Short sighted? Did you read post 114? The premise of my argument is that Microsoft doesn't have a suitable marketing strategy. MS sells its wares through Dell, HP, and Acer. I assume none of them will sell the Surface. So where is MS going to sell this thing? If MS sells to retailers like Best Buy, it will be targeting a consumer market, yet the most attractive feature of the device is that it runs full versions of MS Office and has a powerful processor (i.e., features that enterprise users want). What's your response?
Also, there were many posts about how a soft keyboard doesn't work unless you have a hard surface like a table. What's your response to that?
Enterprise market: M$ already sells directly and indirectly to large enterprises, the same channel can be used for enterprise deployment: order 3500 licenses of Win8 and throw in 736 units of Surface. You don't really think enterprise customers care where stuff comes from, otherwise a large number of mail order businesses targeting enterprise customers would be out of business a long time ago.
Keyboard: exactly where and how would you want to type other than on a table? The keyboard is a complementary, not an exclusive input device.
A keyboard cover like that works great in the library, a café, an air plane, at a bar, on the breakfast tray in bed, etc. If you're standing up holding the tablet in one hand, you're not going to use a keyboard like that anyway, hard or soft doesn't matter. A soft keyboard will at least somewhat conform to a non-even surface, and not wiggle around like a stiff keyboard will. And it will act as a shock absorber for the screen when used as a cover. Everything has pros and cons, there's no single one perfect solution.
So the problem with Microsoft's complementary approach isn't that it's fundamentally wrong, but that it's premature, because battery life/form factor will disappoint (leaving the factor called "Windows" out of the picture for the moment, because any Apple device that would be "Surface" like wouldn't run Windows anyway...)
I disagree. Combining a touch pad with a PC is fundamentally flawed. A touch pad is optimized for consuming content, not creating it. It needs to be as light a possible, have as much battery life as possible and provide as much screen area and resolution as possible. Adding keyboards and CPU power for doing desktop work will force compromises. The kickstand exemplifies the problem. It detracts from the touch pad experience and doesn't come close to providing the stability and user experience of a clam shell design laptop, which doesn't require a surface to work and can angle the screen at any angle. compromise, compromise, compromise. It is a stupid idea and I predict this style of computing will never surpass single digit market share as compared to touch pads or laptops.
Don't get me wrong, there is a market for computing devices with a vertically stable screen. It's called a laptop. That's why I own a MBA and an iPad.
So the problem with Microsoft's complementary approach isn't that it's fundamentally wrong, but that it's premature, because battery life/form factor will disappoint (leaving the factor called "Windows" out of the picture for the moment, because any Apple device that would be "Surface" like wouldn't run Windows anyway...)
I disagree. Combining a touch pad with a PC is fundamentally flawed. A touch pad is optimized for consuming content, not creating it. It needs to be as light a possible, have as much battery life as possible and provide as much screen area and resolution as possible. Adding keyboards and CPU power for doing desktop work will force compromises. The kickstand exemplifies the problem. It detracts from the touch pad experience and doesn't come close to providing the stability and user experience of a clam shell design laptop, which doesn't require a surface to work and can angle the screen at any angle. compromise, compromise, compromise. It is a stupid idea and I predict this style of computing will never surpass single digit market share as compared to touch pads or laptops.
Don't get me wrong, there is a market for computing devices with a vertically stable screen. It's called a laptop. That's why I own a MBA and an iPad.
I don't think you understand the concept. In a few years, an iPad will be just as powerful as a MacBook Air. As such, the iPad can still function in tablet mode. But nothing prevents such a hypothetical iPad from being inserted into a clamshell case that sports a keyboard (and maybe some extra battery and IO ports) and BECOME a laptop, while running the same OS with an UI that adapts to different device configurations.
The point here is NOT to integrate the keyboard into an iPad, but had the iPad or even iPhone (once they are powerful enough) become the CPU of a desktop/laptop system.
Think of it this way: who cares what a Mac Mini looks like? Right? You care about your big screen and your keyboard, that's "the computer" even if the computer is really that square little box stuck somewhere in a bookshelf with an Apple Logo on top.
So, why shouldn't it be possible and useful (once the devices are powerful enough) to replace that Mac Mini with an iPhone or iPad, and use it just like a desktop when you're at home, but when you unplug it, it just behaves like a tablet, by adapting it's GUI to the working style you currently have?
That's the point here: not to make a clumsy all in one device, but an OS that adapts based on what peripherals are or aren't in use. It's only a software question, once the devices have enough compute power. There's really nothing to it. There's no compromising the iPad, because the additions required are minimal.
So the tablet experience remains unaffected by the ability of the device to act as a desktop or laptop, once inserted into the proper case or docking station.
