The pin out management could be done on the cable. If you notice the image in the article one of the male plug examples has a chip on the back of it.
But then you have the issue of all other cables that you'd connect as well as accessories. Wouldn't be simpler and cheaper to just put the chip in the device and not in each and every cable you sell? Cables do get chips for various reasons but I'm talking about the intelligent management of orchestrating which pins do what when various things are connected.
I was speculating that in order to minimize electronic waste and charger redundancy, if a consumer already had other compatible wall chargers, they could opt out of buying more.
I think thaat would comes down to marketing because you know the backlash when Apple doesn't include something it just means they are being cheap and nickel and diming the consumer. I'd personally like them to remove that component; I certainly never use mine. Aren't they excluded from iPods and have been for years? I think it's only the iPhone and iPad that have them. Reduce the waste, I say.
But then you have the issue of all other cables that you'd connect as well as accessories. Wouldn't be simpler and cheaper to just put the chip in the device and not in each and every cable you sell? Cables do get chips for various reasons but I'm talking about the intelligent management of orchestrating which pins do what when various things are connected.
True, however, I was thinking it may be a way to save internal space in the device for more battery. Every little bit helps as we have discussed with the sim tray.
With third party accessories such as docks they already know which way the device is plugged in.
But not everyone has WiFI. Even 802.11ac — note the iPhone doesn't even have 802.11n 5GHz or multiple spatial streams — would still be slower than the wired connection. It's great as an alternative but to exclude the other is still many years from being a viable option.
Even yesterday I was in a bit of a hurry and decided to plug it in to speed up the sync instead of waiting for the WiFi sync to happen.
"<span style="color:rgb(68,68,68);font-family:Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:14px;line-height:21px;">Why might Apple want to avoid micro-USB? Because charge and sync is about all micro-USB can do, on the face of it; the accessory support, line-level audio out, and video out features the current-day Dock connector sports aren't possible down a four-wire connector."</span>
Well. USB can't handle video as such, but there are (pre)standards for getting video out through the micro-USB connector and some Samsung phones has it implemented.
Edit: Apparently noted in the article, but dismissed as clumsy because of some manufacturer-specific implementation reasons.
Well. USB can't handle video as such, but there are (pre)standards for getting video out through the micro-USB connector and some Samsung phones has it implemented.
Edit: Apparently noted in the article, but dismissed as clumsy because of some manufacturer-specific implementation reasons.
But you still have the issue of getting, say, HDMI or component video to, say, a TV or projector. I think you still need to have the chip in the cable to convert the signal (which makes each cable more expensive), a chip in the device (which is expensive but only for the device and not each cable setup), or use multiple pins (so the device and cable are less technically complex).
Well. USB can't handle video as such, but there are (pre)standards for getting video out through the micro-USB connector and some Samsung phones has it implemented.
Edit: Apparently noted in the article, but dismissed as clumsy because of some manufacturer-specific implementation reasons.
Right. Doesn't really sound like a ready-to-go solution, does it?
I can't tell from those images whether it is keyed (enabling 16 pins) or simply reversable (8 pins)
There appears to be a transceiver chip attached to the connector. So it may well be a non-keyed reversible connector. The chip may be able to detect the orientation (coordinating with something in the device, possibly) and swap the signals around. There's no technical reason why they couldn't do that, but if the chip costs too much, it may adversely affect the price of dock cables/adapters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac_128
Ever notice how PC connectors have the male pins on the device, the female on the cable, so when a cable is inevitably pulled out or the incorrect plug jammed into the port, the pins on the device are broken off requiring a major repair...
Not really. PCs have used both configurations for various kinds of connections and most are female on the device, using male cables:
CGA/EGA/VGA video - male cable, female on PC
DVI video - male cable, female on PC
Serial ports (9- and 25-pin) - female cable, male on PC
Parallel port (25-pin) - male cable, female on PC
Keyboard (old style and PS/2 style) and PS/2 mouse - male cable, female on PC
Game controller - male cable, female on PC
SCSI (not counting adapters using Centronics connectors) - male cable, female on PC
Of course, this doesn't count connectors that don't use the "traditional" concept of pins, like Ethernet, USB, FireWire, DisplayPort, HDMI, etc.
