Unlike most. I don't think the rumored iPad mini has anything at all to do with competition.
It is pretty much impossible to goad Apple into a price war. Apple just doesn't play that stupid game of mutually assured destruction.
Look at laptops as an example. Apple is now the number one HW vendor in the USA for laptops. This is with no model less than $999. If you think Apple must respond to low priced competitors, how can they win the notebook market when they start at $1000 and the competition at $300?
IMO the Mini is a reasonable expansion of the line-up after the volumes showed this is a sustainable trend, also it is a replacement for the temporary carryover of the iPad 2.
So Apple doesn't need to meet anyones price point, but their own internal targets.
I seriously doubt those targets include a near profitless $250 starting point.
If Apple does as some rumors suggest and cut starting flash storage to just 8GB to meet a low price point, then IMO Apple has indeed lost it's way without Jobs. 8GB is laughably useless amount of storage (free?) for a multipurpose device like this.
My expectation is that Apple will instead deliver a solid, usable device at a higher price, more likely closer to $350.
Does anyone have a 16 GB iPad?
If so, please go to Settings--->General--->About--->Capacity... and post the number!
This way we can get an idea about how much flash storage iOS 6 uses on a 16 GB iPad... and extrapolate that to an 8 GB iPad.
My grandsons' 16 GB iP5 and 16 GB iP4 show 13.5 and 13.6 GB -- or iOS 6 takes 2.5 and 2.4 GB out of 16 GB.
If anyone could make a sub $100 tablet, they would get massive support from the UN and OTPC (formerly OLTPC)... but it just doesn't happen!
Actually no current tablet design would qualify for OLTPC
Needs removable battery and at least two of the three alternate charing methods of pull cord, pedal or crank among other specific and unusual requirements.
Releasing bad product, just to meet a lower price point is one place I would draw that line. Definitely.
Just for the record, I don't agree that an 8GB iPad would necessarily be a bad idea, for reason cited earlier by Gazoobee and someone else (sorry) that they can be used in education, data-gathering and point of sale. By the millions I would guess, and Apple will have something like that in mind if they do put out such a basic device, just watch.
In other words, I will assume they know what they're doing. Even if Steve is no longer there to do the strategy. Few in business can do strategy like Tim Cook. I think he's demonstrated that.
Well, rumors are that the intro price is $250. If that's true, it'll be a huge success.
If it really wants to "knock it out of the park" $250 I think is the right price-point.
Apple needs to avoid the Amazon and Google controlling the bottom and then creating a generation of customers. This "low end" price point is also important for budget-minded and also young kids.
If it's a toss up between $199 for Kindle or something else, people will jump on a slightly more expensive iPad. Even though I don't think that the iPad is really a great e-reader, it's all about the concept of "value" in a customers mind. An ebook reader with SOME multimedia capabilities versus a super media device with some reader capabilities is going to lose for anyone but a dedicated reader.
Seems like a good strategy as long as they don't stay in the race to the bottom market.
If so, please go to Settings--->General--->About--->Capacity... and post the number!
This way we can get an idea about how much flash storage iOS 6 uses on a 16 GB iPad... and extrapolate that to an 8 GB iPad.
My grandsons' 16 GB iP5 and iP4 show 13.5 and 13.6 GB -- or iOS 6 takes 2.5 and 2.4 GB out of 16 GB.
That's not quite accurate. Apple counts the capacity of NAND like HDD makers capacity, in BASE10, so your iDevice will have just over 16,000,000,000 bytes or just over 14.90 GB using BASE2.
Now, that should definitely be taken into account when you consider how much usable space you have a specific device capacity but it does not translate evenly when going to different capacity sizes. For instance, my 64GB iPad only shows a 57.2GB capacity but at 64 billion bytes I'm only starting with just over 59.60 GB with BASE2, even before formatting the OS install. The OS isn't 5 GB larger than 8GB of NAND which is only 7.45 GB using BASE2.
edit: Xcode is a litte more forthcoming with info. In BASE2 values for physical storage capacity:
If anyone could make a sub $100 tablet, they would get massive support from the UN and OTPC (formerly OLTPC)... but it just doesn't happen!
