Remember, this is Tim Cook's Apple. The guy is a logistics genius, and the best way for him to show off his logistics skills is to cut price dramatically and STILL retain 30% margins. For the iPad 3, I don't think anyone in their right mind expected Apple to offer a Retina display at the same price point as the iPad 2!
Apple will likely offer a $250 price point for 16GB iPad Mini, but that $250 will include $50 in free apps or music from the iTunes / App store. This is the sort of promotion Apple can offer, where they cement their ecosystem even further, and destroy the competition.
I believe we are seeing a much more ruthless version of Apple, where they will not leave anything on the table for the competition. The older Apple under Steve played a different game - of not caring for Marketshare - but when you appoint a logistics genius as your CEO, you HAVE to play a different game.
This is going to be fun, the way gladiator battles are fun :-)
I seriously do not mind Apple being ruthless. If Cook were able to deliver an excellent product at a low price AND retain high margins, I would have no complaints. That would be magic. Apple to $1000...
If anyone deserves to be sued, it's the drive manufacturers. Since time immemorial, hard drive capacities had been given in the same way as RAM: 1 Kilobyte = 1024 bytes (2^10). So 1 MB = 2^20, 1 GB = 2^30...by the time you get to TBs, there's a 10% difference.
Then they suddenly started rating their capacities in decimal, so 1 GB = 1,000,000,000 bytes, not 1,073,741,824 as it always had. Of course, Apple quoted the drive capacities by what the manufacturer called them—it's part of the name, in most cases! So the user forums were full of foaming diatribes about Apple cheating everybody—"I paid for 160 GB, and it's only 149! Apple are criminals!"
Finally Apple was fatigued into compliance, and with Snow Leopard they started having the OS use decimal values, so a "160 GB" hard drive formatted out to 160. So far so good—but unfortunately they also told people to expect to get a little more free space when they upgraded, because of the leaner code. People saw a much bigger gain than expected because Snow Leopard also started counting in short decimal "Gigabytes". So anybody who said they got a bigger bump than they expected was pounced on by some troll screaming: "That's just because they started shorting you by counting capacity in decimal! Apple is lying to you!"
Everything hardware-related but RAM seems to have switched to the skimpy prefixes now, but most content you might download is still counted in real Kilo-, Mega-, and Gigabytes, and I'm always trying to figure out how many proper Megabytes will fit on my 4- or 8- "Gigabyte" thumb drive, for example. IMO, the FTC should have pounced on the drive manufacturers when they started cheating people—they've gotten pissy about a lot less flagrant misrepresentation than that.
You can't sue the drive manufacturers. The decimal notation far outdates their existence in the market. If anything you need to blame those in charge with allowing the same word to be used for a 2nd measure. HDD capacities have been marketed using binary notion long before it was an issue, it's just that you didn't notice until the disparity became excessive.
What we need is more education so we can get people to adopt the IEC standard to help avoid confusion.
I generally agree with your points. I want Apple to build excellent, useful, and beautiful products and sell them at a competitive price for people who understand the value.
8GB is just too little. I apologize for skipping the detailed discussion of GB, memory, and data... Schools will want personalized log-in's for different students, and future versions of iOS will offer it. File sizes of photos, music, videos, apps, and textbooks will grow larger. Also, schools invest in products that last for more than 2 years. They don't have the budget to update frequently.
If Apple believes that a cheapo 8-GB device can be beneficial to or is needed by the education sector, they can offer it directly to them.
Too little for whom? I pointlessly have a 64GB iPad (3) and barely use over 8GB on it. Now if I were only using it for surfing the internet, email and the average app (like someone who is older and not computer savvy) then I think 8GB would be more than sufficient at a low price point.
What about these used for businesses, perhaps for inventory in a warehouse or for on-site jobs? Many years ago I had a job that issued me a Win tablet for the latter. It was horrible. What about a restaurant for their wait staff? What about for entertainment rental on a train, plane, airport?
Why do all use cases have to only include an extreme use case or be written in a way that assumes if an 8GB model was introduced that there would not be a 16 or 32GB model as well for those that need more capacity? The iPhone 4/iOS 6 is still shipping with 8GB and that's stopped people from buying larger capacity devices, right?
Too little for whom? I pointless have a 64GB iPad (3) and barely use over 8GB on it. Now if I were only using it for surfing the internet, email and the average app (like someone who is older and not computer savvy) then I think 8GB would be more than sufficient at a low price point.
What about these used for businesses, perhaps for inventory in a warehouse or for on-site jobs? Many years ago I had a job that issued me a Win tablet for the latter. It was horrible. What about a restaurant for their wait staff? What about for entertainment rental on a train, plane, airport?
Why do all use cases have to only include an extreme use case or be written in a way that assumes if an 8GB model was introduced that there would not be a 16 or 32GB model as well for those that need more capacity? The iPhone 4 is still shipping with 8GB and that's stopped people from buying larger capacity devices, right?
Thank you. Yes, I read about your thinking on the iPad mini's value in inventory jobs, restaurants, and hotel chains. I guess I just don't want them to go to that $250 price point. That 8GB extra costs Apple maybe $5, and I would rather that they keep the margins "higher" and sell the 16GB at $299. As you mentioned earlier, the ecosystem, the brand, and the quality justify a premium. If the iPad mini had one or two new "tricks," they could price the 16GB at $349 and nobody would complain. If the iPad mini can help those mentioned jobs and they "need" it anyway, Apple might as well charge them more for a 16GB.
I personally do not want to see Apple introducing a me-too product backed by its ecosystem and start a price war. They do not need to do this. Google is slowly self-destructing already.
Apple needs to provide quality and value with the iPad mini.
From my humble experience, I see that people are okay with upgrading their phones every year. On the other hand, they see the iPad as a mini computer and that it should last them for at least two years (or more). 8GB would be too little down the road, if you consider people put music on it, take photos, and that apps are getting bigger. I have a few friends who have 16GB iPad's and are afraid to load it up with music after being 10GB full. They said that it would feel bloated or that it might slow down the system. Of course, I know these are ignorant statements. But perception can be reality for some.
Just make it 16GB standard for all current devices. Then people will have nothing to worry about.
