I could add to this but it would really pull this thread off track. To put it bluntly though there are a huge number of lazy people and or idiots in this country. Sadly everyone of them voted for Obama so I really don't see America becoming competitive manufacturing wise anytime soon.
I know, we don't want to derail the thread because some of us are in a bad mood since yesterday.
Would it cheer you up to learn that the lazy, shiftless liberals of Santa Clara County, home to the most valuable technology company on Earth, plus a few minor players like HP and little startups like Facebook, voted 70 percent for Obama?
Digitimes as a source. Take it with a salt lick
And where are the critics to blast the other 80 ish clients that use Foxconn for their American sold products.
Totally mum. Easy money your Surface wasn't 100% made in the USA, for example
Nonsense. Does Mike Daisey plan to sell tickets to "The Agony and Ecstasy of Steve Ballmer"? No? Then Microsoft gets a free pass and Apple stays in the doghouse for being big and successful.
I know, we don't want to derail the thread because some of us are in a bad mood since yesterday.
Would it cheer you up to learn that the lazy, shiftless liberals of Santa Clara County, home to the most valuable technology company on Earth, plus a few minor players like HP and little startups like Facebook, voted 70 percent for Obama?
Go to FoxNews or WSJ.com to do your ranting about political BS. Our labor issues have been around longer than the last 4 years.
If this by any means has a % of accuracy it would be a good start in that they are looking to build in America. Regardless of the level of pay Americans have in the past built incredible technical stuff by hand and if you want a job you will work for it verses no food or a roof over your head. I would much rather buy and support an American worker.
Now if they would just put the plant where Jobs are needed! Sacramento, Northern CA, Detroit, Las Vegas, or better yet Elkhart County, Northern Indiana – these folks can build as it’s the RV Manufactures capital and it was decimated when the economy tanked.
The reality is very few factories in the USA pay minimum wage rates. Often production line workers are paid well above that. On the otherhand you rightfully point out that Foxconn workers are actually being paid faily well too. When it comes right down to it the assembly effort or cost isn't a big deal. That is wages paid are only a small factor in the cost of the product.
agreed. but the problem was/is 'benefits' Used to be for every dollar you paid in salary of putting a car together in your average GM plant, you also paid a dollar in benefits, most of which was paying pensions and healthcare for retired employees of the GM lines. With the current switch to 401Ks and defined benefit plans, and healthcare benefits cut way back, it's not as bad... however, it's still a burden and add on top of that payroll taxes and and workmans comp, etc.
my envelope math says that the avg foxconn worker gets paid $1.81 an hour (after the 25% pay bump), and using iSuppli figures it then takes about 5.5 hours per phone to manufacture ($10/phone after the pay raise).... so, if the wage is $8/hour, and you pay 25% in benefits and SSI tax... $10/hour... it will cost $55 to build an iPhone... or $45 more than in China. and that's assuming the workers are 'equally capable' in quality output.
the questions would be: is setting up a factory cheaper in the US (I can only assume that china has some sort of communist party tax/graft to pay on property and profits)? Shipping cheaper (if all the glass is made in the US at Corning... would trucking it be cheaper than flying it to China?)? etc.
my guess is it will cost at least $25 more to make a phone in the US, if not $50 more. That's steep. but if Apple did make them in the US, the 'made in america' value may be great.
btw: To make 30Million iPhones a year (what, less than a quarter of annual world sales), you'd need 82,500 workers, creating wages of 1.3Billion.
Go to FoxNews or WSJ.com to do your ranting about political BS. Our labor issues have been around longer than the last 4 years.
Tell it to wizard69, not me. He threw the first pile of BS in here.
Back on topic, it's not a labor problem the US has, it's an engineering, design and manufacturing problem. The reason the US auto industry never recovered from the Japanese "invasion" and higher fuel prices is that we never got a Steve Jobs-like product guy in the auto industry. We got lunkheads like Bob Lutz and Lee Iaoccoca who had no idea how to design cars for the world market. How can an auto worker be motivated when he's making soul-killing junk like Navigators and Saturns?
We lost all electronics manufactuing to the Japanese because the television manufacturers thought they were selling living room furniture, not inceasingly miniaturized solid state technology.
