I have a 2009 MacBook Pro and even though the RAM is easily upgradeable, I'm still using just 2GB after all these years. I don't find it a problem at all running Snow Leopard and the applications I use. I believe that in order for Apple to make this new MacBook Pro as thin as it is, there is going to be a tradeoff of component accessability and as long as I know it beforehand, I'll buy a model with more RAM and hope I can get four years comfortable use out of it. I'm not mourning the loss of upgradeable RAM at all but then again I'm not a power user. I don't know if I'm the typical user or not but I don't think most consumers will bother to upgrade RAM at all. I make sure I always get AppleCare so I'm also not concerned about user-friendly replacement parts. Soldered RAM will not stop me from buying an Apple MacBook Pro.
Are you running 64 bit kernel? On my macs 64 bit kernel is using anywhere from 450 to 1.5 GB. On 17'' MBP it's 450 MB on iMac 762 MB and on Mac Pro 1.5 GB right after boot.
Ultimately, it comes down to how many people actually bother with upgrading their RAM. If the number is small enough, soldered RAM isn't a problem. If a significant number of people want to upgrade their RAM, there could be some backlash.
However, given the modest price for the upgrade to 16 GB, I would simply get the higher RAM from the start and it should be sufficient for most people for the life of the computer. Heck, I'm currently still stuck at 3 GB and lots of people are using even less.
3 GB RAM isn't nearly enough for serious work. On a Mini with 3 GB RAM I can't even use Safari and Lightroom at the same time.
8GB standard RAM isn't bad for the $2200 MacBook, but it's pathetic on the $2800 model given that it cannot be upgraded. Apple's pulling a fast one on consumers here, building in obsolescence far beyond what most computer makers do. It's disgusting.
I'll take more HD bays and RAM slots over thinness, but if a person want's portability they will prefer the reverse. Apple is stupid to convert their whole laptop line to MacBook Air designs, which is what it looks like they're about to do. It's like they don't want professionals using their gear anymore.
As a former digital hardware engineer, I have a strong negative feeling about this. Soldered RAM means a a complex operation if just one circuit fails or the connexion on a single pin floats, etc., which happens sometimes with reflow soldering.
Glued battery cells? Tell me that’s a nightmare! You guys will have to cuddle your battery because changing it will be rather expensive…
In my opinion, this is an engineering prototype actually industrialized without any further refinements. Maybe they were constrained by time and had no opportunity to work out a cleaner design, but it looks half-finished. They could not afford a WWDC without a real announcement, so it seems Apple released this machine in emergency… Next iteration will be cleaner I hope.
PS : Contrarily to what most people state here, I own a 2 GB model (late-2008 Unibody MacBook with upgradable HD, Ram and easy access battery), do some heavy development with it, and I never hit the point where the machine would go so sluggish it would be unusable…
I put 32GB of DDR3 in my laptop for less than the cost of the 16GB upgrade for the RMBP. If you want to look at 8gb as a "gift from apple due to lower prices", well then, enjoy the blinders.
Your DDR3 RAM isn't the same as what goes in the MBPr, is it?
I have a 2009 MacBook Pro and even though the RAM is easily upgradeable, I'm still using just 2GB after all these years. I don't find it a problem at all running Snow Leopard and the applications I use. I believe that in order for Apple to make this new MacBook Pro as thin as it is, there is going to be a tradeoff of component accessability and as long as I know it beforehand, I'll buy a model with more RAM and hope I can get four years comfortable use out of it. I'm not mourning the loss of upgradeable RAM at all but then again I'm not a power user. I don't know if I'm the typical user or not but I don't think most consumers will bother to upgrade RAM at all. I make sure I always get AppleCare so I'm also not concerned about user-friendly replacement parts. Soldered RAM will not stop me from buying an Apple MacBook Pro.
The amount of RAM required is really dependent on the use the MBP is put to. You would find running CS6 or editing HD video for a living a pain with 2 Gigs but for iWorks or MS Office for example it would suffice. That said 4 GIGS would be far better.
Soldering RAM to the computer's motherboard? Apple hasn't done that since the "Fat Mac" Macintosh 512k! That model was replaced by the Macintosh Plus in January 1986 which had memory slots. This has been the case for every Mac model up until now. (The iDevices are a different class and don't count.) There's a good reason why soldering memory to the motherboard only lasted for the very first 2 Macintosh models.
