The ability to connect any Bluetooth keyboard available is "doesn't offer an easy keyboard solution"?
Why, why, WHY do I let myself get sucked into your arguments over details that completely (and deliberately) ignore the POINT? Why don't I just ignore you?
Try this... the Surface offers a more "elegant" keyboard solution. Is that better?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
So which is it? You want a keyboard or you don't?
For some things, yes. For other things, no. That's why the idea of a keyboard that travels effortlessly with the device but gets out of the way when not needed is appealing. But of course you understand that. You're just ignoring the real point in order to make points with a pointless point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
Laptops shouldn't have touchscreens. Not under the definition of what we think is a "laptop" right now, at least.
Okay, I know I'll regret it later, but I'll bite: WHY shouldn't laptops have touchscreens?
We can only guess but it is certainly not made of anything that is perfectly stable like glass or metal. Perhaps some sort of artificial fibre reinforced resin by the look of it. Whatever it is it appears to have no edge finish, probably in order to maintain the 'surface' profile. It looks like it will be subject to warping and fraying.
Also note that there are two keyboards, one with no tactile keys for $100 and one with tactile keys for $130. Due to the small price difference and due to the obvious fact that some sort of feedback is a must on anything that is not a purely software keyboard, then it can safely be assumed that the standard $100 keyboard, which is what most users will opt for is probably going to be an unmitigated disaster.
Okay, so I take my iPad to the Legion hall with a pitch for a new sound system on it. They have a nice big screen projector there which will make it easy for everyone to see it. Oh wait, they don't have an Apple TV so no AirPlay. Hm, how will get the video out of the iPad and onto their big screen? Oh yeah! That CABLE you were so quick to dismiss!
I think it's awesome that you occupy a space in the computing continuum that makes ports "useless" to you. You may note, however, that a great many of us use our computers for more than chatting, whacking off and turning our brains into porridge with so-called "games." We ingest, spit out, collaborate, make, modify and mutate huge, hairy HEAPS of media that requires really a lot of connecting goezouttas into goezintas. Huge, fast storage devices, input devices, specialized output devices, older-than-built-just-this-afternoon legacy devices and just-ain't-ever-gonna-adopt-the-wireless-protocol-du-jour devices are all part of the daily regimen. We therefore celebrate and cherish our ports.
Like the guy said, You really have a laptop-wired brain focus.
The Apple TV is very tiny and a no-brainer to hook up; so bring your own to use with your iPad and Airplay away. You'll look a lot more audience interactive facing them with an iPad not drooping with cables.
If you celebrate and cherish your ports, then such a highly portable device as an iPad doesn't make sense because wires tie such a device down and defeat its best feature. If you think of media crunching as a desktop and laptop function where cables are important; then the tablets become the opposite where media presentation and portability are paramount.
They started a $100 cheaper, and will easily drop more when supply outgrows demand. There will also be Lenovo, HP, Acer, Asus, Dell... RT tablets, covering different price levels and build quality. MS doesn't want to be Apple, otherwise they'd keep RT for themselves. What MS wants - in my opinion - is to set standards in terms of pricing, specs and quality, in order to prevent greedy OEMs to try overpricing crappy products and tarnish RT platform in the long run.
Like I said, I do believe MS should have included keyboard cover in initial pricing, but they can always bundle it in a month-or-so time (Christmas special?), effectively forcing OEMs to adjust pricing of their models as well.
Apple has pretty fat gross margins, so it should be possible to undercut the iPad. Microsoft wants to be Apple, so seems to be also selling this thing with pretty cushy margins.
Apple's gross margins are fat because of their scale of purchasing. This allows Apple to sell product at prices barely above the competitors costs. Interestingly enough it was the iPod successes that got Apple to the power house component buyer they are today. There's far less room to maneuver under the Apple-set retail price point than you realize.
Like the guy said, You really have a laptop-wired brain focus.
Actually, probably more of a laptop-wired to-do list, but I get your point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macky the Macky
The Apple TV is very tiny and a no-brainer to hook up; so bring your own to use with your iPad and Airplay away.
Way ahead o'ya. The one time I tried it, finding power for the ATV turned out to be an issue. It was also slightly more hassle to carry around than a long HDMI cable (not enough hassle to be a deal breaker, but still, more). It's a great idea and should work fine in most scenarios, but in practice Murphy is often an unforgiving sunofabitch and it's just safer to go with the KISS principle.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macky the Macky
Use the right tool for the different jobs.
