Why don't you just say that FreeRange is right, instead of demonstrating it!
I don't follow, FreeRange suggests the situation should be left to resolve itself, despite Western countries benefitting from it. If factories aren't held accountable, the situation will not resolve itself. Where did I demonstrate that leaving the situation alone would resolve it? Left alone, problem 1 remains.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich
Workers are paid a competitive wage based on market conditions
It's never about doing mildly better than the worst example. Apple has never done that. Their ethics are to do what's right as determined by rational people. The treatment of Chinese workers is wrong by our standards and it would take a negligible expense to resolve it.
It was I admit, but we are really talking, or should be I believe, about an evil regime, and not let it be derailed into a discussion about wether the most privileged workers (arguably) in China are being exploited, freely working overtime to be able to better support their family and build a new future. People putting into this that Foxcon does not know how to optimize their own costs, really make me question their motives.
I think you misunderstood what he was saying... and, no offence meant, I don't think you will ever understand it at this point.
How myopic. There are billions of people suffering in the world (these factory workers are relatively affluent). They make 10 dollars a day or more. Way more than most people in the world do.
So if you assemble me a computer that I made $300 profit on and compensated you $0.25, could I call you a complainer and use this excuse to justify it?
I don't follow, FreeRange suggests the situation should be left to resolve itself, despite Western countries benefitting from it. If factories aren't held accountable, the situation will not resolve itself. Where did I demonstrate that leaving the situation alone would resolve it? Left alone, problem 1 remains.
It's never about doing mildly better than the worst example. Apple has never done that. Their ethics are to do what's right as determined by rational people. The treatment of Chinese workers is wrong by our standards and it would take a negligible expense to resolve it.
My understanding of what FreeRange meant is that there are laws in China, but the laws are only valid from case to case when supported by the communist party where the real power is.
This I believe is a true representation of the current conditions, I still believe however, that China is moving in the right direction, and that what western business like Apple are doing in China basically is a good thing.
The comment from one worker that "We're here to work not play" is quite telling. That is why Americans are considered lazy, and why jobs are being sent overseas in some cases. (The other is more problematic -- American companies in other countries are allowed to destroy their environment was well as their culture).
However, in many cases, professionals in this country do work substantially more than 40 hours a week.
But, there are problems with extensive overtime. Truck drivers falling asleep at the wheel, overtime and multiple jobs for airline pilots, assembly line workers in factories, nurses and doctors on multiple shifts without enough rest, teachers working all day at school, and working many additional hours after. Students in my college days took "speed" to keep up with the rigors of college. Not healthy.
The US also has a sordid history of abuse in this area such as the garment workers in NYC during the late 1800's and into the post WW I eras. More recently coal miners before federal intervention. Today, migrant workers supplying food to our tables (so we Americans can become even more obese).
I would expect many on this forum are professionally involved with technical development projects, and know full well the symptom of low quality product release -- to make a deadline, 60 hour weeks over a period of more than two weeks.
The question should be, did Foxconn cut back too much given cultural, human capacity limits and safety issues? There is a difference between imposing American sensitivities to other cultures and accepting working conditions which are otherwise not morally repugnant.
I certainly lack enough knowledge of the conditions in China to balance these issues.
I think you misunderstood what he was saying... and, no offence meant, I don't think you will ever understand it at this point.
I have a problem not understanding that it is incomprehensible to understand that the marginal cost of one more working hour is less, not more, all costs considered, even if paying more for that hour in wages. However my main objection is the "help" we in the west want to extend to these workers, who we do not believe understand their own best. A long long time ago, before I was as lucky to have the job I have now (with no overtime compensation, and plenty "overtime") I went working for a season in the arctic away from my family. There was regulations regarding overtime, but we did everything we could to break them. I guess I should have understood that I should rather have spent 16 hours a day in the barracks, than making some more money. Guess I was a stupid worker... Any chance this could be the situation we are looking at?
Not sure anyone said this, I highly doubt since most people here have no clue how this stuff works in China.
Just to educated people, unlike the US when a company in china who manufactures product for western companies are found to be in violation of the labor laws in china, it is not the government who comes in and fines them or fixes the situation. What happens is the government notifies the western company that their manufacturer is in violation of the labor laws and they are required to fix the issue with that manufacturer.
Interesting how that works, in stead of the government coming and being the heavy to make sure labor abuse does not happen they force companies to be the heavy. The reason being, if the western company want the government off their back they usually have to pay more to the manufacturing company so they can hire more people of fix the issue that are causing the problem. That is what Apple did that got Fox to give the workers a raise and in turn you know Apple paid more.
