What lies this is the truth Apple has no one NEW PRODUCT yet! They are living off there reputation now.Improving their models is not new products to me or anyone who has the intelligence to see this.
Nor should they be expected to have an entirely new product. They have a tablet product line that can't even rationally be called mature nor entirely fleshed out yet so there is little pressing need for something entirely new.
As for Apple and new products their spending on R&D is growing by leaps and bounds, it is pretty obvious they have new products in the works as such don't get so worked up over the idea that you personally can't see them yet nor buy them. Frankly you strike me as an individual that has never really worked for a dollar in all his life nor has invested any time at all in the bringing of an entirely new product to market. These things take years and can often be set back multiple times with unforeseen issues or technology setbacks.
Think about this for a minute, Corning developed Gorila Glass sometime in the sixties! It wasn't until Aples iPhone that they had a suitable market for the glass. Sometimes synergy isn't instantaneous. From the perspective of Apple the iPhone, in its current form, isn't even possible without the new battery technology that Apple found for the platform. Without a doubt battery technology is a problem for any new wearable product that Apple might introduce. The fact is that when you are pushing the state of the art setbacks are always possible.
The i pad mini is the same product only it is smaller. Big deal.Let Apple come out with something entirely brand new in this field and than i will agree with you.
I had this idea in my mind that even though I wanted Apple to add more BTO options on their computers, they would never actually do it. Today I find out that flash storage options have been added to the 21.5" iMac.
I had this idea in my mind that even though I wanted Apple to add more BTO options on their computers, they would never actually do it. Today I find out that flash storage options have been added to the 21.
Nice isn't it?
However don't give them your money. Wait for the Haswell machines. Especially when they should be rather close.
I will most definitely. I just believe the iMac is now a more attractive option for me.
If it floats your boat go the iMac route. I still have reservations mainly because I keep my computing hardware for a long time, eventually that hardware needs servicing and the iMac is a joke in that respect. It is actually easier to get inside Apples laptops these days. In any event the SSD option will go a very long way to making that machine perform in a modern way, I can understand your imterest in this set of options.
Not from the Mac desktop line up. It is pretty silly to equate Apples current success with success of the desktop line up. Sales are flat for the iMac and receding for the Mac Pro and Mini. We can argue about why but immcertainthe big issue is that nobody wants to pay good money for the configurations Apple offers.
No argument there. Obvious.
Which has effectively locked Apple out of many use cases for years now. It is one reason businesses resist using Mac hardware for the run of the mill business needs.
Apple and their secrecy. It helps and hurts them. But Apple are doing better in small business and indirectly due to iPhone and iPad and workers being allowed to use their own computing kit...they're doing better in business than they used to.
Well I'm not sure the Mac Pro has been as overpriced as it has been in the last couple of years.
Last couple of years? Seriously? 'Couple'? Two? Four? Six? Since it was introduced? :P or the mind warping 'old spec' on offer now? There hasn't been a decently priced tower since Jobs did his 'Power and Value' keynote for the Blue and White G3 tower. The last great tower in my view.
The problem is it really seems like nobody at Apple grasps why the machine isn't selling well. Being perceived as overpriced and underpowered is death in the workstation market.
Apple grasp over priced? I guess not. Especially when you raise prices in a recession. The growth of retail stores and accessibility to Apple kit certainly helped Apple computers. iPod halo. iPhone probably to a degree. Quality line up of computers helped. The move to laptops. Compelling OS X. And malaise over Vista. They've out grown the PC industry for years. They couldn't have done that with crap computers. But now their computer growth is flattening. Price hikes on iMac (or lack of availability, heh...) in 2008 from £675 to £999 and now in 2012 to £1099 for an entry model don't help. Removing the affordable Macbook option for £695-£799 doesn't help price conscious users. The Mini didn't escape the price hiking either on the way over to Intel. Sure, tablets are doing to computer sales what laptops did to desktops. But as we enter a triple dip recession and Apple sits on 140 billion...how about helping out customers? Fusion drive could be standard. Entry model could be cheaper. For desktops and laptops. And for people like Wizard who'd like a more 'flexible' option.
In a nut shell you really have to wonder about a management team that would let a product like the Mac Pro slip as much as it has. It use to be a product worth buying, now it is an outdated machine that hasn't had a decent update in years and sadly doesn't support some of the most important technologies Apple has.
I lament the treatment of the Mac Pro like any on these boards or in the pro community who've been crying out.
Exactly! So who's fault is that?
Apple's.
The hope for something else is related to the idea that Apple might just recognize that they could actually move a desktop machine in quantity if they got the price and configuration right.
Price would solve the 'X-Mac' equation for many. Simple. Redesign the overly big 'pro' and lop the price for the entry tower with a mainstream i7. Easy. Steve Jobs said money wasn't everything. *Looks at the mac pro price.
You seem to have a very negative attitude with respect to integrated graphics.
That's ironic considering the blasting you give Intel. :P Integrated crappics have been historically that. They've sucked for years. The quality that's began to be seen in AMD's apu? A relatively recent thing. So that leaves Intel. And the 4000 is crap. It is. The Haswell GT3 will be the 1st integrated cpu/gpu that begins to get serious from Intel. But..as you've said. Long time coming from Intel (and their crap gpu drivers?) and they're still behind AMD? Me? Negative? You're the most negative poster on here. :P (but I still enjoy your posts.)