I'm with you. My point is that the Surface may be a first step in bringing the two disparate device paradigms closer together. If it does, I would consider it a good thing (in a general, Martha Stewart kinda way).
We can only guess but it is certainly not made of anything that is perfectly stable like glass or metal. Perhaps some sort of artificial fibre reinforced resin by the look of it. Whatever it is it appears to have no edge finish, probably in order to maintain the 'surface' profile. It looks like it will be subject to warping and fraying.
Also note that there are two keyboards, one with no tactile keys for $100 and one with tactile keys for $130. Due to the small price difference and due to the obvious fact that some sort of feedback is a must on anything that is not a purely software keyboard, then it can safely be assumed that the standard $100 keyboard, which is what most users will opt for is probably going to be an unmitigated disaster.
the keyboard material seems to be perfectly designed to catch pet hair. You may need to schedule appointments with MS to have it cut and groomed regularly.
RT. That's all you can buy atm. Pro version (Win 8) arrives in three months.
Three months...what does that figure out to be in techno-years?? This is important since RIMM will ship the BB10 in March 2013 and in techno-years that's just shortly before the last star in the universe flickers out...
...because when you try to squash gnats on your laptop screen and it's touch sensitive you can cause all kinds of data loss or changes.
Users generally don't want to be raising their hands up to poke the screen when it's far easier to do the same thing more conventionally.
Agreed. HOWEVER...
This came up in the context of how a Surface begins to bridge the gap between tablet and laptop. If we envision an evolution towards something that integrates the advantages of both, a touchscreen makes sense because we're talking about something that offers a keyboard when you need or want it, but not when you don't. When you don't, you use the touchscreen.
Since we're talking about small devices, both screen and keyboard real-estate are limited. It's harder to work in something as versatile and easily used as an Apple trackpad. Having to choose between a limiting pointing device or reaching up may make a user more willing to forgive some ergonomic not-so-niceties.
It's also just one more choice for the user. I use both trackpad and mouse, as each is better at some things than the other. A touchscreen just adds one more option the user can incorporate or ignore according to their preference. Don't like it? Don't use it.
Think of the last vertical touchscreen you not only enjoyed using for extended periods, but saw any reason to use whatsoever.
Never have. Can't think of many situations in which I would (though I'm *SURE* there have been a few times in recent months that I've thought "That would be easier if I could just touch the screen with my finger" but I now can't think of a single example. Either they were lousy examples or my memory is getting REALLY bad. Or both.).
But now imagine we're talking about a device like... I dunno, the 11" Air, except that somehow you can fold the keyboard away and use it like an iPad. Now you have an application for a laptop with a touchscreen.
Never have. Can't think of many situations in which I would (though I'm *SURE* there have been a few times in recent months that I've thought "That would be easier if I could just touch the screen with my finger" but I now can't think of a single example. Either they were lousy examples or my memory is getting REALLY bad. Or both.).
But now imagine we're talking about a device like... I dunno, the 11" Air, except that somehow you can fold the keyboard away and use it like an iPad. Now you have an application for a laptop with a touchscreen.
For people like you who keep insisting that touch screen laptops with foldaway keyboards are the ultimate thing... Where were you people when manufacturers where trying to get people to buy Windows convertible tablet / laptops for the past decade? And why lust after the shiny new old thing when the shiny old old thing wasn't worth buying?
"when supply outgrows demand"? I see you are an optimist about MS' chances. Otherwise, interesting thoughts.
You'll notice I said "when", not "if". I think that makes me realist more than optimist. There is always spike of interest for new product, ant there is often shortage before production and supply chains sort themselves out and enough units end up on shelves.
That being said. We are receiving above average interest from our larger corporate users for both RT and WP8. We are not incouraging nor discouraging them at the moment, but we will definitely trial them when available here in NZ, and if there are advantages over iOS and Android options, we will be pushing them to customers. Realistically, this is most likely way for MS to gather some ground.
Also I note in the original ad that the main guy, pulls the Surface pad out of his briefcase to use it, then decides that he'd like to type something so he dives back into his briefcase to get the keyboard cover. But if the keyboard is a cover, then why is it not already on the pad? WTF is the point of having an uncovered pad and the cover separately stored in your briefcase? Same seems to go for the bench guys.
What is the message here?
Also I see that one extremely übercool feature of this tablet is the ability to exchange keyboards with your mates. But why? is it some form of primitive Windows bonding ritual.
