Inductive charging would be pretty nice, especially since everything else is already wireless anyway, it would add to the coolness factor which is pretty relevant when it comes to Apple hardware. Cables could still be used, all Apple would have to do would be to leave two metal contacts somewhere on the outer shell of the phone that a case / bumper / whatever could connect to and the problem with USB charging would go away. They could even use more of these contacts to implement a decent dock with all kinds of AV output without requiring an actual port.
Why? Is it any easier to align a device onto a stand than to plug it into a dock? What's the difference (other than the fact that alignment is guaranteed with a dock)?
First comment was how thin the phone is, who cares, it's not a benefit. Make it 1/16 thicker and leave the connector alone, and add battery life, now there's a benefit, not some feature that is of no use.
Both inductive charing and NFC are non-critical features and don't really bring solutions to the table. Maybe if NFC is more secure than a standard CC, then it could be useful, but I'm sure it'll bring it's own negatives to the table as well.
little off topic, but I'm trying to spread the word ...
Merchants eat fraud. CC authorization is not a guarantee, just a requirement.
Stolen CC numbers are used fraudulently for card-not-present transactions. It's not the card or device that is the problem.
Current model has the merchant as agent, takes your number and such, sends it to processor. Then, for recurring transactions, card on file, or refund to same card, merchant has to store (encrypted) card info.
Proper model would be a three party transaction: card holder swipes and card info is encrypted and sent to processor. If approved, processor gives a transaction ticket number to merchant. That ticket is good only for use by that merchant, and only for refunds or if cardholder approved recurring charges at time of authentication / authorization. Merchant can store all that's needed but if it's stolen it's useless.
This is emerging as "tokenization." But the card issuers and processors are dragging their feet on it. You'd think they'd be all for it, but remember they have shifted all the losses to merchants and add more of their fees. So they make money on fraud. Their risk is non-payment of the account.
Presently, security depends on every Ma & Pa retailer to implement 200 pages of extremely technical network, firewall, auditing, and secure IT transaction details which are so complex most experts can't get it all right. It's as if Eisenhower had secured the D-Day plans by telling all the soldiers and disseminating security standards for each of them to follow.
Insane, and it starts with Congress letting the credit card issuers off the hook. They have de-facto police powers to "fine" merchants and now a part of their revenue is the fines and all the licensing fees paid by authorized security auditors and network scanning companies -- 10's of thousands per year from each.
Pure Orwell. I hope Apple is pondering a complete rethink of the payment model.
I used to think NFC was a "must have", especially after using it in Japan, but I'm less enamoured of it's implementation elsewhere. As there are already barcode scanners in virtually every retail establishment I think Passbook will serve us fine for the next year or two, and Apple will build on it's usefulness in the meantime.
Honestly the iPhone 5 is the last iPhone Apple will ever release. December 21st is the end of all things as we know it in this planet. So buy one and enjoy it without NFC because it wont matter. LOL.
So I should probably just put it on my credit card, and leave my cash available for sex and/or drugs?
I don't understand. What does NFC do that is so cool? How will it redefine purchasing?
Do I still have to go to a designated payment point (cashier) to purchase items? Yep. Do I still have to get something out of my pocket to pay for said items? Yep. Is there still some sort of authentication process to determine the payment is coming from a legitimate purchaser? Yep.
Oh look, it changes everything while changing nothing. So I won't have to carry a slim piece of plastic in my pocket anymore, I still have to carry an ID among various other things necessitating a wallet.
And if FirstData or another entity is verifying purchases aren't fraudulent with a plastic card, I'm sure there'll be the same or other entities verifying NFC purchases. And the purchaser will still pay for that verification in the same way.
Like I said, it changes everything without solving any problems!
Please tell me I'm wrong. What am I missing? What is so amazing about NFC or non-contact purchasing?
In my opinion, the Apple Store has already solved this in its own way. Just buy items through a localized website, walk out with items in hand and receipt on screen. Your card number and data can be pre-programed in. Done.
Stop making sense! We'll have none of that tom-foolery here! There is a significant faction out there that clamor for the "latest and greatest" without stopping to think about the actual implementation. Seriously, some people here would head to the local supermarket with just the slightest mention of digital toilet paper!
Honestly the iPhone 5 is the last iPhone Apple will ever release. December 21st is the end of all things as we know it in this planet. So buy one and enjoy it without NFC because it wont matter. LOL.
That's actually false. If you do the math right that's incorrect. Every year we skip seconds on the clock and the earth now rotates 6 seconds faster than it used to because of an earthquake in china. So we would actually be in the year 2013 already if you added the seconds by Dec 21.
