FWIW - I am going to ASSUME you guys are more than just fanboys... because none of the comments REALLY speak to how good/great the Nokia Lumia 800 and 900 phones actually are.
I've been using the iPhone since 2007, and gone through the last 3 iterations of it.
And to me... it's time Apple stop just rolling out a better camera, or video, or memory...
Dear Apple, how about a REALLY significant OS?
My point it, success, to me, is keeping Apple BACK from innovating.
I mean heck, when you sell THE BEST SELLING phone, what is there to motivate you to REALLY make it better?
The reason why people were SO disappointed with the 4s... it was an incremental upgrade at best from the 4. You can argue better camera or video or processor... but to users like me... was it worth the $199+ upgrade from a phone I bought 2 years ago that does essentially the same thing still?
If you disagree, then why does Apple tout Siri so much? Gimmick.
If anything you guys, you need to think bigger picture...
Microsoft and Nokia are rolling out a serious paradigm shift in mobile UI with live tile functions, not just more "widgets"...
A successful Nokia/Microsoft phone means Apple/Android developers will think "different" about their approach to phone OS/apps...
And not just keep riding the success wave... to mediocrity.
I definitely get your argument and am trying to give it a fair shake. I agree that a lack of competition reduces innovation and progress, but I have nothing to compare it to...What would Apple be producing if there was another company "X" who was quite similar? It's not that I flat out disagree, but I can't myself conceive of how they could innovate faster, and I wonder whether our expectations about progress are abnormally high.
My "opinion" (which could be demonstrably wrong) is that Apple has hit a sweet spot in the market, and I'll compare it to my efficiency in a game. When I'm in a "game" state, I'm playing to win, but not playing to survive precisely because the competition (things that make me die) are not enough of a threat, but there is enough pressure to keep me playing without straining the creative process or arbitrarily creating new models that look different but offer nothing new. Apple seems to be in this sweet spot. They've got the resources to innovate just as fast as is possible, but minus the desperation that would cause them to continuously sell as many silly things as possible in a desperate attempt to secure the market.
I realize I'm not giving anything concrete to back this up. It just seems to me that Apple is actually in a very rare niche in terms of efficiency/innovation/resources and market pressure. It seems to be just right...for them to produce the iPad, the new antenna, the high resolution display, etc. I don't think any other companies could have done this.
I'd enjoy hearing more concrete evidence for or against from people who understand this better than I do, but it does continue to be my belief that Apple IS innovating, and that our perception of how fast that should be is the product of over-expectation.
... So I sold the N73 and got a Sony Ericsson P990i. And then I learned how bad Symbian can be. The P990i was the worst POS phone I've ever had. Nothing worked. Figuring out basic functionality required consulting the handbook. It looked cool but it was truly horrific.
That brings back terrible memories. My company (I think that was in 2004?) gave me a P910i, the predecessor. I fully agree, that was definitely the most shameful device I have ever operated. A touchscreen (with stylus) registering nothing, that stupid fold-out keyboard that required a third hand to still hold the device while typing, and the most confusing software ever... Did the P990i also always loose the battery cover?
But, to be correct here, the GUI of these devices was NOT Symbian, it was UIQ. The Symbian part of these devices (the invisible part of the OS, handling cell communications, energy management, etc.) was flawless. Never dropped a call, battery life was outstanding despite the, for that age, huge display... Symbian died because of clowns messing up the GUI again and again (and Nokia letting it happen), but until very late in the game, the GUI was not part of Symbian.
You write this as 'tho that's a fact when, actually it's just your opinion, right?
Of course it's my opinion. How else can you use an unqualified superlative? If I wrote, "...is the 2nd best, according to an Engadget poll," then it would be a fact of the results of the opinions of the poll.
You write this as 'tho that's a fact when, actually it's just your opinion, right?
I have to admit, the 800 in white does look classy (no idea if it's the second-most beautiful, but it is far behind the 4(S) for sure). The black model just looks cheap and the cyan is a few years too late. With the 900 they screwed up their own design. The non-flush screen ruins the geometry and the fake-colored panel completes the cheap impression. It is quite obvious that they have rushed that out the door, Nokia's engineers can definitely do better.
With the 900 they screwed up their own design. The non-flush screen ruins the geometry and the fake-colored panel completes the cheap impression. It is quite obvious that they have rushed that out the door, Nokia's engineers can definitely do better.
As previously stated, my biggest issue with the 900 is the use of the same resolution display as the 3.7" models. I understand why they did it, but it poor form in 2012 nonetheless.