It seems that memory usage isn't expanding as fast as it once did. But still, I have to think that this is probably a mistake.
PS : Contrarily to what most people state here, I own a 2 GB model (late-2008 Unibody MacBook with upgradable HD, Ram and easy access battery), do some heavy development with it, and I never hit the point where the machine would go so sluggish it would be unusable…
Try running Mail, Safari, Lightroom, and Photoshop on 2 GB RAM and you'll change your tune.
Soldering RAM to the computer's motherboard? Apple hasn't done that since the "Fat Mac" Macintosh 512k! That model was replaced by the Macintosh Plus in January 1986 which had memory slots. This has been the case for every Mac model up until now. (The iDevices are a different class and don't count.) There's a good reason why soldering memory to the motherboard only lasted for the very first 2 Macintosh models.
It seems that memory usage isn't expanding as fast as it once did. But still, I have to think that this is probably a mistake.
That is incorrect. The MacBook Air has soldered RAM. In addition. a number of previous systems (such as my old IIsi) had a combination of soldered and socketed RAM.
Well if soldered RAM is so great then maybe the Mac Pro replacement can use it.
The truth is, Apple pulled this stunt because they care more about marketing to computer-illiterate consumers than they do about pros.
That's a ridiculous argument. Do you really think that the usage pattern of a 12 core Xeon system with 64 GB of RAM and 8 TB of internal storage is the same as a laptop with 4 cores and a single drive?
So the low end Retina MBP is actually $2400 unless you only need the 8GB for email and internet stuff.
A $2000+ laptop without upgradable RAM? A sh!t ton of bullsh!t!
Then don't buy one.
And arguing that the base is $2400 is ridiculous. 8 GB is plenty for lots and lots of people. Personally, I'll get 16, but there are hundreds of millions of people who are currently using 2 GB or less - so 8 GB is more than enough.
I agree with you, It's really the HD video and high end photoshop users that needs the big memories. We crave it it like a drug addict! I suddenly had a flash back to my Mac II fx and lovingly looking at the 8 MB of RAM (when most folks thought 512K or 1MB was rocking) and thinking OMG I'll never need more that this! / smile
The SSD is my main concern. I was really hoping Apple would come up with dual drives in the flagship model. An HD and an SSD with easy access to upgrade the HD to SSD when prices fall. The bench mark on my early 2010 MBP i7 is pathetic next to current models so I want to upgrade but my user folder is over 750 GIGS so I need a TB at least in drive space! Yes i have the ability to off load stuff to externals but that would be a pain. Even now I have to put up with a slow drive as no 7200 RPM 2.5 TB drives existed when I upgraded it, not even sure they exist now. So 1TB of SSD is out of the question at present and that's not going to be affordable for a year or two I suspect. I could modify a 2012 MBP by removing the optical and adding SSD but no Retina that way. No easy answer other than returning to a next gen Mac Pro, oh that means waiting till 2013... . /sigh
I guess I will start off loading 50% that user folder today ...
They've been mortally offended by pentalobe screws right from the beginning. Maybe they see them as a threat to their income.
Or maybe they got tired of people demanding that Apple fix problems caused by incompetents mucking about inside of the computer or choosing junky RAM.
Yoo hoo, context warning: "They've" refers to iFixit, not Apple. Why in the world would iFixit be demanding that Apple fix problems caused by ham-handed hobbyists?
I don't mind that the RAM is soldered and non-upgradable. I don't mind that the SSD is proprietary. But it really puts me out that the 256GB SSD is the only option on the base model. Anyone know why that is?
I don't mind that the RAM is soldered and non-upgradable. I don't mind that the SSD is proprietary. But it really puts me out that the 256GB SSD is the only option on the base model. Anyone know why that is?
I don't mind that 256GB is the only option on the base model.
Of all things, why is the SSD socketed? It doesn't work this way in 2012, with thin, light and portable.