The truth is, until Apple got revived, it wasn't possible to point to a single mass-market industry where Americans could compete with the rest of the world, unless you count software. It's not labor issues or taxation that killed American manufacturing, it's lack of intelligent design and engineering. For proof that it isn't just Asian superiority in these fields, look at Germany. They're holding their own because they value the concepts behind what they are making, as does Apple.
I think it's hilarious and a hopeful sign, if true, that the Taiwanese Chinese now want to develop US engineering, show them how it's done, BY MOVING THEM TO CHINA for apprenticeship.
Oh, no! Americans as slave labor! 80 hour work days! Three dollars compensation!
Nice of you to be so generous.
It won't be Americans working in the FoxConn factories, they will import the labor. It is cheaper that way. No taxes to pay, no benefits. .
And then when FoxConn's factories in America fail, the US government will bail them out and all of us will own a losing interest in the company and the POTUS will declare all the FoxConn workers US citizens. The UAW will change its name to United Apple Workers.
Tell it to wizard69, not me. He threw the first pile of BS in here.
Back on topic, it's not a labor problem the US has, it's an engineering, design and manufacturing problem. The reason the US auto industry never recovered from the Japanese "invasion" and higher fuel prices is that we never got a Steve Jobs-like product guy in the auto industry. We got lunkheads like Bob Lutz and Lee Iaoccoca who had no idea how to design cars for the world market. How can an auto worker be motivated when he's making soul-killing junk like Navigators and Saturns?
We lost all electronics manufactuing to the Japanese because the television manufacturers thought they were selling living room furniture, not inceasingly miniaturized solid state technology.
The truth is, until Apple got revived, it wasn't possible to point to a single mass-market industry where Americans could compete with the rest of the world, unless you count software. It's not labor issues or taxation that killed American manufacturing, it's lack of intelligent design and engineering. For proof that it isn't just Asian superiority in these fields, look at Germany. They're holding their own because they value the concepts behind what they are making, as does Apple.
I think it's hilarious and a hopeful sign, if true, that the Taiwanese Chinese now want to develop US engineering, show them how it's done, BY MOVING THEM TO CHINA for apprenticeship.
yes the wiz was being an sore loser.
Back on topic, yes that was interesting statement if true. Jobs complained about the same thing. Im not sure what it means.
We have the big Intel plants etc, but these are small compared to Foxxcon. Is it really super large scale assembly operations that they are refering too? There probably is some truth to that. I can't think of many operations world wide that come close to 'hundreds of thousands'(is this correct?) of people required to assembly a single product.
Related story, the large aerospace company I work for has agreed to 'mentor' an aerospace company in Brazil(its all about relationships according the the latest Harvard MBA playbook... /s). Our managment visited and report thousands of young engineers lead by a few old timer college type professors designing their next military cargo aircraft.
I could add to this but it would really pull this thread off track. To put it bluntly though there are a huge number of lazy people and or idiots in this country. Sadly everyone of them voted for Obama so I really don't see America becoming competitive manufacturing wise anytime soon.
It's ironic that all these Republicans are using government assisted programs that they want to abolish. You have become the people you hated so fiercely, people without jobs complaining the government doesn't do enough for us. You acknowledge this was the worst economy since the depression but you only get four years to completely turn things around? Unemployment is lower, the stock market went from $6500 to $13,000, saved GM, housing is rebounding, and we have President that can actually communicate unlike Bush Jr.. And for life of me why choose Romney worth $200 million, Harvard graduate and say he's not like Obama.
Wall Street whines if Apple's margins are 1% less and people on this forum whine about dirt cheap $329 gadgets. Look at Apple's stock action lately. Where will the stock be if Apple's margins declines? And imagine if unions get involved in those factories. There is also the question of qualified workers. Factory jobs are not going to be high paying jobs, and I doubt that there are enough qualified people. Are they going to hire illegals and pay them $3 an hour?
I am looking forward to the next four years, tons of more Americans will be unemployed. The American people have spoken.
It won't be Americans working in the FoxConn factories, they will import the labor. It is cheaper that way. No taxes to pay, no benefits. .