And Nokia would have been fine using Symbian or Meego or buying or building yet another OS?
I don't know if you can say that. The Nokia N9 is a really incredible phone, I own a white one with 64GB of ram and it puts the Lumia to shame, heck it put's almost every Android phone to shame, I won't say iOS because you'll rip me a new one.
Nokia is still my favorite mobile company every. I've owned every Nokia Communicator ever made, mostly because pre iPhone or Android their weren't many decent smart phones. Plus I am a real big fan of clamshell phones, I don't care how good a touchscreen gets it can never replace a clamshell with a good keyboard. It will be real horrible loss to loose Nokia if they go under. I really don't want to see the world turn into a two OS place. As much as you guys like iOS or Android there is still room on the planet for a few more good mobile systems.
I will buy the Nokia 808 Proview when it's released next month as I'm still a fan of Belle and I am very enthusiastic about replacing my Canon point and shoot with one that can share my photos automatically and has a friggen 41MP lens . Though I would totaly forget the whole idea if Canon would throw a sim card into a 5D .
Loosing Nokia here in Europe would be like you guys loosing Hershey chocolate in America.
Defying logic is to say that because Nokia was still making a profit before Elop signed on as CEO that Nokia would have continued to make a profit if he had not, despite the rapid drop YoY in profit.
You can't rationally defend this because there is nothing to suggest that Nokia was going to remain profitable. They had no viable products in the pipeline and no avenue to get themselves out of the hole they dug log before Elop was on board. The iCeberg (see what I did there?) had done its damage in 2007 and it was just a matter of time before the Nokianic sank below the water line.
[/quote]
Nokia was on a downward spiral when Elop took over but he's accelerated the decline rather than halted it. Nokia had a viable plan in MeeGo. The reviews for the N9 were far better than those the Lumia 800 or 900. Was there a viable ecosystem behind MeeGo? The signs were there its ecosystem was no worse than Windows Phone's.
Under Elop, Nokia is no longer in control of its own destiny. Thousands have been made redundant and they're doing worse than they were doing before. It's shameful.
I'd rather sink on my own ship than someone else's.
Well I wouldn't say that, it does a few things better, Facebook and Facebook messaging integration for one is unbelievable. Has the best mobile Office suit for a mobile I've seen and with Skydrive it's killer. It's also the easiest and fastest mobile OS I've seen so far. It's a really good OS but yes it's defiantly missing a few features and some good apps. Hopefully that will improve over time, hopefully.
Nokia was on a downward spiral when Elop took over but he's accelerated the decline rather than halted it. Nokia had a viable plan in MeeGo. The reviews for the N9 were far better than those the Lumia 800 or 900. Was there a viable ecosystem behind MeeGo? The signs were there its ecosystem was no worse than Windows Phone's.
Under Elop, Nokia is no longer in control of its own destiny. Thousands have been made redundant and they're doing worse than they were doing before. It's shameful.
I'd rather sink on my own ship than someone else's.
Yea I still can't get over what he did, at least give Meegos a fighting chance. No, no, let's kill everything and sign a exclusivity deal with Microsoft. Yet their still making Symbian phones so why not Meegos.
Their like Adobe who said Flash for mobile is dead but are still releasing updates. I swear there is a new update for Flash on my Galaxy Note like once a month it's ridiculous, last update was on March 28TH 11.1 to 11.2. Oh and you should read the release notes, this wasn't just a bug or security fix either, they added a laundry list of improvements. No really it's dead, seriously we mean it, then stop updating it! Sorry for that just venting.
Well I wouldn't say that, it does a few things better, Facebook and Facebook messaging integration for one is unbelievable. Has the best mobile Office suit for a mobile I've seen and with Skydrive it's killer. It's also the easiest and fastest mobile OS I've seen so far. It's a really good OS but yes it's defiantly missing a few features and some good apps. Hopefully that will improve over time, hopefully.
Of course it's my opinion. How else can you use an unqualified superlative? If I wrote, "...is the 2nd best, according to an Engadget poll," then it would be a fact of the results of the opinions of the poll.
Well for starters you might want to use the same method most of us use .... when we're not afraid to take a stand, rather than trying to straddle the line until we see which way the wind blows. ( imo ...imho ... just my 2 cents worth ) ... see how easy that is ?
