Your vendetta against me is blinding you to what I'm saying. You may want to look to that.
When Apple releases a product, they release a product that can serve the purposes of 70-80 percent of the people for whom that product is being marketed. They don't care if some toes stick out or you can't pull the covers over your head, because the majority is covered, and that has been successful (and shown to ring true, if you look at marketshare) ever since the introduction of the iPod.
No, but it will push things out of balance.
And yet you're screaming for them to enter a market that has already been saturated with dozens of Android phones, their existence being nothing but a response to Apple taking over the rest of the entire market.
{Citation needed.} I'm certainly not saying it's the only reason, I'm saying you can't say it isn't a reason.
When you think of an actual response, let me know. I'd love to continue this discussion to improve my analogies.
Right. Apple offers a screen size and everyone else offers the others. No one's forced to buy Apple products.
Funny how three years ago it did. Funny how four years ago people thought the iPhone was too big. And funny how your statement is based on your viewpoint, not everyone's.
Well, I already have a first-gen. It's sitting right here. I've always wanted to use it as a phone. It's not slow at all, and all my apps still work on it.
That's certainly the case.
Aside: deep red italic text should probably be the universal sign of bleeding sarcasm.
Funny. Because I thought the idea was bringing Android users over, because the only thing they care about is big screens. Apparently the perspective of these people, who have never used an iPhone, don't use one now, nor have cared enough to purchase one in the past four generations doesn't mean anything to anyone…
… So Apple shouldn't be making a 4" phone to suit their "needs". Because they're ridiculous and irrational.
See the problem there?
1. 4" Smartphones are not a market in and of themselves they are just one way of segmenting the smartphone market.
2. Apple would not be entering a saturated market, there is no iOS smartphone in that size. That device doesn't exist. Its not as if people are suggesting Apple make a low quality, low margin product here, like was being thrown about with netbooks.
3. The idea should NOT be bringing Android users over, not when there is so much more smartphone market as yet to be established. Its simply addressing another (huge) portion of the premium market in a field apple is a huge player in. When has apple ever NOT done this?
I agree. I think Apple has grown now to the point where they might consider two current models. Given that they also sell previous year models as well for $99 and free, this would pretty much cover the entire market for anyone and at any price range. They could easily make a new LTE iPhone with a 3.5" to even 3.7" that would be the same size as the current iphone. They could also make an iPhone in the 4" to possibly even 4.3" size range to assuage people who really do want a larger screen. Everybody is happy and problem solved. Then and only then would we see which model people actually prefer when they have a choice.
I think 4" is perfect, still small enough to use with one hand, but not as cramped on content. Put an iPhone next to even a "small" Android phone like the Nexus S (4"), and go to any web page, the difference in how much content can be displayed is huge.
I disagree. If a website is properly formatted for mobile size screens, then the iPhone's current 3.5" display is good balance between portability and legibility. Unlike these forums.
1. 4" Smartphones are not a market in and of themselves they are just one way of segmenting the smartphone market.
Yes, exactly.
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2. Apple would not be entering a saturated market, there is no iOS smartphone in that size.
Except you've just said the opposite in the previous sentence, not to mention this conclusion is fallacy.
The 3.5"+ market exists and is filled with phones already. Is it to the saturation point? Quite possibly; we've had phones larger than logical use for a few years now.
Apple either creates new markets or enters existing markets by completely ignoring everything already there, making their solution either drastically different or drastically better. Usually the former begets the latter.
Smartphones existed before the iPhone, but you'd be hard pressed to call one of them a smartphone today. Personal music players existed before the iPod, but you'd be hard pressed to call them PMPs today. The change is what makes Apple successful.
Just making an exact copy of what is already there+iOS does not make a larger phone successful.
This is also my reason for disbelief in the Apple television. Unless Apple plans to completely ignore the cable and satellite providers and their archaic way of pushing us content, they are doomed to fail in all aspects of the television industry if they release an HDTV. Similarly, they are doomed (though as it is by their own choice, it doesn't cause any damage to them) to remain a "hobby" if they do not do the same for the Apple TV.
Except you've just said the opposite in the previous sentence, not to mention this conclusion is fallacy.
The 3.5"+ market exists and is filled with phones already. Is it to the saturation point? Quite possibly; we've had phones larger than logical use for a few years now.
Apple either creates new markets or enters existing markets by completely ignoring everything already there, making their solution either drastically different or drastically better. Usually the former begets the latter.
Smartphones existed before the iPhone, but you'd be hard pressed to call one of them a smartphone today. Personal music players existed before the iPod, but you'd be hard pressed to call them PMPs today. The change is what makes Apple successful.
Just making an exact copy of what is already there+iOS does not make a larger phone successful.
This is also my reason for disbelief in the Apple television. Unless Apple plans to completely ignore the cable and satellite providers and their archaic way of pushing us content, they are doomed to fail in all aspects of the television industry if they release an HDTV. Similarly, they are doomed (though as it is by their own choice, it doesn't cause any damage to them) to remain a "hobby" if they do not do the same for the Apple TV.
No I did not, I said that a "3.5 market" doesnt exist.
