A point in time will come when it doesn't make sense to put a discrete GPU on anything other than maybe a high end work station. That isn't today but Haswell will be very close. The reality is process shrinks out so much space on the average chip that the performance of the integrated GPUs will only go up. Further that integration will lead to heterogeneous systems where the GPU is an equal on the memory bus. This will lead to much more interesting use of the GPU in future operating systems.
As to under cutting sales, yes that is happening. I was very interested in picking up a new Mini with a discrete GPU this year but that was not to be. The current GPU just doesn't cut the mustard and Apple has yet to deliver support for OpenCL on Intels GPU. So no new Mini this year for me. Apple basically blew it with the current rev Mini.
So the question in my mind is this will Apple deliver a suitable Haswell based Mini? Frankly due to their seemingly overwhelming desire to castrate the machine I don't hold out a lot of hope for the Haswell based Mini. That doesn't mean Apple couldn't produce a viable Mini just that their history with the Mini isn't good. So it is really a question of what could be produced against what Apple does produce. If a Haswell Mini comes out without the GT3 in one model, without OpenCL support and without a strong driver update in the first place; then yeah they are limiting sales significantly.
It will be very interesting to see where Apples earnings report goes because honestly I think the marketing team needs to be slapped senseless. The biggest problem Apple has with the Mini right now is that the high end machines simply don't justify their expense over the entry level machine. I mean really what is in the "server" model that justifies the $1000 price tag. Don't even get me started on the middle of the road model. Part of this nonsense is Apples history of undervaluing the GPU in their machines. The only way to address this is for customers to vote with their feet and buy alternative hardware.
I know I will be buying a mini this year because I want one and I will probably give my old one to my mother since she wants a computer herself. I will probably purchase a quad core i7 mini with an SSD and expect it to come with the HD4600 or GT2 graphics which will be a nice jump over my dual core i5 with HD3000 graphics.
As for the iMac, I don't know what is going to happen there. To me, they need to increase the standard video memory for me to consider purchasing one.
Let me ask this, how are iMacs in terms of dead pixels?
You think mac is the greatest product in the world. Guess what you are wrong.Over priced and not great quality control involved in their product lines.
A point in time will come when it doesn't make sense to put a discrete GPU on anything other than maybe a high end work station. That isn't today but Haswell will be very close. The reality is process shrinks out so much space on the average chip that the performance of the integrated GPUs will only go up. Further that integration will lead to heterogeneous systems where the GPU is an equal on the memory bus. This will lead to much more interesting use of the GPU in future operating systems.
As to under cutting sales, yes that is happening. I was very interested in picking up a new Mini with a discrete GPU this year but that was not to be. The current GPU just doesn't cut the mustard and Apple has yet to deliver support for OpenCL on Intels GPU. So no new Mini this year for me. Apple basically blew it with the current rev Mini.
So the question in my mind is this will Apple deliver a suitable Haswell based Mini? Frankly due to their seemingly overwhelming desire to castrate the machine I don't hold out a lot of hope for the Haswell based Mini. That doesn't mean Apple couldn't produce a viable Mini just that their history with the Mini isn't good. So it is really a question of what could be produced against what Apple does produce. If a Haswell Mini comes out without the GT3 in one model, without OpenCL support and without a strong driver update in the first place; then yeah they are limiting sales significantly.
It will be very interesting to see where Apples earnings report goes because honestly I think the marketing team needs to be slapped senseless. The biggest problem Apple has with the Mini right now is that the high end machines simply don't justify their expense over the entry level machine. I mean really what is in the "server" model that justifies the $1000 price tag. Don't even get me started on the middle of the road model. Part of this nonsense is Apples history of undervaluing the GPU in their machines. The only way to address this is for customers to vote with their feet and buy alternative hardware.
Apple are all about the upsell. Otherwise they wouldn't have castrated the Mini's GPU's (or lack of) capabilities.
You can think the marketing team needs slapping. But Apple have reaped Billions in profit...
...after long since leaving the notion behind of an upgradable tower or cube concept. (The G3 Blue and White tower and the Cube are: history.)
...and it doesn't look like those days are coming back. We've been on overpriced Mac Pros for ten years now. That's your tinker box, Wizard.
It's out of date and it will cost you.
Keep hoping for something else though...hope is part of the human condition.