China likes this since they do not have to be the heavy on their companies and usually it means more workers making more money which is all good for China.
Actually, we kind of do know what we're doing. There is such a thing as repetitive stress injury (RSI) that will occur if these people continue to work assembly lines 60+ hours/week. If you want your iPhone so cheap that you want workers in another country maimed for life, you are sub-human. There is nothing whatsoever stupid about cutting their time to 49 hours a week. Oh, and by the way, 49 hours/week is the law there. So your objection about westerners not knowing about eastern cultures falls badly flat. Grow up and learn something.
I wonder where the electronic device you typed this on was built.
Media get a few workers to say how bad things are for a few dollars of bribery.
Team AmericFLA fly in, nuke the place, shoot all around them, claim a victory over bad standards and leave.
People left looking horrified, wondering WTF? and then go back to the Media and say how bad things are now, they cant afford to live.
But, hey, WE know whats best for them, because , look, the Western Culture has SOOO got it right. No Problems over here. Our 'do-godders' havent ruined things and we have no problems. Crime is virtually eliminated. So they REALLY should do things OUR way.
Like F$ck !!
China, close up the borders again and boot foreigners out. You'll be better off in the long run.
You, Sir, is one of the most dishonest persons I have met on this site.
Corrections: One of the few dishonest. I do not believe you don't understand the difference between the average and the marginal.
First of all, you've been reported for name-calling. (The fact that you will descend to that says more about you than me.)
If, as someone else was suggesting, you were making the case that employee-related costs -- e.g., hiring, training, coming up-to-speed on productivity, accommodation, etc expenses -- could affect average wages (e.g., increase it from the current $1.75 equilibrium), you might actually have a case. Even then, one would have to trade off the net additional per-worker-hour costs of that against the gains from overtime per-worker-hour-costs saved.
Instead, you claim that "in the limit" fixed costs go to zero when you add more labor hours/volume. They don't. You have to account for the fact that you will use the machines more (they depreciate faster; they need more maintenance; there will be greater downtime), you will create more wear and tear on the building (e.g., straining building infrastructure such as HVAC systems, plumbing, waste/pollution handling, keeping the cafeteria open longer) that the lessor will want additional compensation for, you use more electricity/energy, you need a greater support staff (e.g., cafeteria workers, custodial staff, secretaries, supervisors) generate more waste/pollution/emissions etc. The key point you seem to be missing is the following: Any such additional costs imposed on fixed assets would be the sameregardless of whether they came from the same worker working for an extra hour or from a new worker working that hour.
Moreover, your fixed assets don't come free "in the limit". Beyond a point, as volume increases (whether from the same employee doing overtime work or an extra employee was doing that work in place of the overtime worker), you will need a step change in investments in fixed assets: in other words, the investment in fixed assets changes as a "staircase" function of volume.
If anyone has trouble keeping his ideas of average versus marginal costs straight, it really would appear to be you.
Actually, we kind of do know what we're doing. There is such a thing as repetitive stress injury (RSI) that will occur if these people continue to work assembly lines 60+ hours/week. If you want your iPhone so cheap that you want workers in another country maimed for life, you are sub-human. There is nothing whatsoever stupid about cutting their time to 49 hours a week. Oh, and by the way, 49 hours/week is the law there. So your objection about westerners not knowing about eastern cultures falls badly flat. Grow up and learn something.
There's also such a thing as starving to death, and if you don't think people in China understand the trade-off between RSI (talk about rich people problems, sheesh) and their family back in the village starving to death, you're nuts. With that much less overtime there's that much less money to send back home and how many children will die as a result of that? It's more than zero, 100% guarantee.
Forcing an employee not to do what they want to do is always making that person worse off. Grow and yourself.
I think there is enough blame to go around. But I digress...
Anybody who thinks "its the conservatives" OR "it's the liberals" is just as much a part of the problem as the other side. It's those in the middle who didn't screw it up, that's for sure.
Please, is there anyone here who can delete the flotsam and jetsam on this site?
Is the whole of the thread complete bullshit, for I seem to be missing any cogent comments based on the article.
Please, to all of you who commented not on point to the story, please remove your comments. Then I will be happy to remove this comment, and make believe those who participated had only intelligent and thoughtful comments to make.
Comments
I know you specifically ignored the HoR numbers because it weakened your position.
I don't think so. Good try though.
The Senate in this country approves laws drafted in HoR.
I don't know what history books you read growing up but I would throw them out.
Why don't you just say that FreeRange is right, instead of demonstrating it!