A touch pad is optimized for consuming content, not creating it.
Why are we stuck on the idea of an iPad as a consumption only device? Ok ok ok so you say optimized for consuming it...not creating it...but still. What is a Wacom tablet? A large surface for consuming content? Our abilities to create with tablets may not be at quite the level of a laptop/desktop with a full desktop OS but it is getting there and it won't be long before it is there. Its really only an issue of software and UI.
Nikon - Here's the deal. We don't know what we can do with Surface RT or Surface Pro. They don't exist yet. If you read my post earlier, it said to wait and see. Nothing has really been released about these two devices and anything that has...maybe subject to change. When it comes to Microsoft...don't let them fool you into becoming a hype machine for their crap that has only seen limited demo time and exposure. Not only that, but nobody has been allowed to do much beyond marvel at the painstakingly sculpted bevel, the over-engineered kickstand and the fact that full Windows can run on the Pro. Guess what? Full Windows is likely going to be the reason nobody wants the Pro. The RT may sell. Full Windows on anything other than a laptop/netbook or desktop PC doesn't sell very well. Why? It's not a viable mobile solution. On the other hand, people (even some professionals) are doing content creation on iPads and whether you think its amazing or not, is irrelevant. People are doing it. I do quite a bit of creating on mine and I'm a graphic designer. Not only that, but as iOS gets more and more powerful, the apps we use now that do these things will also get more powerful...more "heavy-duty". People are not doing anything on Surface tablets. Yet. End of story. Move on. Tell us how amazing and incredible editing and creating on a Surface is once you have one in your hands.
Its funny that the very same people who act like this thing has already arrived are also the same people who tell critics that they can't say much bad about the devices yet cause they don't exist. See the problem with that?
That's all fine. I didn't say Surface is going to revolutionize mobile computing, kill iPad or anything like that. I didn't eves say it will be successful. I only sad I'm finding it an interesting idea. I also said I don't think iPad can replace laptop - for me. Surface might - if it turns out OK. Which still doesn't mean it will be successful on global scale.
How Do you Charge the battery in either Surface keyboard???
I believe there is shallow, magnetic connector where keyboard sticks to tablet. But is there actual battery in any of covers/keyboards? Or is it just to power the keyboard from tablet's battery?
You can currently use an iPad for cutting DSLR footage in iMovie and reviewing/light editing of raw images in iPhoto and other image processing apps. Running a full-blown NLE on the Surface, good luck with that.
I've checked some reviews about iPad raw editing (was it PiRAWna app?) and workflows, but it seemed a bit too light for my wants. Though I will revisit available reviews when time to choose comes, both on I pads, Androids and Surface (if they really hit the market at all).
Re videos, storage is a bit of a problem. My tablet - especially when travelling - is well populated with movies and TV shows, and lesser files... so not much space to copy video footage. Thus I like the idea of being able to plug in USB hdd, at least when in room. But again, I only like the idea - only time will tell how well will it be realised.
Don't come into an Apple-oriented web site and start by calling people "shortsighted" "Apple fanboys"... most people will tune out after that opening.
You claim that the Surface when/if it arrives is "doing something no iPad-era tablet has done before - it's moving up market and attempting to serve as a replacement for a computer, rather than a companion to one."
You don't seem to understand what the iPad is -- it's a new category -- a post pc device. It isn't a PC WannaBe, it is a new category servicing a different need (quite well, thank you).
What you are suggesting is, that after creating a new category and a new solution -- that the iPad should regress and merge with the categories it replaced.
That would be like putting a dimple QWERTY KB on an iPhone or hitching a horse to a Model A -- it makes no sense. We already have better tablets and laptops than either Surface will ever be!
BTW, Apple has been at this a while, and I suspect they have tried and rejected all the things that the Surface is attempting to be/do.
The best Windows mobile computers are made by Apple!
BTW,
I. Grew up in St. Louis Park!
Surely the iPad is not new category, it is a subcategory of computers.
Tablets may not be pitched as laptop replacements but it is undeniable that many tablets are being purchased by people that decided that they didn't need the full functionality of a laptop, so rather than pay a hefty premium for an ultra-portable pc they went for the cheaper option and gained the other advantages such as supeior battery life and "instant" boot.
For the above group of people the iPad is a replacement laptop by any other name. In an ideal world they would have had sufficient income to upgrade their laptop at the same time as purchasing a tablet but this is beyond the means of most people.
