Since Apple partnered with TomTom, among others, on this, it's a mystery why it isn't much better. Shhhhh!!! Maybe TomTom didn't want real competition for their own iPhone app!
A voice of reason...... But it's not attention grabbing. Common sense is not always common..
This is not simply a case of missing features or data. Maps is *broken*.
When I try any old random address in OpenStreetMap, it finds it fine and has a proper map. The majority of those same searches fail in Maps. Maps is supposed to be based on OSM, but it seems they have seriously screwed it up.
Here;s a simple case. Look for Bowmanville Ontario. In OSM you get Bowmanville. In Maps you get Clarington.
Look for Cobalt Ontario. In OSM you don't really get anything, but the pointer is in the correct location near Haileybury and New Liskeard. In Maps Cobalt DOES show up, but neither of the other two towns does.
Now try Bancroft Ontario. In OSM you get Bancroft. In Maps you get a field in the middle of nowhere.
Gathering user generated data is how you perfect a mapping application, and I think Apple made the correct choice to do it now rather than later. People who claim Apple could have done this 'in-house" are out of touch with reality - Thus the notion of waiting to release it until it was "perfect' is just foolish.
Like all hard decisions, Apple will take this one on the chin, and in the end, a more capable and user-friend app will emerge.
I think Apple has no choice. Google is not adding new features to Google Maps on iOS since iOS 1.0. The so-called Stree View or Public Transit has never been available on iOS.
Personally, if I didn't like something, I wouldn't buy it. I suggest you Google boys do the same. I think it's great that Apple's doing their own map. I really like the new look and it works great for me (and really fast). My only gripe is, I wish the maps were stored locally (or will they be?). I've used the old maps extensively over the past 5 years and have always complained about its slowness. The new maps is incredibly fast. The map data isn't comprehensive and it's not 100% accurate. If it's not working well in your area, there are plenty of alternatives. No one's forcing you to buy an iphone or use Apple's maps.
I also like the new youtube app much better. Those who wanna use google maps, I'm sure there'll be a standalone app for it. Google doesn't want to miss out on the iOS market.
It's not a silly argument. The opposite of his argument is that you should never attempt to replace the "industry standard" unless you already surpass it. Google Maps certainly didn't surpass Mapquest or paper maps when they first released it. It only developed to where it is now, with lot's of incorrect information and still a few glaring errors after years of user feedback. But, according to the logic of, "That is a terribly silly argument," they should never have released Google Maps, after all, they were years behind the competition when they did. (And the, "it's not 2007," argument is just a variation on the preceding.)
"One more area where Apple maps are screwed, google maps knows everything that google search knows, they share the same database. While apple maps is connected to crappy yelp search, google maps is powered by google search. So when google maps knows that x building that use to be "casa bonita" is now "petes deli" its because Google maps crawls website just like google search does. That in combination of google places is why no one beats google on updated business listings. "
I can't even tell you how many times something pops right up in google search but the maps app doesn't find a damn thing...
But we are not talking about perfection here, we are talking about putting towns in the wrong spot and missing half of cities and being unusable in many parts outside the U.S.
Which is exactly. What Google did. When they launched. Their mapping service. You can't hold them to separate standards.
Originally Posted by Sierrajeff
Setting aside the fact that I don't think I should have to be Apple's free cartographer
Oh, and you don't, certainly. You can wait for someone else to do it and have it take longer, but perhaps be more accurate than we ourselves could have done. We just now have the option of doing it ourselves.
Originally Posted by Mazda 3s
What online solution was there before Google Maps? MapQuest or something rinkydink like that? The tech world moves a lot faster these days and there's a lot more competition compared to 2005
Your point being what? I'm comparing Apple's shortcomings to Google's shortcomings, and they were the same in comparison. Towns were missing. Locations were wrong. Roads existed that didn't. They'll all get fixed.
This isn't something like Siri. There was nothing on the iPhone comparable to Siri beforehand, so people are more forgiving.
There was Siri. We still hear about its reduced functionality from standalone.
Originally Posted by tzeshan
I think Apple has no choice. Google is not adding new features to Google Maps on iOS since iOS 1.0. The so-called Stree View or Public Transit has never been available on iOS.
See? Depending on where you live, you never had Street View in the first place. Google must be an utter failure, unworthy of even mentioning, if after six years they can't… oh, what's that? They're always adding new stuff? Oh. So Apple can't do that. I see.
Originally Posted by anonymouse
What if the alternative was ads in your face whenever you wanted to use maps.
