Teardown of Retina MacBook Pro finds soldered RAM, proprietary SSD

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  • Reply 101 of 194
    dcrdcr Posts: 7member


    From date of hardware purchase, not AppleCare purchase


     


    "Every Mac and Apple display comes with a one-year limited warranty and up to 90 days of complimentary telephone technical support. Extend your coverage to three years from your hardware product’s original purchase date with the AppleCare Protection Plan."


     


    http://www.apple.com/support/products/mac.html

  • Reply 102 of 194

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by BigBillyGoatGruff View Post


    I don't mind that the RAM is soldered and non-upgradable.  I don't mind that the SSD is proprietary.  But it really puts me out that the 256GB SSD is the only option on the base model.  Anyone know why that is?



     


     


    That way, if you need a normal sized drive, like many people will, you will buy a more expensive machine.  256 is too small for today's usage if you  want to keep things on the machine's drive without swapping in and out a lot with an external drive or iCloud.

  • Reply 103 of 194

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Haggar View Post


    I wonder how Apple technicians are reacting at the thought of repairing these new laptops.



     


    It will be easier.  Just replace the motherboard if there is any hardware problem in any of its components.  

  • Reply 104 of 194
    hmmhmm Posts: 3,405member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post





    My first thought was Apple should make it very, very clear it's not upgradable for the very reason you mention.



    It would be good if they made user serviceability concerns very clear in the tech specs pages and on the cto configuration steps. It's easy to assume these things can be upgraded due to precedence, so clarity would be a good thing.


     


     


    Quote:


    Originally Posted by MacBook Pro View Post





    The problem is that Apple Care only covers issues caused (during the performance of repairs) by Apple Authorized Service Providers. I see quite a few shops that aren't Apple Authorized Service Providers though which is unfortunate for the average consumer who may not know better. I should further add that Apple is not accepting applications for Apple Authorized Service Providers nor have they for some time. Essentially, Apple is cornering the market on Apple Authorized Service.

    I should further add that the Samsung SSD used in the MacBook Pro is proprietary although the controller is standard.

    The reduction in RAM prices from Apple is an excellent move. Thank you, Apple.


    This will suck more for people in countries or even counties that lack Apple Stores. I've always gone to authorized repair centers. You get better service, and you can direct questions to the repair techs.


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Cpsro View Post


    The 2013 Mac Pro will also have soldered RAM.



    You can't extrapolate things that far out.


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Quadra 610 View Post


    Apple now has the power to go proprietary, and consumers will back them all the way. 



    I wouldn't be sure about that. Apple has their flops too. My concern would be repair costs. We've all seen people mention the quality of their old macs that are still running. It annoys me that the trend is toward disposable technology as the things that can brick a  computer  keep increasing as do the costs of repair with integrated components.


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post





    The new Ivy Bridge ones should allow 32GB.


    The chipset allows it.


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jragosta View Post





    Ultimately, it comes down to how many people actually bother with upgrading their RAM. If the number is small enough, soldered RAM isn't a problem. If a significant number of people want to upgrade their RAM, there could be some backlash.

    However, given the modest price for the upgrade to 16 GB, I would simply get the higher RAM from the start and it should be sufficient for most people for the life of the computer. Heck, I'm currently still stuck at 3 GB and lots of people are using even less.


     


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by benanderson89 View Post


    32GB is what you'd expect in a fairly powerful server.


    Though, I can see 16GB as a good amount of RAM to have for professional use. Me in photoshop can easily gobble up the 10GB I have in my iMac within two hours.



    It doesn't matter what seems like a lot. Since it goes by a factor of 2, if you could benefit from more than 16GB (this is different from whether or not it's crucial) your next step is 32. Plenty of applications can gobble more than 10GB. It's just that you figure out how long you may be using this machine. If the available specs will become a strain within that time it's an issue. My bigger complaint is locking it to 1GB of vram. That same card often uses 2GB in cheaper computers, and since you mentioned adobe, they recommend 1GB in CS6 for the Mercury engine. If they recommend 2GB with a minimum of one with CS7, that will make this feel a little strained. It's just kind of a low number for a machine released in mid 2012.

  • Reply 105 of 194
    jlanddjlandd Posts: 873member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by JerrySwitched26 View Post


     


    8 Gigs of RAM is plenty for the vast majority of buyers, even those who do a whole lot more than email and 'web.  They can comfortably leave those apps open all the time, and can still have plenty of room left available for Photoshop and Word both.   


     


    People can use 2 gigs of ram with minimal hassle.  4 gigs is plenty for most people.  8 gigs is a lot for most people.  16 is crazy lots, except for a vanishingly small number of potential buyers.



    But we can't assume that 8 gigs on a 2012 Retina MBP with Mountain Lion will have the RAM headroom that a user with the same on a 2010 MPB with SL would be enjoying.  Could it make enough of a difference for someone who is used to working with RAM nearly maxed out?  We won't know for a few weeks.