Remember that a process shrink will allow them to double the GPU size if they really want too. So even if Haswell doesn't live up to expectations the Mini will become a far better graphics / compute platform than it has been with the follow on to Haswell.
Well, yes. Apple will get an affordable computer by default due to Haswell. But not so much by the time you add a monitor, k/b and mouse.
That is if Apple can pull head from ass and get to work on the GPU drivers.
Apple's focus is iPhone/iPad. Laptops. That order. Their dance with desktops had it's rennaissance upon Job's return. The iMac and the G3 mini tower. Only the iMac has evolved in bang per buck and power. It doesn't suit you. But Apple's priority for desktops isn't what it was. iMac covers most bases. Yawning chasms between updates for the mini...and the ongoing epic that is the mac pro...tells us something. Even the iMac update took it's bloody time.
No they haven't always been this bad.
...no. And those days aren't coming back. But the mini lives. The iMac lives. The pro yet lives. Just. The hope is that Haswell makes the mini sing. And for those that want something 'flexible' in terms of 'access' that the pro gets the 'modular' desktop approach covering the gaming mini tower to workstation crowd who want to get in and tinker. The iMac will continue to evolve. The current top end is the best iMac yet. It's never been ultra accessible. It didn't debut as ultra accessible. The original Mac didn't.
They did have at one time desktop computers at reasonable prices.
Tell me about it. iMac. Entry. £595 (or was it lower) inc Vat. UK Prices!!! It's now double that for entry. *looks skyward.
The expensive Mac Pro kick is a recent marketing strategy that obviously has fallen flat on its face.
*B*ll*cks about it being recent. Ten years. I'll give you props for the 1st few when they made the line value added with dual processors in the entry models. But with the G4 and G5 and move to Intel they kept pushing the 'pro' into land of insanity price wise. Then you have to add, gpu, ram, monitor... 'Hello Apple. Here's my kidney...'
The average user has left the Mini and Pro on the shelf.
Sales don't lie. I gave the mini and pro a look and left them on the shelf. Many others have. Though the iMac has done very well for the 'average' consumer. And taken Pro sales with it. ...and by the time you spec up the mini with Apple kit...you may as well pay for the iMac.
The IMac is flat sales wise.
But it gives value all told. The 2nd up base model is pretty darn good. But good luck getting into it. But do you need to? I'd argue not. But not rubbish like pro sales. Or 'so-so' like the mini. How come the 'mini' Mac didn't sell so well? Integrated crappics...price hike...add k/b and mouse...monitor...and??? You're way over a rationally priced PC.
I'm not sure how you see this as a successful marketing program.
Take it up with Apple.
I already run a number of Linux machines for special purposes.
And you'll get your 'Cube' if you're happy with Linux. Haven't they got the interface sorted on it yet? It's been how long now?
Linux isn't what I'd want as my primary desktop machine though.
Why not? :P
It is very likely that Apples hardware lineup will force me onto a laptop to get a machine that is a decent performer and value.
Get the Haswell Air. Don't let me 'hassel' you into that though! :P
You got me all wrong here,
No, I haven't.
I want to see Apple revitalize the desktop before they cancel the whole lineup.
You can want it, Wizard. Sure. I'd like to see Apple do that to give people the choice. I don't see it happening. It's not on their store is it? Why not?
That affects us all.
No. Just you and a minority of others.
The form factor of the machine doesn't matter, what you get for your money does.
There you go then. The form factor of the machine doesn't matter. Agreed. :P And yes. What you get for your money. *looks the sadly lacking mini and pro. And I'd score the iMac down a point for having to pay extra for a DVD player (£60) and an extra £200 for a 128 gig SSD. Ass rapingly poor and then you have to get past the higher price of entry for the iMac at £1099.
Hell I'd buy a Mac Pro if it was priced right for the expected performance level.
Most people would agree with that for the Pro, iMac and Mini.
I'd even consider a Mini if it was properly supported and at the right performance level.
Well, if you're real lucky, the Haswell GT3 mini may tickle your funny bone.
Apples desktop line up is a perfect example of what happens when you put way to much effort into an artificial product line up.
Apple have really gone over the top with their 'upsell'. It's really O.T.T. Obvious. And. A rip off. And whoop de doo...they offer more SSD options on the iMac after I buy one. So tell me about it.
That is the tiering that Apple applies to models that alienates the people most likely to buy a desktop machine in the first place.
Alienates. I found that after the 2008 price hikes. I don't view Apple as a friend. They're not my church. They offer OS X and the best designed hardware on the planet. But it's far from perfect. 'Most people' on the desktop aren't most people anymore, though? Go look in Apple's stores. What do you notice?
It might as well be made out of Balsa if the machine doesn't fit your needs.
Things have been moved on since the Apple I, Wizard.
For some appearance can be everything.
Who? Me? Apple? Johnny Ives? Steve Jobs revamping Apple in 1997? Implication is slapped down. Because mere looks wouldn't see Apple's computer renaissance come this far if not for it's under pinnings. 'Some.' Try another generalisation. It may work.
Which only means something if that is the screen you expect or want to use.