Assuming you live in San Francisco (sflocal?), NFC is in every parking meter. It's also in most shops, you just haven't noticed because it is integrated into the payment terminals. Point of sale companies have been successful recently with NFC terminals, because vendors WANT IT. They currently are forced to eat 3% in credit card transaction fees. That's a lot of money. Using Paypal (or whoever) as an intermediary still requires a transaction fee. Vendors are simply not going to go out of their way to support forms of payment that require transaction fees when NFC, which does not, is available and moving along nicely.
That's great...until I leave the city limits. Hope they have NFC terminals out in the rest of the world. Until then, I still have to carry cash, checks, or credit cards. Actually I get it - I can see in the future this will be convenient, but right now it affords me nothing extra. I want it, just not yet.
After rereading your post, I notice that you state NFC transactions do not require a transaction fee. Is this true? I assumed any credit or debit card purchase involved a fee from whoever processes the transaction. That has always been my experience - with the seller covering the fee in most cases - but I wouldn't be able to state this with absolute certainty.
People who are saying they didn't want NFC clearly don't have a clue what possibilities NFC brings. It could allow you to completely get rid of your wallet and pay for everything with your phone. Had Apple implemented it, retailers would have been on board, and all this would have happened within a year. This puts electronic payment back a number of years and puts all the power in Google's hands.
Not including NFC and pushing this technology was a big mistake on Apple's part. Their passbook idea is far too niche and will not take off.
That's great...until I leave the city limits. Hope they have NFC terminals out in the rest of the world.
I can't commit to parking meters, but there are only a few payment terminal manufacturers in the world. All of them are selling NFC-equipped terminals like gangbusters.
Anyway, I don't know why you have a problem with NFC, but I'm sure it's because you don't understand why traditional credit cards need to go. Read the post from VicAustin a few above. NFC transactions are exactly the same as smartcard transactions, which have been proven over the last 15 years. They can be managed in many ways. In situations where the transaction is directly between the bank and the vendor, there is not customarily a transaction fee.
Originally Posted by Hutcho
Not including NFC and pushing this technology was a big mistake on Apple's part. Their passbook idea is far too niche and will not take off.
Passbook is a failure waiting to happen. I suspect the main reason why there's no NFC is because Apple didn't finish their product in time.
Who the heck cares about NFC besides tech-heads and fandroids? In all my travels, I have yet to come across anything that would use it? I see no merchants, stores, vending machines, etc. that has it.
Oh wait, it's only a huge deal to those that simply want it for the sake of having it and having "bragging rights". Jeez.. when there's stuff out there that uses it, then Apple will look into it.
Actually NFC is very useful, it's the US that's ass-backwards about it. The US, because of it's investment in mag-stripe equipment, won't adopt chip+pin or NFC (PayPass) because the old equipment works just fine. It'll be 15 years before all that equipment is turned over.
Meanwhile you can use PayPass pretty much everywhere in Canada. The "killer-app" for NFC on an iPhone or iPad is receiving payments, not making them. This currently can be done by various dongle-type devices and apps in a similar manner that the "Square" works for mag stripes. It's just a lot more expensive to make a chip+pin dongle than it is a NFC one.
If NFC were built into the iPhone and iPad device, you could exchange money wirelessly with anyone, not just shops. You could even cut Visa and Mastercard out of the equation. Unfortunately the incumbant telcos,banks, Visa and Mastercard are too invested in the status quo of fees to allow this to happen. Just look at Paypal or XEtrade, at how difficult it is just to setup, let alone deal with people who may defraud the system.
Try going to a convention in the US and compare it with Canada.
In the US, everyone has Square, and some larger companies have their own credit card machines.
In Canada, nobody can use Square, so you are stuck using cash. Maybe paypal if you're lucky. Yet everyone has PayPass/PayWave credit cards, there's nothing out there like Square to use it on an iPhone or iPad. So Passbook might be a way to cut everyone out of the picture. Use the iOS devices existing camera and a barcode to initiate a transfer.
People who are saying they didn't want NFC clearly don't have a clue what possibilities NFC brings. It could allow you to completely get rid of your wallet and pay for everything with your phone. Had Apple implemented it, retailers would have been on board, and all this would have happened within a year. This puts electronic payment back a number of years and puts all the power in Google's hands.
Not including NFC and pushing this technology was a big mistake on Apple's part. Their passbook idea is far too niche and will not take off.
I'm sure Apple is aware of the possibilities of NFC. I'm also sure they have weighed the matter a lot (and have more capable resources to weigh the matter) and have decided not to include it. As some people here say - Apple will include it when it is a practical and useful solution. Or, to put it another way - when the possibilities are closer to realisation, then Apple will put it in.