Thank you. Yes, I read about your thinking on the iPad mini's value in inventory jobs, restaurants, and hotel chains. I guess I just don't want them to go to that $250 price point. That 8GB extra costs Apple maybe $5, and I would rather that they keep the margins "higher" and sell the 16GB at $299. As you mentioned earlier, the ecosystem, the brand, and the quality justify a premium. If the iPad mini had one or two new "tricks," they could price the 16GB at $349 and nobody would complain. If the iPad mini can help those mentioned jobs and they "need" it anyway, Apple might as well charge them more for a 16GB.
I personally do not want to see Apple introducing a me-too product backed by its ecosystem and start a price war. They do not need to do this. Google is slowly self-destructing already.
Apple needs to provide quality and value with the iPad mini.
From my humble experience, I see that people are okay with upgrading their phones every year. On the other hand, they see the iPad as a mini computer and that it should last them for at least two years (or more). 8GB would be too little down the road, if you consider people put music on it, take photos, and that apps are getting bigger. I have a few friends who have 16GB iPad's and are afraid to load it up with music after being 10GB full. They said that it would feel bloated or that it might slow down the system. Of course, I know these are ignorant statements. But perception can be reality for some.
Just make it 16GB standard for all current devices. Then people will have nothing to worry about.
1) I personally think that 16GB for the minimum is the most likely to expect.
2) The low end of the iPhone models is still only 8GB but I can't imagine anyone is saying that the iPhone is a weaker brand for it.
In fact, I'd argue that because you didn't note the 8GB iPhone 4, either because you didn't know of it or didn't think of it, speaks volumes to a low cost entry level model for the low-capacity user being a real market Apple would want to engage.
3) Your friends who load up music are not part of any scenario I previously mentioned. As much as I love music there seems to be plenty of people that simply don't care about music or have long ago cut off their ties to music so that they would only consider a few dozen artists moving forward.
4) I have seen several restaurants with iPads for POS systems. However, I've seen even more businesses with 7" tablets that only came out after the iPad for POS and various other jobs. Recently in a restaurant I frequent and they were setting up some 7" tablet for their wine inventory. I asked about it and they would have preferred an iPad but it's too costly for their needs eve thought they agree that programming the app (the owners used to be developers) would have been simpler and cheaper. I think this will help AAPL stock greatly if they can make a $250 tablet an option.
5) I get $250 at 16GB is most likely but I think 8GB at $199 is possible, too.
6) People have argued that 16GB (and even 32GB) wasn't enough for school use and came up with extreme cases. Now if that is the use then the minimum capacity won't be enough but we need to consider usage needs that aren't typically those posting on an internet tech forum.
If they can manage to clean up the iTunes stores (media and books) hat will be even more so true.
By clean up I mean things like pricing, release timetables, quality of media, metadata. That last one is a major one in my book. There are things linked as similar items that have nothing to do with each other, name links don't actually pull up everything by a person, or pulls up stuff from several folks as if they are the same etc. so you have the soundtrack to some 1940s musical movie connected to a TV show. Or when Genius recommends the movie 'Little Nikita' and you ponder what other River Phoenix movies are available so you click his name and freaking Stand By Me, which is in the store and has his name listed, doesn't come up. Or you search for the author of several kids how to draw books and also get erotic fiction by a different author with the same name. Not good.
Every album should have liner notes that are accessible with one click on any device running iTunes. The fact that they don't is a major, major problem for me. I'd sooner buy CDs from Amazon and rip them into iTunes than buy iTMS tracks. I want to know who's playing bass, what year the record was produced, who produced it, who's singing backup. That has always been the best way for me to do music discovery. Apple could also have each searchable term hyperlinked to take you to that music category in the store-to buy more music in which you likely already are interested. I just don't get it. Heck, they even could've just uploaded liner notes as .pdfs. Discovery is just terrible in iTunes.
Every album should have liner notes that are accessible with one click on any device running iTunes. The fact that they don't is a major, major problem for me. I'd sooner buy CDs from Amazon and rip them into iTunes than buy iTMS tracks. I want to know who's playing bass, what year the record was produced, who produced it, who's singing backup. That has always been the best way for me to do music discovery. Apple could also have each searchable term hyperlinked to take you to that music category in the store-to buy more music in which you likely already are interested. I just don't get it. Heck, they even could've just uploaded liner notes as .pdfs. Discovery is just terrible in iTunes.
Wikipedia far exceeds any CD linear notes in data.
In fact, I'd argue that because you didn't note the 8GB iPhone 4, either because you didn't know of it or didn't think of it, speaks volumes to a low cost entry level model for the low-capacity user being a real market Apple would want to engage.
3) Your friends who load up music are not part of any scenario I previously mentioned. As much as I love music there seems to be plenty of people that simply don't care about music or have long ago cut off their ties to music so that they would only consider a few dozen artists moving forward.
4) I have seen several restaurants with iPads for POS systems. However, I've seen even more businesses with 7" tablets that only came out after the iPad for POS and various other jobs. Recently in a restaurant I frequent and they were setting up some 7" tablet for their wine inventory. I asked about it and they would have preferred an iPad but it's too costly for their needs eve thought they agree that programming the app (the owners used to be developers) would have been simpler and cheaper. I think this will help AAPL stock greatly if they can make a $250 tablet an option.
5) I get $250 at 16GB is most likely but I think 8GB at $199 is possible, too.
6) People have argued that 16GB (and even 32GB) wasn't enough for school use and came up with extreme cases. Now if that is the use then the minimum capacity won't be enough but we need to consider usage needs that aren't typically those posting on an internet tech forum.
I definitely agree that 16GB should be the minimum. "Perceived" value is important for the new audience of the iPad mini. Google will be doing a 32GB device at $250 (or even 64GB later, whatever). A $250 iPad mini with 8GB would look bad. It doesn't matter if the users need more than 8GB or not.
You just don't want the potential customers to think too much. By now, I think most people (even the masses) realize that 16GB is plenty enough for general usage. As long as they feel 16GB is "enough," it doesn't matter if Google offers 32GB at a similar price point. Apple's quality and ecosystem take over.
I'm aware of the 8GB iPhone 4. But that situation is a bit different, I think. First, customers who sign new contracts or renew their contracts see the 8GB iPhone 4 as a "free phone." Secondly, I mentioned that people "feel" that they can get another phone a year later if the 8GB doesn't work out. A phone is a 1 to 2 year investment. On other hand, they might think and consider a little more if they were to pay $299 for a "mini tablet computer." So I say just give them 16GB. Don't let them think.
