Here in the US the trend is to reduce labor costs and employee benefits such as American Airlines going bankrupt to break their contract with Flight Attendants. The worker in the US is experiencing a diminishing life style.(UAW etc, etc)
Let's go to China and improve conditions? What about here.
I'm 67 years old and I'm working 50 to 60 hours per week - Don't trust Social Security in the hands of the 1% exploiters who pay 15% taxes (e.g. MR)
And Barack and Bill Clinton and Kerry and Hillary.
And Bush and Boehner.
And Shaq and Peyton.
Right?
Or are you only upset about the republican rich who "fleece" the rest of the country?
But not in this case mentioned. The resolution came out of the HoR.
But my point is the Senate needs to pass it. I know there can be exception of overiding by HoR but again not in this case
What is this?- The Supreme Court' at AI?
Sorry. You are wrong once again.
The legislation was introduced by Congress in response to President Bush's requests, S.J.Res. 45 sponsored by Sen. Daschle & Sen. Lott was based on the original White House proposal authorizing the use of force in Iraq.
This was a unique situation where the White House drafted a request and proposed it to Congress and then both houses created separate bills. Ultimately it was the Senate version that was passed into law.
First of all, you've been reported for name-calling. (The fact that you will descend to that says more about you than me.)
If, as someone else was suggesting, you were making the case that employee-related costs -- e.g., hiring, training, coming up-to-speed on productivity, accommodation, etc expenses -- could affect average wages (e.g., increase it from the current $1.75 equilibrium), you might actually have a case. Even then, one would have to trade off the net additional per-worker-hour costs of that against the gains from overtime per-worker-hour-costs saved.
Instead, you claim that "in the limit" fixed costs go to zero when you add more labor hours/volume. They don't. You have to account for the fact that you will use the machines more (they depreciate faster; they need more maintenance; there will be greater downtime), you will create more wear and tear on the building (e.g., straining building infrastructure such as HVAC systems, plumbing, waste/pollution handling, keeping the cafeteria open longer) that the lessor will want additional compensation for, you use more electricity/energy, you need a greater support staff (e.g., cafeteria workers, custodial staff, secretaries, supervisors) generate more waste/pollution/emissions etc. The key point you seem to be missing is the following: Any such additional costs imposed on fixed assets would be the sameregardless of whether they came from the same worker working for an extra hour or from a new worker working that hour.
Moreover, your fixed assets don't come free "in the limit". Beyond a point, as volume increases (whether from the same employee doing overtime work or an extra employee was doing that work in place of the overtime worker), you will need a step change in investments in fixed assets: in other words, the investment in fixed assets changes as a "staircase" function of volume.
If anyone has trouble keeping his ideas of average versus marginal costs straight, it really would appear to be you.
I appreciate being reported for name dropping and will learn from you way of avoiding this by saying, quoting you : This, from a guy who thinks that fixed costs go to zero as the number of units increases..... I'd love to live in that world.:lol
, However, I don't understand why it is so important to prove that Foxcon doesn't understand their own best. I never said all costs goes to zero except wages, but on the margin total expenses in general will be reduced. I won't go into details with your argument, but the one about machines is probably the most flawed one. The cost of maintaining a modern machine is very small compared to the short lifespan it will have before it is technologically obsolete and have to be replaced for efficiency. The price for that machine is the same wether you are in China or US (exempting taxes). It is also very hard to accept that the cost of owning and maintaining a building increases proportionally with the number of hours used, I do not, however, say that the price is constant. The main rule for the last 30 years in production still has been that keeping the system running is the way to make a healthy profit.
You do have a point that in a 24/7 system the profit of overtime is reduced, but it is not my understanding that this is a 24/7 system (requiring 5 shifts in most western countries). Still I believe that 1) Overtime will reduce Foxcoms costs: which was the starting point of this discussion, and 2) the employees at Foxcom are much better than we are to judge their own best and do not the kind of "help" American workers organizations provides
While everyone is so busy trying to decide how to help with poor Foxconn workers, has no one bothered to ask them what *THEY* want?
I don't think that what they want is such a great mystery: More money for less work, if possible. If not (the likely scenario), more money for more work.
