GPU or not I'd rather see them go back to the power brick solution. Why? Well it makes it easy to implement the Mini for non traditional use. One example being use in RVs or boats with simple DC to DC converters. Also many embedded uses can benefit from alternative power supplies.
The power brick was huge. Look at the old Mac Mini Colo setup that sandwiched the brick between them:
For non-standard use, people can use a cheap, simple DC/AC converter:
As it is I don't see them going back to a model with a discrete GPU. Yes I would like such a model but that is today, in two years or so I'm not expecting to have that need. In a nut shell I expect performance to get "good enough" for the average user.
"Intel launched an updated graphics driver yesterday, touting OpenCL 1.2 support for its present generation Ivy Bridge processors, and last week during a press conference it claimed that was actually designed for Haswell.
Now it seems that Intel is perfectly happy to help developers make use of the GPU for computing purposes in addition to its CPU cores.
Intel talked up its collaboration with video encoding project Handbrake, claiming that its Quicksync video codec could dramatically improve encoding times.
Intel said that the GPU in Haswell chips will not only support OpenCL 1.2 but will be able to access main system memory, which opens up interesting computing possibilities if memory access is truly unbound."
If it's double the performance, that will put it at 640M class, which is fine for the vast majority of gaming and should at least accelerate computation to the same level as the 640M:
The 640M is 70% of the 650M. The 650M is roughly equivalent to the 5770 in the Mac Pro. The next Mini should be like getting an entry Mac Pro for $800.
Further I still have this belief that the Mini cold be headed to the trash heap and as such when the Mac Pro comes we will get a new consumer desktop to go with it.
But think of the RVs and boats. It needs to stay mini or:
The Mini design right now is pretty good IMO. They could flatten it out to be like a MBP but they'd have to make it sit vertically to prevent it using up a lot of desk space. Because it would have a flat side, it could have a latch and just slide on and off so they don't need to use screws.
"Intel launched an updated graphics driver yesterday, touting OpenCL 1.2 support for its present generation Ivy Bridge processors, and last week during a press conference it claimed that was actually designed for Haswell.
This is all well and good but Apple, through its drivers, has yet to support OpenCL on Intel GPUs. If you are an OpenCL user Intel GPUs simply aren't ready yet under Mac OS.
Now it seems that Intel is perfectly happy to help developers make use of the GPU for computing purposes in addition to its CPU cores.
Intel talked up its collaboration with video encoding project Handbrake, claiming that its Quicksync video codec could dramatically improve encoding times.
This is exactly why I see OpenCL support as being very important. It has already been proven out on Intel hardware on other operating systems, I'm just wondering when and if Apple will support OpenCL on Intel hardware.
Intel said that the GPU in Haswell chips will not only support OpenCL 1.2 but will be able to access main system memory, which opens up interesting computing possibilities if memory access is truly unbound."
Yep, Haswell is very exciting in this respect. Frankly we have AMD to thank for this as they push GPU integration forward.
If it's double the performance, that will put it at 640M class, which is fine for the vast majority of gaming and should at least accelerate computation to the same level as the 640M:
The 640M is 70% of the 650M. The 650M is roughly equivalent to the 5770 in the Mac Pro. The next Mini should be like getting an entry Mac Pro for $800.
But think of the RVs and boats. It needs to stay mini or:
I don't see the Mini changing radically in size, however a slight change in focus aligned with a Mac Pro refresh could have a very positive impact on sales
The Mini design right now is pretty good IMO.
It certainly isn't bad!
They could flatten it out to be like a MBP but they'd have to make it sit vertically to prevent it using up a lot of desk space. Because it would have a flat side, it could have a latch and just slide on and off so they don't need to use screws.
Number one revision ought to be an easy open case. It perplexes me that they can market a Mini successfully as a server even though disk access on the machine is a joke. Beyond that the case and power supply need to support a wider array of processors so that there is a more solid differential in performance between the base model and the top of the line model. Neither of these changes demands a massively larger case.
A larger power supply would also allow for another TB port.