You are correct that these friends who have 10GB or more in music do not represent the new audience that a "lower-priced" iPad mini is trying to find. But if my friends can be this ignorant about storage, what would the masses think about an 8GB iPad mini? Again, just give them 16GB... don't let them think or worry.
If Apple offers adequate value with the iPad mini, I am confident that those restaurant owners would not worry about the premium paid for the 16GB base model. Providing solutions is important. The iPad mini would pay for itself.
On the topic of confidence, it would worry me if Apple introduces the iPad mini 8GB at $199. It would indicate that they aren't confident in its value.
I am not sure what is really needed in schools. Maybe they could put all the "stuff" on a server or use some cloud service, and an 8GB device would be "enough." Or they might need 64GB for all the students who come into the science lab (each student would have his/her own log-in and folders). I don't know. But if they do need an 8GB device, Apple could provide them directly like they did with the eMac or the lower-priced iBook's.
Wikipedia far exceeds any CD linear notes in data.
I would want the data concise and local. If I'm offline, I cannot access Wikipedia. I rarely see additional inside album art, back cover art, etc on Wikipedia. Not to mention, less mainstream artists may be less likely to have Wikipedia contributors posting that info. Will labels just stop making album art as music increasingly goes digital? I'm a bit of a vinyl collector, so it just happens to mean a lot to me.
Having a small "info" icon or tapping on the album art to flip to liner notes inside Music app would be a more elegant solution than scrolling through Wikipedia. If "Go to Wikipedia for that artist/album info" actually reflects Apple's stance, then, WOW. Just....WOW.
I definitely agree that 16GB should be the minimum. "Perceived" value is important for the new audience of the iPad mini. Google will be doing a 32GB device at $250 (or even 64GB later, whatever). A $250 iPad mini with 8GB would look bad. It doesn't matter if the users need more than 8GB or not.
You just don't want the potential customers to think too much. By now, I think most people (even the masses) realize that 16GB is plenty enough for general usage. As long as they feel 16GB is "enough," it doesn't matter if Google offers 32GB at a similar price point. Apple's quality and ecosystem take over.
I'm aware of the 8GB iPhone 4. But that situation is a bit different, I think. First, customers who sign new contracts or renew their contracts see the 8GB iPhone 4 as a "free phone." Secondly, I mentioned that people "feel" that they can get another phone a year later if the 8GB doesn't work out. A phone is a 1 to 2 year investment. On other hand, they might think and consider a little more if they were to pay $299 for a "mini tablet computer." So I say just give them 16GB. Don't let them think.
You are correct that these friends who have 10GB or more in music do not represent the new audience that a "lower-priced" iPad mini is trying to find. But if my friends can be this ignorant about storage, what would the masses think about an 8GB iPad mini? Again, just give them 16GB... don't let them think or worry.
If Apple offers adequate value with the iPad mini, I am confident that those restaurant owners would not worry about the premium paid for the 16GB base model. Providing solutions is important. The iPad mini would pay for itself.
On the topic of confidence, it would worry me if Apple introduces the iPad mini 8GB at $199. It would indicate that they aren't confident in its value.
I am not sure what is really needed in schools. Maybe they could put all the "stuff" on a server or use some cloud service, and an 8GB device would be "enough." Or they might need 64GB for all the students who come into the science lab (each student would have his/her own log-in and folders). I don't know. But if they do need an 8GB device, Apple could provide them directly like they did with the eMac or the lower-priced iBook's.
Others have mentioned that infrastructure/device management solutions in education markets could make up for the lack of local storage in an 8 GB iPad. However, no one's saying who will manage that infrastructure. Will 3rd grade 8 year olds delete iBooks? The teacher? Will schools hire IT managers? Your local underfunded public school Who will manage these devices? Apple will need a very, very robust IT support system available to education institutions.
I definitely agree that 16GB should be the minimum. "Perceived" value is important for the new audience of the iPad mini. Google will be doing a 32GB device at $250 (or even 64GB later, whatever). A $250 iPad mini with 8GB would look bad. It doesn't matter if the users need more than 8GB or not.
You just don't want the potential customers to think too much. By now, I think most people (even the masses) realize that 16GB is plenty enough for general usage. As long as they feel 16GB is "enough," it doesn't matter if Google offers 32GB at a similar price point. Apple's quality and ecosystem take over.
I'm aware of the 8GB iPhone 4. But that situation is a bit different, I think. First, customers who sign new contracts or renew their contracts see the 8GB iPhone 4 as a "free phone." Secondly, I mentioned that people "feel" that they can get another phone a year later if the 8GB doesn't work out. A phone is a 1 to 2 year investment. On other hand, they might think and consider a little more if they were to pay $299 for a "mini tablet computer." So I say just give them 16GB. Don't let them think.
You are correct that these friends who have 10GB or more in music do not represent the new audience that a "lower-priced" iPad mini is trying to find. But if my friends can be this ignorant about storage, what would the masses think about an 8GB iPad mini? Again, just give them 16GB... don't let them think or worry.
If Apple offers adequate value with the iPad mini, I am confident that those restaurant owners would not worry about the premium paid for the 16GB base model. Providing solutions is important. The iPad mini would pay for itself.
On the topic of confidence, it would worry me if Apple introduces the iPad mini 8GB at $199. It would indicate that they aren't confident in its value.
I am not sure what is really needed in schools. Maybe they could put all the "stuff" on a server or use some cloud service, and an 8GB device would be "enough." Or they might need 64GB for all the students who come into the science lab (each student would have his/her own log-in and folders). I don't know. But if they do need an 8GB device, Apple could provide them directly like they did with the eMac or the lower-priced iBook's.
Perceived value? So you think the $49 iPod Shuffle makes the iPod Touch look like crap because it starts at $49? What about the 8GB iPhone they sell making the 64GB iPhone look like crap? The perceived value is that you can spend a little more for a lot more storage that could benefit you as a user if you plan to grow into it. The perceived value is that you aren't buying the cheapest model like some cheapskate. There is a reason companies offer the good, better, best tiers instead of just a single best option.