While everyone is so busy trying to decide how to help with poor Foxconn workers, has no one bothered to ask them what *THEY* want?
I think that was suggested but those people with the "best of intentions" basically said that the workers would be lying if they said anything other than that they were being mistreated.
It's never about doing mildly better than the worst example. Apple has never done that. Their ethics are to do what's right as determined by rational people. The treatment of Chinese workers is wrong by our standards and it would take a negligible expense to resolve it.
I happen to disagree. It's only because US labor groups are making hay of this issue and because Apple has been historically left leaning that anything is being done in this matter. I see it as the equivalent of politics.
My understanding of what FreeRange meant is that there are laws in China, but the laws are only valid from case to case when supported by the communist party where the real power is.
This I believe is a true representation of the current conditions, I still believe however, that China is moving in the right direction, and that what western business like Apple are doing in China basically is a good thing.
Not sure anyone said this, I highly doubt since most people here have no clue how this stuff works in China.
Just to educated people, unlike the US when a company in china who manufactures product for western companies are found to be in violation of the labor laws in china, it is not the government who comes in and fines them or fixes the situation. What happens is the government notifies the western company that their manufacturer is in violation of the labor laws and they are required to fix the issue with that manufacturer.
Interesting how that works, in stead of the government coming and being the heavy to make sure labor abuse does not happen they force companies to be the heavy. The reason being, if the western company want the government off their back they usually have to pay more to the manufacturing company so they can hire more people of fix the issue that are causing the problem. That is what Apple did that got Fox to give the workers a raise and in turn you know Apple paid more.
China likes this since they do not have to be the heavy on their companies and usually it means more workers making more money which is all good for China.
It's what you get when business and government are so intertwined. They shift the cost off to the customer, the money goes back into China. Devious.
Media get a few workers to say how bad things are for a few dollars of bribery.
Team AmericFLA fly in, nuke the place, shoot all around them, claim a victory over bad standards and leave.
People left looking horrified, wondering WTF? and then go back to the Media and say how bad things are now, they cant afford to live.
But, hey, WE know whats best for them, because , look, the Western Culture has SOOO got it right. No Problems over here. Our 'do-godders' havent ruined things and we have no problems. Crime is virtually eliminated. So they REALLY should do things OUR way.
Like F$ck !!
China, close up the borders again and boot foreigners out. You'll be better off in the long run.
That's quite a confused rant, but let me assure you that China has no interest in scaring off foreign businesses and investors. Their planned growth depends on it, and if they face too great an economic slowdown, there will be riots on every street in China.
Actually, we kind of do know what we're doing. There is such a thing as repetitive stress injury (RSI) that will occur if these people continue to work assembly lines 60+ hours/week. If you want your iPhone so cheap that you want workers in another country maimed for life, you are sub-human. There is nothing whatsoever stupid about cutting their time to 49 hours a week. Oh, and by the way, 49 hours/week is the law there. So your objection about westerners not knowing about eastern cultures falls badly flat. Grow up and learn something.
The solution is simple. Increase the hourly rate so they can make enough in 49 hours.
The solution is simple. Increase the hourly rate so they can make enough in 49 hours.
Ted
Why? Do you go out of your way to pay more for gas? for food? for housing? Do you prefer to only shop at stores that overpay their employees, relative to the competition?
[QUOTE=AppleInsider;2084624]Workers at Apple supplier Foxconn are reportedly worried after it has been announced that their hours will be cut following an audit of its facilities.
Twenty-three-year-old Wu Jun is used to working long overtime hours to earn the bulk of her income. But after Foxconn announced it will cut hours for its employees, she and other employees expressed concern to Reuters that they won't make enough money to support their families.
Chuckle: anyone here who ever worked in a non-union shipyard in the US of A?
When I worked at Avondale Shipyard in Louisiana we worked a mandatory 14 hours of overtime every week. And if trade unions hadn't fought to get laws passed for overtime, it would have been straight time.
Which is what it was for guys working offshore oil drilling rigs. No OT for that work.
Workers at Apple supplier Foxconn are reportedly worried after it has been announced that their hours will be cut following an audit of its facilities.