Inductive charging would be pretty nice, especially since everything else is already wireless anyway, it would add to the coolness factor which is pretty relevant when it comes to Apple hardware. Cables could still be used, all Apple would have to do would be to leave two metal contacts somewhere on the outer shell of the phone that a case / bumper / whatever could connect to and the problem with USB charging would go away. They could even use more of these contacts to implement a decent dock with all kinds of AV output without requiring an actual port.
Why? Is it any easier to align a device onto a stand than to plug it into a dock? What's the difference (other than the fact that alignment is guaranteed with a dock)?
Yes. Have you used the iPad dock yet? Aligning it with the connector is a PAIN (not to mention that it doesn't work with the Smart Case on and connecting through the Smart Case is another PITA). An inductive charger and accessories with their own USB ports would address both of these issues.
First comment was how thin the phone is, who cares, it's not a benefit. Make it 1/16 thicker and leave the connector alone, and add battery life, now there's a benefit, not some feature that is of no use.
Indeed. Previous iPhone designs never compromised anything; this one compromised a lot.
So the connector you've never used has "no use", despite it being a long time coming and probably crucial to the future of devices.
It only lost Firewire, component video, composite video, two analog audio channels, HDMI, and RS-232 without actually adding any new features... Pretty useful connector right there! -- Sarcasm.
So Apple should have used inductive charging because is "it's cool"? I'm glad Apple is more concerned with practical benefits than coolness factor.
Inductive charging has practical benefits. if everyone started using it, public places such as coffee shops, restaurants, and even public transportation would have really good reasons to deploy inductive charging stations, meaning battery life would become less of an issue. You could even have a general-purpose inductive charging station in your car!
Actually NFC is very useful, it's the US that's ass-backwards about it. The US, because of it's investment in mag-stripe equipment, won't adopt chip+pin or NFC (PayPass) because the old equipment works just fine. It'll be 15 years before all that equipment is turned over.
I agree with Apple on this decision. QR codes are a much more elegant solution as they don't require new hardware. A laptop with a webcam and an Internet connection can serve as a POS, with the only thing needed being a standard protocol that all banks can agree with.
Comments
Why? Is it any easier to align a device onto a stand than to plug it into a dock? What's the difference (other than the fact that alignment is guaranteed with a dock)?
Originally Posted by mrmantle
…not some feature that is of no use.
So the connector you've never used has "no use", despite it being a long time coming and probably crucial to the future of devices.
Both inductive charing and NFC are non-critical features and don't really bring solutions to the table. Maybe if NFC is more secure than a standard CC, then it could be useful, but I'm sure it'll bring it's own negatives to the table as well.
little off topic, but I'm trying to spread the word ...
Merchants eat fraud. CC authorization is not a guarantee, just a requirement.
Stolen CC numbers are used fraudulently for card-not-present transactions. It's not the card or device that is the problem.
Current model has the merchant as agent, takes your number and such, sends it to processor. Then, for recurring transactions, card on file, or refund to same card, merchant has to store (encrypted) card info.
Proper model would be a three party transaction: card holder swipes and card info is encrypted and sent to processor. If approved, processor gives a transaction ticket number to merchant. That ticket is good only for use by that merchant, and only for refunds or if cardholder approved recurring charges at time of authentication / authorization. Merchant can store all that's needed but if it's stolen it's useless.
This is emerging as "tokenization." But the card issuers and processors are dragging their feet on it. You'd think they'd be all for it, but remember they have shifted all the losses to merchants and add more of their fees. So they make money on fraud. Their risk is non-payment of the account.
Presently, security depends on every Ma & Pa retailer to implement 200 pages of extremely technical network, firewall, auditing, and secure IT transaction details which are so complex most experts can't get it all right. It's as if Eisenhower had secured the D-Day plans by telling all the soldiers and disseminating security standards for each of them to follow.
Insane, and it starts with Congress letting the credit card issuers off the hook. They have de-facto police powers to "fine" merchants and now a part of their revenue is the fines and all the licensing fees paid by authorized security auditors and network scanning companies -- 10's of thousands per year from each.
Pure Orwell. I hope Apple is pondering a complete rethink of the payment model.
I used to think NFC was a "must have", especially after using it in Japan, but I'm less enamoured of it's implementation elsewhere. As there are already barcode scanners in virtually every retail establishment I think Passbook will serve us fine for the next year or two, and Apple will build on it's usefulness in the meantime.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tylerk36
Honestly the iPhone 5 is the last iPhone Apple will ever release. December 21st is the end of all things as we know it in this planet. So buy one and enjoy it without NFC because it wont matter. LOL.
That's actually false. If you do the math right that's incorrect. Every year we skip seconds on the clock and the earth now rotates 6 seconds faster than it used to because of an earthquake in china. So we would actually be in the year 2013 already if you added the seconds by Dec 21.