The closest you're going to get is an overpriced Mini with integrated crappics that will be a 'bit' better with Haswell or an over (heh) Pro if Apple gets around to updating it.
Apple's all about the AIO. (But weren't they always?) And that's the bulk of 'Macs' they sell. Almost 5 million like Apple Mac AIOs.
And they perform 'just fine' for the majority...otherwise I'd guess they'd throw together an overclocked, sli-rage machine for a cheaper price.
Just buy yourself a Windows tower and stick Linux on it. You can have whatever gpu you like. And there's plenty of 'cube' style shuttle cases for you to wonder re: form factor. Add a screw driver and you'll be happy.
Rather than wishing Apple would cater just to you and a 'few' others re: a Cube concept they left behind years ago...
I know I will be buying a mini this year because I want one and I will probably give my old one to my mother since she wants a computer herself. I will probably purchase a quad core i7 mini with an SSD and expect it to come with the HD4600 or GT2 graphics which will be a nice jump over my dual core i5 with HD3000 graphics.
As for the iMac, I don't know what is going to happen there. To me, they need to increase the standard video memory for me to consider purchasing one.
Let me ask this, how are iMacs in terms of dead pixels?
I don't like Apple's sharp business practices which apply to their 'keen' pricing on Mini, iMac or Pro.
They're overpriced. And they skin you for extra vram or gpu upgrades or fusion upgrades...and skin you harder for a DVD option they just dropped. Bloody cheek? Well, they're sitting on billions and I'm not...
I've had two iMacs. One of which I just sold to my cousin £450. Which went towards my top of the line iMac purchase so my new iMac cost me £1800 instead of £2250. I think it was over priced. But I wanted the fusion, i7, dvd and 680mx.
No dead pixels on my last iMac after 4+ years. None on my new purchase. Very cool under load. The last run ran wayyyyyy hotter. This new beast is very cool to the touch.
I've helped a PC user over to the Apple side. They bought an iMac 21incher. Up from the base model. 512megs vram. Sounds annoying. But in practice? 650GT very impressive performer. Plenty of ram. Gorgeous 21 inch screen. I rate the iMac screens. This one seems less reflective. But I didn't really notice the last one. I have the screen away from facing windows.
Why don't you and your Mum go halves on a non base iMac 21incher. Trust me, you'll be pleasantly surprised.
I doubt the Haswell mini will quite catch the 650GT. But it may offer more than the 4000.
I'm sure if you are used to the mini 'graphics' you have, Haswell's 'gpu' improvements will seem significant.
If you're prepared to wait it out, see what the mini offers. Otherwise...go halves with you Mum on a 21inch iMac non base model.
2 gigs of vram? Less of an issue than you might think...for a good many things. (But that doesn't mean Apple shouldn't improve Vram amounts. I've long been a critic of their sharp penny pinching re: this and ram...)
Yeah, if you went halves with your Mum on the non-base iMac it would cost you what? £600-ish pounds?
For me, an integrated monitor is a non-issue (I didn't always think that...as an ex-Power Tower users...) but in practice, the screens have been great. Vibrant and elegant machines with far less wires. (The wires around my Power Tower could be a bit tiresome with cables everywhere...)
The new iMac with wireless set up looks light years ahead of all that.
After the GPU power of the 680MX (for a while making the iMac a top ten gpu performer - simply amazing!) being included anything could happen.
Look at the introduction of the iMac all those years ago. A curvy if dumpy and plucky G3 performer for around £1k. Apple drove the price as low as £545 here in the UK!
Suddenly the Mini doesn't look so good value these days? No keyboard, mouse or screen! And about the same price from all those years ago.
The iMac these days? Has grown up. So much so, no single model under 1K!!! (A mistake, I think...)
But performance wise? The i7, 8 gigs of ram, 1 tb fusion drive with 680mx look light years ahead of the iMac G3 range from years ago.
The iMac has moved up the performance ladder and slid in value to a degree. But a 27 inch screen is included and adds great value. Sure, some would like the screen removed and sold as a box they could 'tinker' with.
So it goes.
I think as far as desktop models goes? Apple shows its hand for the desktop with the iMac.
The computer disappears. (Steve said as much in the keynotes all those years ago...)
It's just a screen with a control method k/b and mouse.
...and they next logical conclusion or extension of that is the iPad....