What? Like the one in the iPad? or iPhone? Or the majority of laptop users, like yourself? :P
One of the big reasons to avoid the iMac is in fact the screen you are so in love with.
Or the laptop you actually use? :P (Ofc I'm love with the iMac. There'd be something wrong if I wasn't. It's brand new. Powerful. Great gpu. Loads of ram. Fusion HD. Better than ever screen. I just need Apple to write my promotion copy for me. :P
Actually it is plenty for your use and buying schedule, others may have significant issues with 8GB of RAM.
It won't be the majority of users though, Wiz'. Just you and a minority of others. Ram's cheap. Cheaper than it's ever been. So add some.
Again highly debatable. The real problem is the lack of an easy way to upgrade that disk.
Well, they've added more internal SSD options. There's plenty of external options too and the Thunderbolt Raid type stuff. All far more powerful than the laptop you're using, Wizard.
Even the Mini has gotten easier in that regard.
Integrated crappics.
Which pretty much applies to any computer made with modern Intel hardware.
?
And suffer all the reliability issues associated with keeping those cables plugged in. It is interesting that you promote plugging in in one paragraph after previously champion the lack of cables.
I haven't had any reliability issues with the iMac.
I'm sure it does work like a dream. Some of us dream of that sort of performance in a more flexible platform.
Keep dreaming.
Err no, a new Mini should arrive with Haswell.
Should. Be patient, Wizard. Not much longer to wait. (Well...if you're on Apple's timetable...)
Given of course that Intel gets all the bugs out and starts to ship silicon acceptable to Apple.
Patience. It will come by default. If that's what you're looking for.
It is only a good value if the platform fits your needs.
OS X is a good platform. It you want a specification that meets Wizard Computers...go out and make one...and throw Linux Unbunny on it. Or Buy Apple. Or set up your own computer company...or build a Hackeetosh.
I know you have an inherent need to champion this machine,
Says Mr. X-Mac. :P
but in doing so you have fallen death to what other people are saying
No. I haven't. But I don't suffer from memory loss due to old age either. Keep taking the rage pills, Wizard. Or the primose for your PMT.
The entire desktop sales picture isn't all that rosy,
It isn't perfect. It isn't terrible. If you bought something now...you'd get something powerful, more so than your laptop. Get another laptop. Get an Air with SSD. Get a mini with 4000 crappics if you like them so much. Get an iMac and get Apple care if you're so worried. I still think buying out Apple in a hostile :P takeover would suit you better. Just buy a linux box.
and that includes the iMac.
Well, they glued it. Charged a higher price of entry. ...and charge you extra for the DVD they dropped and the Fusion drives 128 gig SSD. £200 extra for an 80 quid drive. Stiff you on upgrades. But that's Apple, isn't it? Not unique to the iMac line, old son.
We might see good numbers for this quarter but that could very well be a blip due to Apple not having iMacs for sale for months and the general backlog afterwards.
Good numbers. They're out. Take a look.
The overall trend in desktop sales has been looking pretty bleak for a while now.
I don't rate an X-Mac's chance of turning that around. Computers are moving to sealed units. Tablets. Phones. AIOs. You can still buy towers. Mini cubes. Just not from Apple...in terms of what you want. But you can go Linux and make one...so why don't you?
New products, indeed new concepts would do a lot to turn that around.
Turn around what? How many sales do you think that will bring? Did the Cube? Did the blue and white G3 in Apple's desktop 'hello' day? When they were far cheaper overall and more rational? Is the Mini any better than the Cube by the time you add all the extras? And no gpu either. Yeah. I see what you're saying. But I don't think 200k extra sales (if they got that...) is worthy the R&D on the desktop line...if they can't be arsed to upraged the pro or mini half the time.
Right now Apple has a lot
They do? Where? How many is 'a lot'? :P
of bitter
Just you. Let go of your anger. yeah, you're old. But just keeping waiting...you've got plenty of time left...
desktop customers that are really wondering if Apple is about to punt.
Mind reader you, eh? You know what they're wondering? Did they tell you? Did you take a survey or something?
Don't allow yourself to be harassed into buying an iMac.
Who's harrassing? :P I did think about using red kryptonite on him and you but thought no...they should be allowed to wait...and wait...and wait...for what they want. It's all part of the fun. Plus it's your democratic right.
You may change your mind but do so because you believe it is the right course of action. In the past I found the iMac to be so offensive that I ended up buying a MBP instead.
And got an even more offensive machine, a crap top? :P Seriously. I saw someone with the SSD retina Macbook. Top end. A work of art. A real beauty. He was running league of legends on it with the 650GT no probs.
Lemon has his point of view
Well, I guess I do. I won't complain of being harrassed by X-Mac advocates. I'd like to see Apple do one and sort out the mac pro into rational land. But hey. We can keep wishing, eh?
but honestly it sounds like somebody that has been brain washed by one of those fake religious cults.
Rofl. Like the millions of Mac users that bent over with their wallet to run OS X? Would they have done so to run windows? I guess it aint just about the looks then...
The iMac is at once a great accomplishment
It is. If you don't want to add Raid arrays and sli gpus inside...etc. GIves good all around bang for buck. It's design masterpiece. An example of where computing is going. At least as mandated by Apple. See iPad, iphones for hints. (All at your local Apple store...)
but also a terrible solution for many users.