  • Reply 106 of 194
    hirohiro Posts: 2,663member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by EauVive View Post



    As a former digital hardware engineer, I have a strong negative feeling about this. Soldered RAM means a a complex operation if just one circuit fails or the connexion on a single pin floats, etc., which happens sometimes with reflow soldering.

    Glued battery cells? Tell me that’s a nightmare! You guys will have to cuddle your battery because changing it will be rather expensive…

    In my opinion, this is an engineering prototype actually industrialized without any further refinements. Maybe they were constrained by time and had no opportunity to work out a cleaner design, but it looks half-finished. They could not afford a WWDC without a real announcement, so it seems Apple released this machine in emergency… Next iteration will be cleaner I hope.

    PS : Contrarily to what most people state here, I own a 2 GB model (late-2008 Unibody MacBook with upgradable HD, Ram and easy access battery), do some heavy development with it, and I never hit the point where the machine would go so sluggish it would be unusable…


     


    You need to think deeper and refresh yourself if you are a former hardware engineer rendering an opinion.  Your thought process is indicative of the lack of progress in design most of the electronics industry has seen over the last decade.


     


    Glued batteries are because the SINGLE largest cause of battery failures/overheats is fastener puncturing.  No fastener, no chance of puncturing. And with battery electronics that actually preserve battery performance for 4-6 years rather than the Dell throwaways I have to buy for the shop laptops every year the batteries last as long as the planned lifespan of the machine.  And not providing a reason to open up the enclosure reduces the possibility of ham-fisted "where's that last screw" problems followed by, "oh well, these keep it secure enough" and the ensuing fastener battery puncture months later.  It's happened.  More than once...


     


    Your comments on soldering RAM totally ignore modern IC robotic assembly techniques.  Your assessment was only a statistically significant problem when done by early robotics or human hands, even with alignment guides.  Production engineering has come a long way in the last 20 years, making previous assumptions obsolete.


     


    We finally have an engineering outlook that takes more into account than just the engineers hourly cost and bottom line cost of manufacturing into account.  Sure the results look alien to run-of-the-mill engineers, the results are coming from considering issues long left off the table either out of ignorance or lack of desire to increase the scope of the examination.  These incorrectly labeled "engineering prototype actually industrialized without any further refinements" artifacts which are the result of exactly the opposite, actually have a far higher ROI for the engineering and manufacturing process costs than the old fashioned process of limiting the design process by cost constraining it.  It's not surprising that an old school informed dismissal misses the point on all counts.

  • Reply 107 of 194
    hirohiro Posts: 2,663member

    dupe deleted -- I hate where the edit button is!!!!!
  • Reply 108 of 194
    hirohiro Posts: 2,663member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Haggar View Post


    I wonder how Apple technicians are reacting at the thought of repairing these new laptops.



     


    They are loving it if they work for Apple.  You either replace a drive, a motherboard or a battery.  So many fewer whacky things to go wrong.  


     


    If they don't work for Apple and are worried about not being able to charge those hours spent tracking down those whacky issues, then not so much.

  • Reply 109 of 194
    jragostajragosta Posts: 10,473member
    gazoobee wrote: »
    The truth is people don't really upgrade their RAM much anymore though.  While it used to be standard procedure to double the memory of a computer half-way through its life to give it a "new lease" sort of speak, this hardly ever happens anymore.  Most Macintosh desktops keep the same RAM for the life of the computer nowadays.  Laptop memory upgrades are even rarer.  

    Another thing people are forgetting is that no program on OS-X scan use more than 4GB of RAM and even then, only a very few do that.  So unless you are running two copies of Final Cut side by side or something similar, you won't actually need any more than 8GB because your computer will rarely if ever need it.  The retina displays might be the first computers that need more (I haven't used one yet so I don't know), but for the average user today, 4GB is overkill and 8GB is a huge luxury. 

    It actually goes beyond that. When VM has to swap an active app to disk, the wasted time is significant when you're using a 5400 or 7200 rpm drive. With SSD, the time spent is swapping to VM is greatly reduced, so the effect of swapping is less noticeable. Note how most people using the MBA brag about its responsiveness - even when using a 2 GB system.

    philgar wrote: »
    I doubt there are ANY cost savings by soldering the RAM directly onto the motherboard, however there are likely to be greater profits in doing this.  The cost savings (if anything) would be maybe $1 for both the connector, and extra premium for buying SODIMMS over DRAM modules...