The above would be minimal changes to the Mini which may or may not impact it's overall foot print. The dreamer in me would love to see more radical changes though. For one a move to solid state storage as a first class implementation on the platform. That is design the machine to support flash memory from the ground up implementing storage models on dedicated PCI-Express based cards. If Apple had any sense at all, the cards would be designed to be implemented on all of their desktops and maybe even a laptop or two. A decent format would allow for standard sized cards in the majority of the machines while Apple's Mac Pro could support 2 or 3X sized cards. The reality is there are a lot of card standards out there for solid state storage that are basically crap, this gives Apple the perfect opportunity to innovate.
Interestingly an all flash Mini type machine might end up even smaller. The limiting factor then becomes affordable heat removal for the main processor. Affordable cooling is why I suspect we won't be seeing a significantly thinner Mini anytime soon. Further, if you look at it on a volume basis, the Mini current is less than optimal for heat removal as it is. Denser electronics could allow for a refactoring of the Mini into something very different in appearance. Imagine a box 3 to 4 inches square on the face and maybe 8 inches deep. The struggle then becomes where do you put all of the I/O, this might seem radical to Apple but a couple of USB ports on the front of the machine would be nice with the rest on the backside. Such a box would sit very nicely on a shelf, the desktop or even a rack. For unconventional uses such as RVs it could be bolted almost anywhere with minimal waste of space.
I look at it as A timing thing. The Mac Pro refresh should be huge (it better be) so it might be worthwhile from the marketing standpoint to absorb some of that flash with a new Mini. For Apple it is an opportunity that doesn't come around often and could address lagging sales of both machines.
I would be game for that wizard. I love the mini though if they were planning a new consumer desktop, that might be interesting.
Mind you I don't think anything they would do would lessen the machine as a consumer product unless they completely delete it from the lineup. Frankly I think that dropping the Mini is still in the cards so to speak. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize desktop sales suck, walk into any store selling electronics and you end up searching for the desktop hardware. So yeah I see a danger in the Mini going XServe with a public suicide.
The reality is desktop hardware demand is so low these days that Apple may simply go with a two product line up. That is an iMac line and a "desktop" platform to replace the Mac Pro. That Mac Pro replacement would come in two flavors, one in the sub $1000 range with consumer hardware and another in the sub $2000 range with a bunch of high performance processors. In effect the desktop range gets trimmed to two hardware platforms.
Though would you feel the consumer Mac Pro (or let's call it the Mac) would get smaller?
I think the Mac Pro will get smaller no matter what. Today's and especially tomorrows Technology, simply doesn't demand a huge case. For the sake of simplicity it would make sense to put a consumer Mac in the same chassis as the Mac Pro. It really is a question of just how serious Apple is about the post PC era. If they really think the market is evaporating then there is little sense to market a bunch of different machines and to further spend a bunch of time and effort supporting different hardware.
In a nut shell I think this year will likely forecast Apples approach to the desktop for years to come.
I feel we're having two extremes here. One is saying, the Mac mini is gone the other is saying it's staying long term. I think there will be a middle ground.
The mini will probably be around for a few more years and then something will change.
The way Apple is going now they have a lot of good competition out there which I am happy for. Their attitude is to mighty now.What ever happens to the MM it still is a good little computer.
We're arguing back and forth yet no one has produced sales figures. Sure Apple doesn't produce commercials for anything except the iStuff and the retina MacBook Pro though what about the iMac? Is that a poor seller?
I'm curious what data suggested that. I haven't seen anything that strongly suggested one way or the other.
Apple has as much said so in one of their quarterly earnings reports. I can't remember which one but it is consistent with industry trends, indicating Mini sales down significantly in the USA. The other way to look at this is the reported splits between laptop and desktop sales. Laptop sales hover around 80% of all Mac sales now and for some quarters may exceed 80% by a considerable amount. With whatever is left over the iMac sucks up the greatest percentage of the remaining sales.
If you watch quarterly reports and also focus on the attention that the iMac gets I think it becomes obvious what is happening to the desktop market. Without the iMac, Mac sales lag coniderably.
Apple produces all the information you need to make the deduction. They report the desktop/laptop split every quarter. The desktop split has become smaller just about every quarter. The vast majority of desktop sales are iMacs.
We're arguing back and forth yet no one has produced sales figures. Sure Apple doesn't produce commercials for anything except the iStuff and the retina MacBook Pro though what about the iMac?