Actually no current tablet design would qualify for OLTPC
Needs removable battery and at least two of the three alternate charing methods of pull cord, pedal or crank among other specific and unusual requirements.
The charging method can be an an external device... As to the removable battery -- get the price under $100 and their hearts and minds will follow... funny, how we humans can adapt if it is in our interest to do so.
At some point they can't use the same price stepping because NAND will fall in price and the doubling increase will eventually become unwieldy."
That was the precise point I was trying to make and illustrate... before getting sidetracked on the difference between SSD and flash storage... WTF?
I thought your point was that added SSDs instead of straight-up NAND would in itself reduce the cost. In my defense I did say I wasn't sure I understood your point.
...No, I was just trying to allude to it being an act of terrorism...
When does Apple get big enough to be subject to anti-trust? Maybe they will let Microsoft live just so they can dodge that bullet.
Hmm...I almost hope Apple is subject to anti-trust, not because it's become so large or dominates its markets, but because the actions that force you into the Apple eco-system are sometimes anti-competitive. But if they have to make some compromises (like not pulling the CD/DVD drive out of every model) or making their computers with user replaceable parts like batteries, memory and drives, so that you can add a third-party's replacement parts like you used to be able to do, or full sync support for third-party applications, I think that would benefit us all.
The charging method can bean an external device... As to the removable battery -- get the price under $100 and their hearts and minds will follow... funny, how we humans can adapt if it is in our interest to do so.
Even if the tablet was $100 it would not be as well designed for the intended purpose as the one they have now for OLTPC
Like you, I don't know the answers... But, Apple is better positioned than anyone to offer a sustainable sub $100 tablet solution at a profit.
I tend to agree with you. Apple can spend less money to build an equal product. But what google and co is doing is actually selling at loss in hope to monetize the users later on with ads and apps. I believe yesterday they stated that their mobile revenues grew to 8 billion.
Hmm...I almost hope Apple is subject to anti-trust, not because it's become so large or dominates its markets, but because the actions that force you into the Apple eco-system are sometimes anti-competitive. But if they have to make some compromises (like not pulling the CD/DVD drive out of every model) or making their computers with user replaceable parts like batteries, memory and drives, so that you can add a third-party's replacement parts like you used to be able to do, or full sync support for third-party applications, I think that would benefit us all.
If it really wants to "knock it out of the park" $250 I think is the right price-point.
Apple needs to avoid the Amazon and Google controlling the bottom and then creating a generation of customers. This "low end" price point is also important for budget-minded and also young kids.
This is THE main point of doing a small, entry-level iPad, seems to me. Get the kids into the Apple ecosystem early, get their fingers and eyeballs calibrated correctly.
Hmm...I almost hope Apple is subject to anti-trust, not because it's become so large or dominates its markets, but because the actions that force you into the Apple eco-system are sometimes anti-competitive. But if they have to make some compromises (like not pulling the CD/DVD drive out of every model) or making their computers with user replaceable parts like batteries, memory and drives, so that you can add a third-party's replacement parts like you used to be able to do, or full sync support for third-party applications, I think that would benefit us all.
How is anything you said equal to anti-trust? Who is forcing you to purchase an Apple product anyway?
Tim has stated they don't want to leave a price umbrella for competitors.
A $250 entry price point avoids the race to the bottom while leaving pretty much no umbrella for anyone not subsidizing their tablets from other sources. Given the volumes Apple should be able to build a tablet cheaper than anyone else and it strikes me that if Google can break even on the 8GB Nexus 7 at $199 then Apple can make a profit at $250.
While that price point cannibalizes the $299 iPod Touch that's okay. Better Apple do it than Amazon or Google.
8GB is viable if they can add streaming from iCloud for purchased content (movies and textbooks). It's tight for apps.
