^^ When I see headlines about Apple being "dinged" by iFixit my first thought is so what? Since when is Apple required to design products to meet iFixit' satisfaction? Plus it's not like iFixit is totally impartial. The have their own biases and interests, and the age of computer electronics as appliances isn't good for their business.
First, find a PC vendor who doesn't charge a lot for RAM upgrades. EVERYONE does it. When you buy an option for your car, do you think the manufacturer is offering upgrades at cost? Obviously not.
No one is expecting Apple to offer upgrades "at cost." We're asking for prices that are *reasonable* compared to the *retail* prices of RAM on the open market. Do you think Apple pays the same price you or I do for RAM? Obviously not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
Second, the "I can buy cheapo RAM and install it in my Mac" arguments are not really relevant.
Who's talking about "cheapo RAM?" Prices for Crucial or the best Samsung sticks are literally HALF the price Apple charges. Double the retail price of *good* RAM is gouging when they make it nearly impossible to upgrade it ourselves, thus practically forcing us to buy it from them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
There's just not much need to add more RAM later. Get what you need when you buy it.
We're not talking about later. We're talking about how doing exactly what you describe, getting what you need when you buy it, is much more expensive with a new Apple product than a similar device from another vendor because the design of the Apple product means you pretty much have to buy it from Apple, and Apple's prices for that are still kooky.
We're asking for prices that are *reasonable* compared to the *retail* prices of RAM on the open market.
You don't get to decide what that means.
Simultaneously, you are already deciding what that means, as Apple is a business. If these prices weren't already reasonable, people wouldn't pay them. They're fine.
Ram in the tech specs is not listed as user accessible. Warranty t&c covers the rest
But hey, you go buy a 21.5, shove in your own ram and then take it to Apple for a repair and see what happens.
I have been using OptiBay since it came out. That's the removable of my ODD, the installation of the OptiBay chassis and the installation of an additional HDD in its place. I've taken my MBP into the Apple Store on several occasions over the years and I can tell you they do care... but in the sense they are intrigued by my setup, but when it comes to assisting me with whatever issue I have it's been a moot point. If I had damaged something then that would be a different issue but it hasn't been an issue in terms of voiding my warranty simply by making a simple modification.
Who's talking about "cheapo RAM?" Prices for Crucial or the best Samsung sticks are literally HALF the price Apple charges. Double the retail price of *good* RAM is gouging when they make it nearly impossible to upgrade it ourselves, thus practically forcing us to buy it from them.
Half the price for RAM that neither these web companies are installing and typically have a 30 day warranty and after that require you go through the RAM vendor. What you're dissing is the cost of convenience. If you don't like Apple's prices you have the option to upgrade your own RAM or not buy products from Apple.
You have the option so it's up to you to decide how you want to proceed. The RAM is not soldered in which would not be unprecedented in a Mac at this point so why not be happy to have the option instead of complaining that a PC vendor is charging for the convenience of a BTO product and which helps lower the entry level price of their product.
There is absolutely nothing unusual here. Save for the Windows domain I have running in VMWare Fusion (an admittedly unusual setup) my 8GB RAM in my MBP is more than acceptable. I have to think that most 21.5" iMac buyers are likely going to be well served by 8GB RAM. If it was 4GB standard with a cost of $200 to get 8GB then I could see why that is a forced BTO upgrade because 4GB would be pushing it for the average user.
On RAM and Drives I do agree things should be easier even if the designs make all else return to Apple. I'd like to see the 'disk' part of any Mac of the future, which will be SSD I'm sure, be what I'd term 'pop in pop out' for upgrade, requiring only the release of a safety catch. In fact there should be a second SSD on a MBPro and it should be 'hot swappable' IMHO. Literally the 1 TB floppy of the future. At the very least the higher end Macs should support this kind of flexibility even if consumer models don't.
How many hard drives have failed you? I had this honour two times in 20 years. I even have 512 MB IBM drives still running with no bad sectors.
It will more than likely force people to buy a new computer when their hard drive dies instead of replacing the drive. This is "built-in obsoleteness" is a major complaint for people.