I don't follow, FreeRange suggests the situation should be left to resolve itself, despite Western countries benefitting from it. If factories aren't held accountable, the situation will not resolve itself. Where did I demonstrate that leaving the situation alone would resolve it? Left alone, problem 1 remains.
Workers are paid a competitive wage based on market conditions
It's never about doing mildly better than the worst example. Apple has never done that. Their ethics are to do what's right as determined by rational people. The treatment of Chinese workers is wrong by our standards and it would take a negligible expense to resolve it.
It was I admit, but we are really talking, or should be I believe, about an evil regime, and not let it be derailed into a discussion about wether the most privileged workers (arguably) in China are being exploited, freely working overtime to be able to better support their family and build a new future. People putting into this that Foxcon does not know how to optimize their own costs, really make me question their motives.
I think you misunderstood what he was saying... and, no offence meant, I don't think you will ever understand it at this point.
How myopic. There are billions of people suffering in the world (these factory workers are relatively affluent). They make 10 dollars a day or more. Way more than most people in the world do.
So if you assemble me a computer that I made $300 profit on and compensated you $0.25, could I call you a complainer and use this excuse to justify it?
I don't follow, FreeRange suggests the situation should be left to resolve itself, despite Western countries benefitting from it. If factories aren't held accountable, the situation will not resolve itself. Where did I demonstrate that leaving the situation alone would resolve it? Left alone, problem 1 remains.
It's never about doing mildly better than the worst example. Apple has never done that. Their ethics are to do what's right as determined by rational people. The treatment of Chinese workers is wrong by our standards and it would take a negligible expense to resolve it.
My understanding of what FreeRange meant is that there are laws in China, but the laws are only valid from case to case when supported by the communist party where the real power is.
This I believe is a true representation of the current conditions, I still believe however, that China is moving in the right direction, and that what western business like Apple are doing in China basically is a good thing.
However, in many cases, professionals in this country do work substantially more than 40 hours a week.
But, there are problems with extensive overtime. Truck drivers falling asleep at the wheel, overtime and multiple jobs for airline pilots, assembly line workers in factories, nurses and doctors on multiple shifts without enough rest, teachers working all day at school, and working many additional hours after. Students in my college days took "speed" to keep up with the rigors of college. Not healthy.
The US also has a sordid history of abuse in this area such as the garment workers in NYC during the late 1800's and into the post WW I eras. More recently coal miners before federal intervention. Today, migrant workers supplying food to our tables (so we Americans can become even more obese).
I would expect many on this forum are professionally involved with technical development projects, and know full well the symptom of low quality product release -- to make a deadline, 60 hour weeks over a period of more than two weeks.
The question should be, did Foxconn cut back too much given cultural, human capacity limits and safety issues? There is a difference between imposing American sensitivities to other cultures and accepting working conditions which are otherwise not morally repugnant.
I certainly lack enough knowledge of the conditions in China to balance these issues.
The Senate in this country approves laws drafted in HoR.
That is not quite true. Only revenue legislation must originate in the House. Otherwise both houses have equal voice in drafting bills.
I think you misunderstood what he was saying... and, no offence meant, I don't think you will ever understand it at this point.
I have a problem not understanding that it is incomprehensible to understand that the marginal cost of one more working hour is less, not more, all costs considered, even if paying more for that hour in wages. However my main objection is the "help" we in the west want to extend to these workers, who we do not believe understand their own best. A long long time ago, before I was as lucky to have the job I have now (with no overtime compensation, and plenty "overtime") I went working for a season in the arctic away from my family. There was regulations regarding overtime, but we did everything we could to break them. I guess I should have understood that I should rather have spent 16 hours a day in the barracks, than making some more money. Guess I was a stupid worker... Any chance this could be the situation we are looking at?
"If everyone's a troll, then no one is." (...with apologies to "The Incredibles")
I loved that line. Dashiel Robert Parr is who I want to be when I grow up. The banter throughout that movie made it my favorite Pixar film. Timeless.
Just to educated people, unlike the US when a company in china who manufactures product for western companies are found to be in violation of the labor laws in china, it is not the government who comes in and fines them or fixes the situation. What happens is the government notifies the western company that their manufacturer is in violation of the labor laws and they are required to fix the issue with that manufacturer.
Interesting how that works, in stead of the government coming and being the heavy to make sure labor abuse does not happen they force companies to be the heavy. The reason being, if the western company want the government off their back they usually have to pay more to the manufacturing company so they can hire more people of fix the issue that are causing the problem. That is what Apple did that got Fox to give the workers a raise and in turn you know Apple paid more.