It's not over yet until they're dead and buried and I for one refuse to loose hope. With Microsoft, Nokia and now AT&T dropping a bucket load of money into promoting the Nokia 900 it has a chance. Yes, there was a small hiccup with this bug but they have stated it will be rectified by next week and are even giving a cash credit to though's who already owns one. That's a class act if I ever seen one. Yes I'm a fan of Nokia and I want them to prosper. I fear that in the next two years the only two mobile OS's that will survive is iOS and Android. A world like that will suck big time. Hopefully Mozilla's B2G and Samsung's new Titzen/Bada OS will have a chance. As much as I like iOS and Android they are far from being the perfect OS, there is plenty of room in the market for more competition.
It's sucks too because the closets thing that has even come close towards my version of a perfect OS is Meegos, guys it's good, no BS, no fangirl talk, it's real good. However Nokia killed the project for Microsoft's unfinished OS. It has a lot of potential but it's not ready yet, I hope version 8 will be the savior everyone is looking for.
Whatever happens I foresee Microsoft buying Nokia for pennies on the dollar in the and that makes me sad, very sad.
Well for starters you might want to use the same method most of us use .... when we're not afraid to take a stand, rather than trying to straddle the line until we see which way the wind blows. ( imo ...imho ... just my 2 cents worth ) ... see how easy that is ?
So what you are suggesting isfact and not your opinion because you didn't include IMO or IMHO? Or can we assume from the use of the modal verb might and the context of your comment that you are stating an opinion that can't easily be confused as an unwavering declaration of fact.
What would have been the right horse for Nokia to bet on?
Nokia should have taken all the money they spent on this and bought Apple stock, they'd be money ahead. Oddly enough, when Apple comes out with the next generation iPhone, Nokia could have made money then instead of having Apple crap all over what little inertia they might have by then.
The problem with Nokia is defection. People who used Nokia now leave because they don't want a Windows Phone. They either go Android or Apple now. That's why OS share of Windows Phone stays low, even now Nokia sells them. Nokia should have been faster in developing Meego. Same goes for RIM. And also the sunken Palm. All have developed their new OS too late and too slow. Still, if we go back into history, Apple was also slow. From 1997 to 2001 Apple had no real alternative to Windows 95/98 etc. But once Mac OS X was in place, it paved the way for Apple's future for the next 20 years.
Comments
FWIW - I am going to ASSUME you guys are more than just fanboys... because none of the comments REALLY speak to how good/great the Nokia Lumia 800 and 900 phones actually are.
I've been using the iPhone since 2007, and gone through the last 3 iterations of it.
And to me... it's time Apple stop just rolling out a better camera, or video, or memory...
Dear Apple, how about a REALLY significant OS?
My point it, success, to me, is keeping Apple BACK from innovating.
I mean heck, when you sell THE BEST SELLING phone, what is there to motivate you to REALLY make it better?
The reason why people were SO disappointed with the 4s... it was an incremental upgrade at best from the 4. You can argue better camera or video or processor... but to users like me... was it worth the $199+ upgrade from a phone I bought 2 years ago that does essentially the same thing still?
If you disagree, then why does Apple tout Siri so much? Gimmick.
If anything you guys, you need to think bigger picture...
Microsoft and Nokia are rolling out a serious paradigm shift in mobile UI with live tile functions, not just more "widgets"...
A successful Nokia/Microsoft phone means Apple/Android developers will think "different" about their approach to phone OS/apps...
And not just keep riding the success wave... to mediocrity.
I definitely get your argument and am trying to give it a fair shake. I agree that a lack of competition reduces innovation and progress, but I have nothing to compare it to...What would Apple be producing if there was another company "X" who was quite similar? It's not that I flat out disagree, but I can't myself conceive of how they could innovate faster, and I wonder whether our expectations about progress are abnormally high.
My "opinion" (which could be demonstrably wrong) is that Apple has hit a sweet spot in the market, and I'll compare it to my efficiency in a game. When I'm in a "game" state, I'm playing to win, but not playing to survive precisely because the competition (things that make me die) are not enough of a threat, but there is enough pressure to keep me playing without straining the creative process or arbitrarily creating new models that look different but offer nothing new. Apple seems to be in this sweet spot. They've got the resources to innovate just as fast as is possible, but minus the desperation that would cause them to continuously sell as many silly things as possible in a desperate attempt to secure the market.
I realize I'm not giving anything concrete to back this up. It just seems to me that Apple is actually in a very rare niche in terms of efficiency/innovation/resources and market pressure. It seems to be just right...for them to produce the iPad, the new antenna, the high resolution display, etc. I don't think any other companies could have done this.
I'd enjoy hearing more concrete evidence for or against from people who understand this better than I do, but it does continue to be my belief that Apple IS innovating, and that our perception of how fast that should be is the product of over-expectation.