And then when FoxConn's factories in America fail, the US government will bail them out and all of us will own a losing interest in the company and the POTUS will declare all the FoxConn workers US citizens. The UAW will change its name to United Apple Workers.
Nice positive outlook for your fellow americans (I presume your american), real nice.
Wall Street whines if Apple's margins are 1% less and people on this forum whine about dirt cheap $329 gadgets. Look at Apple's stock action lately. Where will the stock be if Apple's margins declines?
A little history lesson.
Cook introduced the 4S in October last year then a couple of weeks later he announced that the holiday quarter would be phenomenally high. Where did the stock price go... down... right until the last week of November.
I thought we were going to go up after the last quarter was announced but AAPL seems to be following the same pattern as last year.
Games... just games. AAPL is very oversold at the moment.
Tell it to wizard69, not me. He threw the first pile of BS in here.
Ok, I will yell at him too.
Back to you though, there is a reason that there is a growing presence of car manufacturers building cars here. 1. High quality of labor. 2. It reduces their cost sending completed cars half-way across the world. 3. It is cheaper to send car parts here from all over the world. 4. Tax breaks from the federal, state and local governments for setting up manufacturing plants in the US. 5. Import duties on product made overseas protecting products made in the US. 6. Americans buy goods that are "made in America".
A lot of this discussion revolves around cost of inputs and the ability to get incentives for #4 and 5 above. The cost of physical capital in the US is now really cheap while the cost of human capital is very expensive. So, investing in plants with advanced robotics and minimizing the human capital outlays are key. Also, the incentives brought by local, state and federal governments getting people to work at these plants cannot be overlooked. Especially the grants for retraining workers and hiring veterans. They are substantial sums. The last key bit is that Americans prefer (on average) to buy things that are "made in america". What is amazing is that the marketing term: "Made in the USA" is regulated to the extent that foreign manufacture of parts is included in the calculation of the overall weighted average of the total.
I am in favor of increasing manufacturing jobs in the US. Bring it.
There won't be union problems if a plant is built in a right-to-work state.
I'm sure Americans can handle it but at a competitive rate for consumer electronics? I don't think so.
Right to work is just one of those clever right wing euphemisms that really means, "Right to treat your employees anyway you damn please and fire them if they try to organize."
yes the wiz was being an sore loser.
Back on topic, yes that was interesting statement if true. Jobs complained about the same thing. Im not sure what it means.
We have the big Intel plants etc, but these are small compared to Foxxcon. Is it really super large scale assembly operations that they are refering too? There probably is some truth to that. I can't think of many operations world wide that come close to 'hundreds of thousands'(is this correct?) of people required to assembly a single product.
Related story, the large aerospace company I work for has agreed to 'mentor' an aerospace company in Brazil(its all about relationships according the the latest Harvard MBA playbook... /s). Our managment visited and report thousands of young engineers lead by a few old timer college type professors designing their next military cargo aircraft.
Yeah, Jobs's answer to Pres. Obama, the one about 700,000 workers needing so many thousands of engineers, has been a curiosity to me since we first heard about it. I'd like to see some background on it.
Are there really that many workers just doing Apple stuff, or was Jobs loosely referring to the total working population of Foxconn factories where Apple was a large supporting customer? And how many engineers per group of workers are needed to lay out and run such plants?
As Jobs said, there aren't enough manufacturing engineers in the US. Where would they work if they got the schooling? Why would any American want to go into the field?
The fact that the Prez even asked the Main Man in US consumer manufacturing (and Obama does have an iPad, so he knows first hand what "designed in California" means) tells us that there is hope for an initiative to promote design and engineering as a US-centered industrial base. Terry Guo can't be unaware that he's dealing with a formidable design engine, unique to the US, or the left coast of the US.
Maybe this is a high-level plot to start working on the Steve Jobs Problem. Give the manufacturing engineers something to do.
The Obama-Cook-Guo Initiative, all very secret at this point, Apple style. "Loose lips sink ships."
Ok, I will yell at him too.
Back to you though, there is a reason that there is a growing presence of car manufacturers building cars here. 1. High quality of labor. 2. It reduces their cost sending completed cars half-way across the world. 3. It is cheaper to send car parts here from all over the world. 4. Tax breaks from the federal, state and local governments for setting up manufacturing plants in the US. 5. Import duties on product made overseas protecting products made in the US. 6. Americans buy goods that are "made in America".