The iMac in fact reinforces the point, when it wasn't available Mac sales tanked. I suppose a math wiz could deduce just how big of a percentage iMacs are of the desktop line up but it is considerable.
Is that a poor seller?
No it isn't a poor seller, that is the whole point, it effectively soaks up the great majority of Apples desktop sales. I'm a bit confused actually about where the confusion comes from here, walk into any Apple store and it becomes obvious what the hot sellers are. In some cases you are lucky to find a Mini even on display.
I won't quit on Apple if they cut the mini and I probably will find something I like but I'm not sold on the iMac right now because I like the mini form factor.
We'll see though. I have a feeling Apple will find a way to adjust to my preferences.
though what about the iMac? Is that a poor seller?
In terms of a stationary machine with a full sized keyboard and larger display, you can walk in and walk out of the store with something that works as it is. The mini lacks a keyboard and mouse by default. It also lacks a display in a price range that makes sense with that model. I suspect sales are still highly skewed in favor of the 21" model.
I don't want an iMac, but if it comes to it, I'll begrudgingly accept it.
Hmm. I never thought of 'begrudging' when Apple launched the iMac that basically kickstarted the revolution of their dramatic and unprecedented business comeback.
I had Power Mac clone. It cost £2k. Before the extras. I was very excited by the iMac. It was an excellent consumer machine that put Apple and 'Mac' back on the map. It truly was the computer for the 'rest of us' as it finally delivered a Mac under 1k (despite the plethora of comments on here back in '97 that Apple should never do 'cheap'/will never do a sub 1k Mac etc, 'didn't need...etc. (Sound familiar?) Ironic that these days that Apple don't have a sub k iMac. Most of that era's excitement and sales for desktops was all about the iMac. I remember it well.
These days? My how the iMac has grown in power and style. And doubled in sales too. As a million+ seller, the iMac is doing as well as any single desktop model might by Apple or any other company.
You could think of the 21 inch iMac as the 'Air' and the 27 inch version as the Pro. Having now played with both and seen them apply to two different types of buyers...I can see how it covers the desktop consumer and the desktop pro.
The mini is for those who have no budget. The 'Pro' is for those who have no budget. If you know what I mean.
I used to think I needed a tower over an iMac. The classic x-mac. But 16 years later, it doesn't look like it's going to happen. :P The blue and white value tower became a 2k poor value tower...all these years later. And one rarely updated at that...and one out of touch with it's original market I think. At least in value, accessibility and power as well as relevance. In that respect, I think a top end or loaded iMac has assumed the mantle.
In short, I wanted a tower but have found the iMac would crush the carcass of many towers. Astonishing design and power with value and the best GPU yet in an iMac with 8 gigs of ram and plug in more or less what you would like externally to give you all the SSD or RAID you want.
Who knows. It may have 6 or 8 core cpus in it one day...
It will only make it more compelling. CPUs will evolve. So will the iMac.
That said, I think we'll see a new 'Pro' this year. I hope to see it radically redesigned to give people the access they wish for. In price. In performance. In upgradeability. But the next model looks very vulnerable to being the last.
Going to the Oxford Street Apple store in London...and a Premium reseller elsewhere...I noticed no Mac Pros anywhere to be seen.
Laptops, iPads, iPhones and iMacs. In that order I think...
Comments
The power brick was huge. Look at the old Mac Mini Colo setup that sandwiched the brick between them:
For non-standard use, people can use a cheap, simple DC/AC converter:
http://www.amazon.com/BESTEK-inverter-adapter-charger-notebook/dp/B003Q54V88
It has 100W max.
Yeah, IGPs should be fine from this point on:
http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/2259001/intel-releases-opencl-sdk-for-upcoming-haswell-chips
"Intel launched an updated graphics driver yesterday, touting OpenCL 1.2 support for its present generation Ivy Bridge processors, and last week during a press conference it claimed that was actually designed for Haswell.
Now it seems that Intel is perfectly happy to help developers make use of the GPU for computing purposes in addition to its CPU cores.
Intel talked up its collaboration with video encoding project Handbrake, claiming that its Quicksync video codec could dramatically improve encoding times.