Twenty-three-year-old Wu Jun is used to working long overtime hours to earn the bulk of her income. But after Foxconn announced it will cut hours for its employees, she and other employees expressed concern to Reuters that they won't make enough money to support their families.
Chuckle: anyone here who ever worked in a non-union shipyard in the US of A?
When I worked at Avondale Shipyard in Louisiana we worked a mandatory 14 hours of overtime every week. And if trade unions hadn't fought to get laws passed for overtime, it would have been straight time.
Which is what it was for guys working offshore oil drilling rigs. No OT for that work.
There is really nothing wrong with unions to occasionally balance salary and benefits negotiations (except for government employee unions, which I believe should be illegal). When unions force workers to join, that's where I draw the line.
Why? Do you go out of your way to pay more for gas? for food? for housing? Do you prefer to only shop at stores that overpay their employees, relative to the competition?
There is an extremely simple and obvious solution: Pay them more.
It's embarrassing that the only reason they can make enough is by working tons of overtime. It would decrease Apple's profits slightly and the Foxconn CEO said it's entirely possible to do and he would love to give them pay increases.
Ah, ignorance is bliss! Let's say this again. THEY ALREADY MAKE A COMPETITIVE AND ABOVE MARKET WAGE. So now lets pay them significantly more. Then we have hyper inflation for food, housing, education, etc., so let's pay them even more again. Etc etc etc. Wages have already been rising so fast in China that basic food costs were rising last year in double digit increases in a single quarter, pork alone was up 50% year over year. But hey, we know what's best for them.
Why? Do you go out of your way to pay more for gas? for food? for housing? Do you prefer to only shop at stores that overpay their employees, relative to the competition?
Comments
Here in the US the trend is to reduce labor costs and employee benefits such as American Airlines going bankrupt to break their contract with Flight Attendants. The worker in the US is experiencing a diminishing life style.(UAW etc, etc)
Let's go to China and improve conditions? What about here.
I'm 67 years old and I'm working 50 to 60 hours per week - Don't trust Social Security in the hands of the 1% exploiters who pay 15% taxes (e.g. MR)
And Barack and Bill Clinton and Kerry and Hillary.
And Bush and Boehner.
And Shaq and Peyton.
Right?
Or are you only upset about the republican rich who "fleece" the rest of the country?
But not in this case mentioned. The resolution came out of the HoR.
But my point is the Senate needs to pass it. I know there can be exception of overiding by HoR but again not in this case
What is this?- The Supreme Court' at AI?
Sorry. You are wrong once again.
The legislation was introduced by Congress in response to President Bush's requests, S.J.Res. 45 sponsored by Sen. Daschle & Sen. Lott was based on the original White House proposal authorizing the use of force in Iraq.
This was a unique situation where the White House drafted a request and proposed it to Congress and then both houses created separate bills. Ultimately it was the Senate version that was passed into law.
First of all, you've been reported for name-calling. (The fact that you will descend to that says more about you than me.)
If, as someone else was suggesting, you were making the case that employee-related costs -- e.g., hiring, training, coming up-to-speed on productivity, accommodation, etc expenses -- could affect average wages (e.g., increase it from the current $1.75 equilibrium), you might actually have a case. Even then, one would have to trade off the net additional per-worker-hour costs of that against the gains from overtime per-worker-hour-costs saved.
Instead, you claim that "in the limit" fixed costs go to zero when you add more labor hours/volume. They don't. You have to account for the fact that you will use the machines more (they depreciate faster; they need more maintenance; there will be greater downtime), you will create more wear and tear on the building (e.g., straining building infrastructure such as HVAC systems, plumbing, waste/pollution handling, keeping the cafeteria open longer) that the lessor will want additional compensation for, you use more electricity/energy, you need a greater support staff (e.g., cafeteria workers, custodial staff, secretaries, supervisors) generate more waste/pollution/emissions etc. The key point you seem to be missing is the following: Any such additional costs imposed on fixed assets would be the same regardless of whether they came from the same worker working for an extra hour or from a new worker working that hour.
