Reliability: Cut out socket-related failure modes (admittedly small factor, but...) You test memory before assembly, don't you?
I would check it before soldering, and after soldering, as this processing step can cause failures (soldering might damage the ram chips if they were 'on the edge of being good' for instance, as well as the possibility of a bad solder)
I run Mail, Safari, Xcode, Terminal, Text Wrangler, Pages and various other utilities on a daily basis. Never needed more than the original 2 GB. I remember the old days when I was programming on Atari ST. A guy named Dominique Laurent had programmed a nice word processing application called "Le Rédacteur" : it was 100 % assembly… 256 KB were more than sufficient…
because instead of paying someone to stick RAM in there and having a supply line for RAM you let your motherboard maker take care of it
We've already established Apple isn't paying a whole lot of money for assembly workers to stick anything in anything. They're in China for a reason. And if it did come down to cost, personally I'd gladly pay an extra $1 or $2 if I could have socketed RAM.
I wonder how Apple technicians are reacting at the thought of repairing these new laptops.
My guess is they are not going to be repairing/replacing components like the battery, LCD Screen, Ram, Keyboard, Trackpad, or SDD.
It's probably going to be broken down into 3 components: screen assembly, main logic board (CPU+GPU+RAM+SDD...), and case assembly (metal case, keyboard/trackpad, batteries, other attached components). That would be the simplest and easiest way to train technicians and stock parts. Each part is probably $500+. We'll see what iFixit sells for replacement parts over the next few weeks, it's probably going to be at a similar granularity.
Ouch, soldered ram. I much prefer the 4 slots/32GB in my asus bricktop.
The truth is people don't really upgrade their RAM much anymore though. While it used to be standard procedure to double the memory of a computer half-way through its life to give it a "new lease" sort of speak, this hardly ever happens anymore. Most Macintosh desktops keep the same RAM for the life of the computer nowadays. Laptop memory upgrades are even rarer.
Another thing people are forgetting is that no program on OS-X scan use more than 4GB of RAM and even then, only a very few do that. So unless you are running two copies of Final Cut side by side or something similar, you won't actually need any more than 8GB because your computer will rarely if ever need it. The retina displays might be the first computers that need more (I haven't used one yet so I don't know), but for the average user today, 4GB is overkill and 8GB is a huge luxury.
It looks like the designer did not regard the case as something that "covers" the rest, but as an integrated part of a whole. A break with tradition but also an insight conceptually.
Obviously Apple doesn't want the consumer improving or tampering with its decision so they went to the trouble and extra cost of soldering the RAM and proprietary SSD. Look forward in the near future to a completely sealed Unibody design which doesn't even give the consumeer the ability to see whats inside the unit as it will be sealed.
Obviously Apple doesn't want the consumer improving or tampering with its decision so they went to the trouble and extra cost of soldering the RAM....
It's the other way around. Soldering the RAM on the motherboard, rather than on SO-DIMMs, is cheaper because there are fewer parts and fewer manufacturing steps.
It's the other way around. Soldering the RAM on the motherboard, rather than on SO-DIMMs, is cheaper because there are fewer parts and fewer manufacturing steps.
Yes. The Intel Ultrabook manufacturers have been having trouble matching price on the Macbook Air. It looks like Apple intends to extend their difficulties.
They do, more than a millimeter overall and despite a previous posters statement otherwise a soldered connection does perform better. Less voltage is required to satisfy signal to noise ratios meaning incrementally less battery drain. How else does anyone think Apple got a 30 day standby when the best you can get with plug-in RAM is a week? That difference will almost be entirely in the seemingly infinitesimal lowering of the electrical requirements for keeping RAM alive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thesource291
Its certainly in line with the direction Apple wants to take all their products. Control the OS experience and now the further control of the hardware experience. It is certainly becoming more of an "appliance". In no way is it a bad experience, but its definitely a little disappointing to some, like myself. I own multiple Mac products and consider them great machines. Without exception I have performed ram and hard drive upgrades around the 3rd year to give each box a speed bump and extend its life. Too date this has been a pretty successful experience, especially with SSD's coming to market. This appears to no longer be possible, though who knows what Apple may offer as a service down the road. What it does do is sway most people, like me, to future proof my purchase upfront through Apple, instead of a third party 3 years down the road. Smart business move by Apple I imagine... Who knows what 3 years down the road will look like?? Obviously the market is changing, with Apple setting the direction and "tinkering" seems to be in the rear view mirror ;-). Hopefully they leave the door open with the Mac Pro's...but I doubt it.