Internal connectors using ribbon cables usually have pins on the motherboard, but that's a completely different situation. Those cables aren't normally inserted and removed very often. They're typically not touched at all after the system is fully assembled.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thataveragejoe
I assume you have actual proof of this, please provide. Also what's something that this 9-pin connector will do that a micro port can't?
The big feature of a Dock connector that USB doesn't support is analog audio in/out. This isn't used when the device is using a USB cable (for syncing/charging) of course, but it is used by all kinds of standalone docks, including those built-in to speaker systems and clock-radios. It is also used by many automotive connection kits including FM transmitters. A dock connector can supply power to external devices (used by the camera connector, for instance.) Finally, there are sense pins that let the device auto-detect certain classes of accessories and to auto-switch audio from the headphone jack to the dock connector
To support current functionality, the dock connector should have:
USB data, power and ground (4 pins)
Stereo audio in (4 pins)
Stereo audio out (4 pins)
Power out (2 pins)
Sense pins (2 pins)
Hmmm... 16 pins. My guess is that this is exactly what we're seeing in the new connector.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
Maybe you've forgotten what the other end of the Dock Connector cable looks like.
In what context? Of course a Dock-USB cable only carries USB. But docks exist for more devices than just USB/charge cables. Speaker systems, clock/radios, car connectivity, voice recorders and other devices use more than just USB connectivity.
Quote:
But my question is: Why is it a bad thing to ask Apple to use a standard data/power connector. If it works for thousands of other devices of equal complexity, why not Apple?
I've got phones that use micro-USB for charging. And when I want to attach them to an analog audio device, I need to use the headphone jack. So there are two cables, at opposite ends of the device. That's really ugly and inconvenient. I can't just drop any other smartphone into a radio's docking station like I can any iPhone/iPod.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
First of all, could they be using the local host TB controller on the device ...
Somehow, I doubt they're using Thunderbolt. TB is effectively a PCI Express slot with a convenient connector. A device to attach to that would require all the logic of a PCIe expansion card. That's massive overkill and a very expensive addition for something to satisfy an iPod/iPhone's needs. And it would make the device incompatible with PCs and some Macs.
Comments
But then you have the issue of all other cables that you'd connect as well as accessories. Wouldn't be simpler and cheaper to just put the chip in the device and not in each and every cable you sell? Cables do get chips for various reasons but I'm talking about the intelligent management of orchestrating which pins do what when various things are connected.
I think thaat would comes down to marketing because you know the backlash when Apple doesn't include something it just means they are being cheap and nickel and diming the consumer. I'd personally like them to remove that component; I certainly never use mine. Aren't they excluded from iPods and have been for years? I think it's only the iPhone and iPad that have them. Reduce the waste, I say.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
But then you have the issue of all other cables that you'd connect as well as accessories. Wouldn't be simpler and cheaper to just put the chip in the device and not in each and every cable you sell? Cables do get chips for various reasons but I'm talking about the intelligent management of orchestrating which pins do what when various things are connected.
True, however, I was thinking it may be a way to save internal space in the device for more battery. Every little bit helps as we have discussed with the sim tray.
With third party accessories such as docks they already know which way the device is plugged in.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
Or this could be just for charging and they expect us to sync wirelessly. Who knows.
I seriously hope that never happens. think of the poor countries with slow internet connections. Wireless synching is a nightmare there
Originally Posted by imbrucewayne
I seriously hope that never happens. think of the poor countries with slow internet connections. Wireless synching is a nightmare there
Syncing would only be over local Wi-Fi networks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
Syncing would only be over local Wi-Fi networks.
my comment stands. ^_^'
even the wifi is kinda slow in some areas of the world.
But not everyone has WiFI. Even 802.11ac — note the iPhone doesn't even have 802.11n 5GHz or multiple spatial streams — would still be slower than the wired connection. It's great as an alternative but to exclude the other is still many years from being a viable option.
Even yesterday I was in a bit of a hurry and decided to plug it in to speed up the sync instead of waiting for the WiFi sync to happen.