...to the Mac in your pocket, the iPhone.
Apple are all about making the traditional 'nerd' designs disappear and focus on what it is you're doing.
If you want a couple of SSDs to expand your iMac or a RAID array Thunderbolt set up...plug it in.
I don't need the DVD player all the time. I can just plug it in. I've used mine once to install Win 7 on bootcamp. Uhm. That's it.
A handful of people lamenting the Pro or Cube or 'mid range' desktop on here are dwarfed by the sales of a million iMacs and 4 million laptop (new desktop/AIOs).
The iMac and the Macbook Pro are Apple's desktop 'mid tower.'
Typically Apple, they don't look like boxes with cables...or have separate screens.
They reflect the original 'Mac.'
It's back to 1984 with Apple's desktop future. It's flatter, thinner, cooler and value added.
Any 'fuss' is removed. Outmoded features are dropped. Cables vanish.
Look in any Apple store and the reality of Apple's computing for the rest of 'us' is staring us in the face.
You'll be lucky to see a Pro (even before the Euro ban) and even the iMacs are further back in the store...you may see the 'odd' mini...
It's not like iMacs are made out of balsa wood and pritt sticked together.
The aluminium and glass exude quality.
The LED is vibrant and punchy with great colour.
The 680MX drives a very hi-res screen. It's very powerful and handles 3D with ease. (Even the 650GT is no slouch...for 1080p...)
8 gigs of ram - plenty. I remember when Photoshop and Lightwave suggested 256 megs of ram...
1TB, loads of space.
The lack of desktop clutter with cables.
The i7 is the iMac's coming of age cpu. It's great. Very, very accomplished...performer.
If you want to get inside the machine you'll be disappointed. But it's not really necessary. It's a world class machine designed by the best AIO team in the world. If you want extra storage punch? There's USB and TB ports to 'plug it in.'
It's a work of art.
In use, it's a dream. But without Mac OS X it would be all for nothing.
For me, it's the ultimate desktop Mac...or Mac of any kind. (Though the iMac's legacy will no doubt be the iPad...and the iPhone...) Other's can wait for a pro or a mini with improved graphics. You'll be waiting a while though.
In the meantime...there's value and(!) performance with the iMac.
I have to read all of your posts more thoroughly to really digest them but if I buy an iMac it will be with my money only and for me only, not to share. : P
My current mini has an SSD in it (Samsung 470) so it flies for basic use.
Apple are all about the upsell. Otherwise they wouldn't have castrated the Mini's GPU's (or lack of) capabilities.
You can think the marketing team needs slapping. But Apple have reaped Billions in profit...
Not from the Mac desktop line up. It is pretty silly to equate Apples current success with success of the desktop line up. Sales are flat for the iMac and receding for the Mac Pro and Mini. We can argue about why but immcertainthe big issue is that nobody wants to pay good money for the configurations Apple offers.
...after long since leaving the notion behind of an upgradable tower or cube concept. (The G3 Blue and White tower and the Cube are: history.)
Which has effectively locked Apple out of many use cases for years now. It is one reason businesses resist using Mac hardware for the run of the mill business needs.
...and it doesn't look like those days are coming back. We've been on overpriced Mac Pros for ten years now. That's your tinker box, Wizard.
Well I'm not sure the Mac Pro has been as overpriced as it has been in the last couple of years. The problem is it really seems like nobody at Apple grasps why the machine isn't selling well. Being perceived as overpriced and underpowered is death in the workstation market.
In a nut shell you really have to wonder about a management team that would let a product like the Mac Pro slip as much as it has. It use to be a product worth buying, now it is an outdated machine that hasn't had a decent update in years and sadly doesn't support some of the most important technologies Apple has.
It's out of date and it will cost you.
Exactly! So who's fault is that?
Keep hoping for something else though...hope is part of the human condition.
The hope for something else is related to the idea that Apple might just recognize that they could actually move a desktop machine in quantity if they got the price and configuration right.
The closest you're going to get is an overpriced Mini with integrated crappics that will be a 'bit' better with Haswell or an over (heh) Pro if Apple gets around to updating it.
You seem to have a very negative attitude with respect to integrated graphics. Remember that a process shrink will allow them to double the GPU size if they really want too. So even if Haswell doesn't live up to expectations the Mini will become a far better graphics / compute platform than it has been with the follow on to Haswell. That is if Apple can pull head from ass and get to work on the GPU drivers.