This is going to be the common thread of the long term discussion -- Apple playing the Nanny Supplier role. Unfortunately, it is an opinion solidly devoid of understanding the engineering tradeoffs made. If you want upgradeability, you give up efficiency. It may be only be microvolts paid to use pin sockets, but added up over an entire month soldering the RAM gives more than 4x the standby performance. And that is with the advertised power-napping.
What, you don't need 30 days of standby time you say? Well that 30 days also means that over a weekend you only deplete ~8% battery capacity from end of work Friday to starting Monday, compared to loosing ~36% with a standard system. What can you do with that extra ~28%. Well, you get an extra two hours runtime on a MBP, or an extra hour of the max 4 on a luggable fully specced Windows laptop. That's a difference between making to lunch or not without hitting the power cord.
So do I want upgradeable RAM? Or do I don't want to have to worry about power cords for Monday meetings, classes or laboratories? The easy retort of plug it in at home means either buying another power supply offsetting some of the RAM cost difference between 8 and 16GB, or do some additional lugging. Sure those are possible, but not having to remember either of them can be brilliant.
Cost: will be lower because there are fewer parts and fewer assembly steps.
Reliability: One QCs memory chips before soldering them to the motherboard.
Performance: Future JEDEC specs will support higher bandwidth and lower latency ONLY for directly soldered RAM.
Compact design: At least one out of four benefits was obvious.
I doubt there are ANY cost savings by soldering the RAM directly onto the motherboard, however there are likely to be greater profits in doing this. The cost savings (if anything) would be maybe $1 for both the connector, and extra premium for buying SODIMMS over DRAM modules... This gets offset by two factors:
1. The need for separate assembly lines for 8GB and 16 GB boards. The additional part numbers etc
2. Repairability... DRAM chips can, and DO go bad over time, and more importantly solder joints fail over time (just ask those of us unfortunate enough to have bought G3 or G4 ibooks). If the RAM can easily be swapped out, a technician can quickly determine if this is the problem. This saves defective boards in the factory (although there it's "relatively" cheap to desolder and replace a bad DRAM chip), but more importantly it causes savings on warranty repairs (lets face it, you need to buy applecare if you want a mac to last more than a year... my current macbook got repaired about 5 times under warranty, and currently has a battery that's rapidly increasing in physical size so that machine can't sit down level) because a technician at the apple store can quickly check the ram.. Lets say only 1% of all manufactured machines have a fault that can be repaired by replacing a DRAM chip. The extra cost of fixing the broken logic board (over replacing a DRAM chip) is likely well over $100 (in fact, if the machine was out of warranty, I can assure you the cost apple would charge us would be well over $1000). This extra cost later on means each machine costs more than $1 more than before, offsetting manufacturing benefits.
However, apple can make a larger profit by integrating everything. Apple easily charges twice the going price for DRAM, so there's that, plus now users are forced to upgrade their entire machine because they don't have enough RAM (OSX is a ram hog, my macbook had 3GB of RAM, and is always running out while running basic tasks like a web browser (with many tabs open), mail, a terminal window (with multiple tabs), adium, preview, itunes etc open, don't get me started if I launch office).
I think in the long run, this will bite apple in the butt, as people get burned from this experience years later. I likely will be in the market for a new mac in the next year (my macbook is limping along), and although I love some of the new pros specs, I can't justify the current price (I'd likely be waiting a year anyhow as I'd love a haswell machine), and the lack of user serviceable hardware just increases the price by an extra $300 or more (depending on the size SSD I think I'd need). That works out to about $1000 per year of owning the computer, because once applecare is up, the machine's useful life could end any day. Definitely not in that market.