No. Just for the 'rump' of pro users in denial...or the secret cult of people praying that the X-Mac mothership will return to take them to Klu-Art-Tuu...
Lemon can't seem to grasp such a concept.
Of the X-Mac religious cult? Or the Apple religious cult of ass reaming your wallet? Or the cult prophesizing the return of the desktop? (what's a laptop when it's on your desk?)
If I remember correctly your issue with the Mini is graphics capability for gaming.
Bzzt. Not quite. My issue with the gpu is the one you appear to have. The lack of decent graphics. But if you're memory was so sharp...you'd know that. But yeah. Guess it would make a nice gaming rig if you stuck a 650GT in it...and upped the power budget. (The 650GT driving the HD 21 inch iMac? Works a treat for games and...ur...other stuff.
As much as I'm with you on the need for massive improvements here, I can see Apple once again castrating the Mini even with Haswell.
Well, from the company that ass reams you on upgrades...and forced upsell? Hey, don't blame my cult like worship for Apple. I'm just the messenger...repeating Apple's sales patter... :P
I really don't think they get it, people don't want a half assed Mini.
Like the one with the value laiden 4000 int' crappics in it?
As I have said before the entry level Mini isn't the problem, the problem is the lack of real upgrades that give you a suitable uptick in GPU performance.
Yeah. But when could you say that about the mac pro even? And it's their (lol) flagship?! At least the iMac got it's 680 MX. And the imac is a machien with a history of underwhelming graphics choices. But...er...hasn't that been true of mini, iMac and Pro since...well, the last ten years?
The 2011 Mini with a GPU was a joke of an implementation and sadly Apples solution to the problem was to can the model. That is really stupid on their part and is in part a factor in the decline of Apples desktop line up
A very tiny part. (See tide of laptops crushing desktops for details...and see tablets flattening PC growth for other details...and well, Apple's obscene pricing for base and upsell models...)
Yes you do, so don't rush. In a nut shell July is only three (really closer to two)months away, supposedly the new hardware will be out around that time from Intel. If Apple is on the ball this year we will see new Minis shortly there after. More so we should start to see new platforms from Apple which hopefully will lead to a readjustment of the pricing structure. Yes I'm hoping for a new Mac Pro by July and a restructuring of Apples hardware line up. Dreaming yes but I think they need to do something soon. They obviously blew it when it came to pricing the laptops, thus leading to the mid course correction, so maybe they have learned their lesson about gouging people.
For what you and 'many' :P (see rump for details...) desktop users can hold out for is a SSD as standard mini with Haswell GT3. I may have bought such a machine myself. But I'm more than happy with this top end iMac. But like all Apple kit. You'll pay for it. At least with the Gt3 mini if it comes you'll be able to option an SD (probably not on the base model...so sue Apple... ) and you'll get a 'decent' 'quad core' with 'decent' 'gpu' with 'decent' SSD for under a grand...just about. If the wind travels with you. And then you'll add your own monitor and kb/mouse etc.... Guess we'll see. If real lucky? A shrunk 'rational' 'pro' for around £1495...but I doubt it.
Yeah dreaming but it has gotten to the point that Apple is so full of themselves that it is starting to hurt sales.
I'll agree that they've got a bit full of themselves drunk on their iOS success. 2008's price hikes were the beginning of the end of my 'love affair' with Apple.
I really enjoy using the Mac Mini, they make the perfect media computer. Does anyone have any experience with the server version? I've been eyeing one lately and I wonder how they perform, any feed back would be appreciated.
Mostly interested as to how many computers can be connected to it before the system is bogged down.
I really enjoy using the Mac Mini, they make the perfect media computer. Does anyone have any experience with the server version? I've been eyeing one lately and I wonder how they perform, any feed back would be appreciated.
Mostly interested as to how many computers can be connected to it before the system is bogged down.
The server version is unnecessary as it has the same processor as the quad core $799 one. I mean you can configure it with two SSDs instead of one though that doesn't make it worth it.
I really enjoy using the Mac Mini, they make the perfect media computer. Does anyone have any experience with the server version? I've been eyeing one lately and I wonder how they perform, any feed back would be appreciated.
Server for what? Unless you need an Apple specific feature you probably should be considering a Linux box that is designed to be a server.
Mostly interested as to how many computers can be connected to it before the system is bogged down.
Do you realize how silly and impossible that question is? There is no context at all here for even a wild assed guess. Again a server for what comes to mind.
I really enjoy using the Mac Mini, they make the perfect media computer. Does anyone have any experience with the server version? I've been eyeing one lately and I wonder how they perform, any feed back would be appreciated.
Mostly interested as to how many computers can be connected to it before the system is bogged down.
That isn't enough information. It could be used as a lighter duty server for other Macs, and it's not an entirely uncommon use assuming gigabit ethernet --> gigabit switch or more likely to airport router provides enough bandwidth. I wouldn't try to edit video content from it, but you should be able to serve files of reasonable size. It would be IO bottlenecked before anything else. Keep in mind it doesn't matter whether you buy the one labeled server or install OSX server on one of the others. It doesn't even require the quad cpu model. They market it that way to upsell you on hardware. I don't know what OSX server really supports. It's not designed to run big iron servers with multiple NICs.