A lot of this discussion revolves around cost of inputs and the ability to get incentives for #4 and 5 above. The cost of physical capital in the US is now really cheap while the cost of human capital is very expensive. So, investing in plants with advanced robotics and minimizing the human capital outlays are key. Also, the incentives brought by local, state and federal governments getting people to work at these plants cannot be overlooked. Especially the grants for retraining workers and hiring veterans. They are substantial sums. The last key bit is that Americans prefer (on average) to buy things that are "made in america". What is amazing is that the marketing term: "Made in the USA" is regulated to the extent that foreign manufacture of parts is included in the calculation of the overall weighted average of the total.
I am in favor of increasing manufacturing jobs in the US. Bring it.
Right to work is just one of those clever right wing euphemisms that really means, "Right to treat your employees anyway you damn please and fire them if they try to organize."
I wouldn't buy a single Apple product if it was American Union made. I don't support criminal enterprises.
Comments
I know, we don't want to derail the thread because some of us are in a bad mood since yesterday.
Would it cheer you up to learn that the lazy, shiftless liberals of Santa Clara County, home to the most valuable technology company on Earth, plus a few minor players like HP and little startups like Facebook, voted 70 percent for Obama?
The non-tipped minimum wage is $7.25. This varies somewhat state to state, but not by much.
Nonsense. Does Mike Daisey plan to sell tickets to "The Agony and Ecstasy of Steve Ballmer"? No? Then Microsoft gets a free pass and Apple stays in the doghouse for being big and successful.
Go to FoxNews or WSJ.com to do your ranting about political BS. Our labor issues have been around longer than the last 4 years.
If this by any means has a % of accuracy it would be a good start in that they are looking to build in America. Regardless of the level of pay Americans have in the past built incredible technical stuff by hand and if you want a job you will work for it verses no food or a roof over your head. I would much rather buy and support an American worker.
Now if they would just put the plant where Jobs are needed! Sacramento, Northern CA, Detroit, Las Vegas, or better yet Elkhart County, Northern Indiana – these folks can build as it’s the RV Manufactures capital and it was decimated when the economy tanked.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69
The reality is very few factories in the USA pay minimum wage rates. Often production line workers are paid well above that. On the otherhand you rightfully point out that Foxconn workers are actually being paid faily well too. When it comes right down to it the assembly effort or cost isn't a big deal. That is wages paid are only a small factor in the cost of the product.
agreed. but the problem was/is 'benefits' Used to be for every dollar you paid in salary of putting a car together in your average GM plant, you also paid a dollar in benefits, most of which was paying pensions and healthcare for retired employees of the GM lines. With the current switch to 401Ks and defined benefit plans, and healthcare benefits cut way back, it's not as bad... however, it's still a burden and add on top of that payroll taxes and and workmans comp, etc.
my envelope math says that the avg foxconn worker gets paid $1.81 an hour (after the 25% pay bump), and using iSuppli figures it then takes about 5.5 hours per phone to manufacture ($10/phone after the pay raise).... so, if the wage is $8/hour, and you pay 25% in benefits and SSI tax... $10/hour... it will cost $55 to build an iPhone... or $45 more than in China. and that's assuming the workers are 'equally capable' in quality output.
the questions would be: is setting up a factory cheaper in the US (I can only assume that china has some sort of communist party tax/graft to pay on property and profits)? Shipping cheaper (if all the glass is made in the US at Corning... would trucking it be cheaper than flying it to China?)? etc.
my guess is it will cost at least $25 more to make a phone in the US, if not $50 more. That's steep. but if Apple did make them in the US, the 'made in america' value may be great.
btw: To make 30Million iPhones a year (what, less than a quarter of annual world sales), you'd need 82,500 workers, creating wages of 1.3Billion.
Tell it to wizard69, not me. He threw the first pile of BS in here.