I don't know what I'll do for my computing needs... for now my ipad is holding me over... maybe i'll just switch entirely to windows/linux, guess it depends on what windows 8 brings us, but it looks like apple hardware lacks the cool factors it used to have (mac laptops used to be some of the best machines for sericeability, the macbook made it incredibly easy to replace the HDD and ram).
Apple's surge to the top of the stock market valuations has happened because they were able to correctly predict that customers could be lured into replacing their electronics much more frequently than in the past.
We are not in the post-PC era; we are in the disposable PC era.
Computer and electronics manufacturers have completely abandoned the idea of making quality, long lasting products with big price tags and moved to making gadgets with smaller price tags that have to be replaced frequently
Not that many years ago people bought tower computers that would last 6 years and then be re-sold to someone with lesser needs. They attached those towers to third party displays that were expected to last 10 years or more.
Then came the widespread adoption of the notebook computer and all-in-one desktop. Upgrades were crippled forcing users to upgrade more frequently. Displays were built-in so users couldn't buy them from third parties and re-use them with their next computer.
Now we have the iPad. After two years Apple stops supporting it with OS upgrades. Within three years developers stop making compatible apps and the device has to be replaced.
The truth is people don't really upgrade their RAM much anymore though. While it used to be standard procedure to double the memory of a computer half-way through its life to give it a "new lease" sort of speak, this hardly ever happens anymore. Most Macintosh desktops keep the same RAM for the life of the computer nowadays. Laptop memory upgrades are even rarer.
Another thing people are forgetting is that no program on OS-X scan use more than 4GB of RAM and even then, only a very few do that. So unless you are running two copies of Final Cut side by side or something similar, you won't actually need any more than 8GB because your computer will rarely if ever need it. The retina displays might be the first computers that need more (I haven't used one yet so I don't know), but for the average user today, 4GB is overkill and 8GB is a huge luxury.
I agree, 32GB is overkill (ridiculous), but I do at times run multiple VMs and it's nice to give each of them 8GB or more.
4GB should be the minimum now days, you know, for average users. This machine is not for "average users" though, is it?
Cost : Why would it be lower ? Support/replacement is more expensive
Reliability : Maybe, because you won't have badly seated ram, but wat happens when at QC you find a bad memory chip....
Performance : No difference between soldered/non-soldered
Compact design : The only plausible reasong in my opinion.
Cost: No RAM Slots, no moving parts needed to keep RAM in place, no extra bits around the RAM to keep it electrically insulated. Directly mounted on the Logic board means you eliminate a variety of extra bits needed for conventional, removable RAM.
Reliability: As above; they are not in a slot with small clips keeping them in place. They may break and the RAM my slip just ever so slightly causing system failure (I've had that happen before). With regards to QC, they'll do what they do with flat panel displays, test them before putting them in and then test the final product.
Performance: Since tracks etched onto a motherboard with regards to RAM are still metal then you are indeed correct in saying that there will be no performance gain.
I agree, 32GB is overkill (ridiculous), but I do at times run multiple VMs and it's nice to give each of them 8GB or more.
4GB should be the minimum now days, you know, for average users. This machine is not for "average users" though, is it?
32GB is what you'd expect in a fairly powerful server.
Though, I can see 16GB as a good amount of RAM to have for professional use. Me in photoshop can easily gobble up the 10GB I have in my iMac within two hours.
So the low end Retina MBP is actually $2400 unless you only need the 8GB for email and internet stuff.
A $2000+ laptop without upgradable RAM? A sh!t ton of bullsh!t!
8 Gigs of RAM is plenty for the vast majority of buyers, even those who do a whole lot more than email and 'web. They can comfortably leave those apps open all the time, and can still have plenty of room left available for Photoshop and Word both.
People can use 2 gigs of ram with minimal hassle. 4 gigs is plenty for most people. 8 gigs is a lot for most people. 16 is crazy lots, except for a vanishingly small number of potential buyers.
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by steveH
Reliability: Cut out socket-related failure modes (admittedly small factor, but...) You test memory before assembly, don't you?