I carry my laptop everywhere, most of the time I am running basic programs that can be adequately handled by a tablet but there are times that I need to run fully fledged programs or need to transfer data to and from my USB flash drive. Carrying an iPad with me would suit my needs for 60% of the (computing) time but would still leave me needing to carry my laptop, it would increase my overall weight (mass) burden by 50% and total spend by 20%. If (and that's a big if) the Surface Pro (or other such devices) live up to the hype then I am possibly going to purchase one. I can leave my laptop at home and lug around a device that has a far lower replacement cost. In the event that I do buy one I am then going to more likely to purchase a WP8 as well, if i must be locked into a phone app ecosystem it will make sense to go the whole hog.
Of course none of the above might ever happen, the Surface might be a turkey. However if it is successfull then it will eat into the iPad market and force Apple to adapt to a shifting market. Granted Apple might or might not have already experimented in this area but just because they don't offer something today it does not mean that they will not offer it tomorrow.
Apple's genius of late has been in convincing people that they want things. They looked at the smart phone market and realised that it and the freedoms that it offered were considered geeky, they simplified it and sexed it up. For a significant period of time they enjoyed the lion's share of the rewards, app sales aside, that share has been eroded by the competion. Later they looked at the netbook market, released the iPad and pretty much killed the sales of netbooks., here they are still the undesputed kings but the public are fickle. Constant hardware upgrades alone will not be enough to maintain that position. Love or loathe Microsoft, they are being brave by taking such a big gamble with Windows 8 and forcing the tablet market to move in new directions. IMO the biggest risk they face is poaching members of the general public away from Apple whilst alienating their (lucrative) core business users.
I don't know what the future will hold but to malign a product ahead of it's release just becasue it says MicroSoft on it is puerile.
I believe there is shallow, magnetic connector where keyboard sticks to tablet. But is there actual battery in any of covers/keyboards? Or is it just to power the keyboard from tablet's battery?
I would have thought that it would be passive, meaning that it will only work when connected. BTW there will be 2 versions, the second will be slightly thicker (6.8mm Vs 3mm) and will provide 1.5mm travel, much the same as a standard laptop keyboard.
People here need to decide what they are discussing, because they are mixing things up.
The one question, if the Surface is going to suck or not, or if it's going to be successful or not, is a side issue, because it's an issue of execution, timing, current state of technlogy and the capability of the marketing and sales teams.
The other questions, and that's what the headline of the article suggests is the main issue, is this:
Quote:
There is 'a strong possibility' Apple needs a Surface-like device
A Surface-like device is a device that converges two product categories. This has a tradition. e.g. smart-phones are convergent device of what once was called a PDA and a cell phone, and then modern smartphones are convergent devices of anything from FM radios, GPS navigation devices, point&shoot photo cameras, Fliq-like video cameras, PDAs, and mobile phones.
At every turn, any marketer worth his salt would try to keep product categories apart for as long as possible in order to be able to make two rather than one sale. One of the reasons Apple was so disruptive in the market, because they were the ones who agressively brought these categories together, crossing the strategy of the rest of the industry of selling many iterations and generations of evolutionary change to maximize profit, by being the new kid on the block who offered a short cut to the future.
The convergence of tablets and laptops is pretty much a given, because making computers faster and more power efficient means making them smaller, which means eventually they will all look like an iPad in the sense that the computer is a chewing gum sized stick somewhere in a case otherwise filled with batteries. The question is only when that stick will offer enough compute power to be the equivalent of a laptop.
Look at the development of the desktop computer: things got smaller and smaller, until eventually (witness the iMac) the screen became the computer. If you have a laptop in which the screen becomes the computer, you have in essence something like an iPad, plus a (detachable/optional) keyboard, and that in turn is a Surface-like device, in that it's both a tablet and a laptop, depending on how you're going to use it.
How usable such a device is, depends on how well the GUI adapts to the current mode of usage. The old WinCE showed how not to adapt a desktop OS for phone/tablet. iOS showed how to adapt what is in essence Mac OS X to a phone/tablet. Nothing in software forbids to have an OS to have multiple GUI personalities. Just as the iPhone/iPad can adjust to horizontal vs. vertical screen orientation, or iPhone vs. iPad screen size, it could adjust it's entire GUI depending on whether the device is in laptop or tablet/phone mode.
The whole post-PC device thing is a marketing slogan. It draws attention to a particular aspect of technology in such a way as to create in the mind of consumers two distinct product categories that makes them think they need to own two devices, and Apple would be stupid not to do this, for as long as they can, because it helps their bottom line.
Jobs was known to create market categories that made his products look like a winner, so much so, that back in the day when the excellent NeXT workstations had trouble getting adopted due to the chicken&egg problem with users&software, people were joking that NeXT was the world leader of black education workstations.