... So I sold the N73 and got a Sony Ericsson P990i. And then I learned how bad Symbian can be. The P990i was the worst POS phone I've ever had. Nothing worked. Figuring out basic functionality required consulting the handbook. It looked cool but it was truly horrific.
That brings back terrible memories. My company (I think that was in 2004?) gave me a P910i, the predecessor. I fully agree, that was definitely the most shameful device I have ever operated. A touchscreen (with stylus) registering nothing, that stupid fold-out keyboard that required a third hand to still hold the device while typing, and the most confusing software ever... Did the P990i also always loose the battery cover?
But, to be correct here, the GUI of these devices was NOT Symbian, it was UIQ. The Symbian part of these devices (the invisible part of the OS, handling cell communications, energy management, etc.) was flawless. Never dropped a call, battery life was outstanding despite the, for that age, huge display... Symbian died because of clowns messing up the GUI again and again (and Nokia letting it happen), but until very late in the game, the GUI was not part of Symbian.
I've only heard of the $100 offer because of the glitch but haven't heard of any sell outs or lines......
That's too bad because the Lumia is the 2nd best looking handset on the market and WinPh is the 2nd best mobile OS on the market.
You write this as 'tho that's a fact when, actually it's just your opinion, right?
You write this as 'tho that's a fact when, actually it's just your opinion, right?
Of course it's my opinion. How else can you use an unqualified superlative? If I wrote, "...is the 2nd best, according to an Engadget poll," then it would be a fact of the results of the opinions of the poll.
You write this as 'tho that's a fact when, actually it's just your opinion, right?
I have to admit, the 800 in white does look classy (no idea if it's the second-most beautiful, but it is far behind the 4(S) for sure). The black model just looks cheap and the cyan is a few years too late. With the 900 they screwed up their own design. The non-flush screen ruins the geometry and the fake-colored panel completes the cheap impression. It is quite obvious that they have rushed that out the door, Nokia's engineers can definitely do better.
With the 900 they screwed up their own design. The non-flush screen ruins the geometry and the fake-colored panel completes the cheap impression. It is quite obvious that they have rushed that out the door, Nokia's engineers can definitely do better.
As previously stated, my biggest issue with the 900 is the use of the same resolution display as the 3.7" models. I understand why they did it, but it poor form in 2012 nonetheless.
Paradigm shift?? That guy must be smoking.
The Verge's review was spot on:
http://www.theverge.com/2012/4/3/292...mia-900-review
And Nokia would have been fine using Symbian or Meego or buying or building yet another OS?
I don't know if you can say that. The Nokia N9 is a really incredible phone, I own a white one with 64GB of ram and it puts the Lumia to shame, heck it put's almost every Android phone to shame, I won't say iOS because you'll rip me a new one.
Nokia is still my favorite mobile company every. I've owned every Nokia Communicator ever made, mostly because pre iPhone or Android their weren't many decent smart phones. Plus I am a real big fan of clamshell phones, I don't care how good a touchscreen gets it can never replace a clamshell with a good keyboard. It will be real horrible loss to loose Nokia if they go under. I really don't want to see the world turn into a two OS place. As much as you guys like iOS or Android there is still room on the planet for a few more good mobile systems.
I will buy the Nokia 808 Proview when it's released next month as I'm still a fan of Belle and I am very enthusiastic about replacing my Canon point and shoot with one that can share my photos automatically and has a friggen 41MP lens
Loosing Nokia here in Europe would be like you guys loosing Hershey chocolate in America.
Long live Nokia ........
Defying logic is to say that because Nokia was still making a profit before Elop signed on as CEO that Nokia would have continued to make a profit if he had not, despite the rapid drop YoY in profit.
You can't rationally defend this because there is nothing to suggest that Nokia was going to remain profitable. They had no viable products in the pipeline and no avenue to get themselves out of the hole they dug log before Elop was on board. The iCeberg (see what I did there?) had done its damage in 2007 and it was just a matter of time before the Nokianic sank below the water line.
[/quote]
Nokia was on a downward spiral when Elop took over but he's accelerated the decline rather than halted it. Nokia had a viable plan in MeeGo. The reviews for the N9 were far better than those the Lumia 800 or 900. Was there a viable ecosystem behind MeeGo? The signs were there its ecosystem was no worse than Windows Phone's.
Under Elop, Nokia is no longer in control of its own destiny. Thousands have been made redundant and they're doing worse than they were doing before. It's shameful.
I'd rather sink on my own ship than someone else's.