I would check it before soldering, and after soldering, as this processing step can cause failures (soldering might damage the ram chips if they were 'on the edge of being good' for instance, as well as the possibility of a bad solder)
I remember the old days when I was programming on Atari ST. A guy named Dominique Laurent had programmed a nice word processing application called "Le Rédacteur" : it was 100 % assembly… 256 KB were more than sufficient…
Quote:
Originally Posted by al_bundy
because instead of paying someone to stick RAM in there and having a supply line for RAM you let your motherboard maker take care of it
We've already established Apple isn't paying a whole lot of money for assembly workers to stick anything in anything. They're in China for a reason. And if it did come down to cost, personally I'd gladly pay an extra $1 or $2 if I could have socketed RAM.
It was given to man by the gods on Mt. Cupertino.
You Can Buy Your Own Apple Store For Only $38.5k
Apple Store (Copy) Fixture Liquidation Sale
why is anyone surprised? It is like a Giant iPad, and architecture is pretty much the same.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haggar
I wonder how Apple technicians are reacting at the thought of repairing these new laptops.
My guess is they are not going to be repairing/replacing components like the battery, LCD Screen, Ram, Keyboard, Trackpad, or SDD.
It's probably going to be broken down into 3 components: screen assembly, main logic board (CPU+GPU+RAM+SDD...), and case assembly (metal case, keyboard/trackpad, batteries, other attached components). That would be the simplest and easiest way to train technicians and stock parts. Each part is probably $500+. We'll see what iFixit sells for replacement parts over the next few weeks, it's probably going to be at a similar granularity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo42
Ouch, soldered ram. I much prefer the 4 slots/32GB in my asus bricktop.
The truth is people don't really upgrade their RAM much anymore though. While it used to be standard procedure to double the memory of a computer half-way through its life to give it a "new lease" sort of speak, this hardly ever happens anymore. Most Macintosh desktops keep the same RAM for the life of the computer nowadays. Laptop memory upgrades are even rarer.
Another thing people are forgetting is that no program on OS-X scan use more than 4GB of RAM and even then, only a very few do that. So unless you are running two copies of Final Cut side by side or something similar, you won't actually need any more than 8GB because your computer will rarely if ever need it. The retina displays might be the first computers that need more (I haven't used one yet so I don't know), but for the average user today, 4GB is overkill and 8GB is a huge luxury.
It looks like the designer did not regard the case as something that "covers" the rest, but as an integrated part of a whole. A break with tradition but also an insight conceptually.
Obviously Apple doesn't want the consumer improving or tampering with its decision so they went to the trouble and extra cost of soldering the RAM and proprietary SSD. Look forward in the near future to a completely sealed Unibody design which doesn't even give the consumeer the ability to see whats inside the unit as it will be sealed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BUSHMAN4
Obviously Apple doesn't want the consumer improving or tampering with its decision so they went to the trouble and extra cost of soldering the RAM....
It's the other way around. Soldering the RAM on the motherboard, rather than on SO-DIMMs, is cheaper because there are fewer parts and fewer manufacturing steps.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcarling
It's the other way around. Soldering the RAM on the motherboard, rather than on SO-DIMMs, is cheaper because there are fewer parts and fewer manufacturing steps.
Yes. The Intel Ultrabook manufacturers have been having trouble matching price on the Macbook Air. It looks like Apple intends to extend their difficulties.
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna
Yep. The brackets and such add bulk.
They do, more than a millimeter overall and despite a previous posters statement otherwise a soldered connection does perform better. Less voltage is required to satisfy signal to noise ratios meaning incrementally less battery drain. How else does anyone think Apple got a 30 day standby when the best you can get with plug-in RAM is a week? That difference will almost be entirely in the seemingly infinitesimal lowering of the electrical requirements for keeping RAM alive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thesource291
Its certainly in line with the direction Apple wants to take all their products. Control the OS experience and now the further control of the hardware experience. It is certainly becoming more of an "appliance". In no way is it a bad experience, but its definitely a little disappointing to some, like myself. I own multiple Mac products and consider them great machines. Without exception I have performed ram and hard drive upgrades around the 3rd year to give each box a speed bump and extend its life. Too date this has been a pretty successful experience, especially with SSD's coming to market. This appears to no longer be possible, though who knows what Apple may offer as a service down the road. What it does do is sway most people, like me, to future proof my purchase upfront through Apple, instead of a third party 3 years down the road. Smart business move by Apple I imagine... Who knows what 3 years down the road will look like?? Obviously the market is changing, with Apple setting the direction and "tinkering" seems to be in the rear view mirror ;-). Hopefully they leave the door open with the Mac Pro's...but I doubt it.