I have to agree with them. Sure it is nice to have a thinner and lighter laptop. But at what point is it ridiculous, especially with the desktops? Does the iMac really need to be so thin?
As a Mac enthusiast since the 80's, I have always loved the fact that I felt like the computer was mine. The operating system was mine. The hardware was mine. Now days it feels like I am just renting it, and they don't want me messing with the OS or with the insides. Just the way it is I guess.
The issue is the perception they are giving. Which is that it can't be repaired at all. And then blogs source this and really hype that up
It can be fixed. By those trained and provided the parts and tools by Apple.
Just not by the average Tom, Dick and Harry that might buy his tools and parts from iFixIt.
Exactly. Why does iFixit even review Apple's stuff, other than dinging Apple provides more traffic to their site.
It will more than likely force people to buy a new computer when their hard drive dies instead of replacing the drive. This is "built-in obsoleteness" is a major complaint for people.
Ram in the tech specs is not listed as user accessible. Warranty t&c covers the rest
But hey, you go buy a 21.5, shove in your own ram and then take it to Apple for a repair and see what happens.
It doesn't have to say that the RAM is user accessible to be covered. Actually, it's the other way around. The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act in the US, and its equivalents in other countries, stipulates that Tie-In-Sales Provisions are generally not allowed. The default is therefore to assume you are allowed to change the parts in your machine without voiding the warranty, unless the warranty explicitly prohibits you from doing so, and Apple's warranty can only do that, explicitly prohibit such replacements, if they first apply to the FTC to get a waiver to do so. So far as I can see, there is no evidence that they have done so.
Are we forgetting that since day #1 Apple has claimed it isn't concerned with the price when designing its computers? Rather they want to build the best machines possible for their intended purpose, yet here we are with people complaining that Apple's upgrade prices for HDs and RAM is too expensive. Perhaps Apple isn't the brand for you in that case. But do note, since Apple can and will upgrade your HD and RAM in the future, your issue with the new iMacs isn't one about the design of these new super thin machines, but with the costs of the machine over the course of its lifetime. Just be honest then and say you can't afford them.
People know the deal with Apple and have known it since forever. So why they still complain year after year is beyond me. If upgrading and repairing a machine on your own is that important to someone then Apple computers are obviously not the product for them. So rather than bitch and complain just don't buy their stuff. It's not like Apple is putting a gun to someone's head forcing them to buy their stuff.
Also if all this stuff was so important to most people Apple would be catering to their needs, no? At the end of the day they're most interested in making the sale. Clearly their design decisions are not impacting their sales otherwise they would be doing something else,
Another reason why repair ability is great is that we don't have money to buy a new macbook for school, so I invested in an intel SSD on sale and easily replaced it in an 08 Macbook. Thing runs like a dream now. Easily will last another year until graduation.
And then the Ram died in the machine. Loud beeping and error message on bootup. New set of cheap ram, popped it in. Done. $200 for SSD and Ram vs $1100 for Macbook that's really not needed after graduation. Hmmm.
That's the problem for many of us. All these changes seem to benefit Apple and not the consumer. Any desktop computer should have easy access to exchanging a hard drive which tend to fail after a certain amount of time, usually the day after the warranty expires. They should also allow easy access to upgrade the RAM. It seems Apple is making it more difficult to steer you towards buying a new iMac in a few years rather than trying to keep the one you have in working condition.
And to others saying Apple RAM is such high quality, you better check your facts. They use Hynix and other medium quality brands typically. They do not use some magical or ultra-premium brand memory or hard drives. There is no justification for them to charge 2 to 3 times retail price when they already get a huge discount off retail since they buy in bulk quantity.
You are right. The term 'professionals' used in the graphics world really covers two distinctly different groups I've found after being in this business since its inception. Those that are into the tech as much as the graphics and they do upgrade everything an anything they can. Then there is the other group, those that simply use the equipment to churn out their client's needs with little or no more interest in the equipment than they would a box of pencils. The latter group are often still using old Macs and really old versions of Adobe's or other graphics programs. In fact they dread the thought of even having to learn a new version of their own software in many cases. I know a graphics guy that uses a G4 and Quark Express and never went near the 'whole web thing'. Print is all he is interested in.