That isn't enough information. It could be used as a lighter duty server for other Macs, and it's not an entirely uncommon use assuming gigabit ethernet --> gigabit switch or more likely to airport router provides enough bandwidth. I wouldn't try to edit video content from it, but you should be able to serve files of reasonable size. It would be IO bottlenecked before anything else. Keep in mind it doesn't matter whether you buy the one labeled server or install OSX server on one of the others. It doesn't even require the quad cpu model. They market it that way to upsell you on hardware. I don't know what OSX server really supports. It's not designed to run big iron servers with multiple NICs.
The Mini can certainly pass for a light duty server that doesn't need a lot of secondary storage. Even then I still think it might be advantageous to install Linux or BSD on it. Put the Mini in a situation where it needs to access lots of data, expand over time or need servicing then a more traditional server makes more sense.
In a nut shell, you are right, not enough information.
Comments
Nor should they be expected to have an entirely new product. They have a tablet product line that can't even rationally be called mature nor entirely fleshed out yet so there is little pressing need for something entirely new.
As for Apple and new products their spending on R&D is growing by leaps and bounds, it is pretty obvious they have new products in the works as such don't get so worked up over the idea that you personally can't see them yet nor buy them. Frankly you strike me as an individual that has never really worked for a dollar in all his life nor has invested any time at all in the bringing of an entirely new product to market. These things take years and can often be set back multiple times with unforeseen issues or technology setbacks.
Think about this for a minute, Corning developed Gorila Glass sometime in the sixties! It wasn't until Aples iPhone that they had a suitable market for the glass. Sometimes synergy isn't instantaneous. From the perspective of Apple the iPhone, in its current form, isn't even possible without the new battery technology that Apple found for the platform. Without a doubt battery technology is a problem for any new wearable product that Apple might introduce. The fact is that when you are pushing the state of the art setbacks are always possible.
Apple could easily upgrade their machines to 8GB base..
Or at least make it so that thre base memory config leaves room and ability for expansion i.e 1x 4gb chip not 2x2GB
The i pad mini is the same product only it is smaller. Big deal.Let Apple come out with something entirely brand new in this field and than i will agree with you.
[IMG ALT=""]http://forums.appleinsider.com/content/type/61/id/24463/width/200/height/400[/IMG]
Nice isn't it?
However don't give them your money. Wait for the Haswell machines. Especially when they should be rather close.
I will most definitely. I just believe the iMac is now a more attractive option for me.
It is about time don't you think.
Smuck think before you post a comment here. I am retired and worked all my life!
If it floats your boat go the iMac route. I still have reservations mainly because I keep my computing hardware for a long time, eventually that hardware needs servicing and the iMac is a joke in that respect. It is actually easier to get inside Apples laptops these days. In any event the SSD option will go a very long way to making that machine perform in a modern way, I can understand your imterest in this set of options.
Buy what you want to make you happy. Apple changes models like I change my under wear.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69
Not from the Mac desktop line up. It is pretty silly to equate Apples current success with success of the desktop line up. Sales are flat for the iMac and receding for the Mac Pro and Mini. We can argue about why but immcertainthe big issue is that nobody wants to pay good money for the configurations Apple offers.
No argument there. Obvious.
Which has effectively locked Apple out of many use cases for years now. It is one reason businesses resist using Mac hardware for the run of the mill business needs.
Apple and their secrecy. It helps and hurts them. But Apple are doing better in small business and indirectly due to iPhone and iPad and workers being allowed to use their own computing kit...they're doing better in business than they used to.
Well I'm not sure the Mac Pro has been as overpriced as it has been in the last couple of years.
Last couple of years? Seriously? 'Couple'? Two? Four? Six? Since it was introduced? :P or the mind warping 'old spec' on offer now? There hasn't been a decently priced tower since Jobs did his 'Power and Value' keynote for the Blue and White G3 tower. The last great tower in my view.
The problem is it really seems like nobody at Apple grasps why the machine isn't selling well. Being perceived as overpriced and underpowered is death in the workstation market.
Apple grasp over priced? I guess not. Especially when you raise prices in a recession. The growth of retail stores and accessibility to Apple kit certainly helped Apple computers. iPod halo. iPhone probably to a degree. Quality line up of computers helped. The move to laptops. Compelling OS X. And malaise over Vista. They've out grown the PC industry for years. They couldn't have done that with crap computers. But now their computer growth is flattening. Price hikes on iMac (or lack of availability, heh...) in 2008 from £675 to £999 and now in 2012 to £1099 for an entry model don't help. Removing the affordable Macbook option for £695-£799 doesn't help price conscious users. The Mini didn't escape the price hiking either on the way over to Intel. Sure, tablets are doing to computer sales what laptops did to desktops. But as we enter a triple dip recession and Apple sits on 140 billion...how about helping out customers? Fusion drive could be standard. Entry model could be cheaper. For desktops and laptops. And for people like Wizard who'd like a more 'flexible' option.
In a nut shell you really have to wonder about a management team that would let a product like the Mac Pro slip as much as it has. It use to be a product worth buying, now it is an outdated machine that hasn't had a decent update in years and sadly doesn't support some of the most important technologies Apple has.
I lament the treatment of the Mac Pro like any on these boards or in the pro community who've been crying out.