We are largely talking semantics with that, but the point most important in my mind is that there is a huge portion of the premium smartphone market that Apple is not addressing, and they have never done that in a market they are players in. That IS their segment of any market they chose to enter.
The smartphone market isn't even close to saturated at this point. Even the US is only at 50%. When you are looking at the premium porition of that market or potential market, there is a strong case to be made that one size does not fit 70-80% of that sector.
I actually think expanding the lineup makes more sense than the one size fits all approach now. Remember apple started in this with much more modest goals. 1% of the market. Its not beyond reason that its time to reconfigure those goals and then your method of addressing them. Clearly Samsung and others have shown there is a large portion of the premium smartphone hardware market that apple is not appealing to. Its not a minority group of people buying those phones. There is no reason for apple to force a huge group of potential customers to piss off simply because they prefer a larger screen size.
While that's true, I don't think it applies as much here. There just isn't that much difference between a 3.5" and a 4" phone - certainly not enough to offer both if that's what you're getting at (I'm not sure what you're suggesting).
Where it DOES apply is the iPad market. I'm not sure that they expected the market to grow this large and this fast. At the time, a single iPad made sense. Now that the market has grown immensely and a large number of people are buying 7" tablets, I don't think it's unreasonable to offer both a 7" and 10" tablet.
I'm curious about the 1% number, though. It seemed more like Jobs was saying "EVEN IF we only got 1%, that's a lot of phones" because no one would have ever believed them if they said that target was 5 or 6%. I don't know, though.
Except you've just said the opposite in the previous sentence, not to mention this conclusion is fallacy.
The 3.5"+ market exists and is filled with phones already. Is it to the saturation point? Quite possibly; we've had phones larger than logical use for a few years now.
Apple either creates new markets or enters existing markets by completely ignoring everything already there, making their solution either drastically different or drastically better. Usually the former begets the latter.
Smartphones existed before the iPhone, but you'd be hard pressed to call one of them a smartphone today. Personal music players existed before the iPod, but you'd be hard pressed to call them PMPs today. The change is what makes Apple successful.
Just making an exact copy of what is already there+iOS does not make a larger phone successful.
This is also my reason for disbelief in the Apple television. Unless Apple plans to completely ignore the cable and satellite providers and their archaic way of pushing us content, they are doomed to fail in all aspects of the television industry if they release an HDTV. Similarly, they are doomed (though as it is by their own choice, it doesn't cause any damage to them) to remain a "hobby" if they do not do the same for the Apple TV.
Your comparison of pre-iphone smartphones vs iphone and Phones 3.5" vs Larger screened phones, is apples to oranges. A very poor analogy. The weight you are giving to a 3.5 inch screen isn't logical.
I sure as hell didn't get blown away by the original iphone because I found the screen to be the perfect size, not too small, not too big. That would have never even crossed my mind if asked.
While that's true, I don't think it applies as much here. There just isn't that much difference between a 3.5" and a 4" phone - certainly not enough to offer both if that's what you're getting at (I'm not sure what you're suggesting).
Where it DOES apply is the iPad market. I'm not sure that they expected the market to grow this large and this fast. At the time, a single iPad made sense. Now that the market has grown immensely and a large number of people are buying 7" tablets, I don't think it's unreasonable to offer both a 7" and 10" tablet.
I'm curious about the 1% number, though. It seemed more like Jobs was saying "EVEN IF we only got 1%, that's a lot of phones" because no one would have ever believed them if they said that target was 5 or 6%. I don't know, though.
I agree, keeping a 3.5 and adding a 4.3 or 4.5 would be far more logical.
I dont see exactly why I can't just replace a word or two in one of your sentances and ask you why the same wouldn't be correct for smartphones -
"Now that the market has grown immensely and a large number of people are buying 4.5" Smartphones, I don't think it's unreasonable to offer both a 3.5" and 4.5" smartphone"
Do you think that sounds any less reasonable that way?
I agree, or if its a properly put together app. On my homebrew forums its a great size and far faster than any out in the regular www.
This forum is very 1.0-like but does your home-brewed forum have 100s of database tables with right, left joins and subqueries, dozens of include files, remote ajax calls to stock quote severs, RSS feeds, multiple languages, 1000s of concurrent users, embedded advertisements and pushing a continuous10Mb of bandwidth? Probably not, so it would be difficult to compare it to a commercial application on the level of this one, phpBB, VBulletin etc.
This forum is very 1.0-like but does your home-brewed forum have 100s of database tables with right, left joins and subqueries, dozens of include files, remote ajax calls to stock quote severs, RSS feeds, multiple languages, 1000s of concurrent users, embedded advertisements and pushing a continuous10Mb of bandwidth? Probably not, so it would be difficult to compare it to a commercial application on the level of this one, phpBB, VBulletin etc.
Fair point. its unfortunate though, because this forum and its patrons doesn't seem better off, IMO, for having those features. But thats the economics of it, so I understand.
Most people would want a 4.5" screen iPhone. Apple's plan is too squeeze as much sales as possible without changing much e.g iPhone 4S. They could have changed to a larger screen.