You're still looking at this from the perspective of you and your friends and not from those that don't need to store a lot of data on the device. Again, you can look at the 8GB iPhone 4 now on sale as proof that it 1) is still a viable capacity for Apple, and 2) not something that weakens the iPhone brand. Do people commonly put their songs on tablets over a pocketable device? I certainly don't which is why I have so much room on my iPad.
I would want the data concise and local. If I'm offline, I cannot access Wikipedia. I rarely see additional inside album art, back cover art, etc on Wikipedia. Not to mention, less mainstream artists may be less likely to have Wikipedia contributors posting that info. Will labels just stop making album art as music increasingly goes digital? I'm a bit of a vinyl collector, so it just happens to mean a lot to me.
Having a small "info" icon or tapping on the album art to flip to liner notes inside Music app would be a more elegant solution than scrolling through Wikipedia. If "Go to Wikipedia for that artist/album info" actually reflects Apple's stance, then, WOW. Just....WOW.
I have no problem with that but it's not available so if you want detailed info you can get a whole lot more from Wikipedia than you can from linear notes. You can even copy info into the song under lyrics. It would be nice if Apple offered something better but I can't imagine there are times when you have your CD jewel case with you but aren't close to an internet connection.
Others have mentioned that infrastructure/device management solutions in education markets could make up for the lack of local storage in an 8 GB iPad. However, no one's saying who will manage that infrastructure. Will 3rd grade 8 year olds delete iBooks? The teacher? Will schools hire IT managers? Your local underfunded public school Who will manage these devices? Apple will need a very, very robust IT support system available to education institutions.
There are plenty of ways this can happen. Apple has a great system in place for locking down these devices and pushing and pulling files as needed. There will surely be some education and infrastructure but if the TCO is less than other methods then it's a win-win for educators and students.
I would want the data concise and local. If I'm offline, I cannot access Wikipedia. I rarely see additional inside album art, back cover art, etc on Wikipedia. Not to mention, less mainstream artists may be less likely to have Wikipedia contributors posting that info. Will labels just stop making album art as music increasingly goes digital? I'm a bit of a vinyl collector, so it just happens to mean a lot to me.
Having a small "info" icon or tapping on the album art to flip to liner notes inside Music app would be a more elegant solution than scrolling through Wikipedia. If "Go to Wikipedia for that artist/album info" actually reflects Apple's stance, then, WOW. Just....WOW.
I think Apple will offer what you want "later." Just don't know when. They will gradually improve and increase the value of their software services.
I'm into reading the album notes and musicians' names and info too.
I have no problem with that but it's not available so if you want detailed info you can get a whole lot more from Wikipedia than you can from linear notes. You can even copy info into the song under lyrics. It would be nice if Apple offered something better but I can't imagine there are times when you have your CD jewel case with you but aren't close to an internet connection.
Pretty soon you will not be able to find any place on earth without cell signal. There are still a few places that are out of range but you really have to be out in the middle of nowhere.
Anyway thanks for the tip on Wikipedia for band info. I never thought about looking for it. I'm more into just listening and haven't really been that curious about the band details. Just as a test I was listening to Radio Paradise which plays a lot of unusual music and over a period of about a half hour I searched for each band's Wikipedia page and everyone was there although one was in French. Pretty cool. It would be nice if Apple could link to that page from iTunes.
There are plenty of ways this can happen. Apple has a great system in place for locking down these devices and pushing and pulling files as needed. There will surely be some education and infrastructure but if the TCO is less than other methods then it's a win-win for educators and students.
Quote:
Originally Posted by melmel
I think Apple will offer what you want "later." Just don't know when. They will gradually improve and increase the value of their software services.
I'm into reading the album notes and musicians' names and info too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone
Pretty soon you will not be able to find any place on earth without cell signal. There are still a few places that are out of range but you really have to be out in the middle of nowhere.
Anyway thanks for the tip on Wikipedia for band info. I never thought about looking for it. I'm more into just listening and haven't really been that curious about the band details. Just as a test I was listening to Radio Paradise which plays a lot of unusual music and over a period of about a half hour I searched for each band's Wikipedia page and everyone was there although one was in French. Pretty cool. It would be nice if Apple could link to that page from iTunes.
Come to think of it, an IMDB-style app for music would be amazing. The IMDB app is one of my most frequently-used iPhone apps.
Pretty soon you will not be able to find any place on earth without cell signal. There are still a few places that are out of range but you really have to be out in the middle of nowhere.
Anyway thanks for the tip on Wikipedia for band info. I never thought about looking for it. I'm more into just listening and haven't really been that curious about the band details. Just as a test I was listening to Radio Paradise which plays a lot of unusual music and over a period of about a half hour I searched for each band's Wikipedia page and everyone was there although one was in French. Pretty cool. It would be nice if Apple could link to that page from iTunes.
Shazam has a link to Wikipedia (among other places) when you locate a song. I've found that very helpful over the years. Wikipedia is great for that info you would never find in liner notes. I'd rather give up Google search before I give up Wikipedia as a resource.
Come to think of it, an IMDB-style app for music would be amazing. The IMDB app is one of my most frequently-used iPhone apps.
That would be nice. IMDb already has video games and pornos in their library so I don't know why haven't expanded to music (or at least music videos) and commercials.
OT: I find it interesting how unchallenged in the market IMDb has been over the years.
The entry level price is also more than I had expected which makes me wonder if the A5 in the iPod Touch will be used or if I gauged the cost of that 163 PPI 1024x768 display properly or if they will use that display at all.
Perceived value? So you think the $49 iPod Shuffle makes the iPod Touch look like crap because it starts at $49? What about the 8GB iPhone they sell making the 64GB iPhone look like crap? The perceived value is that you can spend a little more for a lot more storage that could benefit you as a user if you plan to grow into it. The perceived value is that you aren't buying the cheapest model like some cheapskate. There is a reason companies offer the good, better, best tiers instead of just a single best option.
You're still looking at this from the perspective of you and your friends and not from those that don't need to store a lot of data on the device. Again, you can look at the 8GB iPhone 4 now on sale as proof that it 1) is still a viable capacity for Apple, and 2) not something that weakens the iPhone brand. Do people commonly put their songs on tablets over a pocketable device? I certainly don't which is why I have so much room on my iPad.
I did read your response carefully.
There is very little competition in the mp3-player space. Every iPod line and model is golden, even the 160GB Classic at $249. Apple has done their research and has priced each one "correctly" (with a premium). That means the "perceived" values match the prices.