Back on topic, it's not a labor problem the US has, it's an engineering, design and manufacturing problem. The reason the US auto industry never recovered from the Japanese "invasion" and higher fuel prices is that we never got a Steve Jobs-like product guy in the auto industry. We got lunkheads like Bob Lutz and Lee Iaoccoca who had no idea how to design cars for the world market. How can an auto worker be motivated when he's making soul-killing junk like Navigators and Saturns?
We lost all electronics manufactuing to the Japanese because the television manufacturers thought they were selling living room furniture, not inceasingly miniaturized solid state technology.
The truth is, until Apple got revived, it wasn't possible to point to a single mass-market industry where Americans could compete with the rest of the world, unless you count software. It's not labor issues or taxation that killed American manufacturing, it's lack of intelligent design and engineering. For proof that it isn't just Asian superiority in these fields, look at Germany. They're holding their own because they value the concepts behind what they are making, as does Apple.
I think it's hilarious and a hopeful sign, if true, that the Taiwanese Chinese now want to develop US engineering, show them how it's done, BY MOVING THEM TO CHINA for apprenticeship.
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse
What is this even supposed to mean? That Apple products aren't complicated (to manufacture)? That Americans can't handle complicated work?
He was meaning that Chinese workers have small nimble fingers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
Oh, no! Americans as slave labor! 80 hour work days! Three dollars compensation!
Nice of you to be so generous.
It won't be Americans working in the FoxConn factories, they will import the labor. It is cheaper that way. No taxes to pay, no benefits. .
And then when FoxConn's factories in America fail, the US government will bail them out and all of us will own a losing interest in the company and the POTUS will declare all the FoxConn workers US citizens. The UAW will change its name to United Apple Workers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flaneur
Tell it to wizard69, not me. He threw the first pile of BS in here.
Back on topic, it's not a labor problem the US has, it's an engineering, design and manufacturing problem. The reason the US auto industry never recovered from the Japanese "invasion" and higher fuel prices is that we never got a Steve Jobs-like product guy in the auto industry. We got lunkheads like Bob Lutz and Lee Iaoccoca who had no idea how to design cars for the world market. How can an auto worker be motivated when he's making soul-killing junk like Navigators and Saturns?
We lost all electronics manufactuing to the Japanese because the television manufacturers thought they were selling living room furniture, not inceasingly miniaturized solid state technology.
The truth is, until Apple got revived, it wasn't possible to point to a single mass-market industry where Americans could compete with the rest of the world, unless you count software. It's not labor issues or taxation that killed American manufacturing, it's lack of intelligent design and engineering. For proof that it isn't just Asian superiority in these fields, look at Germany. They're holding their own because they value the concepts behind what they are making, as does Apple.
I think it's hilarious and a hopeful sign, if true, that the Taiwanese Chinese now want to develop US engineering, show them how it's done, BY MOVING THEM TO CHINA for apprenticeship.
yes the wiz was being an sore loser.
Back on topic, yes that was interesting statement if true. Jobs complained about the same thing. Im not sure what it means.
We have the big Intel plants etc, but these are small compared to Foxxcon. Is it really super large scale assembly operations that they are refering too? There probably is some truth to that. I can't think of many operations world wide that come close to 'hundreds of thousands'(is this correct?) of people required to assembly a single product.
Related story, the large aerospace company I work for has agreed to 'mentor' an aerospace company in Brazil(its all about relationships according the the latest Harvard MBA playbook... /s). Our managment visited and report thousands of young engineers lead by a few old timer college type professors designing their next military cargo aircraft.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69
I could add to this but it would really pull this thread off track. To put it bluntly though there are a huge number of lazy people and or idiots in this country. Sadly everyone of them voted for Obama so I really don't see America becoming competitive manufacturing wise anytime soon.
It's ironic that all these Republicans are using government assisted programs that they want to abolish. You have become the people you hated so fiercely, people without jobs complaining the government doesn't do enough for us. You acknowledge this was the worst economy since the depression but you only get four years to completely turn things around? Unemployment is lower, the stock market went from $6500 to $13,000, saved GM, housing is rebounding, and we have President that can actually communicate unlike Bush Jr.. And for life of me why choose Romney worth $200 million, Harvard graduate and say he's not like Obama.
Not gonna happen.