The iPhone 4S sells well does not mean the users do not want a larger screen if available. So the next model will be 4" and they will see how well it sells. Then the next year they will go to 4.5" screen. But Apple is no longer leading the design and technology trend, even though the iPhones still sell very well.
Fair point. its unfortunate though, because this forum and its patrons doesn't seem better off, IMO, for having those features. But thats the economics of it, so I understand.
One thing that this forum does do better than the others is that the url is not a searchable pattern for bots to attack so I would imagine that there is a lot less spam posts because it doesn't employ a universal script such as "showthread.php" which if you did a Google query it brings back 2,930,000,000 results. It might be a bit slower because of that though since it is using a string as part of the index rather than just a thread ID integer.
Edit: also it kind of looks like it is built in Rails which is not known for speed to begin with. Not sure maybe someone else knows?
One thing that this forum does do better than the others is that the url is not a searchable pattern for bots to attack so I would imagine that there is a lot less spam posts because it doesn't employ a universal script such as "showthread.php" which if you did a in Google query it brings back 2,930,000,000 results. It might be a bit slower because of that though since it is using a string as the index rather than a thread ID integer.
I frequent probably 4 different boards all of which are very different in content, target audience, size....etc. Absolutely none of them get spam posts. I only ever see that in comment sections of blogs and articles....
Most people would want a 4.5" screen iPhone. Apple's plan is too squeeze as much sales as possible without changing much e.g iPhone 4S. They could have changed to a larger screen.
The iPhone 4S sells well does not mean the users do not want a larger screen if available. So the next model will be 4" and they will see how well it sells. Then the next year they will go to 4.5" screen. But Apple is no longer leading the design and technology trend, even though the iPhones still sell very well.
So a plastic Samsung phone is leading in design because it has a larger screen than the iPhone? I don't think so.
I have my iPhone 4S right here and there's enough real estate to hit nearly 4.5" diagonally. Apple could hit larger target audiences without making the thing physically larger.
I've read the arguments and then started analyzing my usage. How many times do I use the iPhone 1-handed? Not very often. I even dial numbers (when I'm not using Siri) with 2 hands. I don't even hold the phone to my head with one hand, preferring to use the speakers as I hold it while I'm walking. Or it lays flat in my car while Bluetooth takes the audio.
So for me, and likely many many others, using their iPhone is almost always a 2-handed operation. I hold it in one hand and interact with it with the other. If I'm using it this way 99% of the time, I would definitely appreciate a larger screen. I, too, am tired of squinting and scrolling to read the occasional web page.
I'd even offer that there is some room to make the device physically larger. Just a tad. 4.5 - 5" seems like a better target. The market will decide as Apple moves along.
And while they're at it, beef up the speakers.....
Your vendetta against me is blinding you to what I'm saying. You may want to look to that.
Vendetta? Nice try. I have a vendetta against extreme irrationality. That's all.
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When Apple releases a product, they release a product that can serve the purposes of 70-80 percent of the people for whom that product is being marketed. They don't care if some toes stick out or you can't pull the covers over your head, because the majority is covered, and that has been successful (and shown to ring true, if you look at marketshare) ever since the introduction of the iPod.
Yet you proclaim that a 4" screen wouldn't serve the purposes of the vast majority..based on zero evidence, just because you said so. My arguments towards your points are not and were never based on my own opinion, which is irrelevant, but market realties that you seem completely dismissive and out of touch with.
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No, but it will push things out of balance.
Again, cause you say so, right?
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And yet you're screaming for them to enter a market that has already been saturated with dozens of Android phones, their existence being nothing but a response to Apple taking over the rest of the entire market.
Screaming? You're the only one who's shrieking here. I'm arguing that a 4" phone won't change things drastically, where the hell have I demanded or advocated it? Stop misrepresenting things. Also, your implication is insanely laughable. You're stating that the 'market' is simply divided by screen sizes? Really? That by slightly changing the screen size, Apple will effectively be changing markets? Should Apple not have released an 11" MBA because there was already a market of 11" netbooks? Of course that argument is idiotic, just like yours. A MBA is not a netbook, and an iPhone is differentiated from an Android phone with more than just screen size. It shows how little you understand about Apple, or why people like Apple products, if you believe everyone will suddenly jump ship because of this one spec. Screen size has NEVER been the primary reason people choose to buy iPhones, yet you're stating that this is the sole factor that defines 'markets'. A 4" screen would not be a response to anything, but if they chose to go that route it would be a decision Apple has carefully thought out in terms of bettering its own product. You clearly have no understanding what a 'market' is. There is no 3.5" and 4.0" market. There are only products, and a 4" iPhone would still be an iPhone regardless.
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When you think of an actual response, let me know. I'd love to continue this discussion to improve my analogies.
An actual response to what? Your analogy? I gave you one, which is all the response you deserved. That uour analogy was idiotic, and I even took the time to explain why. What kind of response do you want, pray tell, to your 'a 4" iPhone will be a limousine" analogy? It was an analogy that showed how fundamentally flawed your understanding is, so I wonder why you chose to include it if you mock the fact that I responded to it.
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Right. Apple offers a screen size and everyone else offers the others. No one's forced to buy Apple products.
Your point? Again, you imply screen size is the main reason people choose iPhones. Again, ridiculous, and disconnected.