I don't understand what you were trying to do with the iPod comparisons. The $49 2GB Shuffle does not make the Touch look bad. They belong to different lines of the iPod brand. But a $49 500MB Shuffle would make the Shuffle itself look bad. A $249 Classic with 30GB would look bad. That is, compared to Samsung's current (and ugly) mp3 players and their prices.
People may love the Apple brand, but they are also somewhat aware of what the competitors are offering. An 8GB $250 iPad mini would look bad compared to the Nexus 7. We can argue about the benefits of the Apple ecosystem and quality, and we might talk about how even 4GB would be enough for you and me, because all of our music and stuff are on the iPhone anyway. Well, you know what? I think you and I would still consider the iPad mini even if it only had 4GB (only one capacity). But I'm not talking about you and me. I'm also not talking about the people on this board.
Not everyone knows or understands software or even the differences between iOS and Android. Obviously, for you and me, iOS offers much much much more value. But not everyone can appreciate it; they might be uninformed or misinformed. So when they are shopping for a small tablet, they see the iPad mini and Nexus 7. They may not have the time to read 10 online reviews and ask questions on a board. They may not have enough time to test them out in a store. That is when perceived value comes in.
I think 16GB is that threshold where people don't worry about capacity.
When all Android tablets are priced at or below $250 and have 32GB, a $250 iPad mini with 8GB DEFINITELY looks bad. Maybe this audience cannot "perceive" the value of iOS and everything Apple. They are only "perceiving" things through meaningless numbers and misinformation. It also doesn't help if evil salespeople are trying to steer the customer to an Android device just so they can get a higher commission or whatever.
"Good, better, best" is a great system. I do not believe Apple wants their customers to feel like cheapskates just because they bought the base model. Apple values their customers and wants them to feel valued too. Just start the iPad mini with 16GB. Fewer worries from customers, easier sales.
I already gave the reasons on why the 8GB iPhone 4 is doing fine. In that situation, yes, you KNOW that you are a cheapo for getting the "free" iPhone (and accept it). Moreover, that is NOT the "base model" of the iPhone. The base model of the iPhone is the 16GB iPhone 5. The iPhone 4 is the model from two years ago. Given iPhone's publicity and marketing, even regular joes know about the 4S after it and the current iPhone 5. Even my grandma knows.
Since the 8GB iPhone 4 is free from the carriers, this iPhone 4 has a lower "perceived" value. The expectations would be lower. The users won't baby the phone as much. But at the same time, with Apple's iOS magic, even the free iPhone 4 works better than the "newer" Android phones (these users realize this when checking out their peers' Android phones). The iPhone 4 experience even surpasses their lowered expectations. They will probably get the next iPhone too. Damn, Apple is so smart.
My friends are not techies or "power" users, but I would call them "experienced" users. In general, they FEEL 8GB is too little. That is my general thinking too. I hope Tim Cook and Phil Schiller agree.
You're still looking at this from the perspective of you and your friends and not from those that don't need to store a lot of data on the device.
Do people commonly put their songs on tablets over a pocketable device? I certainly don't which is why I have so much room on my iPad.
I personally think that you are the one who is basing others' usage patterns on your own perspective and assumptions.
I have servers, iMacs, laptops, etc, and I think you do too. We will strongly consider the iPad mini. But not everyone is like you or me. For many people, the iPad may be their main computing device. Apple is trying to extend their reach with the iPad mini and lower price points. These new users have a different usage pattern than you and me.
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by macarena
Remember, this is Tim Cook's Apple. The guy is a logistics genius, and the best way for him to show off his logistics skills is to cut price dramatically and STILL retain 30% margins. For the iPad 3, I don't think anyone in their right mind expected Apple to offer a Retina display at the same price point as the iPad 2!
Apple will likely offer a $250 price point for 16GB iPad Mini, but that $250 will include $50 in free apps or music from the iTunes / App store. This is the sort of promotion Apple can offer, where they cement their ecosystem even further, and destroy the competition.
I believe we are seeing a much more ruthless version of Apple, where they will not leave anything on the table for the competition. The older Apple under Steve played a different game - of not caring for Marketshare - but when you appoint a logistics genius as your CEO, you HAVE to play a different game.
This is going to be fun, the way gladiator battles are fun :-)
I seriously do not mind Apple being ruthless. If Cook were able to deliver an excellent product at a low price AND retain high margins, I would have no complaints. That would be magic. Apple to $1000...
You can't sue the drive manufacturers. The decimal notation far outdates their existence in the market. If anything you need to blame those in charge with allowing the same word to be used for a 2nd measure. HDD capacities have been marketed using binary notion long before it was an issue, it's just that you didn't notice until the disparity became excessive.
What we need is more education so we can get people to adopt the IEC standard to help avoid confusion.
Too little for whom? I pointlessly have a 64GB iPad (3) and barely use over 8GB on it. Now if I were only using it for surfing the internet, email and the average app (like someone who is older and not computer savvy) then I think 8GB would be more than sufficient at a low price point.
What about these used for businesses, perhaps for inventory in a warehouse or for on-site jobs? Many years ago I had a job that issued me a Win tablet for the latter. It was horrible. What about a restaurant for their wait staff? What about for entertainment rental on a train, plane, airport?
Why do all use cases have to only include an extreme use case or be written in a way that assumes if an 8GB model was introduced that there would not be a 16 or 32GB model as well for those that need more capacity? The iPhone 4/iOS 6 is still shipping with 8GB and that's stopped people from buying larger capacity devices, right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
Too little for whom? I pointless have a 64GB iPad (3) and barely use over 8GB on it. Now if I were only using it for surfing the internet, email and the average app (like someone who is older and not computer savvy) then I think 8GB would be more than sufficient at a low price point.
What about these used for businesses, perhaps for inventory in a warehouse or for on-site jobs? Many years ago I had a job that issued me a Win tablet for the latter. It was horrible. What about a restaurant for their wait staff? What about for entertainment rental on a train, plane, airport?
Why do all use cases have to only include an extreme use case or be written in a way that assumes if an 8GB model was introduced that there would not be a 16 or 32GB model as well for those that need more capacity? The iPhone 4 is still shipping with 8GB and that's stopped people from buying larger capacity devices, right?