Personally I think that the Surface is not ready for prime time, because the ARM based one will lack compute power for real laptop/desktop apps, and the x86 based version is too thick and heavy and will likely still have too short of a battery life to be a decent tablet. But just because something is too early, doesn't mean it's the wrong concept; just technology isn't ready yet.
It's also clear why MS is gambling on doing this now: it's one way they can hope to take the lead again by creating a category in which Apple looks like they are playing catch-up, and that if successful may force Apple to end a product strategy that makes people buy both a laptop and an iPad, which would shrink their profitability quite a bit. They risk, however, that their product is so much premature, that it becomes a joke for its flaws, which would allow Apple to ride on its current strategy even longer, and raise their long term profitability, by delaying the point when they have to offer a convergent device to the point when Android/ChromeOS competition may force them to enter that market, at which point they'd have the chance to show once again "how it's really done".
So it's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when, and of who gets to claim to have the leadership role in the segment. Some may remember the reports from quite some time ago, that Apple supposedly internally tested MacBook Airs based on ARM chips, and Apple supposedly being surprised by how well OS X performed on an ARM CPU. You can bet, these experiments were made in view of the time when convergent devices were pushing onto the market, knowing that x86 CPU power consumption would be a big stumbling block. So for the very reasons MS does now an ARM based version of Win8, Apple must have an ARM based version of OS X in their labs. The whole one OS, multiple CPU types scenario NeXT/Apple has played out multiple times, because NeXTSTEP/Darwin/OS X/iOS and it's apps ran on a variation of m68k, m88k, RISC, MIPS, SPARC, x86, and ARM, and at almost any given point it had the ability to create universal binaries that ran on more than one CPU platform.
So don't be surprised when in the not too distant future MacBoook Airs have quad-core ARM chips instead of dual-core x86 chips, double their battery life and retain roughly the same performance, while coming down in price by a couple of hundred bucks to light the fire under the Surface. Might as well have a detachable/flippable touch screen that doubles as iPad at that point. But of course, Apple is in no hurry to compete with itself to lower its own profits. So as long as the Surface and its imitators don't become a major force in the market, Apple will do its best to convince people that tablets and laptops are two things that shall never meet...
...and by most of the comments here, the Apple marketing department is doing a good job; for now. (And they will do an equally good job at convincing everyone why when they introduce such a device, none of what is said now matters anymore...)
Ok...woa there. I thought I was long-winded at times.
I don't think there's any confusion about the topic. I think you are forcing some sort of implied confusion that doesn't exist. The topic is about Bill Gates stating that Apple may need a Surface like product in order to continue being successful in that market. The reality of it is that this is simply not true. Microsoft needs an iPad like product to even be remotely back on the map let alone be successful. Surface might prove to be that product, but Apple does not in any way shape or form need a tablet product with a full desktop OS. It may need to evolve iOS into something more full-featured that does more stuff that OS X does, but in no way does Apple need to shoehorn OS X in its current form onto a tablet.
Gates talks about not needing to compromise with the Surface. It's the best of both worlds. The simple fact of the matter is...if you cannot type on an iPad, you probably won't be able to type too much better on a thin hardware keyboard that is only marginally wider (due to not having a bezel in the way). If he wants his customers to avoid compromise...might as well sell the thing with one of Microsoft's larger BT keyboards. It's got that sexy kickstand right? Prop it up on your desk and put the keyboard in front of it and voila! No compromise...oh except that now you are typing with a full keyboard and doing all your "heavy-duty" full-on Windows app work on a tiny screen. Ok so find some way to hook it up to a bigger screen and...ok so that's a Mac Mini at this point. Maybe Microsoft needs a Mac Mini like product. Who knows. To be honest, I think they need to focus on making Windows and Office must have software that people actually want to use (this means consumers...not the 99% of the 1% who think Windows will be around after the apocalypse) rather than trying to create some "paradigm-shifting super-deluxe" tablet that is neither paradigm-shifting or super-deluxe. This has all pretty much been done before...and it isn't really all that revolutionary. It may end up being a runaway product, but we don't know.
What I do know is that Gates and Ballmer were meant for each other. One is a genius with no taste and apparently no concept of reality and the latter is a big dumb lumbering oaf who has sucked the life out of the company the other founded. Keep drinking the Kool-Aid, Bill. The reality that provides is better the one where you watch the Microtanic sink with Captain Steven "Chairs-a-flyin" Ballmer at the helm.
I would have thought that it would be passive, meaning that it will only work when connected. BTW there will be 2 versions, the second will be slightly thicker (6.8mm Vs 3mm) and will provide 1.5mm travel, much the same as a standard laptop keyboard.
Where did you hear this? MS never mentioned a second keyboard at all during their Surface demo, and the specs page doesn't mention it.
Or are you just hoping they'll have a real keyboard?