I can hardly wait for the release day, this item is going to get absolutely zuned.
That being said. We are receiving above average interest from our larger corporate users for both RT and WP8.
Interesting. Perhaps there may some regional differences, but in the USA the interest in trying out the Win 9 pre-release OS is only 1/5 of the interest in Win 7 when it was in its pre-release period. This little factoid has been a reliable indicator of the possible adoption rate of a MS OS.
Many of the largest corporation are either staying with XP or are only now adopting Win 7. But, for the first time ever, some products like the Win 8 phones and faplets will not be backward compatible to earlier versions of MS OS. This means that regardless of whether end user buys MS branded hardware or some other brand, the user will be operating within a mixed OS house.
Now normally it would be easy to just pick Win 8 and go... but years and years have passed since Apple and then Android OEMs have been integrated into large company's IT efforts. These other choices have proven themselves with IT. A lot of eyes have been opened that were long closed, and MS may be shocked at what new attitudes their absence has awoken into being.
“We must learn to reawaken and keep ourselves awake...”
Well I think it looks nice. Admittedly no reviews yet, but my biggest issue with ordering one is for some reason all the colours aren't available yet! I don't want a black cover.
...because when you try to squash gnats on your laptop screen and it's touch sensitive you can cause all kinds of data loss or changes.
Users generally don't want to be raising their hands up to poke the screen when it's far easier to do the same thing more conventionally.
Is it? When I'm sitting on the sofa with my laptop on top of me, trying to use the trackpad can be a real pain as its right next to my body. Being able to touch the screen would be far far far easier.
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilution
I'll wait until the firesale in January.
For real savings on Surface Faptops watch the garage sales in the spring.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
The ability to connect any Bluetooth keyboard available is "doesn't offer an easy keyboard solution"?
Why, why, WHY do I let myself get sucked into your arguments over details that completely (and deliberately) ignore the POINT? Why don't I just ignore you?
Try this... the Surface offers a more "elegant" keyboard solution. Is that better?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
So which is it? You want a keyboard or you don't?
For some things, yes. For other things, no. That's why the idea of a keyboard that travels effortlessly with the device but gets out of the way when not needed is appealing. But of course you understand that. You're just ignoring the real point in order to make points with a pointless point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
Laptops shouldn't have touchscreens. Not under the definition of what we think is a "laptop" right now, at least.
Okay, I know I'll regret it later, but I'll bite: WHY shouldn't laptops have touchscreens?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
Out of what is the cover made, anyway?
We can only guess but it is certainly not made of anything that is perfectly stable like glass or metal. Perhaps some sort of artificial fibre reinforced resin by the look of it. Whatever it is it appears to have no edge finish, probably in order to maintain the 'surface' profile. It looks like it will be subject to warping and fraying.
Also note that there are two keyboards, one with no tactile keys for $100 and one with tactile keys for $130. Due to the small price difference and due to the obvious fact that some sort of feedback is a must on anything that is not a purely software keyboard, then it can safely be assumed that the standard $100 keyboard, which is what most users will opt for is probably going to be an unmitigated disaster.
Originally Posted by v5v
…the Surface offers a more "elegant" keyboard solution.
Okay, that's an opinion. Mine is that it doesn't.
Okay, I know I'll regret it later, but I'll bite: WHY shouldn't laptops have touchscreens?
Think of the last vertical touchscreen you not only enjoyed using for extended periods, but saw any reason to use whatsoever.
That's why.
Quote:
Originally Posted by v5v
Okay, so I take my iPad to the Legion hall with a pitch for a new sound system on it. They have a nice big screen projector there which will make it easy for everyone to see it. Oh wait, they don't have an Apple TV so no AirPlay. Hm, how will get the video out of the iPad and onto their big screen? Oh yeah! That CABLE you were so quick to dismiss!
I think it's awesome that you occupy a space in the computing continuum that makes ports "useless" to you. You may note, however, that a great many of us use our computers for more than chatting, whacking off and turning our brains into porridge with so-called "games." We ingest, spit out, collaborate, make, modify and mutate huge, hairy HEAPS of media that requires really a lot of connecting goezouttas into goezintas. Huge, fast storage devices, input devices, specialized output devices, older-than-built-just-this-afternoon legacy devices and just-ain't-ever-gonna-adopt-the-wireless-protocol-du-jour devices are all part of the daily regimen. We therefore celebrate and cherish our ports.