That IS the alternative, and it's what all the complainers here will see when they download their savior, Google Maps Standalone.
So, now, everyone considers Google Maps the "industry standard", despite the fact that it is still imperfect, mainly because it's what they've gotten used to using. According to the, "That is a terribly silly argument," logic, no one should ever try to produce another mapping service unless, on the first day of it's release it's better than Google Maps in all respects. An impossible task in mapping, so everyone should just give up.
The problem with this line of reasoning is that Apple removed the Map app that users preferred. No one would argue that Apple shouldn't produce their own mapping service if they feel they can do something better or different than current offerings but to eliminate the competition by virtue of 'it's my football and we play by my rules' attitude is a problem. Google Maps should be an option, at least in the interim. Apple can't possibly be so blinded by their own ego to think that their new Maps app is even close to being as full featured and comprehensive as Google Maps was.
Also, for those of you still with 5.1 go ahead and open your maps app and take it over to Arlington, TX. Then search for "Rooms to go" (ya know, one of the largest furniture chains in the country) and see what happens. Google doesn't give you a damn thing even though there are 7 in DFW and 1 specifically in Arlington (http://roomstogo.com/storelocator/stores.jsp?zipcode=76011&r=R&lat=32.7542&long=-97.0824&_requestid=711700)
Yeah, that same google maps that everyone seems to think is the gold standard.
You gotta remember when Google Maps came out we had nothing to compare it to and as years went on it got better, I think it's unfair to think that Apple could overnight come out with a Map app that has taken Google years to get to.
Then if they can't make something better, it's not worth doing. Until they *can*. This is more of Apple's classic mantra - what we keep hearing when they're questioned about why they entered the tablet market, for instance - that got left by the wayside with what is essentially a core point of functionality in any modern mobile OS.
I mostly agree with your comments and posts on AI!
But here, I disagree.
Anything worth doing, is worth doing... even if that means doing it badly.
In a "game" that involves experience [usage] and catching up with the leader -- the sooner you enter the "game" the better! Apple is likely 1-2 years behind Google in mobile mapping data (just the map data, not street view, traffic, Public Trans or 3D).
If Apple were to wait a year -- they would still be 1-2 years behind... maybe even more.
Apple's acquisitions for mapping have a lot more potential than just a mobile maps app -- PlaceBase * and the PushPin * API do [did] things that Google Maps cannot do; Apples 3D is superior in speed and rendering over Google 3D. Entry into the mobile map market will allow to refine the mobile offering as well as these additional, unreleased, capabilities.
* Search for these terms and you will find some writeups on some pretty amazing interactive mapping capabilities. Unfortunately the articles reference demo web sites that are no longer available.
Basically, you had a base (zoomable, pannable, terrain, etc.) maps layer and overlays... Through a simple scripting API you could overlay almost anything on a map (age, median income, years of college, other census data, political data, adult book stores...). And you could interactively change/combine the overlays.
Just checking out Maps for Ottawa, Canada, I like:
1. the "neighbourhood" names inside the city - Google didn't do this right 2. the unilingual English street names instead of the mishmash of English and French names used by Google. 3. The use of real street names instead of the alternate, and seldom used, county road names or provincial highway names for streets. Apple does put highway number shields occasionally without obscuring the street names. 4. Avoiding the bizarre French naming of streets such as "promenade de la cote de neige " where you have to plow through the long preamble before learning whether it is "neige" or "liesse" or "sainte catherine".
But it is unfortunate that some restaurants are on the wrong side of the street or further down the street than they are actually. Also few of the restaurants on our Elgin St strip are listed and at least one defunct one is listed. I am sure this will get cleaned up with time. I wonder how these things are updated? I it not streamed in from an up-to-date server map?
The problem is that people are having trouble with maps just to go from point A to point B. I would love to see Apple make their maps better, I just think it will be very difficult for them to match google, if possible. One thing that I don't like at the moment is that when I look for, say, a restaurant, the few results that are shown are not updated as I move the map. I have to relaunch the search to update it when looking at another district.
The problem with this line of reasoning is that Apple removed the Map app that users preferred. No one would argue that Apple should produce their own mapping service if they fell they can do something better or different than current offerings but to eliminate the competition by virtue of 'it's my football and we play by my rules' attitude is a problem. Google Maps should be an option, at least in the interim. Apple can't possibly be so blinded by their own ego to think that their new Maps app is even close to being as full featured and comprehensive as Google Maps was.