Intel said that the GPU in Haswell chips will not only support OpenCL 1.2 but will be able to access main system memory, which opens up interesting computing possibilities if memory access is truly unbound."
If it's double the performance, that will put it at 640M class, which is fine for the vast majority of gaming and should at least accelerate computation to the same level as the 640M:
http://www.notebookcheck.net/NVIDIA-GeForce-GT-640M.71579.0.html
The 640M is 70% of the 650M. The 650M is roughly equivalent to the 5770 in the Mac Pro. The next Mini should be like getting an entry Mac Pro for $800.
But think of the RVs and boats. It needs to stay mini or:
The Mini design right now is pretty good IMO. They could flatten it out to be like a MBP but they'd have to make it sit vertically to prevent it using up a lot of desk space. Because it would have a flat side, it could have a latch and just slide on and off so they don't need to use screws.
Number one revision ought to be an easy open case. It perplexes me that they can market a Mini successfully as a server even though disk access on the machine is a joke. Beyond that the case and power supply need to support a wider array of processors so that there is a more solid differential in performance between the base model and the top of the line model. Neither of these changes demands a massively larger case.
A larger power supply would also allow for another TB port.
The above would be minimal changes to the Mini which may or may not impact it's overall foot print. The dreamer in me would love to see more radical changes though. For one a move to solid state storage as a first class implementation on the platform. That is design the machine to support flash memory from the ground up implementing storage models on dedicated PCI-Express based cards. If Apple had any sense at all, the cards would be designed to be implemented on all of their desktops and maybe even a laptop or two. A decent format would allow for standard sized cards in the majority of the machines while Apple's Mac Pro could support 2 or 3X sized cards. The reality is there are a lot of card standards out there for solid state storage that are basically crap, this gives Apple the perfect opportunity to innovate.
Interestingly an all flash Mini type machine might end up even smaller. The limiting factor then becomes affordable heat removal for the main processor. Affordable cooling is why I suspect we won't be seeing a significantly thinner Mini anytime soon. Further, if you look at it on a volume basis, the Mini current is less than optimal for heat removal as it is. Denser electronics could allow for a refactoring of the Mini into something very different in appearance. Imagine a box 3 to 4 inches square on the face and maybe 8 inches deep. The struggle then becomes where do you put all of the I/O, this might seem radical to Apple but a couple of USB ports on the front of the machine would be nice with the rest on the backside. Such a box would sit very nicely on a shelf, the desktop or even a rack. For unconventional uses such as RVs it could be bolted almost anywhere with minimal waste of space.
Mind you I don't think anything they would do would lessen the machine as a consumer product unless they completely delete it from the lineup. Frankly I think that dropping the Mini is still in the cards so to speak. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize desktop sales suck, walk into any store selling electronics and you end up searching for the desktop hardware. So yeah I see a danger in the Mini going XServe with a public suicide.
The reality is desktop hardware demand is so low these days that Apple may simply go with a two product line up. That is an iMac line and a "desktop" platform to replace the Mac Pro. That Mac Pro replacement would come in two flavors, one in the sub $1000 range with consumer hardware and another in the sub $2000 range with a bunch of high performance processors. In effect the desktop range gets trimmed to two hardware platforms.
I think the Mac Pro will get smaller no matter what. Today's and especially tomorrows Technology, simply doesn't demand a huge case. For the sake of simplicity it would make sense to put a consumer Mac in the same chassis as the Mac Pro. It really is a question of just how serious Apple is about the post PC era. If they really think the market is evaporating then there is little sense to market a bunch of different machines and to further spend a bunch of time and effort supporting different hardware.
In a nut shell I think this year will likely forecast Apples approach to the desktop for years to come.
100% wrong . MM is a popular little PC and it will around for quite a while.
The mini will probably be around for a few more years and then something will change.
It is a unit suffering from declining sales just like the Mac Pro. The decline might not be as step as the Mac Pro but a decline is a decline.
By the way I believe a low end solution will be around for awhile, I'm just not convinced that it will be in the form of the Mini.