I love that demo video. The moment the guy tries to do something outside the demo app the MS guy takes the tablet away. What are you hiding?! Oh well, it wasn't enough to prevent most Slashgear readers from salivating over it. Its things like that that make me immediately suspicious and proves that this thing is not done. Yes, Apple certainly needs a Surface-like device...and once they've made it, they can keep it in their super-secret "vault-o-prototypes" which is full of devices that never see the light of day.
While no-one should think Gates is stupid, the capital he accumulated in the '80s and '90s doesn't confer genius on every utterance. Of course he echoes the Ballmer line, which is, Windows on every desktop." Not "and iWindows on every mobile device." That's why every Windows tablet sold a few to a vertical market and like two to computer nerds. Now they partially get the idea, but the old unitary monopolism still has a pull. I think it will shatter the old Windows market. Doing Apple's job in that sense better than Apple could dream of
Would all the MS fanboys go back to their barracks and continue to take their pills - you can hullicinate about an iPad esque future on windows for another decade. I came out of MS hell three years ago, Bill Gates, Balmer & co can make all the noise they want about 'new'; productsd - fact is Apple got in FIRST, the wheel can not be reinvented guys lol
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by ash471
Short sighted? Did you read post 114? The premise of my argument is that Microsoft doesn't have a suitable marketing strategy. MS sells its wares through Dell, HP, and Acer. I assume none of them will sell the Surface. So where is MS going to sell this thing? If MS sells to retailers like Best Buy, it will be targeting a consumer market, yet the most attractive feature of the device is that it runs full versions of MS Office and has a powerful processor (i.e., features that enterprise users want). What's your response?
Also, there were many posts about how a soft keyboard doesn't work unless you have a hard surface like a table. What's your response to that?
Enterprise market: M$ already sells directly and indirectly to large enterprises, the same channel can be used for enterprise deployment: order 3500 licenses of Win8 and throw in 736 units of Surface. You don't really think enterprise customers care where stuff comes from, otherwise a large number of mail order businesses targeting enterprise customers would be out of business a long time ago.
Keyboard: exactly where and how would you want to type other than on a table? The keyboard is a complementary, not an exclusive input device.
A keyboard cover like that works great in the library, a café, an air plane, at a bar, on the breakfast tray in bed, etc. If you're standing up holding the tablet in one hand, you're not going to use a keyboard like that anyway, hard or soft doesn't matter. A soft keyboard will at least somewhat conform to a non-even surface, and not wiggle around like a stiff keyboard will. And it will act as a shock absorber for the screen when used as a cover. Everything has pros and cons, there's no single one perfect solution.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rcfa
So the problem with Microsoft's complementary approach isn't that it's fundamentally wrong, but that it's premature, because battery life/form factor will disappoint (leaving the factor called "Windows" out of the picture for the moment, because any Apple device that would be "Surface" like wouldn't run Windows anyway...)
I disagree. Combining a touch pad with a PC is fundamentally flawed. A touch pad is optimized for consuming content, not creating it. It needs to be as light a possible, have as much battery life as possible and provide as much screen area and resolution as possible. Adding keyboards and CPU power for doing desktop work will force compromises. The kickstand exemplifies the problem. It detracts from the touch pad experience and doesn't come close to providing the stability and user experience of a clam shell design laptop, which doesn't require a surface to work and can angle the screen at any angle. compromise, compromise, compromise. It is a stupid idea and I predict this style of computing will never surpass single digit market share as compared to touch pads or laptops.
Don't get me wrong, there is a market for computing devices with a vertically stable screen. It's called a laptop. That's why I own a MBA and an iPad.
I don't think you understand the concept. In a few years, an iPad will be just as powerful as a MacBook Air. As such, the iPad can still function in tablet mode. But nothing prevents such a hypothetical iPad from being inserted into a clamshell case that sports a keyboard (and maybe some extra battery and IO ports) and BECOME a laptop, while running the same OS with an UI that adapts to different device configurations.
The point here is NOT to integrate the keyboard into an iPad, but had the iPad or even iPhone (once they are powerful enough) become the CPU of a desktop/laptop system.
Think of it this way: who cares what a Mac Mini looks like? Right? You care about your big screen and your keyboard, that's "the computer" even if the computer is really that square little box stuck somewhere in a bookshelf with an Apple Logo on top.
So, why shouldn't it be possible and useful (once the devices are powerful enough) to replace that Mac Mini with an iPhone or iPad, and use it just like a desktop when you're at home, but when you unplug it, it just behaves like a tablet, by adapting it's GUI to the working style you currently have?