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Funny how three years ago it did. Funny how four years ago people thought the iPhone was too big. And funny how your statement is based on your viewpoint, not everyone's.
Unlike you, I don't pretend to speak for everyone, as you always do. And unlike you, I don't shove my opinion down other people's throats and proclaim it to be divine. Opinion should be based on verifiable facts and realities. Do you realize that an appstore wasn't even envisioned during the design of the iPhone? It's clear even Steve Jobs did not imagine what the iPhone would become, and the myriad applications that people would use it for. Yet you don't think that MAYBE all these expanded uses might warrant a slightly larger screen? That 3.5" should live on forever because it was the original size? I know dozens of people who own iPhones, of all ages and in all walks of life. From comments Ive heard from them, almost every single one has said they love the phone but think the screen is too tiny. I have never heard a comment that its too large. Sure, my evidence is anecdotal, but I can't imagine its too far removed from impressions elsewhere. I'm gonna take a wild-guess and say that from the amound of posts you have on this forum, you don't get out much. WHich is why you're simply echoeing the voices in your head, and basing your opinions on nothing but your own disconnected view, not on actually observing normal people using their phones and hearing their comments. So my view is colored by my own experience as well as what Ive seen from dozens of others, friends, family, colleages, acquaintances, etc using iPhones. Your viewpoint, is based on nothing but a rigid ideology that has no basis in reality, as evidenced by your insane analogies.
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Well, I already have a first-gen. It's sitting right here. I've always wanted to use it as a phone. It's not slow at all, and all my apps still work on it.
Another statement which shows how little bearing you have to a normal, average iPhone user. Or any smartphone user. My dad is the least technically inclined person I know, and all he used his 1st gen phone was for making calls, texting, and emails. Yet I replaced it for him last year because of his complaints about how slow it was. He ran no extra apps. Beyond that, I don't know a single person who still uses a 1st gen iPhone. The fact that you consider doing so, again, shows you're in a very extreme fringe, yet proclaim to speak for the majority of people and how Apple should accomodate those people. Nobody cares what apps you use. It's a fact that the majority of apps in the appstore are not compatible with the original iPhone anymore, and I don't recall seeing ANY of the big, high quality, well known apps being compatible recently- AT ALL. So you'll be cut off from the majority of the apps/features people use while using a 1st gen, which uses what is now ancient tech, and you're completely ok making that sacrifice, yet pretend to speak for the 'majority'. I find my iPhone 4 to be slow often times, as do others I know. Whats funnier is that you threaten 'never to buy another iPhone', as if Apple cares about customers like you who haven't purchased an iPhone in 5 years. Again, how the hell can you speak for what the majority want when you don't even use a semi-recent iPhone? I couldn't care less what you use, but continuing to make threats of not buying the next iPhone, and of speaking for iPhone users, are incredibly pathetic and empty in light of this.
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That's certainly the case.
Aside: deep red italic text should probably be the universal sign of bleeding sarcasm.
You can be sarcastic all you want, doesn't make my point invalid, and you're too cowardly to even address it. You don't currently use an iPhone, you plan on using a 1st gen in the future, so clearly whatever new innovations, features, hardware, and software Apple has introduced in their mobile line in the past few years means nothing to you. ie. if you had the slightest care for any of these you would have made the effort to get a phone within the last 3 generations. How does my statement contradict what you said? It's right there. You don't use, nor care to use anything that Apple has introduced in their iPhone line within the past few years.
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Funny. Because I thought the idea was bringing Android users over, because the only thing they care about is big screens. Apparently the perspective of these people, who have never used an iPhone, don't use one now, nor have cared enough to purchase one in the past four generations doesn't mean anything to anyone…
You're not making sense, then again you never do.
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… So Apple shouldn't be making a 4" phone to suit their "needs". Because they're ridiculous and irrational.
See the problem there?
No, I don't. Apple has not shown itself to be ridiculous and irrational. You have. Consistently. On many, many occasions. But carry on. You need to pad that post count somehow, and I guess the easiest way is to continue ranting about how you'll never buy the next Apple product, because of some horse-shit reasoning. Why don't you break down for us again why the next phone will never be called the iPhone 5, and how you'll be 'finished' with Apple if thats the case? Hilarious how often you threaten to stop being Apple's customer, when you can't be bothered to use their products anyway, and don't understand the 1st thing about them nor their users, nor human beings in general. Get out of your house, get some fresh air, and maybe you'll be able to claw your way out of xenophobic ideological hole you've dug yourself. Your basement isn't real life, stop making absolute statements proclaiming what people want and what Apple should do.
1. 4" Smartphones are not a market in and of themselves they are just one way of segmenting the smartphone market. 2. Apple would not be entering a saturated market, there is no iOS smartphone in that size. That device doesn't exist. Its not as if people are suggesting Apple make a low quality, low margin product here, like was being thrown about with netbooks. 3. The idea should NOT be bringing Android users over, not when there is so much more smartphone market as yet to be established. Its simply addressing another (huge) portion of the premium market in a field apple is a huge player in. When has apple ever NOT done this?
You're making too much sense, I predict you will be responded to with some assinine analogies involving limousines, or maybe elephants.