Wall Street whines if Apple's margins are 1% less and people on this forum whine about dirt cheap $329 gadgets. Look at Apple's stock action lately. Where will the stock be if Apple's margins declines? And imagine if unions get involved in those factories. There is also the question of qualified workers. Factory jobs are not going to be high paying jobs, and I doubt that there are enough qualified people. Are they going to hire illegals and pay them $3 an hour?
I am looking forward to the next four years, tons of more Americans will be unemployed. The American people have spoken.
Quote:
Originally Posted by msimpson
It won't be Americans working in the FoxConn factories, they will import the labor. It is cheaper that way. No taxes to pay, no benefits. .
And then when FoxConn's factories in America fail, the US government will bail them out and all of us will own a losing interest in the company and the POTUS will declare all the FoxConn workers US citizens. The UAW will change its name to United Apple Workers.
Nice positive outlook for your fellow americans (I presume your american), real nice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][
Not gonna happen.
Wall Street whines if Apple's margins are 1% less and people on this forum whine about dirt cheap $329 gadgets. Look at Apple's stock action lately. Where will the stock be if Apple's margins declines?
A little history lesson.
Cook introduced the 4S in October last year then a couple of weeks later he announced that the holiday quarter would be phenomenally high. Where did the stock price go... down... right until the last week of November.
I thought we were going to go up after the last quarter was announced but AAPL seems to be following the same pattern as last year.
Games... just games. AAPL is very oversold at the moment.
Back to you though, there is a reason that there is a growing presence of car manufacturers building cars here. 1. High quality of labor. 2. It reduces their cost sending completed cars half-way across the world. 3. It is cheaper to send car parts here from all over the world. 4. Tax breaks from the federal, state and local governments for setting up manufacturing plants in the US. 5. Import duties on product made overseas protecting products made in the US. 6. Americans buy goods that are "made in America".
A lot of this discussion revolves around cost of inputs and the ability to get incentives for #4 and 5 above. The cost of physical capital in the US is now really cheap while the cost of human capital is very expensive. So, investing in plants with advanced robotics and minimizing the human capital outlays are key. Also, the incentives brought by local, state and federal governments getting people to work at these plants cannot be overlooked. Especially the grants for retraining workers and hiring veterans. They are substantial sums. The last key bit is that Americans prefer (on average) to buy things that are "made in america". What is amazing is that the marketing term: "Made in the USA" is regulated to the extent that foreign manufacture of parts is included in the calculation of the overall weighted average of the total.
I am in favor of increasing manufacturing jobs in the US. Bring it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit
Games... just games. AAPL is very oversold at the moment.
I don't disagree with that at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM
There won't be union problems if a plant is built in a right-to-work state.
I'm sure Americans can handle it but at a competitive rate for consumer electronics? I don't think so.
Right to work is just one of those clever right wing euphemisms that really means, "Right to treat your employees anyway you damn please and fire them if they try to organize."
Yeah, Jobs's answer to Pres. Obama, the one about 700,000 workers needing so many thousands of engineers, has been a curiosity to me since we first heard about it. I'd like to see some background on it.
Are there really that many workers just doing Apple stuff, or was Jobs loosely referring to the total working population of Foxconn factories where Apple was a large supporting customer? And how many engineers per group of workers are needed to lay out and run such plants?
As Jobs said, there aren't enough manufacturing engineers in the US. Where would they work if they got the schooling? Why would any American want to go into the field?
The fact that the Prez even asked the Main Man in US consumer manufacturing (and Obama does have an iPad, so he knows first hand what "designed in California" means) tells us that there is hope for an initiative to promote design and engineering as a US-centered industrial base. Terry Guo can't be unaware that he's dealing with a formidable design engine, unique to the US, or the left coast of the US.
Maybe this is a high-level plot to start working on the Steve Jobs Problem. Give the manufacturing engineers something to do.
The Obama-Cook-Guo Initiative, all very secret at this point, Apple style. "Loose lips sink ships."
End of fantasy.
Great post. Thank you.
P.S. I agree completely.
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse
Right to work is just one of those clever right wing euphemisms that really means, "Right to treat your employees anyway you damn please and fire them if they try to organize."
I wouldn't buy a single Apple product if it was American Union made. I don't support criminal enterprises.