Silly argument. How can you say I preferred google maps? How many other mapping systems are out there outside of google maps that people use on a daily basis(there are over 13,000 on the app store alone)? Apple hasn't elminated the competition. Google is free to produce their own mapping application. Ego? You don't think Apple knows this is their first iteration of maps?
Gathering user generated data is how you perfect a mapping application, and I think Apple made the correct choice to do it now rather than later. People who claim Apple could have done this 'in-house" are out of touch with reality - Thus the notion of waiting to release it until it was "perfect' is just foolish.
Like all hard decisions, Apple will take this one on the chin, and in the end, a more capable and user-friend app will emerge.
Absolutely correct. You can't build a better map without first releasing a map to improve. Data will be built upon as people use it.
Many people here have way too high expectations of what is achievable and how it can be achieved.
MAPGATE! I actually find the turn by turn in my area an excellent feature but the satellite views and accuracy in some places looks really bad especially compared with Google's maps. Apple should have focused on the accuracy and information in their maps rather than a gee-whiz 3d flyby mode that only works in few cities in the world so far.
Im very impressed of how far Apple have manage to take their maps application. I had big doubts about them managing brining anything remotely interesting/competitive against Google, but i think they actually did, in any way, its a damn good start! In Stockholm at the moment and compared to Google's service, the satellite quality is a bit worse, but im not surprised, Google's quality for stockholm is terrible to start with :P
SO, they gave me turn-by-turn navigation, yelp integration (to start), vector maps, and much faster response/loading times for the price of giving up some satellite quality, i think i can live with that... What i can't live with, its the terrible search engine!! Done a few searches and usually messes it up someone (example: confusing new bond st. with bond st. in stratford, who the hell would want directions to that bond st.jQuery18106232018559239805_1348162511036 or that its placing the pin a block or two away from the actual location isn't unusual..) Anyways keep up the good job Apple, I can't wait until i can actually use the bloody thing...
It's not a silly argument. The opposite of his argument is that you should never attempt to replace the "industry standard" unless you already surpass it.
Or unless you have no choice.
Google did not renew the contract. So Apple had a choice:
a. Do nothing and leave their phone without a map app (unless Google decides to make one - and it would undoubtedly be cluttered with ads and keep track of everywhere you ever went)
or
b. Make the best map app they could within the time available and then commit to making it better.
Apple chose the latter. Would you really rather have had them choose 'a'?
It's not perfect, but neither was Google (or my car navigation system or my Garmin, for that matter). It's not a terrible app and it's certainly miles ahead of no app - which would have been the alternative.
Comments
Since Apple partnered with TomTom, among others, on this, it's a mystery why it isn't much better. Shhhhh!!! Maybe TomTom didn't want real competition for their own iPhone app!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jahblade
A voice of reason...... But it's not attention grabbing. Common sense is not always common..
This is not simply a case of missing features or data. Maps is *broken*.
When I try any old random address in OpenStreetMap, it finds it fine and has a proper map. The majority of those same searches fail in Maps. Maps is supposed to be based on OSM, but it seems they have seriously screwed it up.
Here;s a simple case. Look for Bowmanville Ontario. In OSM you get Bowmanville. In Maps you get Clarington.
Look for Cobalt Ontario. In OSM you don't really get anything, but the pointer is in the correct location near Haileybury and New Liskeard. In Maps Cobalt DOES show up, but neither of the other two towns does.
Now try Bancroft Ontario. In OSM you get Bancroft. In Maps you get a field in the middle of nowhere.
This is not *bad*, it's *broken*
Gathering user generated data is how you perfect a mapping application, and I think Apple made the correct choice to do it now rather than later. People who claim Apple could have done this 'in-house" are out of touch with reality - Thus the notion of waiting to release it until it was "perfect' is just foolish.
Like all hard decisions, Apple will take this one on the chin, and in the end, a more capable and user-friend app will emerge.
Wait, what?
Personally, if I didn't like something, I wouldn't buy it. I suggest you Google boys do the same. I think it's great that Apple's doing their own map. I really like the new look and it works great for me (and really fast). My only gripe is, I wish the maps were stored locally (or will they be?). I've used the old maps extensively over the past 5 years and have always complained about its slowness. The new maps is incredibly fast. The map data isn't comprehensive and it's not 100% accurate. If it's not working well in your area, there are plenty of alternatives. No one's forcing you to buy an iphone or use Apple's maps.
I also like the new youtube app much better. Those who wanna use google maps, I'm sure there'll be a standalone app for it. Google doesn't want to miss out on the iOS market.