After rereading your post, I notice that you state NFC transactions do not require a transaction fee. Is this true? I assumed any credit or debit card purchase involved a fee from whoever processes the transaction. That has always been my experience - with the seller covering the fee in most cases - but I wouldn't be able to state this with absolute certainty.
Quote:
Originally Posted by John.B
Inductive charging is extremely wasteful. No company legitimately concerned about the environment would embrace it as a core product feature.
PLUS, you run a real danger of ruining all your floppy discs. /s
Not including NFC and pushing this technology was a big mistake on Apple's part. Their passbook idea is far too niche and will not take off.
Quote:
Originally Posted by diplication
That's great...until I leave the city limits. Hope they have NFC terminals out in the rest of the world.
I can't commit to parking meters, but there are only a few payment terminal manufacturers in the world. All of them are selling NFC-equipped terminals like gangbusters.
Anyway, I don't know why you have a problem with NFC, but I'm sure it's because you don't understand why traditional credit cards need to go. Read the post from VicAustin a few above. NFC transactions are exactly the same as smartcard transactions, which have been proven over the last 15 years. They can be managed in many ways. In situations where the transaction is directly between the bank and the vendor, there is not customarily a transaction fee.
Originally Posted by Hutcho
Not including NFC and pushing this technology was a big mistake on Apple's part. Their passbook idea is far too niche and will not take off.
Passbook is a failure waiting to happen. I suspect the main reason why there's no NFC is because Apple didn't finish their product in time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tjw
Why didn't they just use mini-usb?
1. Because Mini (Micro) USB doesn't support USB 3.0
2. Because they can multiplex some of the popular dock pins onto the 9-pin connector. Most dongles use a 2-pin serial connection, for example.
Actually NFC is very useful, it's the US that's ass-backwards about it. The US, because of it's investment in mag-stripe equipment, won't adopt chip+pin or NFC (PayPass) because the old equipment works just fine. It'll be 15 years before all that equipment is turned over.
Meanwhile you can use PayPass pretty much everywhere in Canada. The "killer-app" for NFC on an iPhone or iPad is receiving payments, not making them. This currently can be done by various dongle-type devices and apps in a similar manner that the "Square" works for mag stripes. It's just a lot more expensive to make a chip+pin dongle than it is a NFC one.
If NFC were built into the iPhone and iPad device, you could exchange money wirelessly with anyone, not just shops. You could even cut Visa and Mastercard out of the equation. Unfortunately the incumbant telcos,banks, Visa and Mastercard are too invested in the status quo of fees to allow this to happen. Just look at Paypal or XEtrade, at how difficult it is just to setup, let alone deal with people who may defraud the system.
Try going to a convention in the US and compare it with Canada.
In the US, everyone has Square, and some larger companies have their own credit card machines.
In Canada, nobody can use Square, so you are stuck using cash. Maybe paypal if you're lucky. Yet everyone has PayPass/PayWave credit cards, there's nothing out there like Square to use it on an iPhone or iPad. So Passbook might be a way to cut everyone out of the picture. Use the iOS devices existing camera and a barcode to initiate a transfer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hutcho
People who are saying they didn't want NFC clearly don't have a clue what possibilities NFC brings. It could allow you to completely get rid of your wallet and pay for everything with your phone. Had Apple implemented it, retailers would have been on board, and all this would have happened within a year. This puts electronic payment back a number of years and puts all the power in Google's hands.
Not including NFC and pushing this technology was a big mistake on Apple's part. Their passbook idea is far too niche and will not take off.
I'm sure Apple is aware of the possibilities of NFC. I'm also sure they have weighed the matter a lot (and have more capable resources to weigh the matter) and have decided not to include it. As some people here say - Apple will include it when it is a practical and useful solution. Or, to put it another way - when the possibilities are closer to realisation, then Apple will put it in.
Yes. Have you used the iPad dock yet? Aligning it with the connector is a PAIN (not to mention that it doesn't work with the Smart Case on and connecting through the Smart Case is another PITA). An inductive charger and accessories with their own USB ports would address both of these issues.
Indeed. Previous iPhone designs never compromised anything; this one compromised a lot.
It only lost Firewire, component video, composite video, two analog audio channels, HDMI, and RS-232 without actually adding any new features... Pretty useful connector right there! -- Sarcasm.
Inductive charging has practical benefits. if everyone started using it, public places such as coffee shops, restaurants, and even public transportation would have really good reasons to deploy inductive charging stations, meaning battery life would become less of an issue. You could even have a general-purpose inductive charging station in your car!
I agree with Apple on this decision. QR codes are a much more elegant solution as they don't require new hardware. A laptop with a webcam and an Internet connection can serve as a POS, with the only thing needed being a standard protocol that all banks can agree with.