That's the point here: not to make a clumsy all in one device, but an OS that adapts based on what peripherals are or aren't in use. It's only a software question, once the devices have enough compute power. There's really nothing to it. There's no compromising the iPad, because the additions required are minimal.
So the tablet experience remains unaffected by the ability of the device to act as a desktop or laptop, once inserted into the proper case or docking station.
Some people who get it: http://www.ubuntu.com/devices/android
Not that I think the devices are powerful enough to really do what we expect of a Mac desktop OS at this point, but that day will come.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ash471
A touch pad is optimized for consuming content, not creating it.
Why are we stuck on the idea of an iPad as a consumption only device? Ok ok ok so you say optimized for consuming it...not creating it...but still. What is a Wacom tablet? A large surface for consuming content? Our abilities to create with tablets may not be at quite the level of a laptop/desktop with a full desktop OS but it is getting there and it won't be long before it is there. Its really only an issue of software and UI.
That's all fine. I didn't say Surface is going to revolutionize mobile computing, kill iPad or anything like that. I didn't eves say it will be successful. I only sad I'm finding it an interesting idea. I also said I don't think iPad can replace laptop - for me. Surface might - if it turns out OK. Which still doesn't mean it will be successful on global scale.
Same as laptops, I'd guess. That is why they all come with chargers ;-)
I believe there is shallow, magnetic connector where keyboard sticks to tablet. But is there actual battery in any of covers/keyboards? Or is it just to power the keyboard from tablet's battery?
Oh, it follows just fine.
I've checked some reviews about iPad raw editing (was it PiRAWna app?) and workflows, but it seemed a bit too light for my wants. Though I will revisit available reviews when time to choose comes, both on I pads, Androids and Surface (if they really hit the market at all).
Re videos, storage is a bit of a problem. My tablet - especially when travelling - is well populated with movies and TV shows, and lesser files... so not much space to copy video footage. Thus I like the idea of being able to plug in USB hdd, at least when in room. But again, I only like the idea - only time will tell how well will it be realised.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum
Spanky, here's some unsolicited advice:
Don't come into an Apple-oriented web site and start by calling people "shortsighted" "Apple fanboys"... most people will tune out after that opening.
You claim that the Surface when/if it arrives is "doing something no iPad-era tablet has done before - it's moving up market and attempting to serve as a replacement for a computer, rather than a companion to one."
You don't seem to understand what the iPad is -- it's a new category -- a post pc device. It isn't a PC WannaBe, it is a new category servicing a different need (quite well, thank you).
What you are suggesting is, that after creating a new category and a new solution -- that the iPad should regress and merge with the categories it replaced.
That would be like putting a dimple QWERTY KB on an iPhone or hitching a horse to a Model A -- it makes no sense. We already have better tablets and laptops than either Surface will ever be!
BTW, Apple has been at this a while, and I suspect they have tried and rejected all the things that the Surface is attempting to be/do.
The best Windows mobile computers are made by Apple!
BTW,
I. Grew up in St. Louis Park!
Surely the iPad is not new category, it is a subcategory of computers.
Tablets may not be pitched as laptop replacements but it is undeniable that many tablets are being purchased by people that decided that they didn't need the full functionality of a laptop, so rather than pay a hefty premium for an ultra-portable pc they went for the cheaper option and gained the other advantages such as supeior battery life and "instant" boot.
For the above group of people the iPad is a replacement laptop by any other name. In an ideal world they would have had sufficient income to upgrade their laptop at the same time as purchasing a tablet but this is beyond the means of most people.
I carry my laptop everywhere, most of the time I am running basic programs that can be adequately handled by a tablet but there are times that I need to run fully fledged programs or need to transfer data to and from my USB flash drive. Carrying an iPad with me would suit my needs for 60% of the (computing) time but would still leave me needing to carry my laptop, it would increase my overall weight (mass) burden by 50% and total spend by 20%. If (and that's a big if) the Surface Pro (or other such devices) live up to the hype then I am possibly going to purchase one. I can leave my laptop at home and lug around a device that has a far lower replacement cost. In the event that I do buy one I am then going to more likely to purchase a WP8 as well, if i must be locked into a phone app ecosystem it will make sense to go the whole hog.
Of course none of the above might ever happen, the Surface might be a turkey. However if it is successfull then it will eat into the iPad market and force Apple to adapt to a shifting market. Granted Apple might or might not have already experimented in this area but just because they don't offer something today it does not mean that they will not offer it tomorrow.