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse
It's not a silly argument. The opposite of his argument is that you should never attempt to replace the "industry standard" unless you already surpass it. Google Maps certainly didn't surpass Mapquest or paper maps when they first released it. It only developed to where it is now, with lot's of incorrect information and still a few glaring errors after years of user feedback. But, according to the logic of, "That is a terribly silly argument," they should never have released Google Maps, after all, they were years behind the competition when they did. (And the, "it's not 2007," argument is just a variation on the preceding.)
Preach on, brother!
This can't be true...
Quote:
"One more area where Apple maps are screwed, google maps knows everything that google search knows, they share the same database. While apple maps is connected to crappy yelp search, google maps is powered by google search. So when google maps knows that x building that use to be "casa bonita" is now "petes deli" its because Google maps crawls website just like google search does. That in combination of google places is why no one beats google on updated business listings. "
I can't even tell you how many times something pops right up in google search but the maps app doesn't find a damn thing...
Originally Posted by Techstalker
But we are not talking about perfection here, we are talking about putting towns in the wrong spot and missing half of cities and being unusable in many parts outside the U.S.
Which is exactly. What Google did. When they launched. Their mapping service. You can't hold them to separate standards.
Originally Posted by Sierrajeff
Setting aside the fact that I don't think I should have to be Apple's free cartographer
Oh, and you don't, certainly. You can wait for someone else to do it and have it take longer, but perhaps be more accurate than we ourselves could have done. We just now have the option of doing it ourselves.
Originally Posted by Mazda 3s
What online solution was there before Google Maps? MapQuest or something rinkydink like that? The tech world moves a lot faster these days and there's a lot more competition compared to 2005
Your point being what? I'm comparing Apple's shortcomings to Google's shortcomings, and they were the same in comparison. Towns were missing. Locations were wrong. Roads existed that didn't. They'll all get fixed.
This isn't something like Siri. There was nothing on the iPhone comparable to Siri beforehand, so people are more forgiving.
There was Siri. We still hear about its reduced functionality from standalone.
Originally Posted by tzeshan
I think Apple has no choice. Google is not adding new features to Google Maps on iOS since iOS 1.0. The so-called Stree View or Public Transit has never been available on iOS.
See? Depending on where you live, you never had Street View in the first place. Google must be an utter failure, unworthy of even mentioning, if after six years they can't… oh, what's that? They're always adding new stuff? Oh. So Apple can't do that. I see.
Originally Posted by anonymouse
What if the alternative was ads in your face whenever you wanted to use maps.
That IS the alternative, and it's what all the complainers here will see when they download their savior, Google Maps Standalone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mazda 3s
Wait, what?
I have iPhone 4 running iOS 5.1.1
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse
So, now, everyone considers Google Maps the "industry standard", despite the fact that it is still imperfect, mainly because it's what they've gotten used to using. According to the, "That is a terribly silly argument," logic, no one should ever try to produce another mapping service unless, on the first day of it's release it's better than Google Maps in all respects. An impossible task in mapping, so everyone should just give up.
The problem with this line of reasoning is that Apple removed the Map app that users preferred. No one would argue that Apple shouldn't produce their own mapping service if they feel they can do something better or different than current offerings but to eliminate the competition by virtue of 'it's my football and we play by my rules' attitude is a problem. Google Maps should be an option, at least in the interim. Apple can't possibly be so blinded by their own ego to think that their new Maps app is even close to being as full featured and comprehensive as Google Maps was.
Was that pic taken on 12/21/12?
Also, for those of you still with 5.1 go ahead and open your maps app and take it over to Arlington, TX. Then search for "Rooms to go" (ya know, one of the largest furniture chains in the country) and see what happens. Google doesn't give you a damn thing even though there are 7 in DFW and 1 specifically in Arlington (http://roomstogo.com/storelocator/stores.jsp?zipcode=76011&r=R&lat=32.7542&long=-97.0824&_requestid=711700)
Yeah, that same google maps that everyone seems to think is the gold standard.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadra 610
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69
You gotta remember when Google Maps came out we had nothing to compare it to and as years went on it got better, I think it's unfair to think that Apple could overnight come out with a Map app that has taken Google years to get to.
Then if they can't make something better, it's not worth doing. Until they *can*. This is more of Apple's classic mantra - what we keep hearing when they're questioned about why they entered the tablet market, for instance - that got left by the wayside with what is essentially a core point of functionality in any modern mobile OS.
I mostly agree with your comments and posts on AI!
But here, I disagree.