Moreover, your fixed assets don't come free "in the limit". Beyond a point, as volume increases (whether from the same employee doing overtime work or an extra employee was doing that work in place of the overtime worker), you will need a step change in investments in fixed assets: in other words, the investment in fixed assets changes as a "staircase" function of volume.
If anyone has trouble keeping his ideas of average versus marginal costs straight, it really would appear to be you.
I appreciate being reported for name dropping and will learn from you way of avoiding this by saying, quoting you : This, from a guy who thinks that fixed costs go to zero as the number of units increases..... I'd love to live in that world.:lol
, However, I don't understand why it is so important to prove that Foxcon doesn't understand their own best. I never said all costs goes to zero except wages, but on the margin total expenses in general will be reduced. I won't go into details with your argument, but the one about machines is probably the most flawed one. The cost of maintaining a modern machine is very small compared to the short lifespan it will have before it is technologically obsolete and have to be replaced for efficiency. The price for that machine is the same wether you are in China or US (exempting taxes). It is also very hard to accept that the cost of owning and maintaining a building increases proportionally with the number of hours used, I do not, however, say that the price is constant. The main rule for the last 30 years in production still has been that keeping the system running is the way to make a healthy profit.
You do have a point that in a 24/7 system the profit of overtime is reduced, but it is not my understanding that this is a 24/7 system (requiring 5 shifts in most western countries). Still I believe that 1) Overtime will reduce Foxcoms costs: which was the starting point of this discussion, and 2) the employees at Foxcom are much better than we are to judge their own best and do not the kind of "help" American workers organizations provides
While everyone is so busy trying to decide how to help with poor Foxconn workers, has no one bothered to ask them what *THEY* want?
I don't think that what they want is such a great mystery: More money for less work, if possible. If not (the likely scenario), more money for more work.
While everyone is so busy trying to decide how to help with poor Foxconn workers, has no one bothered to ask them what *THEY* want?
I think that was suggested but those people with the "best of intentions" basically said that the workers would be lying if they said anything other than that they were being mistreated.
While everyone is so busy trying to decide how to help with poor Foxconn workers, has no one bothered to ask them what *THEY* want?
No way, we do not like the answer!
It's never about doing mildly better than the worst example. Apple has never done that. Their ethics are to do what's right as determined by rational people. The treatment of Chinese workers is wrong by our standards and it would take a negligible expense to resolve it.
I happen to disagree. It's only because US labor groups are making hay of this issue and because Apple has been historically left leaning that anything is being done in this matter. I see it as the equivalent of politics.
My understanding of what FreeRange meant is that there are laws in China, but the laws are only valid from case to case when supported by the communist party where the real power is.
This I believe is a true representation of the current conditions, I still believe however, that China is moving in the right direction, and that what western business like Apple are doing in China basically is a good thing.
There's no "right direction". It's all relative.
Not sure anyone said this, I highly doubt since most people here have no clue how this stuff works in China.
Just to educated people, unlike the US when a company in china who manufactures product for western companies are found to be in violation of the labor laws in china, it is not the government who comes in and fines them or fixes the situation. What happens is the government notifies the western company that their manufacturer is in violation of the labor laws and they are required to fix the issue with that manufacturer.
Interesting how that works, in stead of the government coming and being the heavy to make sure labor abuse does not happen they force companies to be the heavy. The reason being, if the western company want the government off their back they usually have to pay more to the manufacturing company so they can hire more people of fix the issue that are causing the problem. That is what Apple did that got Fox to give the workers a raise and in turn you know Apple paid more.
China likes this since they do not have to be the heavy on their companies and usually it means more workers making more money which is all good for China.
It's what you get when business and government are so intertwined. They shift the cost off to the customer, the money goes back into China. Devious.
America, F$ck Yeah!
Media get a few workers to say how bad things are for a few dollars of bribery.
Team AmericFLA fly in, nuke the place, shoot all around them, claim a victory over bad standards and leave.
People left looking horrified, wondering WTF? and then go back to the Media and say how bad things are now, they cant afford to live.
But, hey, WE know whats best for them, because , look, the Western Culture has SOOO got it right. No Problems over here. Our 'do-godders' havent ruined things and we have no problems. Crime is virtually eliminated. So they REALLY should do things OUR way.