This is going to be the common thread of the long term discussion -- Apple playing the Nanny Supplier role. Unfortunately, it is an opinion solidly devoid of understanding the engineering tradeoffs made. If you want upgradeability, you give up efficiency. It may be only be microvolts paid to use pin sockets, but added up over an entire month soldering the RAM gives more than 4x the standby performance. And that is with the advertised power-napping.
What, you don't need 30 days of standby time you say? Well that 30 days also means that over a weekend you only deplete ~8% battery capacity from end of work Friday to starting Monday, compared to loosing ~36% with a standard system. What can you do with that extra ~28%. Well, you get an extra two hours runtime on a MBP, or an extra hour of the max 4 on a luggable fully specced Windows laptop. That's a difference between making to lunch or not without hitting the power cord.
So do I want upgradeable RAM? Or do I don't want to have to worry about power cords for Monday meetings, classes or laboratories? The easy retort of plug it in at home means either buying another power supply offsetting some of the RAM cost difference between 8 and 16GB, or do some additional lugging. Sure those are possible, but not having to remember either of them can be brilliant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcarling
Cost: will be lower because there are fewer parts and fewer assembly steps.
Reliability: One QCs memory chips before soldering them to the motherboard.
Performance: Future JEDEC specs will support higher bandwidth and lower latency ONLY for directly soldered RAM.
Compact design: At least one out of four benefits was obvious.
I doubt there are ANY cost savings by soldering the RAM directly onto the motherboard, however there are likely to be greater profits in doing this. The cost savings (if anything) would be maybe $1 for both the connector, and extra premium for buying SODIMMS over DRAM modules... This gets offset by two factors:
1. The need for separate assembly lines for 8GB and 16 GB boards. The additional part numbers etc
2. Repairability... DRAM chips can, and DO go bad over time, and more importantly solder joints fail over time (just ask those of us unfortunate enough to have bought G3 or G4 ibooks). If the RAM can easily be swapped out, a technician can quickly determine if this is the problem. This saves defective boards in the factory (although there it's "relatively" cheap to desolder and replace a bad DRAM chip), but more importantly it causes savings on warranty repairs (lets face it, you need to buy applecare if you want a mac to last more than a year... my current macbook got repaired about 5 times under warranty, and currently has a battery that's rapidly increasing in physical size so that machine can't sit down level) because a technician at the apple store can quickly check the ram.. Lets say only 1% of all manufactured machines have a fault that can be repaired by replacing a DRAM chip. The extra cost of fixing the broken logic board (over replacing a DRAM chip) is likely well over $100 (in fact, if the machine was out of warranty, I can assure you the cost apple would charge us would be well over $1000). This extra cost later on means each machine costs more than $1 more than before, offsetting manufacturing benefits.
However, apple can make a larger profit by integrating everything. Apple easily charges twice the going price for DRAM, so there's that, plus now users are forced to upgrade their entire machine because they don't have enough RAM (OSX is a ram hog, my macbook had 3GB of RAM, and is always running out while running basic tasks like a web browser (with many tabs open), mail, a terminal window (with multiple tabs), adium, preview, itunes etc open, don't get me started if I launch office).
I think in the long run, this will bite apple in the butt, as people get burned from this experience years later. I likely will be in the market for a new mac in the next year (my macbook is limping along), and although I love some of the new pros specs, I can't justify the current price (I'd likely be waiting a year anyhow as I'd love a haswell machine), and the lack of user serviceable hardware just increases the price by an extra $300 or more (depending on the size SSD I think I'd need). That works out to about $1000 per year of owning the computer, because once applecare is up, the machine's useful life could end any day. Definitely not in that market.