Comments
Your vendetta against me is blinding you to what I'm saying. You may want to look to that.
When Apple releases a product, they release a product that can serve the purposes of 70-80 percent of the people for whom that product is being marketed. They don't care if some toes stick out or you can't pull the covers over your head, because the majority is covered, and that has been successful (and shown to ring true, if you look at marketshare) ever since the introduction of the iPod.
No, but it will push things out of balance.
And yet you're screaming for them to enter a market that has already been saturated with dozens of Android phones, their existence being nothing but a response to Apple taking over the rest of the entire market.
{Citation needed.} I'm certainly not saying it's the only reason, I'm saying you can't say it isn't a reason.
When you think of an actual response, let me know. I'd love to continue this discussion to improve my analogies.
Right. Apple offers a screen size and everyone else offers the others. No one's forced to buy Apple products.
Funny how three years ago it did. Funny how four years ago people thought the iPhone was too big. And funny how your statement is based on your viewpoint, not everyone's.
Well, I already have a first-gen. It's sitting right here. I've always wanted to use it as a phone. It's not slow at all, and all my apps still work on it.
That's certainly the case.
Aside: deep red italic text should probably be the universal sign of bleeding sarcasm.
Funny. Because I thought the idea was bringing Android users over, because the only thing they care about is big screens. Apparently the perspective of these people, who have never used an iPhone, don't use one now, nor have cared enough to purchase one in the past four generations doesn't mean anything to anyone…
… So Apple shouldn't be making a 4" phone to suit their "needs". Because they're ridiculous and irrational.
See the problem there?
1. 4" Smartphones are not a market in and of themselves they are just one way of segmenting the smartphone market.2. Apple would not be entering a saturated market, there is no iOS smartphone in that size. That device doesn't exist. Its not as if people are suggesting Apple make a low quality, low margin product here, like was being thrown about with netbooks.
3. The idea should NOT be bringing Android users over, not when there is so much more smartphone market as yet to be established. Its simply addressing another (huge) portion of the premium market in a field apple is a huge player in. When has apple ever NOT done this?
Their originally stated goal was 1% of the market, which makes their current success all the more impressive.
Thats right. 1%.I agree. I think Apple has grown now to the point where they might consider two current models. Given that they also sell previous year models as well for $99 and free, this would pretty much cover the entire market for anyone and at any price range. They could easily make a new LTE iPhone with a 3.5" to even 3.7" that would be the same size as the current iphone. They could also make an iPhone in the 4" to possibly even 4.3" size range to assuage people who really do want a larger screen. Everybody is happy and problem solved. Then and only then would we see which model people actually prefer when they have a choice.
I disagree. If a website is properly formatted for mobile size screens, then the iPhone's current 3.5" display is good balance between portability and legibility. Unlike these forums.
On my homebrew forums its a great size and far faster than any out in the regular www.
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Originally Posted by Jcoz
1. 4" Smartphones are not a market in and of themselves they are just one way of segmenting the smartphone market.
Yes, exactly.
Quote:
2. Apple would not be entering a saturated market, there is no iOS smartphone in that size.
Except you've just said the opposite in the previous sentence, not to mention this conclusion is fallacy.
The 3.5"+ market exists and is filled with phones already. Is it to the saturation point? Quite possibly; we've had phones larger than logical use for a few years now.
Apple either creates new markets or enters existing markets by completely ignoring everything already there, making their solution either drastically different or drastically better. Usually the former begets the latter.
Smartphones existed before the iPhone, but you'd be hard pressed to call one of them a smartphone today. Personal music players existed before the iPod, but you'd be hard pressed to call them PMPs today. The change is what makes Apple successful.
Just making an exact copy of what is already there+iOS does not make a larger phone successful.
This is also my reason for disbelief in the Apple television. Unless Apple plans to completely ignore the cable and satellite providers and their archaic way of pushing us content, they are doomed to fail in all aspects of the television industry if they release an HDTV. Similarly, they are doomed (though as it is by their own choice, it doesn't cause any damage to them) to remain a "hobby" if they do not do the same for the Apple TV.
Yes, exactly.
Except you've just said the opposite in the previous sentence, not to mention this conclusion is fallacy.
The 3.5"+ market exists and is filled with phones already. Is it to the saturation point? Quite possibly; we've had phones larger than logical use for a few years now.
Apple either creates new markets or enters existing markets by completely ignoring everything already there, making their solution either drastically different or drastically better. Usually the former begets the latter.
Smartphones existed before the iPhone, but you'd be hard pressed to call one of them a smartphone today. Personal music players existed before the iPod, but you'd be hard pressed to call them PMPs today. The change is what makes Apple successful.
Just making an exact copy of what is already there+iOS does not make a larger phone successful.
This is also my reason for disbelief in the Apple television. Unless Apple plans to completely ignore the cable and satellite providers and their archaic way of pushing us content, they are doomed to fail in all aspects of the television industry if they release an HDTV. Similarly, they are doomed (though as it is by their own choice, it doesn't cause any damage to them) to remain a "hobby" if they do not do the same for the Apple TV.