Apple's genius of late has been in convincing people that they want things. They looked at the smart phone market and realised that it and the freedoms that it offered were considered geeky, they simplified it and sexed it up. For a significant period of time they enjoyed the lion's share of the rewards, app sales aside, that share has been eroded by the competion. Later they looked at the netbook market, released the iPad and pretty much killed the sales of netbooks., here they are still the undesputed kings but the public are fickle. Constant hardware upgrades alone will not be enough to maintain that position. Love or loathe Microsoft, they are being brave by taking such a big gamble with Windows 8 and forcing the tablet market to move in new directions. IMO the biggest risk they face is poaching members of the general public away from Apple whilst alienating their (lucrative) core business users.
I don't know what the future will hold but to malign a product ahead of it's release just becasue it says MicroSoft on it is puerile.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133
I believe there is shallow, magnetic connector where keyboard sticks to tablet. But is there actual battery in any of covers/keyboards? Or is it just to power the keyboard from tablet's battery?
I would have thought that it would be passive, meaning that it will only work when connected. BTW there will be 2 versions, the second will be slightly thicker (6.8mm Vs 3mm) and will provide 1.5mm travel, much the same as a standard laptop keyboard.
People here need to decide what they are discussing, because they are mixing things up.
The one question, if the Surface is going to suck or not, or if it's going to be successful or not, is a side issue, because it's an issue of execution, timing, current state of technlogy and the capability of the marketing and sales teams.
The other questions, and that's what the headline of the article suggests is the main issue, is this:
Quote:
There is 'a strong possibility' Apple needs a Surface-like device
A Surface-like device is a device that converges two product categories. This has a tradition. e.g. smart-phones are convergent device of what once was called a PDA and a cell phone, and then modern smartphones are convergent devices of anything from FM radios, GPS navigation devices, point&shoot photo cameras, Fliq-like video cameras, PDAs, and mobile phones.
At every turn, any marketer worth his salt would try to keep product categories apart for as long as possible in order to be able to make two rather than one sale. One of the reasons Apple was so disruptive in the market, because they were the ones who agressively brought these categories together, crossing the strategy of the rest of the industry of selling many iterations and generations of evolutionary change to maximize profit, by being the new kid on the block who offered a short cut to the future.
The convergence of tablets and laptops is pretty much a given, because making computers faster and more power efficient means making them smaller, which means eventually they will all look like an iPad in the sense that the computer is a chewing gum sized stick somewhere in a case otherwise filled with batteries. The question is only when that stick will offer enough compute power to be the equivalent of a laptop.
Look at the development of the desktop computer: things got smaller and smaller, until eventually (witness the iMac) the screen became the computer. If you have a laptop in which the screen becomes the computer, you have in essence something like an iPad, plus a (detachable/optional) keyboard, and that in turn is a Surface-like device, in that it's both a tablet and a laptop, depending on how you're going to use it.
How usable such a device is, depends on how well the GUI adapts to the current mode of usage. The old WinCE showed how not to adapt a desktop OS for phone/tablet. iOS showed how to adapt what is in essence Mac OS X to a phone/tablet. Nothing in software forbids to have an OS to have multiple GUI personalities. Just as the iPhone/iPad can adjust to horizontal vs. vertical screen orientation, or iPhone vs. iPad screen size, it could adjust it's entire GUI depending on whether the device is in laptop or tablet/phone mode.
The whole post-PC device thing is a marketing slogan. It draws attention to a particular aspect of technology in such a way as to create in the mind of consumers two distinct product categories that makes them think they need to own two devices, and Apple would be stupid not to do this, for as long as they can, because it helps their bottom line.
Jobs was known to create market categories that made his products look like a winner, so much so, that back in the day when the excellent NeXT workstations had trouble getting adopted due to the chicken&egg problem with users&software, people were joking that NeXT was the world leader of black education workstations.
Personally I think that the Surface is not ready for prime time, because the ARM based one will lack compute power for real laptop/desktop apps, and the x86 based version is too thick and heavy and will likely still have too short of a battery life to be a decent tablet. But just because something is too early, doesn't mean it's the wrong concept; just technology isn't ready yet.
It's also clear why MS is gambling on doing this now: it's one way they can hope to take the lead again by creating a category in which Apple looks like they are playing catch-up, and that if successful may force Apple to end a product strategy that makes people buy both a laptop and an iPad, which would shrink their profitability quite a bit. They risk, however, that their product is so much premature, that it becomes a joke for its flaws, which would allow Apple to ride on its current strategy even longer, and raise their long term profitability, by delaying the point when they have to offer a convergent device to the point when Android/ChromeOS competition may force them to enter that market, at which point they'd have the chance to show once again "how it's really done".
