owners would sell their stock and invest elsewhere.
Apple is owned overwhelmingly by the big money guys at places like Goldman Sachs and hedge funds.
They exist to provide profits to their owners, where ever they live. Many people on this board are those owners. Do you consider yourself "wall street"?
Also, Apple is not "overwhelmingly" held by hedge funds and GS. They are overwhelmingly held by individuals. "Institutional" ownership is 575 million out of 932 million shares. But if you think those shares are held by hedge funds, then you don't understand what hedge funds (or Goldman) do. 32 million of those 575 are held by Vangard. Which means held by individuals who buy the index funds they create. The same goes for most of the next 200,000,000 shares - they are held by companies who then sell index funds to individuals. So that 62% "institutional" ownership does not mean that 62% are held by some evil hedge fund somewhere.
1) have ever hired, fired or laid-off an employee
2) have ever owned a company that had to compete in the free market
3) have ever had to choose between employee benefits and survival of their company
The alternative is a much lower standard of living, perhaps starving while toiling endlessly on some farm. People in this country with lower incomes rejoice at the affordable products and services offered at Wal-Mart.
Be careful to keep in mind what the alternative is. Capitalism raises all boats. It's the only economic system ever devised that spreads so much wealth around, raising standards of living and creating ever more opportunity for so many people. Apple is the epitome of capitalism. Tremendous numbers of people have benefited from their success. That goes for consumers, employees and investors.
Capitalism has its faults - most often caused by excessive govt. intervention - but on the whole, I haven't seen anything better.
As another excellent example: South Korea embraced capitalism and experienced an economic miracle. Their communist neighbor to the North has yet to join the 21st century and the entire country suffers.
Boston group said that by 2015 they expected cost to be at parity to manufacture in China and USA. They also ran some comparisons between total manufacturing volume inside the US and total manufacturing volume in China (not just the export volume).
Interesting read. As one of the earlier poster said "reality is somewhere in between the extremes of perceptions"
Very political thread... the mixed-up picture didn't help...
Really? The mixed up picture caused you a lot of confusion?
The mixed up picture did not help to make the discussion less political, even though it provided an alternative topic.
That's what I meant, obviously.
I guess any group of people can have their intelligence charted on a bell curve and there has to be somebody on each point of that curve huh?
I guess you're right.
Argue though we may about Apple's overseas production -- which I consider scandalous, one more reason to look elsewhere (besides increasingly dumbed down, lowest-common-denominator products) -- no one can deny that an electronic consumable is just material, while a human life is precious. This inequality is forgotten in all the abstract debate about economics. When you assert that a life means something (as Jobs' life did, though what is for historians to debate), then the framework for the argumentation changes. There is no justification for wage slavery. Or for abandoning one's homeland to make a buck overseas. Or for, instead of investing more of the resulting profits to raise the QoL overseas and thereby wages, equalizing things, simply handing it out as CEO and shareholder rewards.
I hear you, but there are practical issues at hand here, and I think the customer base is just as guilty.
For example, Mac Pros were made in the US. Instead of seeing that, and understanding what the machine is, people complained about the price.
If price is your main determinant, and the customer base doesn't care about the human cost or understand the consequences, why should Apple take the financial hit on an issue the consumer market doesn't care about?
What do you mean "becoming"? Apple is no different from any other huge company. They exist to provide profits to Wall Street.
Absolutely false. Apple exists to maximize value for SHAREHOLDERS. Of which essentially none live on Wall Street.
Business is business. Apple is not a charity. Apple does not exist to make the world a better place. If they did not provide the profits, the owners would sell their stock and invest elsewhere.
Apple is owned overwhelmingly by the big money guys at places like Goldman Sachs and hedge funds. And those guys don't give a shit about some poor Chinese manual laborer - no more than they give a shit about you or me.
Jobs answered to them. The current CEO answers to them. Everything else is just a means to an end. If Apple could make more money by being humanistic, it would do so in a heartbeat. But as of now, Apple does what it takes to make as much profit as possible. And Apple will ALWAYS do whatever it takes to make as much profit as possible.
Actually, Apple's job is to maximize shareholder return - which will, in some cases, require them to do things that decrease current profits (like investing in new technologies).
But your rant is sorely misguided. The 'big money guys' do not own Apple shares. They are nothing more than middlemen who hold Apple shares for THEIR shareholders. Ultimately, Apple shares are owned either directly or indirectly by individual investors.
Whose standard was decreased? These workers are living lives far better than they were before they applied for and received these jobs, as are their families. At some point they will be undercut by the next economic miracle at which point China will be forced to invest more heavily in education and move up the economic ladder, just as the USA (and every other advanced economy in the world) did decades ago.
That's what no one in this debate seems to get. The Chinese workers are FAR better off when companies like Apple invest there. Already, wages and working conditions are improving in China, but even when Apple started producing there, it was a voluntary exchange. I'm not aware of a single worker every being forced to work in a Foxconn plant at gunpoint. They were offered a job and gladly accepted it.
The average Foxconn worker can't even afford an iPhone or an iPad. People in the US who can't even afford the data plan for an iPhone have them. There is a reason why manufacturing is done in China. It can be done cheaper at wages and rates that American workers are unwilling to accept.
The average person working for Boeing can't afford a 747, either. Does that mean that Boeing should not be able to offer them a job?
The Chinese workers at Foxconn and other Apple contractors are there because they CHOSE to be there. The job was better than anything else they could get. So why is Apple evil for improving their standard of living and helping to feed millions of families?
Absolutely false. Apple exists to maximize value for SHAREHOLDERS. Of which essentially none live on Wall Street.
Only a fool would think that the reference was to residential addresses. And you are no fool.
Apple is 70% owned by institutional investors. "Wall Street" is a euphemism for (among other things) big institutional investors. But you knew that.
Top Institutional Holders
FMR LLC\t51,500,993\t
VANGUARD GROUP, INC. (THE)\t36,569,629\t
STATE STREET CORPORATION\t34,363,487\t
PRICE (T.ROWE) ASSOCIATES INC\t23,468,691\t
BlackRock Institutional Trust Company, N.A.\t23,118,847\t
Capital World Investors\t15,287,940\t
Capital Research Global Investors\t13,523,300\t
Invesco Ltd.\t12,966,344\t
JP MORGAN CHASE & COMPANY\t12,283,377\t
NORTHERN TRUST CORPORATION\t12,049,958\t
Actually, Apple's job is to maximize shareholder return - which will, in some cases, require them to do things that decrease current profits (like investing in new technologies).
Only a fool would think that the reference was to short-term profits. And you are no fool.
Apple's mission is to provide the maximum total profits to its owners, which are 70% Wall Street institutional investors. But you knew that.
People here throw the word 'free-market' around like there's actually one here. It's pretty sad when people have been brainwashed to think that whenever there's a market, there's a free market. If you want free market, 1st you need private property rights, that's been proven by economists since the 1930s. But in China, people don't even own themselves as private properties, they can't speak freely, they can go choose their job freely, they can't interact with others freely, it's not a free labor market at all. Time to wake up folks.
Err... Last I looked Apple was a US corporation...