No I did not, I said that a "3.5 market" doesnt exist.We are largely talking semantics with that, but the point most important in my mind is that there is a huge portion of the premium smartphone market that Apple is not addressing, and they have never done that in a market they are players in. That IS their segment of any market they chose to enter.
The smartphone market isn't even close to saturated at this point. Even the US is only at 50%. When you are looking at the premium porition of that market or potential market, there is a strong case to be made that one size does not fit 70-80% of that sector.
While that's true, I don't think it applies as much here. There just isn't that much difference between a 3.5" and a 4" phone - certainly not enough to offer both if that's what you're getting at (I'm not sure what you're suggesting).
Where it DOES apply is the iPad market. I'm not sure that they expected the market to grow this large and this fast. At the time, a single iPad made sense. Now that the market has grown immensely and a large number of people are buying 7" tablets, I don't think it's unreasonable to offer both a 7" and 10" tablet.
I'm curious about the 1% number, though. It seemed more like Jobs was saying "EVEN IF we only got 1%, that's a lot of phones" because no one would have ever believed them if they said that target was 5 or 6%. I don't know, though.
Yes, exactly.
Except you've just said the opposite in the previous sentence, not to mention this conclusion is fallacy.
The 3.5"+ market exists and is filled with phones already. Is it to the saturation point? Quite possibly; we've had phones larger than logical use for a few years now.
Apple either creates new markets or enters existing markets by completely ignoring everything already there, making their solution either drastically different or drastically better. Usually the former begets the latter.
Smartphones existed before the iPhone, but you'd be hard pressed to call one of them a smartphone today. Personal music players existed before the iPod, but you'd be hard pressed to call them PMPs today. The change is what makes Apple successful.
Just making an exact copy of what is already there+iOS does not make a larger phone successful.
This is also my reason for disbelief in the Apple television. Unless Apple plans to completely ignore the cable and satellite providers and their archaic way of pushing us content, they are doomed to fail in all aspects of the television industry if they release an HDTV. Similarly, they are doomed (though as it is by their own choice, it doesn't cause any damage to them) to remain a "hobby" if they do not do the same for the Apple TV.
Your comparison of pre-iphone smartphones vs iphone and Phones 3.5" vs Larger screened phones, is apples to oranges. A very poor analogy. The weight you are giving to a 3.5 inch screen isn't logical.I sure as hell didn't get blown away by the original iphone because I found the screen to be the perfect size, not too small, not too big. That would have never even crossed my mind if asked.
While that's true, I don't think it applies as much here. There just isn't that much difference between a 3.5" and a 4" phone - certainly not enough to offer both if that's what you're getting at (I'm not sure what you're suggesting).
Where it DOES apply is the iPad market. I'm not sure that they expected the market to grow this large and this fast. At the time, a single iPad made sense. Now that the market has grown immensely and a large number of people are buying 7" tablets, I don't think it's unreasonable to offer both a 7" and 10" tablet.
I'm curious about the 1% number, though. It seemed more like Jobs was saying "EVEN IF we only got 1%, that's a lot of phones" because no one would have ever believed them if they said that target was 5 or 6%. I don't know, though.
I agree, keeping a 3.5 and adding a 4.3 or 4.5 would be far more logical.I dont see exactly why I can't just replace a word or two in one of your sentances and ask you why the same wouldn't be correct for smartphones -
"Now that the market has grown immensely and a large number of people are buying 4.5" Smartphones, I don't think it's unreasonable to offer both a 3.5" and 4.5" smartphone"
Do you think that sounds any less reasonable that way?
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Originally Posted by Jcoz
I agree, or if its a properly put together app. On my homebrew forums its a great size and far faster than any out in the regular www.
This forum is very 1.0-like but does your home-brewed forum have 100s of database tables with right, left joins and subqueries, dozens of include files, remote ajax calls to stock quote severs, RSS feeds, multiple languages, 1000s of concurrent users, embedded advertisements and pushing a continuous10Mb of bandwidth? Probably not, so it would be difficult to compare it to a commercial application on the level of this one, phpBB, VBulletin etc.
This forum is very 1.0-like but does your home-brewed forum have 100s of database tables with right, left joins and subqueries, dozens of include files, remote ajax calls to stock quote severs, RSS feeds, multiple languages, 1000s of concurrent users, embedded advertisements and pushing a continuous10Mb of bandwidth? Probably not, so it would be difficult to compare it to a commercial application on the level of this one, phpBB, VBulletin etc.
Fair point. its unfortunate though, because this forum and its patrons doesn't seem better off, IMO, for having those features. But thats the economics of it, so I understand.Most people would want a 4.5" screen iPhone. Apple's plan is too squeeze as much sales as possible without changing much e.g iPhone 4S. They could have changed to a larger screen.
The iPhone 4S sells well does not mean the users do not want a larger screen if available. So the next model will be 4" and they will see how well it sells. Then the next year they will go to 4.5" screen. But Apple is no longer leading the design and technology trend, even though the iPhones still sell very well.