Apple's all about the AIO. (But weren't they always?) And that's the bulk of 'Macs' they sell. Almost 5 million like Apple Mac AIOs.
No they haven't always been this bad. They did have at one time desktop computers at reasonable prices. The expensive Mac Pro kick is a recent marketing strategy that obviously has fallen flat on its face.
And they perform 'just fine' for the majority...otherwise I'd guess they'd throw together an overclocked, sli-rage machine for a cheaper price.
The average user has left the Mini and Pro on the shelf. The IMac is flat sales wise. I'm not sure how you see this as a successful marketing program.
Just buy yourself a Windows tower and stick Linux on it. You can have whatever gpu you like. And there's plenty of 'cube' style shuttle cases for you to wonder re: form factor. Add a screw driver and you'll be happy.
I already run a number of Linux machines for special purposes. Linux isn't what I'd want as my primary desktop machine though. It is very likely that Apples hardware lineup will force me onto a laptop to get a machine that is a decent performer and value.
Rather than wishing Apple would cater just to you and a 'few' others re: a Cube concept they left behind years ago...
Lemon Bon Bon.
You got me all wrong here, I want to see Apple revitalize the desktop before they cancel the whole lineup. That affects us all. The form factor of the machine doesn't matter, what you get for your money does. Hell I'd buy a Mac Pro if it was priced right for the expected performance level. I'd even consider a Mini if it was properly supported and at the right performance level.
Apples desktop line up is a perfect example of what happens when you put way to much effort into an artificial product line up. That is the tiering that Apple applies to models that alienates the people most likely to buy a desktop machine in the first place.
It's not like iMacs are made out of balsa wood and pritt sticked together.
It might as well be made out of Balsa if the machine doesn't fit your needs.
The aluminium and glass exude quality.
For some appearance can be everything.
The LED is vibrant and punchy with great colour.
Which only means something if that is the screen you expect or want to use. One of the big reasons to avoid the iMac is in fact the screen you are so in love with.
The 680MX drives a very hi-res screen. It's very powerful and handles 3D with ease. (Even the 650GT is no slouch...for 1080p...)
8 gigs of ram - plenty. I remember when Photoshop and Lightwave suggested 256 megs of ram...
Actually it is plenty for your use and buying schedule, others may have significant issues with 8GB of RAM.
1TB, loads of space.
Again highly debatable. The real problem is the lack of an easy way to upgrade that disk. Even the Mini has gotten easier in that regard.
The lack of desktop clutter with cables.
The i7 is the iMac's coming of age cpu. It's great. Very, very accomplished...performer.
Which pretty much applies to any computer made with modern Intel hardware.
If you want to get inside the machine you'll be disappointed. But it's not really necessary. It's a world class machine designed by the best AIO team in the world. If you want extra storage punch? There's USB and TB ports to 'plug it in.'
And suffer all the reliability issues associated with keeping those cables plugged in. It is interesting that you promote plugging in in one paragraph after previously champion the lack of cables.
It's a work of art.
In use, it's a dream. But without Mac OS X it would be all for nothing.
I'm sure it does work like a dream. Some of us dream of that sort of performance in a more flexible platform.
For me, it's the ultimate desktop Mac...or Mac of any kind. (Though the iMac's legacy will no doubt be the iPad...and the iPhone...) Other's can wait for a pro or a mini with improved graphics. You'll be waiting a while though.
Err no, a new Mini should arrive with Haswell. Given of course that Intel gets all the bugs out and starts to ship silicon acceptable to Apple.
In the meantime...there's value and(!) performance with the iMac.
Lemon Bon Bon.
It is only a good value if the platform fits your needs. I know you have an inherent need to champion this machine, but in doing so you have fallen death to what other people are saying. The entire desktop sales picture isn't all that rosy, and that includes the iMac. We might see good numbers for this quarter but that could very well be a blip due to Apple not having iMacs for sale for months and the general backlog afterwards. The overall trend in desktop sales has been looking pretty bleak for a while now. New products, indeed new concepts would do a lot to turn that around. Right now Apple has a lot of bitter desktop customers that are really wondering if Apple is about to punt.