Thank you. Yes, I read about your thinking on the iPad mini's value in inventory jobs, restaurants, and hotel chains. I guess I just don't want them to go to that $250 price point. That 8GB extra costs Apple maybe $5, and I would rather that they keep the margins "higher" and sell the 16GB at $299. As you mentioned earlier, the ecosystem, the brand, and the quality justify a premium. If the iPad mini had one or two new "tricks," they could price the 16GB at $349 and nobody would complain. If the iPad mini can help those mentioned jobs and they "need" it anyway, Apple might as well charge them more for a 16GB.
I personally do not want to see Apple introducing a me-too product backed by its ecosystem and start a price war. They do not need to do this. Google is slowly self-destructing already.
Apple needs to provide quality and value with the iPad mini.
From my humble experience, I see that people are okay with upgrading their phones every year. On the other hand, they see the iPad as a mini computer and that it should last them for at least two years (or more). 8GB would be too little down the road, if you consider people put music on it, take photos, and that apps are getting bigger. I have a few friends who have 16GB iPad's and are afraid to load it up with music after being 10GB full. They said that it would feel bloated or that it might slow down the system. Of course, I know these are ignorant statements. But perception can be reality for some.
Just make it 16GB standard for all current devices. Then people will have nothing to worry about.
1) I personally think that 16GB for the minimum is the most likely to expect.
2) The low end of the iPhone models is still only 8GB but I can't imagine anyone is saying that the iPhone is a weaker brand for it.
In fact, I'd argue that because you didn't note the 8GB iPhone 4, either because you didn't know of it or didn't think of it, speaks volumes to a low cost entry level model for the low-capacity user being a real market Apple would want to engage.
3) Your friends who load up music are not part of any scenario I previously mentioned. As much as I love music there seems to be plenty of people that simply don't care about music or have long ago cut off their ties to music so that they would only consider a few dozen artists moving forward.
4) I have seen several restaurants with iPads for POS systems. However, I've seen even more businesses with 7" tablets that only came out after the iPad for POS and various other jobs. Recently in a restaurant I frequent and they were setting up some 7" tablet for their wine inventory. I asked about it and they would have preferred an iPad but it's too costly for their needs eve thought they agree that programming the app (the owners used to be developers) would have been simpler and cheaper. I think this will help AAPL stock greatly if they can make a $250 tablet an option.
5) I get $250 at 16GB is most likely but I think 8GB at $199 is possible, too.
6) People have argued that 16GB (and even 32GB) wasn't enough for school use and came up with extreme cases. Now if that is the use then the minimum capacity won't be enough but we need to consider usage needs that aren't typically those posting on an internet tech forum.
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna
If they can manage to clean up the iTunes stores (media and books) hat will be even more so true.
By clean up I mean things like pricing, release timetables, quality of media, metadata. That last one is a major one in my book. There are things linked as similar items that have nothing to do with each other, name links don't actually pull up everything by a person, or pulls up stuff from several folks as if they are the same etc. so you have the soundtrack to some 1940s musical movie connected to a TV show. Or when Genius recommends the movie 'Little Nikita' and you ponder what other River Phoenix movies are available so you click his name and freaking Stand By Me, which is in the store and has his name listed, doesn't come up. Or you search for the author of several kids how to draw books and also get erotic fiction by a different author with the same name. Not good.
Every album should have liner notes that are accessible with one click on any device running iTunes. The fact that they don't is a major, major problem for me. I'd sooner buy CDs from Amazon and rip them into iTunes than buy iTMS tracks. I want to know who's playing bass, what year the record was produced, who produced it, who's singing backup. That has always been the best way for me to do music discovery. Apple could also have each searchable term hyperlinked to take you to that music category in the store-to buy more music in which you likely already are interested. I just don't get it. Heck, they even could've just uploaded liner notes as .pdfs. Discovery is just terrible in iTunes.
Wikipedia far exceeds any CD linear notes in data.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
1) I personally think that 16GB for the minimum is the most likely to expect.
2) The low end of the iPhone models is still only 8GB but I can't imagine anyone is saying that the iPhone is a weaker brand for it.
In fact, I'd argue that because you didn't note the 8GB iPhone 4, either because you didn't know of it or didn't think of it, speaks volumes to a low cost entry level model for the low-capacity user being a real market Apple would want to engage.http://store.apple.com/us/browse/home/shop_iphone/family/iphone/iphone4
3) Your friends who load up music are not part of any scenario I previously mentioned. As much as I love music there seems to be plenty of people that simply don't care about music or have long ago cut off their ties to music so that they would only consider a few dozen artists moving forward.
4) I have seen several restaurants with iPads for POS systems. However, I've seen even more businesses with 7" tablets that only came out after the iPad for POS and various other jobs. Recently in a restaurant I frequent and they were setting up some 7" tablet for their wine inventory. I asked about it and they would have preferred an iPad but it's too costly for their needs eve thought they agree that programming the app (the owners used to be developers) would have been simpler and cheaper. I think this will help AAPL stock greatly if they can make a $250 tablet an option.
5) I get $250 at 16GB is most likely but I think 8GB at $199 is possible, too.
6) People have argued that 16GB (and even 32GB) wasn't enough for school use and came up with extreme cases. Now if that is the use then the minimum capacity won't be enough but we need to consider usage needs that aren't typically those posting on an internet tech forum.
I definitely agree that 16GB should be the minimum. "Perceived" value is important for the new audience of the iPad mini. Google will be doing a 32GB device at $250 (or even 64GB later, whatever). A $250 iPad mini with 8GB would look bad. It doesn't matter if the users need more than 8GB or not.
You just don't want the potential customers to think too much. By now, I think most people (even the masses) realize that 16GB is plenty enough for general usage. As long as they feel 16GB is "enough," it doesn't matter if Google offers 32GB at a similar price point. Apple's quality and ecosystem take over.
I'm aware of the 8GB iPhone 4. But that situation is a bit different, I think. First, customers who sign new contracts or renew their contracts see the 8GB iPhone 4 as a "free phone." Secondly, I mentioned that people "feel" that they can get another phone a year later if the 8GB doesn't work out. A phone is a 1 to 2 year investment. On other hand, they might think and consider a little more if they were to pay $299 for a "mini tablet computer." So I say just give them 16GB. Don't let them think.