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Originally Posted by Jcoz
Fair point. its unfortunate though, because this forum and its patrons doesn't seem better off, IMO, for having those features. But thats the economics of it, so I understand.One thing that this forum does do better than the others is that the url is not a searchable pattern for bots to attack so I would imagine that there is a lot less spam posts because it doesn't employ a universal script such as "showthread.php" which if you did a Google query it brings back 2,930,000,000 results. It might be a bit slower because of that though since it is using a string as part of the index rather than just a thread ID integer.
Edit: also it kind of looks like it is built in Rails which is not known for speed to begin with. Not sure maybe someone else knows?
One thing that this forum does do better than the others is that the url is not a searchable pattern for bots to attack so I would imagine that there is a lot less spam posts because it doesn't employ a universal script such as "showthread.php" which if you did a in Google query it brings back 2,930,000,000 results. It might be a bit slower because of that though since it is using a string as the index rather than a thread ID integer.
I frequent probably 4 different boards all of which are very different in content, target audience, size....etc. Absolutely none of them get spam posts. I only ever see that in comment sections of blogs and articles....Quote:
Originally Posted by peter236
Most people would want a 4.5" screen iPhone. Apple's plan is too squeeze as much sales as possible without changing much e.g iPhone 4S. They could have changed to a larger screen.
The iPhone 4S sells well does not mean the users do not want a larger screen if available. So the next model will be 4" and they will see how well it sells. Then the next year they will go to 4.5" screen. But Apple is no longer leading the design and technology trend, even though the iPhones still sell very well.
So a plastic Samsung phone is leading in design because it has a larger screen than the iPhone? I don't think so.
I have my iPhone 4S right here and there's enough real estate to hit nearly 4.5" diagonally. Apple could hit larger target audiences without making the thing physically larger.
I've read the arguments and then started analyzing my usage. How many times do I use the iPhone 1-handed? Not very often. I even dial numbers (when I'm not using Siri) with 2 hands. I don't even hold the phone to my head with one hand, preferring to use the speakers as I hold it while I'm walking. Or it lays flat in my car while Bluetooth takes the audio.
So for me, and likely many many others, using their iPhone is almost always a 2-handed operation. I hold it in one hand and interact with it with the other. If I'm using it this way 99% of the time, I would definitely appreciate a larger screen. I, too, am tired of squinting and scrolling to read the occasional web page.
I'd even offer that there is some room to make the device physically larger. Just a tad. 4.5 - 5" seems like a better target. The market will decide as Apple moves along.
And while they're at it, beef up the speakers.....
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Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
Your vendetta against me is blinding you to what I'm saying. You may want to look to that.
Vendetta? Nice try. I have a vendetta against extreme irrationality. That's all.
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When Apple releases a product, they release a product that can serve the purposes of 70-80 percent of the people for whom that product is being marketed. They don't care if some toes stick out or you can't pull the covers over your head, because the majority is covered, and that has been successful (and shown to ring true, if you look at marketshare) ever since the introduction of the iPod.
Yet you proclaim that a 4" screen wouldn't serve the purposes of the vast majority..based on zero evidence, just because you said so. My arguments towards your points are not and were never based on my own opinion, which is irrelevant, but market realties that you seem completely dismissive and out of touch with.
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No, but it will push things out of balance.
Again, cause you say so, right?
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And yet you're screaming for them to enter a market that has already been saturated with dozens of Android phones, their existence being nothing but a response to Apple taking over the rest of the entire market.
Screaming? You're the only one who's shrieking here. I'm arguing that a 4" phone won't change things drastically, where the hell have I demanded or advocated it? Stop misrepresenting things. Also, your implication is insanely laughable. You're stating that the 'market' is simply divided by screen sizes? Really? That by slightly changing the screen size, Apple will effectively be changing markets? Should Apple not have released an 11" MBA because there was already a market of 11" netbooks? Of course that argument is idiotic, just like yours. A MBA is not a netbook, and an iPhone is differentiated from an Android phone with more than just screen size. It shows how little you understand about Apple, or why people like Apple products, if you believe everyone will suddenly jump ship because of this one spec. Screen size has NEVER been the primary reason people choose to buy iPhones, yet you're stating that this is the sole factor that defines 'markets'. A 4" screen would not be a response to anything, but if they chose to go that route it would be a decision Apple has carefully thought out in terms of bettering its own product. You clearly have no understanding what a 'market' is. There is no 3.5" and 4.0" market. There are only products, and a 4" iPhone would still be an iPhone regardless.
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When you think of an actual response, let me know. I'd love to continue this discussion to improve my analogies.
An actual response to what? Your analogy? I gave you one, which is all the response you deserved. That uour analogy was idiotic, and I even took the time to explain why. What kind of response do you want, pray tell, to your 'a 4" iPhone will be a limousine" analogy? It was an analogy that showed how fundamentally flawed your understanding is, so I wonder why you chose to include it if you mock the fact that I responded to it.
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Right. Apple offers a screen size and everyone else offers the others. No one's forced to buy Apple products.
Your point? Again, you imply screen size is the main reason people choose iPhones. Again, ridiculous, and disconnected.
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Funny how three years ago it did. Funny how four years ago people thought the iPhone was too big. And funny how your statement is based on your viewpoint, not everyone's.