Like the guy said, You really have a laptop-wired brain focus.
The Apple TV is very tiny and a no-brainer to hook up; so bring your own to use with your iPad and Airplay away. You'll look a lot more audience interactive facing them with an iPad not drooping with cables.
If you celebrate and cherish your ports, then such a highly portable device as an iPad doesn't make sense because wires tie such a device down and defeat its best feature. If you think of media crunching as a desktop and laptop function where cables are important; then the tablets become the opposite where media presentation and portability are paramount.
Use the right tool for the different jobs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133
They started a $100 cheaper, and will easily drop more when supply outgrows demand. There will also be Lenovo, HP, Acer, Asus, Dell... RT tablets, covering different price levels and build quality. MS doesn't want to be Apple, otherwise they'd keep RT for themselves. What MS wants - in my opinion - is to set standards in terms of pricing, specs and quality, in order to prevent greedy OEMs to try overpricing crappy products and tarnish RT platform in the long run.
Like I said, I do believe MS should have included keyboard cover in initial pricing, but they can always bundle it in a month-or-so time (Christmas special?), effectively forcing OEMs to adjust pricing of their models as well.
#next_pages_container { width: 5px; hight: 5px; position: absolute; top: -100px; left: -100px; z-index: 2147483647 !important; }"when supply outgrows demand"? I see you are an optimist about MS' chances. Otherwise, interesting thoughts.
#next_pages_container { width: 5px; hight: 5px; position: absolute; top: -100px; left: -100px; z-index: 2147483647 !important; }
Quote:
Originally Posted by v5v
Okay, I know I'll regret it later, but I'll bite: WHY shouldn't laptops have touchscreens?
...because when you try to squash gnats on your laptop screen and it's touch sensitive you can cause all kinds of data loss or changes.
Users generally don't want to be raising their hands up to poke the screen when it's far easier to do the same thing more conventionally.
Quote:
Originally Posted by igriv
#next_pages_container { width: 5px; hight: 5px; position: absolute; top: -100px; left: -100px; z-index: 2147483647 !important; }
Apple has pretty fat gross margins, so it should be possible to undercut the iPad. Microsoft wants to be Apple, so seems to be also selling this thing with pretty cushy margins.
#next_pages_container { width: 5px; hight: 5px; position: absolute; top: -100px; left: -100px; z-index: 2147483647 !important; }
Apple's gross margins are fat because of their scale of purchasing. This allows Apple to sell product at prices barely above the competitors costs. Interestingly enough it was the iPod successes that got Apple to the power house component buyer they are today. There's far less room to maneuver under the Apple-set retail price point than you realize.
Oops...
Oops...
http://gizmodo.com/5952370/watch-a-microsoft-exec-hilariously-rap-with-a-rapper-about-fcking-two-btches
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macky the Macky
Like the guy said, You really have a laptop-wired brain focus.
Actually, probably more of a laptop-wired to-do list, but I get your point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macky the Macky
The Apple TV is very tiny and a no-brainer to hook up; so bring your own to use with your iPad and Airplay away.
Way ahead o'ya. The one time I tried it, finding power for the ATV turned out to be an issue. It was also slightly more hassle to carry around than a long HDMI cable (not enough hassle to be a deal breaker, but still, more). It's a great idea and should work fine in most scenarios, but in practice Murphy is often an unforgiving sunofabitch and it's just safer to go with the KISS principle.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macky the Macky
Use the right tool for the different jobs.
I'm with you. My point is that the Surface may be a first step in bringing the two disparate device paradigms closer together. If it does, I would consider it a good thing (in a general, Martha Stewart kinda way).
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnalogJack
We can only guess but it is certainly not made of anything that is perfectly stable like glass or metal. Perhaps some sort of artificial fibre reinforced resin by the look of it. Whatever it is it appears to have no edge finish, probably in order to maintain the 'surface' profile. It looks like it will be subject to warping and fraying.
Also note that there are two keyboards, one with no tactile keys for $100 and one with tactile keys for $130. Due to the small price difference and due to the obvious fact that some sort of feedback is a must on anything that is not a purely software keyboard, then it can safely be assumed that the standard $100 keyboard, which is what most users will opt for is probably going to be an unmitigated disaster.
the keyboard material seems to be perfectly designed to catch pet hair. You may need to schedule appointments with MS to have it cut and groomed regularly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by eksodos
RT. That's all you can buy atm. Pro version (Win 8) arrives in three months.