You are correct that these friends who have 10GB or more in music do not represent the new audience that a "lower-priced" iPad mini is trying to find. But if my friends can be this ignorant about storage, what would the masses think about an 8GB iPad mini? Again, just give them 16GB... don't let them think or worry.
If Apple offers adequate value with the iPad mini, I am confident that those restaurant owners would not worry about the premium paid for the 16GB base model. Providing solutions is important. The iPad mini would pay for itself.
On the topic of confidence, it would worry me if Apple introduces the iPad mini 8GB at $199. It would indicate that they aren't confident in its value.
I am not sure what is really needed in schools. Maybe they could put all the "stuff" on a server or use some cloud service, and an 8GB device would be "enough." Or they might need 64GB for all the students who come into the science lab (each student would have his/her own log-in and folders). I don't know. But if they do need an 8GB device, Apple could provide them directly like they did with the eMac or the lower-priced iBook's.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
Wikipedia far exceeds any CD linear notes in data.
I would want the data concise and local. If I'm offline, I cannot access Wikipedia. I rarely see additional inside album art, back cover art, etc on Wikipedia. Not to mention, less mainstream artists may be less likely to have Wikipedia contributors posting that info. Will labels just stop making album art as music increasingly goes digital? I'm a bit of a vinyl collector, so it just happens to mean a lot to me.
Having a small "info" icon or tapping on the album art to flip to liner notes inside Music app would be a more elegant solution than scrolling through Wikipedia. If "Go to Wikipedia for that artist/album info" actually reflects Apple's stance, then, WOW. Just....WOW.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
Wikipedia far exceeds any CD linear notes in data.
Oh yeah, and because it's Apple, it should be the experience, not just the data
Quote:
Originally Posted by melmel
I definitely agree that 16GB should be the minimum. "Perceived" value is important for the new audience of the iPad mini. Google will be doing a 32GB device at $250 (or even 64GB later, whatever). A $250 iPad mini with 8GB would look bad. It doesn't matter if the users need more than 8GB or not.
You just don't want the potential customers to think too much. By now, I think most people (even the masses) realize that 16GB is plenty enough for general usage. As long as they feel 16GB is "enough," it doesn't matter if Google offers 32GB at a similar price point. Apple's quality and ecosystem take over.
I'm aware of the 8GB iPhone 4. But that situation is a bit different, I think. First, customers who sign new contracts or renew their contracts see the 8GB iPhone 4 as a "free phone." Secondly, I mentioned that people "feel" that they can get another phone a year later if the 8GB doesn't work out. A phone is a 1 to 2 year investment. On other hand, they might think and consider a little more if they were to pay $299 for a "mini tablet computer." So I say just give them 16GB. Don't let them think.
You are correct that these friends who have 10GB or more in music do not represent the new audience that a "lower-priced" iPad mini is trying to find. But if my friends can be this ignorant about storage, what would the masses think about an 8GB iPad mini? Again, just give them 16GB... don't let them think or worry.
If Apple offers adequate value with the iPad mini, I am confident that those restaurant owners would not worry about the premium paid for the 16GB base model. Providing solutions is important. The iPad mini would pay for itself.
On the topic of confidence, it would worry me if Apple introduces the iPad mini 8GB at $199. It would indicate that they aren't confident in its value.
I am not sure what is really needed in schools. Maybe they could put all the "stuff" on a server or use some cloud service, and an 8GB device would be "enough." Or they might need 64GB for all the students who come into the science lab (each student would have his/her own log-in and folders). I don't know. But if they do need an 8GB device, Apple could provide them directly like they did with the eMac or the lower-priced iBook's.
Others have mentioned that infrastructure/device management solutions in education markets could make up for the lack of local storage in an 8 GB iPad. However, no one's saying who will manage that infrastructure. Will 3rd grade 8 year olds delete iBooks? The teacher? Will schools hire IT managers? Your local underfunded public school Who will manage these devices? Apple will need a very, very robust IT support system available to education institutions.
Perceived value? So you think the $49 iPod Shuffle makes the iPod Touch look like crap because it starts at $49? What about the 8GB iPhone they sell making the 64GB iPhone look like crap? The perceived value is that you can spend a little more for a lot more storage that could benefit you as a user if you plan to grow into it. The perceived value is that you aren't buying the cheapest model like some cheapskate. There is a reason companies offer the good, better, best tiers instead of just a single best option.
You're still looking at this from the perspective of you and your friends and not from those that don't need to store a lot of data on the device. Again, you can look at the 8GB iPhone 4 now on sale as proof that it 1) is still a viable capacity for Apple, and 2) not something that weakens the iPhone brand. Do people commonly put their songs on tablets over a pocketable device? I certainly don't which is why I have so much room on my iPad.
I have no problem with that but it's not available so if you want detailed info you can get a whole lot more from Wikipedia than you can from linear notes. You can even copy info into the song under lyrics. It would be nice if Apple offered something better but I can't imagine there are times when you have your CD jewel case with you but aren't close to an internet connection.
There are plenty of ways this can happen. Apple has a great system in place for locking down these devices and pushing and pulling files as needed. There will surely be some education and infrastructure but if the TCO is less than other methods then it's a win-win for educators and students.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carthusia
I would want the data concise and local. If I'm offline, I cannot access Wikipedia. I rarely see additional inside album art, back cover art, etc on Wikipedia. Not to mention, less mainstream artists may be less likely to have Wikipedia contributors posting that info. Will labels just stop making album art as music increasingly goes digital? I'm a bit of a vinyl collector, so it just happens to mean a lot to me.
Having a small "info" icon or tapping on the album art to flip to liner notes inside Music app would be a more elegant solution than scrolling through Wikipedia. If "Go to Wikipedia for that artist/album info" actually reflects Apple's stance, then, WOW. Just....WOW.
I think Apple will offer what you want "later." Just don't know when. They will gradually improve and increase the value of their software services.
I'm into reading the album notes and musicians' names and info too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
I have no problem with that but it's not available so if you want detailed info you can get a whole lot more from Wikipedia than you can from linear notes. You can even copy info into the song under lyrics. It would be nice if Apple offered something better but I can't imagine there are times when you have your CD jewel case with you but aren't close to an internet connection.
Pretty soon you will not be able to find any place on earth without cell signal. There are still a few places that are out of range but you really have to be out in the middle of nowhere.