Anything worth doing, is worth doing... even if that means doing it badly.
In a "game" that involves experience [usage] and catching up with the leader -- the sooner you enter the "game" the better! Apple is likely 1-2 years behind Google in mobile mapping data (just the map data, not street view, traffic, Public Trans or 3D).
If Apple were to wait a year -- they would still be 1-2 years behind... maybe even more.
Apple's acquisitions for mapping have a lot more potential than just a mobile maps app -- PlaceBase * and the PushPin * API do [did] things that Google Maps cannot do; Apples 3D is superior in speed and rendering over Google 3D. Entry into the mobile map market will allow to refine the mobile offering as well as these additional, unreleased, capabilities.
* Search for these terms and you will find some writeups on some pretty amazing interactive mapping capabilities. Unfortunately the articles reference demo web sites that are no longer available.
Basically, you had a base (zoomable, pannable, terrain, etc.) maps layer and overlays... Through a simple scripting API you could overlay almost anything on a map (age, median income, years of college, other census data, political data, adult book stores...). And you could interactively change/combine the overlays.
1. the "neighbourhood" names inside the city - Google didn't do this right
2. the unilingual English street names instead of the mishmash of English and French names used by Google.
3. The use of real street names instead of the alternate, and seldom used, county road names or provincial highway names for streets. Apple does put highway number shields occasionally without obscuring the street names.
4. Avoiding the bizarre French naming of streets such as "promenade de la cote de neige " where you have to plow through the long preamble before learning whether it is "neige" or "liesse" or "sainte catherine".
But it is unfortunate that some restaurants are on the wrong side of the street or further down the street than they are actually. Also few of the restaurants on our Elgin St strip are listed and at least one defunct one is listed. I am sure this will get cleaned up with time. I wonder how these things are updated? I it not streamed in from an up-to-date server map?
One thing that I don't like at the moment is that when I look for, say, a restaurant, the few results that are shown are not updated as I move the map. I have to relaunch the search to update it when looking at another district.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone
The problem with this line of reasoning is that Apple removed the Map app that users preferred. No one would argue that Apple should produce their own mapping service if they fell they can do something better or different than current offerings but to eliminate the competition by virtue of 'it's my football and we play by my rules' attitude is a problem. Google Maps should be an option, at least in the interim. Apple can't possibly be so blinded by their own ego to think that their new Maps app is even close to being as full featured and comprehensive as Google Maps was.
Silly argument. How can you say I preferred google maps? How many other mapping systems are out there outside of google maps that people use on a daily basis(there are over 13,000 on the app store alone)? Apple hasn't elminated the competition. Google is free to produce their own mapping application. Ego? You don't think Apple knows this is their first iteration of maps?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Postulant
Gathering user generated data is how you perfect a mapping application, and I think Apple made the correct choice to do it now rather than later. People who claim Apple could have done this 'in-house" are out of touch with reality - Thus the notion of waiting to release it until it was "perfect' is just foolish.
Like all hard decisions, Apple will take this one on the chin, and in the end, a more capable and user-friend app will emerge.
Absolutely correct. You can't build a better map without first releasing a map to improve. Data will be built upon as people use it.
Many people here have way too high expectations of what is achievable and how it can be achieved.
MAPGATE! I actually find the turn by turn in my area an excellent feature but the satellite views and accuracy in some places looks really bad especially compared with Google's maps. Apple should have focused on the accuracy and information in their maps rather than a gee-whiz 3d flyby mode that only works in few cities in the world so far.
SO, they gave me turn-by-turn navigation, yelp integration (to start), vector maps, and much faster response/loading times for the price of giving up some satellite quality, i think i can live with that... What i can't live with, its the terrible search engine!!
Done a few searches and usually messes it up someone (example: confusing new bond st. with bond st. in stratford, who the hell would want directions to that bond st.jQuery18106232018559239805_1348162511036 or that its placing the pin a block or two away from the actual location isn't unusual..)
Anyways keep up the good job Apple, I can't wait until i can actually use the bloody thing...
Or unless you have no choice.
Google did not renew the contract. So Apple had a choice:
a. Do nothing and leave their phone without a map app (unless Google decides to make one - and it would undoubtedly be cluttered with ads and keep track of everywhere you ever went)
or
b. Make the best map app they could within the time available and then commit to making it better.
Apple chose the latter. Would you really rather have had them choose 'a'?
It's not perfect, but neither was Google (or my car navigation system or my Garmin, for that matter). It's not a terrible app and it's certainly miles ahead of no app - which would have been the alternative.