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by Constable Odo
I have a 2009 MacBook Pro and even though the RAM is easily upgradeable, I'm still using just 2GB after all these years. I don't find it a problem at all running Snow Leopard and the applications I use. I believe that in order for Apple to make this new MacBook Pro as thin as it is, there is going to be a tradeoff of component accessability and as long as I know it beforehand, I'll buy a model with more RAM and hope I can get four years comfortable use out of it. I'm not mourning the loss of upgradeable RAM at all but then again I'm not a power user. I don't know if I'm the typical user or not but I don't think most consumers will bother to upgrade RAM at all. I make sure I always get AppleCare so I'm also not concerned about user-friendly replacement parts. Soldered RAM will not stop me from buying an Apple MacBook Pro.
Are you running 64 bit kernel? On my macs 64 bit kernel is using anywhere from 450 to 1.5 GB. On 17'' MBP it's 450 MB on iMac 762 MB and on Mac Pro 1.5 GB right after boot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
Ultimately, it comes down to how many people actually bother with upgrading their RAM. If the number is small enough, soldered RAM isn't a problem. If a significant number of people want to upgrade their RAM, there could be some backlash.
However, given the modest price for the upgrade to 16 GB, I would simply get the higher RAM from the start and it should be sufficient for most people for the life of the computer. Heck, I'm currently still stuck at 3 GB and lots of people are using even less.
3 GB RAM isn't nearly enough for serious work. On a Mini with 3 GB RAM I can't even use Safari and Lightroom at the same time.
8GB standard RAM isn't bad for the $2200 MacBook, but it's pathetic on the $2800 model given that it cannot be upgraded. Apple's pulling a fast one on consumers here, building in obsolescence far beyond what most computer makers do. It's disgusting.
I'll take more HD bays and RAM slots over thinness, but if a person want's portability they will prefer the reverse. Apple is stupid to convert their whole laptop line to MacBook Air designs, which is what it looks like they're about to do. It's like they don't want professionals using their gear anymore.
Glued battery cells? Tell me that’s a nightmare! You guys will have to cuddle your battery because changing it will be rather expensive…
In my opinion, this is an engineering prototype actually industrialized without any further refinements. Maybe they were constrained by time and had no opportunity to work out a cleaner design, but it looks half-finished. They could not afford a WWDC without a real announcement, so it seems Apple released this machine in emergency… Next iteration will be cleaner I hope.
PS : Contrarily to what most people state here, I own a 2 GB model (late-2008 Unibody MacBook with upgradable HD, Ram and easy access battery), do some heavy development with it, and I never hit the point where the machine would go so sluggish it would be unusable…
Quote:
Originally Posted by mausz
Cost : Why would it be lower ? Support/replacement is more expensive
Reliability : Maybe, because you won't have badly seated ram, but wat happens when at QC you find a bad memory chip....
Performance : No difference between soldered/non-soldered
Compact design : The only plausible reasong in my opinion.
Cost: fewer components (with associated failure modes/rates).
Reliability: Cut out socket-related failure modes (admittedly small factor, but...) You test memory before assembly, don't you?
Performance: See above; speed not sole performance criterion.
Compact design: Exactly; packaging is as much art as science.
Cons: You give up easy upgrade and trade off repairability, which is partly offset by increased reliability.
It's a juggling game, always has been.
So the low end Retina MBP is actually $2400 unless you only need the 8GB for email and internet stuff.
A $2000+ laptop without upgradable RAM? A sh!t ton of bullsh!t!
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008
I must say this is the most snarky teardown (pun unintended) of a Mac by iFixit.
They've been mortally offended by pentalobe screws right from the beginning. Maybe they see them as a threat to their income.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo42
I put 32GB of DDR3 in my laptop for less than the cost of the 16GB upgrade for the RMBP. If you want to look at 8gb as a "gift from apple due to lower prices", well then, enjoy the blinders.
Your DDR3 RAM isn't the same as what goes in the MBPr, is it?
Well if soldered RAM is so great then maybe the Mac Pro replacement can use it.
The truth is, Apple pulled this stunt because they care more about marketing to computer-illiterate consumers than they do about pros.
The amount of RAM required is really dependent on the use the MBP is put to. You would find running CS6 or editing HD video for a living a pain with 2 Gigs but for iWorks or MS Office for example it would suffice. That said 4 GIGS would be far better.