Three months...what does that figure out to be in techno-years?? This is important since RIMM will ship the BB10 in March 2013 and in techno-years that's just shortly before the last star in the universe flickers out...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macky the Macky
...because when you try to squash gnats on your laptop screen and it's touch sensitive you can cause all kinds of data loss or changes.
Users generally don't want to be raising their hands up to poke the screen when it's far easier to do the same thing more conventionally.
Agreed. HOWEVER...
This came up in the context of how a Surface begins to bridge the gap between tablet and laptop. If we envision an evolution towards something that integrates the advantages of both, a touchscreen makes sense because we're talking about something that offers a keyboard when you need or want it, but not when you don't. When you don't, you use the touchscreen.
Since we're talking about small devices, both screen and keyboard real-estate are limited. It's harder to work in something as versatile and easily used as an Apple trackpad. Having to choose between a limiting pointing device or reaching up may make a user more willing to forgive some ergonomic not-so-niceties.
It's also just one more choice for the user. I use both trackpad and mouse, as each is better at some things than the other. A touchscreen just adds one more option the user can incorporate or ignore according to their preference. Don't like it? Don't use it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
Think of the last vertical touchscreen you not only enjoyed using for extended periods, but saw any reason to use whatsoever.
Never have. Can't think of many situations in which I would (though I'm *SURE* there have been a few times in recent months that I've thought "That would be easier if I could just touch the screen with my finger" but I now can't think of a single example. Either they were lousy examples or my memory is getting REALLY bad. Or both.).
But now imagine we're talking about a device like... I dunno, the 11" Air, except that somehow you can fold the keyboard away and use it like an iPad. Now you have an application for a laptop with a touchscreen.
For people like you who keep insisting that touch screen laptops with foldaway keyboards are the ultimate thing... Where were you people when manufacturers where trying to get people to buy Windows convertible tablet / laptops for the past decade? And why lust after the shiny new old thing when the shiny old old thing wasn't worth buying?
You'll notice I said "when", not "if". I think that makes me realist more than optimist. There is always spike of interest for new product, ant there is often shortage before production and supply chains sort themselves out and enough units end up on shelves.
That being said. We are receiving above average interest from our larger corporate users for both RT and WP8. We are not incouraging nor discouraging them at the moment, but we will definitely trial them when available here in NZ, and if there are advantages over iOS and Android options, we will be pushing them to customers. Realistically, this is most likely way for MS to gather some ground.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton
[...] why lust after the shiny new old thing when the shiny old old thing wasn't worth buying?
Because technology has marched on in the intervening years. Touchscreens are better. Components are smaller. Software is better. Device cost is lower.
In short, because many of the issues that made the old old thing not worth buying have been fixed now.
Also I note in the original ad that the main guy, pulls the Surface pad out of his briefcase to use it, then decides that he'd like to type something so he dives back into his briefcase to get the keyboard cover. But if the keyboard is a cover, then why is it not already on the pad? WTF is the point of having an uncovered pad and the cover separately stored in your briefcase? Same seems to go for the bench guys.
What is the message here?
Also I see that one extremely übercool feature of this tablet is the ability to exchange keyboards with your mates. But why? is it some form of primitive Windows bonding ritual.
I can hardly wait for the release day, this item is going to get absolutely zuned.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133
That being said. We are receiving above average interest from our larger corporate users for both RT and WP8.
Interesting. Perhaps there may some regional differences, but in the USA the interest in trying out the Win 9 pre-release OS is only 1/5 of the interest in Win 7 when it was in its pre-release period. This little factoid has been a reliable indicator of the possible adoption rate of a MS OS.
Many of the largest corporation are either staying with XP or are only now adopting Win 7. But, for the first time ever, some products like the Win 8 phones and faplets will not be backward compatible to earlier versions of MS OS. This means that regardless of whether end user buys MS branded hardware or some other brand, the user will be operating within a mixed OS house.
Now normally it would be easy to just pick Win 8 and go... but years and years have passed since Apple and then Android OEMs have been integrated into large company's IT efforts. These other choices have proven themselves with IT. A lot of eyes have been opened that were long closed, and MS may be shocked at what new attitudes their absence has awoken into being.
“We must learn to reawaken and keep ourselves awake...”
—Henry David Thoreau
Is it? When I'm sitting on the sofa with my laptop on top of me, trying to use the trackpad can be a real pain as its right next to my body. Being able to touch the screen would be far far far easier.