I have to read all of your posts more thoroughly to really digest them but if I buy an iMac it will be with my money only and for me only, not to share. : P
Don't allow yourself to be harassed into buying an iMac. You may change your mind but do so because you believe it is the right course of action. In the past I found the iMac to be so offensive that I ended up buying a MBP instead.
Lemon has his point of view but honestly it sounds like somebody that has been brain washed by one of those fake religious cults. The iMac is at once a great accomplishment but also a terrible solution for many users. Lemon can't seem to grasp such a concept.
My current mini has an SSD in it (Samsung 470) so it flies for basic use.
If I remember correctly your issue with the Mini is graphics capability for gaming. As much as I'm with you on the need for massive improvements here, I can see Apple once again castrating the Mini even with Haswell. I really don't think they get it, people don't want a half assed Mini. As I have said before the entry level Mini isn't the problem, the problem is the lack of real upgrades that give you a suitable uptick in GPU performance. The 2011 Mini with a GPU was a joke of an implementation and sadly Apples solution to the problem was to can the model. That is really stupid on their part and is in part a factor in the decline of Apples desktop line up.
I still have plenty of time to decide.
Yes you do, so don't rush. In a nut shell July is only three (really closer to two)months away, supposedly the new hardware will be out around that time from Intel. If Apple is on the ball this year we will see new Minis shortly there after. More so we should start to see new platforms from Apple which hopefully will lead to a readjustment of the pricing structure. Yes I'm hoping for a new Mac Pro by July and a restructuring of Apples hardware line up. Dreaming yes but I think they need to do something soon. They obviously blew it when it came to pricing the laptops, thus leading to the mid course correction, so maybe they have learned their lesson about gouging people.
Yeah dreaming but it has gotten to the point that Apple is so full of themselves that it is starting to hurt sales.
I am almost certain I will buy a mini since flash storage is not offered with the 21.5" iMacs and I cannot afford a 27" at the moment.
Just hope that the stirage options don't go the way of the GPU that was in the 2011 Mini. Right no Apple is so unpredictable you don't know what might happen.
All I play wizard are old games mostly through MAME. The Intel HD 3000 plays them just fine (and I'd hope they would) except for Gauntlet Legends. The Intel HD 4000 isn't a huge improvement over the HD 3000 but I think the 4600 or whatever is in the mini I buy will be.
Comments
As to under cutting sales, yes that is happening. I was very interested in picking up a new Mini with a discrete GPU this year but that was not to be. The current GPU just doesn't cut the mustard and Apple has yet to deliver support for OpenCL on Intels GPU. So no new Mini this year for me. Apple basically blew it with the current rev Mini.
So the question in my mind is this will Apple deliver a suitable Haswell based Mini? Frankly due to their seemingly overwhelming desire to castrate the machine I don't hold out a lot of hope for the Haswell based Mini. That doesn't mean Apple couldn't produce a viable Mini just that their history with the Mini isn't good. So it is really a question of what could be produced against what Apple does produce. If a Haswell Mini comes out without the GT3 in one model, without OpenCL support and without a strong driver update in the first place; then yeah they are limiting sales significantly.
It will be very interesting to see where Apples earnings report goes because honestly I think the marketing team needs to be slapped senseless. The biggest problem Apple has with the Mini right now is that the high end machines simply don't justify their expense over the entry level machine. I mean really what is in the "server" model that justifies the $1000 price tag. Don't even get me started on the middle of the road model. Part of this nonsense is Apples history of undervaluing the GPU in their machines. The only way to address this is for customers to vote with their feet and buy alternative hardware.
As for the iMac, I don't know what is going to happen there. To me, they need to increase the standard video memory for me to consider purchasing one.
Let me ask this, how are iMacs in terms of dead pixels?
You think mac is the greatest product in the world. Guess what you are wrong.Over priced and not great quality control involved in their product lines.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69
A point in time will come when it doesn't make sense to put a discrete GPU on anything other than maybe a high end work station. That isn't today but Haswell will be very close. The reality is process shrinks out so much space on the average chip that the performance of the integrated GPUs will only go up. Further that integration will lead to heterogeneous systems where the GPU is an equal on the memory bus. This will lead to much more interesting use of the GPU in future operating systems.