It seems that memory usage isn't expanding as fast as it once did. But still, I have to think that this is probably a mistake.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EauVive
PS : Contrarily to what most people state here, I own a 2 GB model (late-2008 Unibody MacBook with upgradable HD, Ram and easy access battery), do some heavy development with it, and I never hit the point where the machine would go so sluggish it would be unusable…
Try running Mail, Safari, Lightroom, and Photoshop on 2 GB RAM and you'll change your tune.
That is incorrect. The MacBook Air has soldered RAM. In addition. a number of previous systems (such as my old IIsi) had a combination of soldered and socketed RAM.
That's a ridiculous argument. Do you really think that the usage pattern of a 12 core Xeon system with 64 GB of RAM and 8 TB of internal storage is the same as a laptop with 4 cores and a single drive?
Or maybe they got tired of people demanding that Apple fix problems caused by incompetents mucking about inside of the computer or choosing junky RAM.
Then don't buy one.
And arguing that the base is $2400 is ridiculous. 8 GB is plenty for lots and lots of people. Personally, I'll get 16, but there are hundreds of millions of people who are currently using 2 GB or less - so 8 GB is more than enough.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Junkyard Dawg
Well if soldered RAM is so great then maybe the Mac Pro replacement can use it.
The truth is, Apple pulled this stunt because they care more about marketing to computer-illiterate consumers than they do about pros.
1: Completely different operating constraints between the two machines.
2: You need to think about things like packaging constraints (the whole physical package), EMI, thermal management, ...
Pros don't want to be mucking about inside their tools, they just want to get work done. They're not generally hobbyists.
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips
I agree with you, It's really the HD video and high end photoshop users that needs the big memories. We crave it it like a drug addict! I suddenly had a flash back to my Mac II fx and lovingly looking at the 8 MB of RAM (when most folks thought 512K or 1MB was rocking) and thinking OMG I'll never need more that this! / smile
The SSD is my main concern. I was really hoping Apple would come up with dual drives in the flagship model. An HD and an SSD with easy access to upgrade the HD to SSD when prices fall. The bench mark on my early 2010 MBP i7 is pathetic next to current models so I want to upgrade but my user folder is over 750 GIGS so I need a TB at least in drive space! Yes i have the ability to off load stuff to externals but that would be a pain. Even now I have to put up with a slow drive as no 7200 RPM 2.5 TB drives existed when I upgraded it, not even sure they exist now. So 1TB of SSD is out of the question at present and that's not going to be affordable for a year or two I suspect. I could modify a 2012 MBP by removing the optical and adding SSD but no Retina that way. No easy answer other than returning to a next gen Mac Pro, oh that means waiting till 2013... . /sigh
I guess I will start off loading 50% that user folder today ...
Maybe one (or two) of these? http://www.lacie.com/products/product.htm?id=10549
Quote:
Originally Posted by Junkyard Dawg
So the low end Retina MBP is actually $2400 unless you only need the 8GB for email and internet stuff.
A $2000+ laptop without upgradable RAM? A sh!t ton of bullsh!t!
You forget, the Retina MBP is for Pros... like Jamie Dimon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
Quote:
Originally Posted by steveH
They've been mortally offended by pentalobe screws right from the beginning. Maybe they see them as a threat to their income.
Or maybe they got tired of people demanding that Apple fix problems caused by incompetents mucking about inside of the computer or choosing junky RAM.
Yoo hoo, context warning: "They've" refers to iFixit, not Apple. Why in the world would iFixit be demanding that Apple fix problems caused by ham-handed hobbyists?
I don't mind that the RAM is soldered and non-upgradable. I don't mind that the SSD is proprietary. But it really puts me out that the 256GB SSD is the only option on the base model. Anyone know why that is?
You can’t make it thin, light, portable and user upgradable. Doesn’t work that way … at least in 2012.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBillyGoatGruff
I don't mind that the RAM is soldered and non-upgradable. I don't mind that the SSD is proprietary. But it really puts me out that the 256GB SSD is the only option on the base model. Anyone know why that is?
I don't mind that 256GB is the only option on the base model.
Of all things, why is the SSD socketed? It doesn't work this way in 2012, with thin, light and portable.
I wonder how Apple technicians are reacting at the thought of repairing these new laptops.