Exactly! So who's fault is that?
Apple's.
The hope for something else is related to the idea that Apple might just recognize that they could actually move a desktop machine in quantity if they got the price and configuration right.
Price would solve the 'X-Mac' equation for many. Simple. Redesign the overly big 'pro' and lop the price for the entry tower with a mainstream i7. Easy. Steve Jobs said money wasn't everything. *Looks at the mac pro price.
You seem to have a very negative attitude with respect to integrated graphics.
That's ironic considering the blasting you give Intel. :P Integrated crappics have been historically that. They've sucked for years. The quality that's began to be seen in AMD's apu? A relatively recent thing. So that leaves Intel. And the 4000 is crap. It is. The Haswell GT3 will be the 1st integrated cpu/gpu that begins to get serious from Intel. But..as you've said. Long time coming from Intel (and their crap gpu drivers?) and they're still behind AMD? Me? Negative? You're the most negative poster on here. :P (but I still enjoy your posts.)
Remember that a process shrink will allow them to double the GPU size if they really want too. So even if Haswell doesn't live up to expectations the Mini will become a far better graphics / compute platform than it has been with the follow on to Haswell.
Well, yes. Apple will get an affordable computer by default due to Haswell. But not so much by the time you add a monitor, k/b and mouse.
That is if Apple can pull head from ass and get to work on the GPU drivers.
Apple's focus is iPhone/iPad. Laptops. That order. Their dance with desktops had it's rennaissance upon Job's return. The iMac
No they haven't always been this bad.
...no. And those days aren't coming back. But the mini lives. The iMac lives. The pro yet lives. Just. The hope is that Haswell makes the mini sing. And for those that want something 'flexible' in terms of 'access' that the pro gets the 'modular' desktop approach covering the gaming mini tower to workstation crowd who want to get in and tinker. The iMac will continue to evolve. The current top end is the best iMac yet. It's never been ultra accessible. It didn't debut as ultra accessible. The original Mac didn't.
They did have at one time desktop computers at reasonable prices.
Tell me about it. iMac. Entry. £595 (or was it lower) inc Vat. UK Prices!!! It's now double that for entry. *looks skyward.
The expensive Mac Pro kick is a recent marketing strategy that obviously has fallen flat on its face.
*B*ll*cks about it being recent. Ten years. I'll give you props for the 1st few when they made the line value added with dual processors in the entry models. But with the G4 and G5 and move to Intel they kept pushing the 'pro' into land of insanity price wise. Then you have to add, gpu, ram, monitor... 'Hello Apple. Here's my kidney...'
The average user has left the Mini and Pro on the shelf.
Sales don't lie. I gave the mini and pro a look and left them on the shelf. Many others have. Though the iMac has done very well for the 'average' consumer. And taken Pro sales with it. ...and by the time you spec up the mini with Apple kit...you may as well pay for the iMac.
The IMac is flat sales wise.
But it gives value all told. The 2nd up base model is pretty darn good. But good luck getting into it. But do you need to? I'd argue not. But not rubbish like pro sales. Or 'so-so' like the mini. How come the 'mini' Mac didn't sell so well? Integrated crappics...price hike...add k/b and mouse...monitor...and??? You're way over a rationally priced PC.
I'm not sure how you see this as a successful marketing program.
Take it up with Apple.
I already run a number of Linux machines for special purposes.
And you'll get your 'Cube' if you're happy with Linux. Haven't they got the interface sorted on it yet? It's been how long now?
Linux isn't what I'd want as my primary desktop machine though.
Why not? :P
It is very likely that Apples hardware lineup will force me onto a laptop to get a machine that is a decent performer and value.
Get the Haswell Air. Don't let me 'hassel' you into that though! :P
You got me all wrong here,
No, I haven't.
I want to see Apple revitalize the desktop before they cancel the whole lineup.
You can want it, Wizard. Sure. I'd like to see Apple do that to give people the choice. I don't see it happening. It's not on their store is it? Why not?
That affects us all.
No. Just you and a minority of others.
The form factor of the machine doesn't matter, what you get for your money does.
There you go then. The form factor of the machine doesn't matter. Agreed. :P And yes. What you get for your money. *looks the sadly lacking mini and pro. And I'd score the iMac down a point for having to pay extra for a DVD player (£60) and an extra £200 for a 128 gig SSD. Ass rapingly poor and then you have to get past the higher price of entry for the iMac at £1099.
Hell I'd buy a Mac Pro if it was priced right for the expected performance level.
Most people would agree with that for the Pro, iMac and Mini.
I'd even consider a Mini if it was properly supported and at the right performance level.
Well, if you're real lucky, the Haswell GT3 mini may tickle your funny bone.
Apples desktop line up is a perfect example of what happens when you put way to much effort into an artificial product line up.
Apple have really gone over the top with their 'upsell'. It's really O.T.T. Obvious. And. A rip off. And whoop de doo...they offer more SSD options on the iMac after I buy one. So tell me about it.
That is the tiering that Apple applies to models that alienates the people most likely to buy a desktop machine in the first place.
Alienates. I found that after the 2008 price hikes. I don't view Apple as a friend. They're not my church. They offer OS X and the best designed hardware on the planet. But it's far from perfect. 'Most people' on the desktop aren't most people anymore, though? Go look in Apple's stores. What do you notice?