As to under cutting sales, yes that is happening. I was very interested in picking up a new Mini with a discrete GPU this year but that was not to be. The current GPU just doesn't cut the mustard and Apple has yet to deliver support for OpenCL on Intels GPU. So no new Mini this year for me. Apple basically blew it with the current rev Mini.
So the question in my mind is this will Apple deliver a suitable Haswell based Mini? Frankly due to their seemingly overwhelming desire to castrate the machine I don't hold out a lot of hope for the Haswell based Mini. That doesn't mean Apple couldn't produce a viable Mini just that their history with the Mini isn't good. So it is really a question of what could be produced against what Apple does produce. If a Haswell Mini comes out without the GT3 in one model, without OpenCL support and without a strong driver update in the first place; then yeah they are limiting sales significantly.
It will be very interesting to see where Apples earnings report goes because honestly I think the marketing team needs to be slapped senseless. The biggest problem Apple has with the Mini right now is that the high end machines simply don't justify their expense over the entry level machine. I mean really what is in the "server" model that justifies the $1000 price tag. Don't even get me started on the middle of the road model. Part of this nonsense is Apples history of undervaluing the GPU in their machines. The only way to address this is for customers to vote with their feet and buy alternative hardware.
Apple are all about the upsell. Otherwise they wouldn't have castrated the Mini's GPU's (or lack of) capabilities.
You can think the marketing team needs slapping. But Apple have reaped Billions in profit...
...after long since leaving the notion behind of an upgradable tower or cube concept. (The G3 Blue and White tower and the Cube are: history.)
...and it doesn't look like those days are coming back. We've been on overpriced Mac Pros for ten years now. That's your tinker box, Wizard.
It's out of date and it will cost you.
Keep hoping for something else though...hope is part of the human condition.
The closest you're going to get is an overpriced Mini with integrated crappics that will be a 'bit' better with Haswell or an over (heh) Pro if Apple gets around to updating it.
Apple's all about the AIO. (But weren't they always?) And that's the bulk of 'Macs' they sell. Almost 5 million like Apple Mac AIOs.
And they perform 'just fine' for the majority...otherwise I'd guess they'd throw together an overclocked, sli-rage machine for a cheaper price.
Just buy yourself a Windows tower and stick Linux on it. You can have whatever gpu you like. And there's plenty of 'cube' style shuttle cases for you to wonder re: form factor. Add a screw driver and you'll be happy.
Rather than wishing Apple would cater just to you and a 'few' others re: a Cube concept they left behind years ago...
Lemon Bon Bon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winter
I know I will be buying a mini this year because I want one and I will probably give my old one to my mother since she wants a computer herself. I will probably purchase a quad core i7 mini with an SSD and expect it to come with the HD4600 or GT2 graphics which will be a nice jump over my dual core i5 with HD3000 graphics.
As for the iMac, I don't know what is going to happen there. To me, they need to increase the standard video memory for me to consider purchasing one.
Let me ask this, how are iMacs in terms of dead pixels?
I don't like Apple's sharp business practices which apply to their 'keen' pricing on Mini, iMac or Pro.
They're overpriced. And they skin you for extra vram or gpu upgrades or fusion upgrades...and skin you harder for a DVD option they just dropped. Bloody cheek? Well, they're sitting on billions and I'm not...
I've had two iMacs. One of which I just sold to my cousin £450. Which went towards my top of the line iMac purchase so my new iMac cost me £1800 instead of £2250. I think it was over priced. But I wanted the fusion, i7, dvd and 680mx.
No dead pixels on my last iMac after 4+ years. None on my new purchase. Very cool under load. The last run ran wayyyyyy hotter. This new beast is very cool to the touch.
I've helped a PC user over to the Apple side. They bought an iMac 21incher. Up from the base model. 512megs vram. Sounds annoying. But in practice? 650GT very impressive performer. Plenty of ram. Gorgeous 21 inch screen. I rate the iMac screens. This one seems less reflective. But I didn't really notice the last one. I have the screen away from facing windows.
Why don't you and your Mum go halves on a non base iMac 21incher. Trust me, you'll be pleasantly surprised.
I doubt the Haswell mini will quite catch the 650GT. But it may offer more than the 4000.
I'm sure if you are used to the mini 'graphics' you have, Haswell's 'gpu' improvements will seem significant.