Like F$ck !!
China, close up the borders again and boot foreigners out. You'll be better off in the long run.
That's quite a confused rant, but let me assure you that China has no interest in scaring off foreign businesses and investors. Their planned growth depends on it, and if they face too great an economic slowdown, there will be riots on every street in China.
Actually, we kind of do know what we're doing. There is such a thing as repetitive stress injury (RSI) that will occur if these people continue to work assembly lines 60+ hours/week. If you want your iPhone so cheap that you want workers in another country maimed for life, you are sub-human. There is nothing whatsoever stupid about cutting their time to 49 hours a week. Oh, and by the way, 49 hours/week is the law there. So your objection about westerners not knowing about eastern cultures falls badly flat. Grow up and learn something.
The solution is simple. Increase the hourly rate so they can make enough in 49 hours.
Ted
The solution is simple. Increase the hourly rate so they can make enough in 49 hours.
Ted
Why? Do you go out of your way to pay more for gas? for food? for housing? Do you prefer to only shop at stores that overpay their employees, relative to the competition?
Twenty-three-year-old Wu Jun is used to working long overtime hours to earn the bulk of her income. But after Foxconn announced it will cut hours for its employees, she and other employees expressed concern to Reuters that they won't make enough money to support their families.
Chuckle: anyone here who ever worked in a non-union shipyard in the US of A?
When I worked at Avondale Shipyard in Louisiana we worked a mandatory 14 hours of overtime every week. And if trade unions hadn't fought to get laws passed for overtime, it would have been straight time.
Which is what it was for guys working offshore oil drilling rigs. No OT for that work.
If Chinese law limits a work week to 49 hours then that should be respected, for better or worse.
I see this being quoted, but has anyone fact-checked this?
The Chinese labour law is very clear, and yes OT pay is mandatory, however I wasn't aware that the cap on hours worked/week was so low.
Workers at Apple supplier Foxconn are reportedly worried after it has been announced that their hours will be cut following an audit of its facilities.
Twenty-three-year-old Wu Jun is used to working long overtime hours to earn the bulk of her income. But after Foxconn announced it will cut hours for its employees, she and other employees expressed concern to Reuters that they won't make enough money to support their families.
Chuckle: anyone here who ever worked in a non-union shipyard in the US of A?
When I worked at Avondale Shipyard in Louisiana we worked a mandatory 14 hours of overtime every week. And if trade unions hadn't fought to get laws passed for overtime, it would have been straight time.
Which is what it was for guys working offshore oil drilling rigs. No OT for that work.
There is really nothing wrong with unions to occasionally balance salary and benefits negotiations (except for government employee unions, which I believe should be illegal). When unions force workers to join, that's where I draw the line.
I see this being quoted, but has anyone fact-checked this?
The Chinese labour law is very clear, and yes OT pay is mandatory, however I wasn't aware that the cap on hours worked/week was so low.
As far as I'm aware, those caps are regularly ignored because most workers WANT the extra money.
Why? Do you go out of your way to pay more for gas? for food? for housing? Do you prefer to only shop at stores that overpay their employees, relative to the competition?
There is an extremely simple and obvious solution: Pay them more.
It's embarrassing that the only reason they can make enough is by working tons of overtime. It would decrease Apple's profits slightly and the Foxconn CEO said it's entirely possible to do and he would love to give them pay increases.
Ah, ignorance is bliss! Let's say this again. THEY ALREADY MAKE A COMPETITIVE AND ABOVE MARKET WAGE. So now lets pay them significantly more. Then we have hyper inflation for food, housing, education, etc., so let's pay them even more again. Etc etc etc. Wages have already been rising so fast in China that basic food costs were rising last year in double digit increases in a single quarter, pork alone was up 50% year over year. But hey, we know what's best for them.
now the workers have more time to plan their suicides
The reality is that the suicide rate for high school students in the US is higher. Ignorance and arrogance abound.
Why? Do you go out of your way to pay more for gas? for food? for housing? Do you prefer to only shop at stores that overpay their employees, relative to the competition?
Yes on all accounts.