Cheers.
Lemon Bon Bon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69
It might as well be made out of Balsa if the machine doesn't fit your needs.
Things have been moved on since the Apple I, Wizard.
For some appearance can be everything.
Who? Me? Apple? Johnny Ives? Steve Jobs revamping Apple in 1997? Implication is slapped down. Because mere looks wouldn't see Apple's computer renaissance come this far if not for it's under pinnings. 'Some.' Try another generalisation. It may work.
Which only means something if that is the screen you expect or want to use.
What? Like the one in the iPad? or iPhone? Or the majority of laptop users, like yourself? :P
One of the big reasons to avoid the iMac is in fact the screen you are so in love with.
Or the laptop you actually use? :P (Ofc I'm love with the iMac. There'd be something wrong if I wasn't. It's brand new. Powerful. Great gpu. Loads of ram. Fusion HD. Better than ever screen. I just need Apple to write my promotion copy for me. :P
Actually it is plenty for your use and buying schedule, others may have significant issues with 8GB of RAM.
It won't be the majority of users though, Wiz'. Just you and a minority of others. Ram's cheap. Cheaper than it's ever been. So add some.
Again highly debatable. The real problem is the lack of an easy way to upgrade that disk.
Well, they've added more internal SSD options. There's plenty of external options too and the Thunderbolt Raid type stuff. All far more powerful than the laptop you're using, Wizard.
Even the Mini has gotten easier in that regard.
Integrated crappics.
Which pretty much applies to any computer made with modern Intel hardware.
?
And suffer all the reliability issues associated with keeping those cables plugged in. It is interesting that you promote plugging in in one paragraph after previously champion the lack of cables.
I haven't had any reliability issues with the iMac.
I'm sure it does work like a dream. Some of us dream of that sort of performance in a more flexible platform.
Keep dreaming.
Err no, a new Mini should arrive with Haswell.
Should. Be patient, Wizard. Not much longer to wait. (Well...if you're on Apple's timetable...)
Given of course that Intel gets all the bugs out and starts to ship silicon acceptable to Apple.
Patience. It will come by default. If that's what you're looking for.
It is only a good value if the platform fits your needs.
OS X is a good platform. It you want a specification that meets Wizard Computers...go out and make one...and throw Linux Unbunny on it. Or Buy Apple. Or set up your own computer company...or build a Hackeetosh.
I know you have an inherent need to champion this machine,
Says Mr. X-Mac. :P
but in doing so you have fallen death to what other people are saying
No. I haven't. But I don't suffer from memory loss due to old age either. Keep taking the rage pills, Wizard. Or the primose for your PMT.
The entire desktop sales picture isn't all that rosy,
It isn't perfect. It isn't terrible. If you bought something now...you'd get something powerful, more so than your laptop. Get another laptop. Get an Air with SSD. Get a mini with 4000 crappics if you like them so much. Get an iMac and get Apple care if you're so worried. I still think buying out Apple in a hostile :P takeover would suit you better. Just buy a linux box.
and that includes the iMac.
Well, they glued it. Charged a higher price of entry. ...and charge you extra for the DVD they dropped and the Fusion drives 128 gig SSD. £200 extra for an 80 quid drive. Stiff you on upgrades. But that's Apple, isn't it? Not unique to the iMac line, old son.
We might see good numbers for this quarter but that could very well be a blip due to Apple not having iMacs for sale for months and the general backlog afterwards.
Good numbers. They're out. Take a look.
The overall trend in desktop sales has been looking pretty bleak for a while now.
I don't rate an X-Mac's chance of turning that around. Computers are moving to sealed units. Tablets. Phones. AIOs. You can still buy towers. Mini cubes. Just not from Apple...in terms of what you want. But you can go Linux and make one...so why don't you?
New products, indeed new concepts would do a lot to turn that around.
Turn around what? How many sales do you think that will bring? Did the Cube? Did the blue and white G3 in Apple's desktop 'hello' day? When they were far cheaper overall and more rational? Is the Mini any better than the Cube by the time you add all the extras? And no gpu either. Yeah. I see what you're saying. But I don't think 200k extra sales (if they got that...) is worthy the R&D on the desktop line...if they can't be arsed to upraged the pro or mini half the time.
Right now Apple has a lot
They do? Where? How many is 'a lot'? :P
of bitter
Just you. Let go of your anger. yeah, you're old. But just keeping waiting...you've got plenty of time left...
desktop customers that are really wondering if Apple is about to punt.
Mind reader you, eh? You know what they're wondering? Did they tell you? Did you take a survey or something?
Lemon Bon Bon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69
Don't allow yourself to be harassed into buying an iMac.
Who's harrassing? :P I did think about using red kryptonite on him and you but thought no...they should be allowed to wait...and wait...and wait...for what they want. It's all part of the fun. Plus it's your democratic right.
You may change your mind but do so because you believe it is the right course of action. In the past I found the iMac to be so offensive that I ended up buying a MBP instead.
And got an even more offensive machine, a crap top? :P Seriously. I saw someone with the SSD retina Macbook. Top end. A work of art. A real beauty. He was running league of legends on it with the 650GT no probs.