One alternative is that the 4G capable models start at $199 with 2 year contract for AT&T and Verizon $20 shared data plans and the non-4G ones start higher priced around the $299 mark for 16GB.
Hmm...I almost hope Apple is subject to anti-trust, not because it's become so large or dominates its markets, but because the actions that force you into the Apple eco-system are sometimes anti-competitive. But if they have to make some compromises (like not pulling the CD/DVD drive out of every model) or making their computers with user replaceable parts like batteries, memory and drives, so that you can add a third-party's replacement parts like you used to be able to do, or full sync support for third-party applications, I think that would benefit us all.
I guess you're the kind of guy who likes to take the weekend to put new headers on his Toyota. Good luck adapting to modern life.
Comments
People continue to be stupid.
Originally Posted by Snowdog65
Releasing bad product, just to meet a lower price point is one place I would draw that line. Definitely.
… But you're not drawing it ju~st a little earlier?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
… But you're not drawing it ju~st a little earlier?
I did say, if they do as rumored.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowdog65
Unlike most. I don't think the rumored iPad mini has anything at all to do with competition.
It is pretty much impossible to goad Apple into a price war. Apple just doesn't play that stupid game of mutually assured destruction.
Look at laptops as an example. Apple is now the number one HW vendor in the USA for laptops. This is with no model less than $999. If you think Apple must respond to low priced competitors, how can they win the notebook market when they start at $1000 and the competition at $300?
IMO the Mini is a reasonable expansion of the line-up after the volumes showed this is a sustainable trend, also it is a replacement for the temporary carryover of the iPad 2.
So Apple doesn't need to meet anyones price point, but their own internal targets.
I seriously doubt those targets include a near profitless $250 starting point.
If Apple does as some rumors suggest and cut starting flash storage to just 8GB to meet a low price point, then IMO Apple has indeed lost it's way without Jobs. 8GB is laughably useless amount of storage (free?) for a multipurpose device like this.
My expectation is that Apple will instead deliver a solid, usable device at a higher price, more likely closer to $350.
Does anyone have a 16 GB iPad?
If so, please go to Settings--->General--->About--->Capacity... and post the number!
This way we can get an idea about how much flash storage iOS 6 uses on a 16 GB iPad... and extrapolate that to an 8 GB iPad.
My grandsons' 16 GB iP5 and 16 GB iP4 show 13.5 and 13.6 GB -- or iOS 6 takes 2.5 and 2.4 GB out of 16 GB.
Better to rant now and then say Apple must have listened to you at the last minute. /s
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum
If anyone could make a sub $100 tablet, they would get massive support from the UN and OTPC (formerly OLTPC)... but it just doesn't happen!
Actually no current tablet design would qualify for OLTPC
Needs removable battery and at least two of the three alternate charing methods of pull cord, pedal or crank among other specific and unusual requirements.
Just for the record, I don't agree that an 8GB iPad would necessarily be a bad idea, for reason cited earlier by Gazoobee and someone else (sorry) that they can be used in education, data-gathering and point of sale. By the millions I would guess, and Apple will have something like that in mind if they do put out such a basic device, just watch.
In other words, I will assume they know what they're doing. Even if Steve is no longer there to do the strategy. Few in business can do strategy like Tim Cook. I think he's demonstrated that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimUSCA
Well, rumors are that the intro price is $250. If that's true, it'll be a huge success.
If it really wants to "knock it out of the park" $250 I think is the right price-point.
Apple needs to avoid the Amazon and Google controlling the bottom and then creating a generation of customers. This "low end" price point is also important for budget-minded and also young kids.
If it's a toss up between $199 for Kindle or something else, people will jump on a slightly more expensive iPad. Even though I don't think that the iPad is really a great e-reader, it's all about the concept of "value" in a customers mind. An ebook reader with SOME multimedia capabilities versus a super media device with some reader capabilities is going to lose for anyone but a dedicated reader.
Seems like a good strategy as long as they don't stay in the race to the bottom market.