I don't know what I'll do for my computing needs... for now my ipad is holding me over... maybe i'll just switch entirely to windows/linux, guess it depends on what windows 8 brings us, but it looks like apple hardware lacks the cool factors it used to have (mac laptops used to be some of the best machines for sericeability, the macbook made it incredibly easy to replace the HDD and ram).
Phil
Apple's surge to the top of the stock market valuations has happened because they were able to correctly predict that customers could be lured into replacing their electronics much more frequently than in the past.
We are not in the post-PC era; we are in the disposable PC era.
Computer and electronics manufacturers have completely abandoned the idea of making quality, long lasting products with big price tags and moved to making gadgets with smaller price tags that have to be replaced frequently
Not that many years ago people bought tower computers that would last 6 years and then be re-sold to someone with lesser needs. They attached those towers to third party displays that were expected to last 10 years or more.
Then came the widespread adoption of the notebook computer and all-in-one desktop. Upgrades were crippled forcing users to upgrade more frequently. Displays were built-in so users couldn't buy them from third parties and re-use them with their next computer.
Now we have the iPad. After two years Apple stops supporting it with OS upgrades. Within three years developers stop making compatible apps and the device has to be replaced.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee
The truth is people don't really upgrade their RAM much anymore though. While it used to be standard procedure to double the memory of a computer half-way through its life to give it a "new lease" sort of speak, this hardly ever happens anymore. Most Macintosh desktops keep the same RAM for the life of the computer nowadays. Laptop memory upgrades are even rarer.
Another thing people are forgetting is that no program on OS-X scan use more than 4GB of RAM and even then, only a very few do that. So unless you are running two copies of Final Cut side by side or something similar, you won't actually need any more than 8GB because your computer will rarely if ever need it. The retina displays might be the first computers that need more (I haven't used one yet so I don't know), but for the average user today, 4GB is overkill and 8GB is a huge luxury.
I agree, 32GB is overkill (ridiculous), but I do at times run multiple VMs and it's nice to give each of them 8GB or more.
4GB should be the minimum now days, you know, for average users. This machine is not for "average users" though, is it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by mausz
Cost : Why would it be lower ? Support/replacement is more expensive
Reliability : Maybe, because you won't have badly seated ram, but wat happens when at QC you find a bad memory chip....
Performance : No difference between soldered/non-soldered
Compact design : The only plausible reasong in my opinion.
Cost: No RAM Slots, no moving parts needed to keep RAM in place, no extra bits around the RAM to keep it electrically insulated. Directly mounted on the Logic board means you eliminate a variety of extra bits needed for conventional, removable RAM.
Reliability: As above; they are not in a slot with small clips keeping them in place. They may break and the RAM my slip just ever so slightly causing system failure (I've had that happen before). With regards to QC, they'll do what they do with flat panel displays, test them before putting them in and then test the final product.
Performance: Since tracks etched onto a motherboard with regards to RAM are still metal then you are indeed correct in saying that there will be no performance gain.
Compact Design: The third reason, actually.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo42
I agree, 32GB is overkill (ridiculous), but I do at times run multiple VMs and it's nice to give each of them 8GB or more.
4GB should be the minimum now days, you know, for average users. This machine is not for "average users" though, is it?
32GB is what you'd expect in a fairly powerful server.
Though, I can see 16GB as a good amount of RAM to have for professional use. Me in photoshop can easily gobble up the 10GB I have in my iMac within two hours.
Quote:
Originally Posted by philgar
The need for separate assembly lines for 8GB and 16 GB boards.
That's not how it works. They are assembled on the same line. The switch between 8GB and 16GB is done at a work shift change.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Junkyard Dawg
So the low end Retina MBP is actually $2400 unless you only need the 8GB for email and internet stuff.
A $2000+ laptop without upgradable RAM? A sh!t ton of bullsh!t!
8 Gigs of RAM is plenty for the vast majority of buyers, even those who do a whole lot more than email and 'web. They can comfortably leave those apps open all the time, and can still have plenty of room left available for Photoshop and Word both.
People can use 2 gigs of ram with minimal hassle. 4 gigs is plenty for most people. 8 gigs is a lot for most people. 16 is crazy lots, except for a vanishingly small number of potential buyers.