Lemon has his point of view
Well, I guess I do. I won't complain of being harrassed by X-Mac advocates.
but honestly it sounds like somebody that has been brain washed by one of those fake religious cults.
Rofl. Like the millions of Mac users that bent over with their wallet to run OS X? Would they have done so to run windows? I guess it aint just about the looks then...
The iMac is at once a great accomplishment
It is. If you don't want to add Raid arrays and sli gpus inside...etc. GIves good all around bang for buck. It's design masterpiece. An example of where computing is going. At least as mandated by Apple. See iPad, iphones for hints. (All at your local Apple store...)
but also a terrible solution for many users.
No. Just for the 'rump' of pro users in denial...or the secret cult of people praying that the X-Mac mothership will return to take them to Klu-Art-Tuu...
Lemon can't seem to grasp such a concept.
Of the X-Mac religious cult? Or the Apple religious cult of ass reaming your wallet? Or the cult prophesizing the return of the desktop? (what's a laptop when it's on your desk?)
If I remember correctly your issue with the Mini is graphics capability for gaming.
Bzzt. Not quite. My issue with the gpu is the one you appear to have. The lack of decent graphics. But if you're memory was so sharp...you'd know that. But yeah. Guess it would make a nice gaming rig if you stuck a 650GT in it...and upped the power budget. (The 650GT driving the HD 21 inch iMac? Works a treat for games and...ur...other stuff.
As much as I'm with you on the need for massive improvements here, I can see Apple once again castrating the Mini even with Haswell.
Well, from the company that ass reams you on upgrades...and forced upsell? Hey, don't blame my cult like worship for Apple. I'm just the messenger...repeating Apple's sales patter... :P
I really don't think they get it, people don't want a half assed Mini.
Like the one with the value laiden 4000 int' crappics in it?
As I have said before the entry level Mini isn't the problem, the problem is the lack of real upgrades that give you a suitable uptick in GPU performance.
Yeah. But when could you say that about the mac pro even? And it's their (lol) flagship?! At least the iMac got it's 680 MX. And the imac is a machien with a history of underwhelming graphics choices. But...er...hasn't that been true of mini, iMac and Pro since...well, the last ten years?
The 2011 Mini with a GPU was a joke of an implementation and sadly Apples solution to the problem was to can the model. That is really stupid on their part and is in part a factor in the decline of Apples desktop line up
A very tiny part. (See tide of laptops crushing desktops for details...and see tablets flattening PC growth for other details...and well, Apple's obscene pricing for base and upsell models...)
Yes you do, so don't rush. In a nut shell July is only three (really closer to two)months away, supposedly the new hardware will be out around that time from Intel. If Apple is on the ball this year we will see new Minis shortly there after. More so we should start to see new platforms from Apple which hopefully will lead to a readjustment of the pricing structure. Yes I'm hoping for a new Mac Pro by July and a restructuring of Apples hardware line up. Dreaming yes but I think they need to do something soon. They obviously blew it when it came to pricing the laptops, thus leading to the mid course correction, so maybe they have learned their lesson about gouging people.
For what you and 'many' :P (see rump for details...) desktop users can hold out for is a SSD as standard mini with Haswell GT3. I may have bought such a machine myself. But I'm more than happy with this top end iMac. But like all Apple kit. You'll pay for it. At least with the Gt3 mini if it comes you'll be able to option an SD (probably not on the base model...so sue Apple...
Yeah dreaming but it has gotten to the point that Apple is so full of themselves that it is starting to hurt sales.
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I'll agree that they've got a bit full of themselves drunk on their iOS success. 2008's price hikes were the beginning of the end of my 'love affair' with Apple.
Lemon Bon Bon.
Did Wizard really use the word 'flexible' in the same sentence as Apple?
Hmm...
He did use the word 'dreaming' too...
Lemon Bon Bon.
Mostly interested as to how many computers can be connected to it before the system is bogged down.
The server version is unnecessary as it has the same processor as the quad core $799 one. I mean you can configure it with two SSDs instead of one though that doesn't make it worth it.
Do you realize how silly and impossible that question is? There is no context at all here for even a wild assed guess. Again a server for what comes to mind.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Relic
I really enjoy using the Mac Mini, they make the perfect media computer. Does anyone have any experience with the server version? I've been eyeing one lately and I wonder how they perform, any feed back would be appreciated.
Mostly interested as to how many computers can be connected to it before the system is bogged down.
That isn't enough information. It could be used as a lighter duty server for other Macs, and it's not an entirely uncommon use assuming gigabit ethernet --> gigabit switch or more likely to airport router provides enough bandwidth. I wouldn't try to edit video content from it, but you should be able to serve files of reasonable size. It would be IO bottlenecked before anything else. Keep in mind it doesn't matter whether you buy the one labeled server or install OSX server on one of the others. It doesn't even require the quad cpu model. They market it that way to upsell you on hardware. I don't know what OSX server really supports. It's not designed to run big iron servers with multiple NICs.
You can use 10 MM as I have a friend who has this server system now. Never had a problem.
The Mini can certainly pass for a light duty server that doesn't need a lot of secondary storage. Even then I still think it might be advantageous to install Linux or BSD on it. Put the Mini in a situation where it needs to access lots of data, expand over time or need servicing then a more traditional server makes more sense.
In a nut shell, you are right, not enough information.