That's not quite accurate. Apple counts the capacity of NAND like HDD makers capacity, in BASE10, so your iDevice will have just over 16,000,000,000 bytes or just over 14.90 GB using BASE2.
Now, that should definitely be taken into account when you consider how much usable space you have a specific device capacity but it does not translate evenly when going to different capacity sizes. For instance, my 64GB iPad only shows a 57.2GB capacity but at 64 billion bytes I'm only starting with just over 59.60 GB with BASE2, even before formatting the OS install. The OS isn't 5 GB larger than 8GB of NAND which is only 7.45 GB using BASE2.
edit: Xcode is a litte more forthcoming with info. In BASE2 values for physical storage capacity:
64 GB iPad = 61.41 GB (Legal minimum 59.6046447753906 GB for 64 GB)
32 GB iPhone 4 = 30.56 GB (Legal minimum 29.8023223876953 GB for 32GB)
16 GB iPhone 5 = 14.46 GB (Legal minimum 14.9011611938477GB for 16 GB)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum
If anyone could make a sub $100 tablet, they would get massive support from the UN and OTPC (formerly OLTPC)... but it just doesn't happen!
Actually no current tablet design would qualify for OLTPC
Needs removable battery and at least two of the three alternate charing methods of pull cord, pedal or crank among other specific and unusual requirements.
The charging method can be an an external device... As to the removable battery -- get the price under $100 and their hearts and minds will follow... funny, how we humans can adapt if it is in our interest to do so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum
"
At some point they can't use the same price stepping because NAND will fall in price and the doubling increase will eventually become unwieldy."
That was the precise point I was trying to make and illustrate... before getting sidetracked on the difference between SSD and flash storage... WTF?
I thought your point was that added SSDs instead of straight-up NAND would in itself reduce the cost. In my defense I did say I wasn't sure I understood your point.
...No, I was just trying to allude to it being an act of terrorism...
16 GB iPad I: 13.8 capacity
Quote:
Originally Posted by philipm
Yes, suck profits from the competition.
When does Apple get big enough to be subject to anti-trust? Maybe they will let Microsoft live just so they can dodge that bullet.
Hmm...I almost hope Apple is subject to anti-trust, not because it's become so large or dominates its markets, but because the actions that force you into the Apple eco-system are sometimes anti-competitive. But if they have to make some compromises (like not pulling the CD/DVD drive out of every model) or making their computers with user replaceable parts like batteries, memory and drives, so that you can add a third-party's replacement parts like you used to be able to do, or full sync support for third-party applications, I think that would benefit us all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum
The charging method can bean an external device... As to the removable battery -- get the price under $100 and their hearts and minds will follow... funny, how we humans can adapt if it is in our interest to do so.
Even if the tablet was $100 it would not be as well designed for the intended purpose as the one they have now for OLTPC
I tend to agree with you. Apple can spend less money to build an equal product. But what google and co is doing is actually selling at loss in hope to monetize the users later on with ads and apps. I believe yesterday they stated that their mobile revenues grew to 8 billion.
I agree with none of what you stated.
This is THE main point of doing a small, entry-level iPad, seems to me. Get the kids into the Apple ecosystem early, get their fingers and eyeballs calibrated correctly.
Tim has stated they don't want to leave a price umbrella for competitors.
A $250 entry price point avoids the race to the bottom while leaving pretty much no umbrella for anyone not subsidizing their tablets from other sources. Given the volumes Apple should be able to build a tablet cheaper than anyone else and it strikes me that if Google can break even on the 8GB Nexus 7 at $199 then Apple can make a profit at $250.
While that price point cannibalizes the $299 iPod Touch that's okay. Better Apple do it than Amazon or Google.
8GB is viable if they can add streaming from iCloud for purchased content (movies and textbooks). It's tight for apps.
One alternative is that the 4G capable models start at $199 with 2 year contract for AT&T and Verizon $20 shared data plans and the non-4G ones start higher priced around the $299 mark for 16GB.
I guess you're the kind of guy who likes to take the weekend to put new headers on his Toyota. Good luck adapting to modern life.