The way Apple is going now they have a lot of good competition out there which I am happy for. Their attitude is to mighty now.What ever happens to the MM it still is a good little computer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69
It is a unit suffering from declining sales just like the Mac Pro. The decline might not be as step as the Mac Pro but a decline is a decline.
By the way I believe a low end solution will be around for awhile, I'm just not convinced that it will be in the form of the Mini.
I'm curious what data suggested that. I haven't seen anything that strongly suggested one way or the other.
Apple has as much said so in one of their quarterly earnings reports. I can't remember which one but it is consistent with industry trends, indicating Mini sales down significantly in the USA. The other way to look at this is the reported splits between laptop and desktop sales. Laptop sales hover around 80% of all Mac sales now and for some quarters may exceed 80% by a considerable amount. With whatever is left over the iMac sucks up the greatest percentage of the remaining sales.
If you watch quarterly reports and also focus on the attention that the iMac gets I think it becomes obvious what is happening to the desktop market. Without the iMac, Mac sales lag coniderably.
The iMac in fact reinforces the point, when it wasn't available Mac sales tanked. I suppose a math wiz could deduce just how big of a percentage iMacs are of the desktop line up but it is considerable.
No it isn't a poor seller, that is the whole point, it effectively soaks up the great majority of Apples desktop sales. I'm a bit confused actually about where the confusion comes from here, walk into any Apple store and it becomes obvious what the hot sellers are. In some cases you are lucky to find a Mini even on display.
We'll see though. I have a feeling Apple will find a way to adjust to my preferences.
Wishful thinking.
You think I'm just going to go back to Windows? I've only experienced the Mac platform for what will be two years in October.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winter
though what about the iMac? Is that a poor seller?
In terms of a stationary machine with a full sized keyboard and larger display, you can walk in and walk out of the store with something that works as it is. The mini lacks a keyboard and mouse by default. It also lacks a display in a price range that makes sense with that model. I suspect sales are still highly skewed in favor of the 21" model.
Quote:
I don't want an iMac, but if it comes to it, I'll begrudgingly accept it.
Hmm. I never thought of 'begrudging' when Apple launched the iMac that basically kickstarted the revolution of their dramatic and unprecedented business comeback.
I had Power Mac clone. It cost £2k. Before the extras. I was very excited by the iMac. It was an excellent consumer machine that put Apple and 'Mac' back on the map. It truly was the computer for the 'rest of us' as it finally delivered a Mac under 1k (despite the plethora of comments on here back in '97 that Apple should never do 'cheap'/will never do a sub 1k Mac etc, 'didn't need...etc. (Sound familiar?) Ironic that these days that Apple don't have a sub k iMac. Most of that era's excitement and sales for desktops was all about the iMac. I remember it well.
These days? My how the iMac has grown in power and style. And doubled in sales too. As a million+ seller, the iMac is doing as well as any single desktop model might by Apple or any other company.
You could think of the 21 inch iMac as the 'Air' and the 27 inch version as the Pro. Having now played with both and seen them apply to two different types of buyers...I can see how it covers the desktop consumer and the desktop pro.
The mini is for those who have no budget. The 'Pro' is for those who have no budget. If you know what I mean.
I used to think I needed a tower over an iMac. The classic x-mac. But 16 years later, it doesn't look like it's going to happen. :P The blue and white value tower became a 2k poor value tower...all these years later. And one rarely updated at that...and one out of touch with it's original market I think. At least in value, accessibility and power as well as relevance. In that respect, I think a top end or loaded iMac has assumed the mantle.
In short, I wanted a tower but have found the iMac would crush the carcass of many towers. Astonishing design and power with value and the best GPU yet in an iMac with 8 gigs of ram and plug in more or less what you would like externally to give you all the SSD or RAID you want.
Who knows. It may have 6 or 8 core cpus in it one day...
It will only make it more compelling. CPUs will evolve. So will the iMac.
That said, I think we'll see a new 'Pro' this year. I hope to see it radically redesigned to give people the access they wish for. In price. In performance. In upgradeability. But the next model looks very vulnerable to being the last.
Going to the Oxford Street Apple store in London...and a Premium reseller elsewhere...I noticed no Mac Pros anywhere to be seen.
Laptops, iPads, iPhones and iMacs. In that order I think...
Lemon Bon Bon.