If you're prepared to wait it out, see what the mini offers. Otherwise...go halves with you Mum on a 21inch iMac non base model.
2 gigs of vram? Less of an issue than you might think...for a good many things. (But that doesn't mean Apple shouldn't improve Vram amounts. I've long been a critic of their sharp penny pinching re: this and ram...)
Lemon Bon Bon.
Yeah, if you went halves with your Mum on the non-base iMac it would cost you what? £600-ish pounds?
For me, an integrated monitor is a non-issue (I didn't always think that...as an ex-Power Tower users...) but in practice, the screens have been great. Vibrant and elegant machines with far less wires. (The wires around my Power Tower could be a bit tiresome with cables everywhere...)
The new iMac with wireless set up looks light years ahead of all that.
It's called progress.
Lemon Bon Bon.
As for where the iMac is going...
?
After the GPU power of the 680MX (for a while making the iMac a top ten gpu performer - simply amazing!) being included anything could happen.
Look at the introduction of the iMac all those years ago. A curvy if dumpy and plucky G3 performer for around £1k. Apple drove the price as low as £545 here in the UK!
Suddenly the Mini doesn't look so good value these days? No keyboard, mouse or screen! And about the same price from all those years ago.
The iMac these days? Has grown up. So much so, no single model under 1K!!! (A mistake, I think...)
But performance wise? The i7, 8 gigs of ram, 1 tb fusion drive with 680mx look light years ahead of the iMac G3 range from years ago.
The iMac has moved up the performance ladder and slid in value to a degree. But a 27 inch screen is included and adds great value. Sure, some would like the screen removed and sold as a box they could 'tinker' with.
So it goes.
I think as far as desktop models goes? Apple shows its hand for the desktop with the iMac.
The computer disappears. (Steve said as much in the keynotes all those years ago...)
It's just a screen with a control method k/b and mouse.
...and they next logical conclusion or extension of that is the iPad....
...to the Mac in your pocket, the iPhone.
Apple are all about making the traditional 'nerd' designs disappear and focus on what it is you're doing.
If you want a couple of SSDs to expand your iMac or a RAID array Thunderbolt set up...plug it in.
I don't need the DVD player all the time. I can just plug it in. I've used mine once to install Win 7 on bootcamp. Uhm. That's it.
A handful of people lamenting the Pro or Cube or 'mid range' desktop on here are dwarfed by the sales of a million iMacs and 4 million laptop (new desktop/AIOs).
The iMac and the Macbook Pro are Apple's desktop 'mid tower.'
Typically Apple, they don't look like boxes with cables...or have separate screens.
They reflect the original 'Mac.'
It's back to 1984 with Apple's desktop future. It's flatter, thinner, cooler and value added.
Any 'fuss' is removed. Outmoded features are dropped. Cables vanish.
Look in any Apple store and the reality of Apple's computing for the rest of 'us' is staring us in the face.
You'll be lucky to see a Pro (even before the Euro ban) and even the iMacs are further back in the store...you may see the 'odd' mini...
Lemon Bon Bon.
It's not like iMacs are made out of balsa wood and pritt sticked together.
The aluminium and glass exude quality.
The LED is vibrant and punchy with great colour.
The 680MX drives a very hi-res screen. It's very powerful and handles 3D with ease. (Even the 650GT is no slouch...for 1080p...)
8 gigs of ram - plenty. I remember when Photoshop and Lightwave suggested 256 megs of ram...
1TB, loads of space.
The lack of desktop clutter with cables.
The i7 is the iMac's coming of age cpu. It's great. Very, very accomplished...performer.
If you want to get inside the machine you'll be disappointed. But it's not really necessary. It's a world class machine designed by the best AIO team in the world. If you want extra storage punch? There's USB and TB ports to 'plug it in.'
It's a work of art.
In use, it's a dream. But without Mac OS X it would be all for nothing.
For me, it's the ultimate desktop Mac...or Mac of any kind. (Though the iMac's legacy will no doubt be the iPad...and the iPhone...) Other's can wait for a pro or a mini with improved graphics. You'll be waiting a while though.
In the meantime...there's value and(!) performance with the iMac.
Lemon Bon Bon.
Sorry, the future?
6-8 cores?
16 gigs standard?
SSD standard?
Retina screen?
Even faster gpus than the 680MX?!