    There are quite a few savings:

    1. Cost of separate daughter cards for RAM (either paid by Apple directly if they make them or indirectly if they pay someone else)
    2. Additional soldering (you have to solder the RAM to the daughter card and the socket to the motherboard
    3. Sockets with clips
    4. Extra space inside the computer (which means less room for battery)
    5. Cost of inserting the SO-DIMMs (soldering is probably done by machine)
    6. Extra quality control costs since SO-DIMMs are more likely to have problems due to insertion errors
    7. Extra cost to pay someone to do the extra soldering, extra daughter cards, etc
    8. Inventory cost for carrying all of the extra components
    9. Additional failures due to all the extra soldering
    10. Additional tech support costs from people whose SO-DIMM came loose in shipping
    And that's just off the top of my head. Unless you've been in manufacturing and extensively studied the Toyota Production System (or Lean Manufacturing), it's easy to underestimate the added cost of complexity.

    jlandd wrote: »
    But we can't assume that 8 gigs on a 2012 Retina MBP with Mountain Lion will have the RAM headroom that a user with the same on a 2010 MPB with SL would be enjoying.  Could it make enough of a difference for someone who is used to working with RAM nearly maxed out?  We won't know for a few weeks.

    There's no sign that it's going to be significantly different based on anything I've read.

    And the OS overhead is small enough that on an 8 GB systems, it's hardly going to be noticeable even if overhead were increased by 20% or so. Again, keep in mind that you're swapping to SSD rather than physical disk, so VM paging is not going to have anywhere near the penalty it has on previous (non-SSD) systems.
  • Reply 110 of 194
    hirohiro Posts: 2,663member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by benanderson89 View Post


    Cost: No RAM Slots, no moving parts needed to keep RAM in place, no extra bits around the RAM to keep it electrically insulated. Directly mounted on the Logic board means you eliminate a variety of extra bits needed for conventional, removable RAM.


    Reliability: As above; they are not in a slot with small clips keeping them in place. They may break and the RAM my slip just ever so slightly causing system failure (I've had that happen before). With regards to QC, they'll do what they do with flat panel displays, test them before putting them in and then test the final product.


    Performance: Since tracks etched onto a motherboard with regards to RAM are still metal then you are indeed correct in saying that there will be no performance gain.


    Compact Design: The third reason, actually. ;)



    The bold is incorrect.  Performance also includes power performance and soldering is much better, although at thresholds many engineers have considered ignorable for decades.  Just look up a few posts and I dispel that.

  • Reply 111 of 194
    jragostajragosta Posts: 10,473member
    hiro wrote: »
    They are loving it if they work for Apple.  You either replace a drive, a motherboard or a battery.  So many fewer whacky things to go wrong.  

    If they don't work for Apple and are worried about not being able to charge those hours spent tracking down those whacky issues, then not so much.

    As a consumer, though, I much prefer a system with fewer points of failure. I'd rather have a system with 1 chance in 1000 of failing rather than one with 1 chance in 100 of failing - even if it costs more to repair the former (especially since I always recommend AppleCare for laptops, anyway).
  • Reply 112 of 194
    cpsrocpsro Posts: 3,192member


    640KB ought to be enough for anyone.

  • Reply 113 of 194
    goodgriefgoodgrief Posts: 137member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by liney View Post


    "RAM is soldered onto the logic board and cannot be upgraded, and that the proprietary solid-state drive memory was supplied by Samsung."


     


    RAM = memory


    drive = storage



    Not sure what you're getting at there, but it <looks> like you're trying to correct a mistake that isn't there and in the process making assertions that aren't true. The quote you appear to be correcting is, in fact, entirely accurate.


     


    Short version:


        SSD's <are> comprised of memory modules (among other things).


     


    Slightly longer, somewhat pedantic version:


        "RAM" is what we generally use to describe volatile primary memory (although conventional DRAM used in most computers isn't truly "random access memory", but it's close enough ;)). For casual purposes, we often use RAM and memory interchangeably, and while RAM is memory, not all memory is not RAM.


     


        Strictly speaking, the "drive" is not a memory device, the drive is the mechanism that facilitates reading from or writing to memory (typically non-volatile secondary memory used for short to medium term data storage). In a "hard" or "floppy" disk drive (a good example for the differentiation between drive and storage medium), the medium is an electromagnetic disk. For SSD's the medium is typically flash memory modules (although some solid state drives were actually built using off the shelf 'RAM' modules).

  • Reply 114 of 194
    v5vv5v Posts: 1,357member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by EauVive View Post



    I run Mail, Safari, Xcode, Terminal, Text Wrangler, Pages and various other utilities on a daily basis. Never needed more than the original 2 GB.


     


    That's great.  Of course, the key word there is UTILITIES.  Other people do work that requires apps that are somewhat more demanding in terms of RAM requirements, yes?  Like, audio post for a video project.  Try running Pro Tools alongside a big Final Cut session then popping into Photoshop or Illustrator for a quick tweak on a machine with 2GB.  If you had to do that every day I'm sure you would then feel the need for more RAM.