China likes this since they do not have to be the heavy on their companies and usually it means more workers making more money which is all good for China.
Actually, we kind of do know what we're doing. There is such a thing as repetitive stress injury (RSI) that will occur if these people continue to work assembly lines 60+ hours/week. If you want your iPhone so cheap that you want workers in another country maimed for life, you are sub-human. There is nothing whatsoever stupid about cutting their time to 49 hours a week. Oh, and by the way, 49 hours/week is the law there. So your objection about westerners not knowing about eastern cultures falls badly flat. Grow up and learn something.
I wonder where the electronic device you typed this on was built.
Media get a few workers to say how bad things are for a few dollars of bribery.
Team AmericFLA fly in, nuke the place, shoot all around them, claim a victory over bad standards and leave.
People left looking horrified, wondering WTF? and then go back to the Media and say how bad things are now, they cant afford to live.
But, hey, WE know whats best for them, because , look, the Western Culture has SOOO got it right. No Problems over here. Our 'do-godders' havent ruined things and we have no problems. Crime is virtually eliminated. So they REALLY should do things OUR way.
Like F$ck !!
China, close up the borders again and boot foreigners out. You'll be better off in the long run.
You, Sir, is one of the most dishonest persons I have met on this site.
Corrections: One of the few dishonest. I do not believe you don't understand the difference between the average and the marginal.
First of all, you've been reported for name-calling. (The fact that you will descend to that says more about you than me.)
If, as someone else was suggesting, you were making the case that employee-related costs -- e.g., hiring, training, coming up-to-speed on productivity, accommodation, etc expenses -- could affect average wages (e.g., increase it from the current $1.75 equilibrium), you might actually have a case. Even then, one would have to trade off the net additional per-worker-hour costs of that against the gains from overtime per-worker-hour-costs saved.
Instead, you claim that "in the limit" fixed costs go to zero when you add more labor hours/volume. They don't. You have to account for the fact that you will use the machines more (they depreciate faster; they need more maintenance; there will be greater downtime), you will create more wear and tear on the building (e.g., straining building infrastructure such as HVAC systems, plumbing, waste/pollution handling, keeping the cafeteria open longer) that the lessor will want additional compensation for, you use more electricity/energy, you need a greater support staff (e.g., cafeteria workers, custodial staff, secretaries, supervisors) generate more waste/pollution/emissions etc. The key point you seem to be missing is the following: Any such additional costs imposed on fixed assets would be the same regardless of whether they came from the same worker working for an extra hour or from a new worker working that hour.
Moreover, your fixed assets don't come free "in the limit". Beyond a point, as volume increases (whether from the same employee doing overtime work or an extra employee was doing that work in place of the overtime worker), you will need a step change in investments in fixed assets: in other words, the investment in fixed assets changes as a "staircase" function of volume.
If anyone has trouble keeping his ideas of average versus marginal costs straight, it really would appear to be you.
That is not quite true. Only revenue legislation must originate in the House. Otherwise both houses have equal voice in drafting bills.
But not in this case mentioned. The resolution came out of the HoR.
But my point is the Senate needs to pass it. I know there can be exception of overiding by HoR but again not in this case
What is this?- The Supreme Court' at AI?
Actually, we kind of do know what we're doing. There is such a thing as repetitive stress injury (RSI) that will occur if these people continue to work assembly lines 60+ hours/week. If you want your iPhone so cheap that you want workers in another country maimed for life, you are sub-human. There is nothing whatsoever stupid about cutting their time to 49 hours a week. Oh, and by the way, 49 hours/week is the law there. So your objection about westerners not knowing about eastern cultures falls badly flat. Grow up and learn something.
There's also such a thing as starving to death, and if you don't think people in China understand the trade-off between RSI (talk about rich people problems, sheesh) and their family back in the village starving to death, you're nuts. With that much less overtime there's that much less money to send back home and how many children will die as a result of that? It's more than zero, 100% guarantee.
Forcing an employee not to do what they want to do is always making that person worse off. Grow and yourself.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions
Thanks for finishing that one up for us
I think there is enough blame to go around. But I digress...
Anybody who thinks "its the conservatives" OR "it's the liberals" is just as much a part of the problem as the other side. It's those in the middle who didn't screw it up, that's for sure.
Is the whole of the thread complete bullshit, for I seem to be missing any cogent comments based on the article.
Please, to all of you who commented not on point to the story, please remove your comments. Then I will be happy to remove this comment, and make believe those who participated had only intelligent and thoughtful comments to make.