From where I'm sitting the iMac (r)evolution continues...it's steady climb to power.
Lemon Bon Bon. :P
A 4k screen would be gorgeous.
The one in the 27 incher is gorgeous. But a 4k screen would blow the doors off...
Lemon Bon Bon.
My current mini has an SSD in it (Samsung 470) so it flies for basic use.
I still have plenty of time to decide.
In a nut shell you really have to wonder about a management team that would let a product like the Mac Pro slip as much as it has. It use to be a product worth buying, now it is an outdated machine that hasn't had a decent update in years and sadly doesn't support some of the most important technologies Apple has. Exactly! So who's fault is that? The hope for something else is related to the idea that Apple might just recognize that they could actually move a desktop machine in quantity if they got the price and configuration right. You seem to have a very negative attitude with respect to integrated graphics. Remember that a process shrink will allow them to double the GPU size if they really want too. So even if Haswell doesn't live up to expectations the Mini will become a far better graphics / compute platform than it has been with the follow on to Haswell. That is if Apple can pull head from ass and get to work on the GPU drivers. No they haven't always been this bad. They did have at one time desktop computers at reasonable prices. The expensive Mac Pro kick is a recent marketing strategy that obviously has fallen flat on its face. The average user has left the Mini and Pro on the shelf. The IMac is flat sales wise. I'm not sure how you see this as a successful marketing program. I already run a number of Linux machines for special purposes. Linux isn't what I'd want as my primary desktop machine though. It is very likely that Apples hardware lineup will force me onto a laptop to get a machine that is a decent performer and value. You got me all wrong here, I want to see Apple revitalize the desktop before they cancel the whole lineup. That affects us all. The form factor of the machine doesn't matter, what you get for your money does. Hell I'd buy a Mac Pro if it was priced right for the expected performance level. I'd even consider a Mini if it was properly supported and at the right performance level.
Apples desktop line up is a perfect example of what happens when you put way to much effort into an artificial product line up. That is the tiering that Apple applies to models that alienates the people most likely to buy a desktop machine in the first place.
It is only a good value if the platform fits your needs. I know you have an inherent need to champion this machine, but in doing so you have fallen death to what other people are saying. The entire desktop sales picture isn't all that rosy, and that includes the iMac. We might see good numbers for this quarter but that could very well be a blip due to Apple not having iMacs for sale for months and the general backlog afterwards. The overall trend in desktop sales has been looking pretty bleak for a while now. New products, indeed new concepts would do a lot to turn that around. Right now Apple has a lot of bitter desktop customers that are really wondering if Apple is about to punt.
Lemon has his point of view but honestly it sounds like somebody that has been brain washed by one of those fake religious cults. The iMac is at once a great accomplishment but also a terrible solution for many users. Lemon can't seem to grasp such a concept. If I remember correctly your issue with the Mini is graphics capability for gaming. As much as I'm with you on the need for massive improvements here, I can see Apple once again castrating the Mini even with Haswell. I really don't think they get it, people don't want a half assed Mini. As I have said before the entry level Mini isn't the problem, the problem is the lack of real upgrades that give you a suitable uptick in GPU performance. The 2011 Mini with a GPU was a joke of an implementation and sadly Apples solution to the problem was to can the model. That is really stupid on their part and is in part a factor in the decline of Apples desktop line up.
Yes you do, so don't rush. In a nut shell July is only three (really closer to two)months away, supposedly the new hardware will be out around that time from Intel. If Apple is on the ball this year we will see new Minis shortly there after. More so we should start to see new platforms from Apple which hopefully will lead to a readjustment of the pricing structure. Yes I'm hoping for a new Mac Pro by July and a restructuring of Apples hardware line up. Dreaming yes but I think they need to do something soon. They obviously blew it when it came to pricing the laptops, thus leading to the mid course correction, so maybe they have learned their lesson about gouging people.
Yeah dreaming but it has gotten to the point that Apple is so full of themselves that it is starting to hurt sales.
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Just hope that the stirage options don't go the way of the GPU that was in the 2011 Mini. Right no Apple is so unpredictable you don't know what might happen.
Originally Posted by wizard69
They obviously blew it when it came to pricing the laptops…
Yeah dreaming…
I'm glad you recognize how ludicrous your own statement was.
HD 3000 good enough for most games played. 4000 no big deal really.