Anyway thanks for the tip on Wikipedia for band info. I never thought about looking for it. I'm more into just listening and haven't really been that curious about the band details. Just as a test I was listening to Radio Paradise which plays a lot of unusual music and over a period of about a half hour I searched for each band's Wikipedia page and everyone was there although one was in French. Pretty cool. It would be nice if Apple could link to that page from iTunes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
There are plenty of ways this can happen. Apple has a great system in place for locking down these devices and pushing and pulling files as needed. There will surely be some education and infrastructure but if the TCO is less than other methods then it's a win-win for educators and students.
Quote:
Originally Posted by melmel
I think Apple will offer what you want "later." Just don't know when. They will gradually improve and increase the value of their software services.
I'm into reading the album notes and musicians' names and info too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone
Pretty soon you will not be able to find any place on earth without cell signal. There are still a few places that are out of range but you really have to be out in the middle of nowhere.
Anyway thanks for the tip on Wikipedia for band info. I never thought about looking for it. I'm more into just listening and haven't really been that curious about the band details. Just as a test I was listening to Radio Paradise which plays a lot of unusual music and over a period of about a half hour I searched for each band's Wikipedia page and everyone was there although one was in French. Pretty cool. It would be nice if Apple could link to that page from iTunes.
Come to think of it, an IMDB-style app for music would be amazing. The IMDB app is one of my most frequently-used iPhone apps.
Shazam has a link to Wikipedia (among other places) when you locate a song. I've found that very helpful over the years. Wikipedia is great for that info you would never find in liner notes. I'd rather give up Google search before I give up Wikipedia as a resource.
That would be nice. IMDb already has video games and pornos in their library so I don't know why haven't expanded to music (or at least music videos) and commercials.
OT: I find it interesting how unchallenged in the market IMDb has been over the years.
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The entry level price is also more than I had expected which makes me wonder if the A5 in the iPod Touch will be used or if I gauged the cost of that 163 PPI 1024x768 display properly or if they will use that display at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
Perceived value? So you think the $49 iPod Shuffle makes the iPod Touch look like crap because it starts at $49? What about the 8GB iPhone they sell making the 64GB iPhone look like crap? The perceived value is that you can spend a little more for a lot more storage that could benefit you as a user if you plan to grow into it. The perceived value is that you aren't buying the cheapest model like some cheapskate. There is a reason companies offer the good, better, best tiers instead of just a single best option.
You're still looking at this from the perspective of you and your friends and not from those that don't need to store a lot of data on the device. Again, you can look at the 8GB iPhone 4 now on sale as proof that it 1) is still a viable capacity for Apple, and 2) not something that weakens the iPhone brand. Do people commonly put their songs on tablets over a pocketable device? I certainly don't which is why I have so much room on my iPad.
I did read your response carefully.
There is very little competition in the mp3-player space. Every iPod line and model is golden, even the 160GB Classic at $249. Apple has done their research and has priced each one "correctly" (with a premium). That means the "perceived" values match the prices.
I don't understand what you were trying to do with the iPod comparisons. The $49 2GB Shuffle does not make the Touch look bad. They belong to different lines of the iPod brand. But a $49 500MB Shuffle would make the Shuffle itself look bad. A $249 Classic with 30GB would look bad. That is, compared to Samsung's current (and ugly) mp3 players and their prices.
People may love the Apple brand, but they are also somewhat aware of what the competitors are offering. An 8GB $250 iPad mini would look bad compared to the Nexus 7. We can argue about the benefits of the Apple ecosystem and quality, and we might talk about how even 4GB would be enough for you and me, because all of our music and stuff are on the iPhone anyway. Well, you know what? I think you and I would still consider the iPad mini even if it only had 4GB (only one capacity). But I'm not talking about you and me. I'm also not talking about the people on this board.
Not everyone knows or understands software or even the differences between iOS and Android. Obviously, for you and me, iOS offers much much much more value. But not everyone can appreciate it; they might be uninformed or misinformed. So when they are shopping for a small tablet, they see the iPad mini and Nexus 7. They may not have the time to read 10 online reviews and ask questions on a board. They may not have enough time to test them out in a store. That is when perceived value comes in.
I think 16GB is that threshold where people don't worry about capacity.
When all Android tablets are priced at or below $250 and have 32GB, a $250 iPad mini with 8GB DEFINITELY looks bad. Maybe this audience cannot "perceive" the value of iOS and everything Apple. They are only "perceiving" things through meaningless numbers and misinformation. It also doesn't help if evil salespeople are trying to steer the customer to an Android device just so they can get a higher commission or whatever.
"Good, better, best" is a great system. I do not believe Apple wants their customers to feel like cheapskates just because they bought the base model. Apple values their customers and wants them to feel valued too. Just start the iPad mini with 16GB. Fewer worries from customers, easier sales.
I already gave the reasons on why the 8GB iPhone 4 is doing fine. In that situation, yes, you KNOW that you are a cheapo for getting the "free" iPhone (and accept it). Moreover, that is NOT the "base model" of the iPhone. The base model of the iPhone is the 16GB iPhone 5. The iPhone 4 is the model from two years ago. Given iPhone's publicity and marketing, even regular joes know about the 4S after it and the current iPhone 5. Even my grandma knows.
Since the 8GB iPhone 4 is free from the carriers, this iPhone 4 has a lower "perceived" value. The expectations would be lower. The users won't baby the phone as much. But at the same time, with Apple's iOS magic, even the free iPhone 4 works better than the "newer" Android phones (these users realize this when checking out their peers' Android phones). The iPhone 4 experience even surpasses their lowered expectations. They will probably get the next iPhone too. Damn, Apple is so smart.
My friends are not techies or "power" users, but I would call them "experienced" users. In general, they FEEL 8GB is too little. That is my general thinking too. I hope Tim Cook and Phil Schiller agree.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
You're still looking at this from the perspective of you and your friends and not from those that don't need to store a lot of data on the device.
Do people commonly put their songs on tablets over a pocketable device? I certainly don't which is why I have so much room on my iPad.
I personally think that you are the one who is basing others' usage patterns on your own perspective and assumptions.
I have servers, iMacs, laptops, etc, and I think you do too. We will strongly consider the iPad mini. But not everyone is like you or me. For many people, the iPad may be their main computing device. Apple is trying to extend their reach with the iPad mini and lower price points. These new users have a different usage pattern than you and me.