Well. USB can't handle video as such, but there are (pre)standards for getting video out through the micro-USB connector and some Samsung phones has it implemented.
Edit: Apparently noted in the article, but dismissed as clumsy because of some manufacturer-specific implementation reasons.
But you still have the issue of getting, say, HDMI or component video to, say, a TV or projector. I think you still need to have the chip in the cable to convert the signal (which makes each cable more expensive), a chip in the device (which is expensive but only for the device and not each cable setup), or use multiple pins (so the device and cable are less technically complex).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zandros
Well. USB can't handle video as such, but there are (pre)standards for getting video out through the micro-USB connector and some Samsung phones has it implemented.
Edit: Apparently noted in the article, but dismissed as clumsy because of some manufacturer-specific implementation reasons.
Right. Doesn't really sound like a ready-to-go solution, does it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone
I can't tell from those images whether it is keyed (enabling 16 pins) or simply reversable (8 pins)
There appears to be a transceiver chip attached to the connector. So it may well be a non-keyed reversible connector. The chip may be able to detect the orientation (coordinating with something in the device, possibly) and swap the signals around. There's no technical reason why they couldn't do that, but if the chip costs too much, it may adversely affect the price of dock cables/adapters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac_128
Ever notice how PC connectors have the male pins on the device, the female on the cable, so when a cable is inevitably pulled out or the incorrect plug jammed into the port, the pins on the device are broken off requiring a major repair...
Not really. PCs have used both configurations for various kinds of connections and most are female on the device, using male cables:
CGA/EGA/VGA video - male cable, female on PC
DVI video - male cable, female on PC
Serial ports (9- and 25-pin) - female cable, male on PC
Parallel port (25-pin) - male cable, female on PC
Keyboard (old style and PS/2 style) and PS/2 mouse - male cable, female on PC
Game controller - male cable, female on PC
SCSI (not counting adapters using Centronics connectors) - male cable, female on PC
Of course, this doesn't count connectors that don't use the "traditional" concept of pins, like Ethernet, USB, FireWire, DisplayPort, HDMI, etc.
Internal connectors using ribbon cables usually have pins on the motherboard, but that's a completely different situation. Those cables aren't normally inserted and removed very often. They're typically not touched at all after the system is fully assembled.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thataveragejoe
I assume you have actual proof of this, please provide. Also what's something that this 9-pin connector will do that a micro port can't?
The big feature of a Dock connector that USB doesn't support is analog audio in/out. This isn't used when the device is using a USB cable (for syncing/charging) of course, but it is used by all kinds of standalone docks, including those built-in to speaker systems and clock-radios. It is also used by many automotive connection kits including FM transmitters. A dock connector can supply power to external devices (used by the camera connector, for instance.) Finally, there are sense pins that let the device auto-detect certain classes of accessories and to auto-switch audio from the headphone jack to the dock connector
To support current functionality, the dock connector should have:
USB data, power and ground (4 pins)
Stereo audio in (4 pins)
Stereo audio out (4 pins)
Power out (2 pins)
Sense pins (2 pins)
Hmmm... 16 pins. My guess is that this is exactly what we're seeing in the new connector.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
Maybe you've forgotten what the other end of the Dock Connector cable looks like.
In what context? Of course a Dock-USB cable only carries USB. But docks exist for more devices than just USB/charge cables. Speaker systems, clock/radios, car connectivity, voice recorders and other devices use more than just USB connectivity.
Quote:
But my question is: Why is it a bad thing to ask Apple to use a standard data/power connector. If it works for thousands of other devices of equal complexity, why not Apple?
I've got phones that use micro-USB for charging. And when I want to attach them to an analog audio device, I need to use the headphone jack. So there are two cables, at opposite ends of the device. That's really ugly and inconvenient. I can't just drop any other smartphone into a radio's docking station like I can any iPhone/iPod.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
First of all, could they be using the local host TB controller on the device ...
Somehow, I doubt they're using Thunderbolt. TB is effectively a PCI Express slot with a convenient connector. A device to attach to that would require all the logic of a PCIe expansion card. That's massive overkill and a very expensive addition for something to satisfy an iPod/iPhone's needs. And it would make the device incompatible with PCs and some Macs.