The Lumia is pretty but lacks substance. It does nothing better than iOS or Android. It's basically WebOS with live tiles and no card tricks.
Paradigm shift?? That guy must be smoking.
The Verge's review was spot on:
http://www.theverge.com/2012/4/3/292...mia-900-review
Well I wouldn't say that, it does a few things better, Facebook and Facebook messaging integration for one is unbelievable. Has the best mobile Office suit for a mobile I've seen and with Skydrive it's killer. It's also the easiest and fastest mobile OS I've seen so far. It's a really good OS but yes it's defiantly missing a few features and some good apps. Hopefully that will improve over time, hopefully.
Nokia was on a downward spiral when Elop took over but he's accelerated the decline rather than halted it. Nokia had a viable plan in MeeGo. The reviews for the N9 were far better than those the Lumia 800 or 900. Was there a viable ecosystem behind MeeGo? The signs were there its ecosystem was no worse than Windows Phone's.
Under Elop, Nokia is no longer in control of its own destiny. Thousands have been made redundant and they're doing worse than they were doing before. It's shameful.
I'd rather sink on my own ship than someone else's.
Yea I still can't get over what he did, at least give Meegos a fighting chance. No, no, let's kill everything and sign a exclusivity deal with Microsoft. Yet their still making Symbian phones so why not Meegos.
Their like Adobe who said Flash for mobile is dead but are still releasing updates. I swear there is a new update for Flash on my Galaxy Note like once a month it's ridiculous, last update was on March 28TH 11.1 to 11.2. Oh and you should read the release notes, this wasn't just a bug or security fix either, they added a laundry list of improvements. No really it's dead, seriously we mean it, then stop updating it! Sorry for that just venting.
Well I wouldn't say that, it does a few things better, Facebook and Facebook messaging integration for one is unbelievable. Has the best mobile Office suit for a mobile I've seen and with Skydrive it's killer. It's also the easiest and fastest mobile OS I've seen so far. It's a really good OS but yes it's defiantly missing a few features and some good apps. Hopefully that will improve over time, hopefully.
At this point it makes little difference.
Of course it's my opinion. How else can you use an unqualified superlative? If I wrote, "...is the 2nd best, according to an Engadget poll," then it would be a fact of the results of the opinions of the poll.
Well for starters you might want to use the same method most of us use .... when we're not afraid to take a stand, rather than trying to straddle the line until we see which way the wind blows. ( imo ...imho ... just my 2 cents worth ) ... see how easy that is ?
Sinking ship.
At this point it makes little difference.
It's not over yet until they're dead and buried and I for one refuse to loose hope. With Microsoft, Nokia and now AT&T dropping a bucket load of money into promoting the Nokia 900 it has a chance. Yes, there was a small hiccup with this bug but they have stated it will be rectified by next week and are even giving a cash credit to though's who already owns one. That's a class act if I ever seen one. Yes I'm a fan of Nokia and I want them to prosper. I fear that in the next two years the only two mobile OS's that will survive is iOS and Android. A world like that will suck big time. Hopefully Mozilla's B2G and Samsung's new Titzen/Bada OS will have a chance. As much as I like iOS and Android they are far from being the perfect OS, there is plenty of room in the market for more competition.
It's sucks too because the closets thing that has even come close towards my version of a perfect OS is Meegos, guys it's good, no BS, no fangirl talk, it's real good. However Nokia killed the project for Microsoft's unfinished OS. It has a lot of potential but it's not ready yet, I hope version 8 will be the savior everyone is looking for.
Whatever happens I foresee Microsoft buying Nokia for pennies on the dollar in the and that makes me sad, very sad.
Well for starters you might want to use the same method most of us use .... when we're not afraid to take a stand, rather than trying to straddle the line until we see which way the wind blows. ( imo ...imho ... just my 2 cents worth ) ... see how easy that is ?
So what you are suggesting is fact and not your opinion because you didn't include IMO or IMHO? Or can we assume from the use of the modal verb might and the context of your comment that you are stating an opinion that can't easily be confused as an unwavering declaration of fact.
LOL - it looks like the anodized aluminum iPod from several years ago. Very innovative!!!!
THAT'S where I saw that before!!!!
Repeat after me:
iPhone: Alpha
Lumia: Beta
What would have been the right horse for Nokia to bet on?
Nokia should have taken all the money they spent on this and bought Apple stock, they'd be money ahead. Oddly enough, when Apple comes out with the next generation iPhone, Nokia could have made money then instead of having Apple crap all over what little inertia they might have by then.
What would have been the right horse for Nokia to bet on?
MeeGo, of course.