Unlike you, I don't pretend to speak for everyone, as you always do. And unlike you, I don't shove my opinion down other people's throats and proclaim it to be divine. Opinion should be based on verifiable facts and realities. Do you realize that an appstore wasn't even envisioned during the design of the iPhone? It's clear even Steve Jobs did not imagine what the iPhone would become, and the myriad applications that people would use it for. Yet you don't think that MAYBE all these expanded uses might warrant a slightly larger screen? That 3.5" should live on forever because it was the original size? I know dozens of people who own iPhones, of all ages and in all walks of life. From comments Ive heard from them, almost every single one has said they love the phone but think the screen is too tiny. I have never heard a comment that its too large. Sure, my evidence is anecdotal, but I can't imagine its too far removed from impressions elsewhere. I'm gonna take a wild-guess and say that from the amound of posts you have on this forum, you don't get out much. WHich is why you're simply echoeing the voices in your head, and basing your opinions on nothing but your own disconnected view, not on actually observing normal people using their phones and hearing their comments. So my view is colored by my own experience as well as what Ive seen from dozens of others, friends, family, colleages, acquaintances, etc using iPhones. Your viewpoint, is based on nothing but a rigid ideology that has no basis in reality, as evidenced by your insane analogies.
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Well, I already have a first-gen. It's sitting right here. I've always wanted to use it as a phone. It's not slow at all, and all my apps still work on it.
Another statement which shows how little bearing you have to a normal, average iPhone user. Or any smartphone user. My dad is the least technically inclined person I know, and all he used his 1st gen phone was for making calls, texting, and emails. Yet I replaced it for him last year because of his complaints about how slow it was. He ran no extra apps. Beyond that, I don't know a single person who still uses a 1st gen iPhone. The fact that you consider doing so, again, shows you're in a very extreme fringe, yet proclaim to speak for the majority of people and how Apple should accomodate those people. Nobody cares what apps you use. It's a fact that the majority of apps in the appstore are not compatible with the original iPhone anymore, and I don't recall seeing ANY of the big, high quality, well known apps being compatible recently- AT ALL. So you'll be cut off from the majority of the apps/features people use while using a 1st gen, which uses what is now ancient tech, and you're completely ok making that sacrifice, yet pretend to speak for the 'majority'. I find my iPhone 4 to be slow often times, as do others I know. Whats funnier is that you threaten 'never to buy another iPhone', as if Apple cares about customers like you who haven't purchased an iPhone in 5 years. Again, how the hell can you speak for what the majority want when you don't even use a semi-recent iPhone? I couldn't care less what you use, but continuing to make threats of not buying the next iPhone, and of speaking for iPhone users, are incredibly pathetic and empty in light of this.
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That's certainly the case.
Aside: deep red italic text should probably be the universal sign of bleeding sarcasm.
You can be sarcastic all you want, doesn't make my point invalid, and you're too cowardly to even address it. You don't currently use an iPhone, you plan on using a 1st gen in the future, so clearly whatever new innovations, features, hardware, and software Apple has introduced in their mobile line in the past few years means nothing to you. ie. if you had the slightest care for any of these you would have made the effort to get a phone within the last 3 generations. How does my statement contradict what you said? It's right there. You don't use, nor care to use anything that Apple has introduced in their iPhone line within the past few years.
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Funny. Because I thought the idea was bringing Android users over, because the only thing they care about is big screens. Apparently the perspective of these people, who have never used an iPhone, don't use one now, nor have cared enough to purchase one in the past four generations doesn't mean anything to anyone…
You're not making sense, then again you never do.
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… So Apple shouldn't be making a 4" phone to suit their "needs". Because they're ridiculous and irrational.
See the problem there?
No, I don't. Apple has not shown itself to be ridiculous and irrational. You have. Consistently. On many, many occasions. But carry on. You need to pad that post count somehow, and I guess the easiest way is to continue ranting about how you'll never buy the next Apple product, because of some horse-shit reasoning. Why don't you break down for us again why the next phone will never be called the iPhone 5, and how you'll be 'finished' with Apple if thats the case? Hilarious how often you threaten to stop being Apple's customer, when you can't be bothered to use their products anyway, and don't understand the 1st thing about them nor their users, nor human beings in general. Get out of your house, get some fresh air, and maybe you'll be able to claw your way out of xenophobic ideological hole you've dug yourself. Your basement isn't real life, stop making absolute statements proclaiming what people want and what Apple should do.
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Originally Posted by Jcoz
1. 4" Smartphones are not a market in and of themselves they are just one way of segmenting the smartphone market. 2. Apple would not be entering a saturated market, there is no iOS smartphone in that size. That device doesn't exist. Its not as if people are suggesting Apple make a low quality, low margin product here, like was being thrown about with netbooks. 3. The idea should NOT be bringing Android users over, not when there is so much more smartphone market as yet to be established. Its simply addressing another (huge) portion of the premium market in a field apple is a huge player in. When has apple ever NOT done this?You're making too much sense, I predict you will be responded to with some assinine analogies involving limousines, or maybe elephants.
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Originally Posted by Slurpy
You're making too much sense, I predict you will be responded to with some assinine analogies involving limousines, or maybe elephants.
Making too much sense on this forum is like... oh, never mind...