     


    The fact that you are among the lucky group who can work effectively with a small amount of RAM is not necessarily an argument against eliminating user-upgradability.

  • Reply 115 of 194
    junkyard dawgjunkyard dawg Posts: 2,801member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by EauVive View Post



    I run Mail, Safari, Xcode, Terminal, Text Wrangler, Pages and various other utilities on a daily basis. Never needed more than the original 2 GB.

    I remember the old days when I was programming on Atari ST. A guy named Dominique Laurent had programmed a nice word processing application called "Le Rédacteur" : it was 100 % assembly… 256 KB were more than sufficient…


     


    2GB is plenty for users who only work with text and use Safari.  Usually the sorts of consumers who use their laptop for text and web browsing don't spend $2500 on their laptop.

  • Reply 116 of 194
    stompystompy Posts: 408member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Hiro View Post


     


    What, you don't need 30 days of standby time you say?  Well that 30 days also means that over a weekend you only deplete ~8% battery capacity from end of work Friday to starting Monday, compared to loosing ~36% with a standard system. What can you do with that extra ~28%.  Well, you get an extra two hours runtime on a MBP...


     


    ...  The easy retort of plug it in at home means either buying another power supply offsetting some of the RAM cost difference between 8 and 16GB, or do some additional lugging. ...



     


    You make a good point about small savings adding up. It occurs to me that longer standby time equals fewer charge cycles, extending the usable lifetime of the batteries.


     


    I actually don't mind the soldered RAM (too much), but the glued in batteries? I'd like to hear the real story behind that decision.

  • Reply 117 of 194
    v5vv5v Posts: 1,357member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post


     


    The truth is people don't really upgrade their RAM much anymore though.  While it used to be standard procedure to double the memory of a computer half-way through its life to give it a "new lease" sort of speak, this hardly ever happens anymore.



     


    According to whom?  I'm not trying to start an argument and I'm not saying you're wrong, but I would like to know how you came to that conclusion.  Why do you believe mid-life RAM upgrades happen any less frequently now than they did a few years ago?

  • Reply 118 of 194


    In a very near future, RAM will not be as important as it used to be. Of course this is a Pro machine, and pro apps do better with more RAM. But as developers become better and technologies become better integrated, as well as with the help of SSD, software will require less RAM to do the same work. And disk swapping (when ram is full and the software uses memory on the disk) on an SSD is almost seamless, and will become more seamless as they get speedier. Who know, RAM may as well disappear in a few years.

  • Reply 119 of 194
    jlanddjlandd Posts: 873member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by v5v View Post


     


    That's great.  Of course, the key word there is UTILITIES.  Other people do work that requires apps that are somewhat more demanding in terms of RAM requirements, yes?  Like, audio post for a video project.  Try running Pro Tools alongside a big Final Cut session then popping into Photoshop or Illustrator for a quick tweak on a machine with 2GB.  If you had to do that every day I'm sure you would then feel the need for more RAM.


     


    The fact that you are among the lucky group who can work effectively with a small amount of RAM is not necessarily an argument against eliminating user-upgradability.



    Also there are PS users who never edit more than one 25 meg image at a time, but there are those who need ten 200 meg images loaded together and many who spend all day working with psd files of over a gig.  So right tool for the right job and all that, but the RMBP isn't a machine to grow with, which is something we're all used to.  Gotta pop for the maxed out model if you think you'll be getting there eventually.

  • Reply 120 of 194
    junkyard dawgjunkyard dawg Posts: 2,801member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by JerrySwitched26 View Post


     


    8 Gigs of RAM is plenty for the vast majority of buyers, even those who do a whole lot more than email and 'web.  They can comfortably leave those apps open all the time, and can still have plenty of room left available for Photoshop and Word both.   


     


    People can use 2 gigs of ram with minimal hassle.  4 gigs is plenty for most people.  8 gigs is a lot for most people.  16 is crazy lots, except for a vanishingly small number of potential buyers.



    I mostly agree with your breakdown of RAM needs, but this is for today.  What about in three years?  Will Mountain Lion's successor do fine with 8 GB RAM?  The point is, if you're buying a computer without upgradable RAM, you're forced to buy enough RAM for 3-4 years from now, not for today.  Or you can be an obedient Apple consumer and dispose your computer in two years to buy another one.  


     


    As for 2 GB RAM being sufficient for most people - open Safari, load a bunch of tabs, then open a few documents in Word and Excel, and you'll soon be seeing the beach-ball.  4 GB is really the minimum for a pleasant OS X experience.  8 GB is fine unless you're into editing photos or video, then you'll be wishing you had 12 or maybe 16 if you're a multi-tasker.  Five years from now (about the end of the Retina MBP lifespan), I'd wager that 8 GB will the the minimum RAM needed for a pleasant OS X experience for those doing anything beyond email and twitter.

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