So it's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when, and of who gets to claim to have the leadership role in the segment. Some may remember the reports from quite some time ago, that Apple supposedly internally tested MacBook Airs based on ARM chips, and Apple supposedly being surprised by how well OS X performed on an ARM CPU. You can bet, these experiments were made in view of the time when convergent devices were pushing onto the market, knowing that x86 CPU power consumption would be a big stumbling block. So for the very reasons MS does now an ARM based version of Win8, Apple must have an ARM based version of OS X in their labs. The whole one OS, multiple CPU types scenario NeXT/Apple has played out multiple times, because NeXTSTEP/Darwin/OS X/iOS and it's apps ran on a variation of m68k, m88k, RISC, MIPS, SPARC, x86, and ARM, and at almost any given point it had the ability to create universal binaries that ran on more than one CPU platform.
So don't be surprised when in the not too distant future MacBoook Airs have quad-core ARM chips instead of dual-core x86 chips, double their battery life and retain roughly the same performance, while coming down in price by a couple of hundred bucks to light the fire under the Surface. Might as well have a detachable/flippable touch screen that doubles as iPad at that point. But of course, Apple is in no hurry to compete with itself to lower its own profits. So as long as the Surface and its imitators don't become a major force in the market, Apple will do its best to convince people that tablets and laptops are two things that shall never meet...
...and by most of the comments here, the Apple marketing department is doing a good job; for now. (And they will do an equally good job at convincing everyone why when they introduce such a device, none of what is said now matters anymore...)
@rcfa ;
Ok...woa there. I thought I was long-winded at times.
I don't think there's any confusion about the topic. I think you are forcing some sort of implied confusion that doesn't exist. The topic is about Bill Gates stating that Apple may need a Surface like product in order to continue being successful in that market. The reality of it is that this is simply not true. Microsoft needs an iPad like product to even be remotely back on the map let alone be successful. Surface might prove to be that product, but Apple does not in any way shape or form need a tablet product with a full desktop OS. It may need to evolve iOS into something more full-featured that does more stuff that OS X does, but in no way does Apple need to shoehorn OS X in its current form onto a tablet.
Gates talks about not needing to compromise with the Surface. It's the best of both worlds. The simple fact of the matter is...if you cannot type on an iPad, you probably won't be able to type too much better on a thin hardware keyboard that is only marginally wider (due to not having a bezel in the way). If he wants his customers to avoid compromise...might as well sell the thing with one of Microsoft's larger BT keyboards. It's got that sexy kickstand right? Prop it up on your desk and put the keyboard in front of it and voila! No compromise...oh except that now you are typing with a full keyboard and doing all your "heavy-duty" full-on Windows app work on a tiny screen. Ok so find some way to hook it up to a bigger screen and...ok so that's a Mac Mini at this point. Maybe Microsoft needs a Mac Mini like product. Who knows. To be honest, I think they need to focus on making Windows and Office must have software that people actually want to use (this means consumers...not the 99% of the 1% who think Windows will be around after the apocalypse) rather than trying to create some "paradigm-shifting super-deluxe" tablet that is neither paradigm-shifting or super-deluxe. This has all pretty much been done before...and it isn't really all that revolutionary. It may end up being a runaway product, but we don't know.
What I do know is that Gates and Ballmer were meant for each other. One is a genius with no taste and apparently no concept of reality and the latter is a big dumb lumbering oaf who has sucked the life out of the company the other founded. Keep drinking the Kool-Aid, Bill. The reality that provides is better the one where you watch the Microtanic sink with Captain Steven "Chairs-a-flyin" Ballmer at the helm.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hungover
I would have thought that it would be passive, meaning that it will only work when connected. BTW there will be 2 versions, the second will be slightly thicker (6.8mm Vs 3mm) and will provide 1.5mm travel, much the same as a standard laptop keyboard.
Where did you hear this? MS never mentioned a second keyboard at all during their Surface demo, and the specs page doesn't mention it.
Or are you just hoping they'll have a real keyboard?
Sure they did. They have Touch Cover and Type Cover. Simply put, Touch Cover is capacitive whilst Type Cover has keys that move.
I love that demo video. The moment the guy tries to do something outside the demo app the MS guy takes the tablet away. What are you hiding?! Oh well, it wasn't enough to prevent most Slashgear readers from salivating over it. Its things like that that make me immediately suspicious and proves that this thing is not done. Yes, Apple certainly needs a Surface-like device...and once they've made it, they can keep it in their super-secret "vault-o-prototypes" which is full of devices that never see the light of day.
All you have to do is buy the "Logitech Ultrathin Keyboard Cover" for your iPad, and you have the Microsoft Surface.
Would all the MS fanboys go back to their barracks and continue to take their pills - you can hullicinate about an iPad esque future on windows for another decade. I came out of MS hell three years ago, Bill Gates, Balmer & co can make all the noise they want about 'new'; productsd - fact is Apple got in FIRST, the wheel can not be reinvented guys