Regarding the MacFixit folks comments. It's kind of like the two man, corner garage complaining they can't do anything with a new BMW's engine because they have none of the computer equipment or specialized tools, let alone the knowledge. Times move on. Heck as a student I had to replace my own cylinder head gasket and all the break pipes to keep my junker running, now I can barely recognize what's under the hood of a vehicle. As others have said this is the price of progress. The folks at MacFixit should be planning alternative careers or plan to specialize on old equipment repairs, perhaps setting up in a corner garage?
Macs have traditionally been popular with creative types (authors, graphics artists, musicians), going all the way back to the original Macintosh. Anyone non-technical would find the Mac really approachable. I don't see iMac's lack of 'caveman repairability' to be an issue, now that Apple has genius bars in most major cities.
Meanwhile, 10 of 10 iMacs Apple tries to fix... somehow get fixed.
I'm not sure that I would trust my local Apple store to reseal this thing properly if they had to open it for repairs. It's like when the windscreen on your car smashes - the replacement never seems to be as good.
Comments
When I see headlines about Apple being "dinged" by iFixit my first thought is so what? Since when is Apple required to design products to meet iFixit' satisfaction? Plus it's not like iFixit is totally impartial. The have their own biases and interests, and the age of computer electronics as appliances isn't good for their business.
Ram in the tech specs is not listed as user accessible. Warranty t&c covers the rest
But hey, you go buy a 21.5, shove in your own ram and then take it to Apple for a repair and see what happens.
The issue is the perception they are giving. Which is that it can't be repaired at all. And then blogs source this and really hype that up
It can be fixed. By those trained and provided the parts and tools by Apple.
Just not by the average Tom, Dick and Harry that might buy his tools and parts from iFixIt.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
First, find a PC vendor who doesn't charge a lot for RAM upgrades. EVERYONE does it. When you buy an option for your car, do you think the manufacturer is offering upgrades at cost? Obviously not.
No one is expecting Apple to offer upgrades "at cost." We're asking for prices that are *reasonable* compared to the *retail* prices of RAM on the open market. Do you think Apple pays the same price you or I do for RAM? Obviously not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
Second, the "I can buy cheapo RAM and install it in my Mac" arguments are not really relevant.
Who's talking about "cheapo RAM?" Prices for Crucial or the best Samsung sticks are literally HALF the price Apple charges. Double the retail price of *good* RAM is gouging when they make it nearly impossible to upgrade it ourselves, thus practically forcing us to buy it from them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
There's just not much need to add more RAM later. Get what you need when you buy it.
We're not talking about later. We're talking about how doing exactly what you describe, getting what you need when you buy it, is much more expensive with a new Apple product than a similar device from another vendor because the design of the Apple product means you pretty much have to buy it from Apple, and Apple's prices for that are still kooky.
Originally Posted by v5v
We're asking for prices that are *reasonable* compared to the *retail* prices of RAM on the open market.
You don't get to decide what that means.
Simultaneously, you are already deciding what that means, as Apple is a business. If these prices weren't already reasonable, people wouldn't pay them. They're fine.
I have been using OptiBay since it came out. That's the removable of my ODD, the installation of the OptiBay chassis and the installation of an additional HDD in its place. I've taken my MBP into the Apple Store on several occasions over the years and I can tell you they do care... but in the sense they are intrigued by my setup, but when it comes to assisting me with whatever issue I have it's been a moot point. If I had damaged something then that would be a different issue but it hasn't been an issue in terms of voiding my warranty simply by making a simple modification.
Half the price for RAM that neither these web companies are installing and typically have a 30 day warranty and after that require you go through the RAM vendor. What you're dissing is the cost of convenience. If you don't like Apple's prices you have the option to upgrade your own RAM or not buy products from Apple.
You have the option so it's up to you to decide how you want to proceed. The RAM is not soldered in which would not be unprecedented in a Mac at this point so why not be happy to have the option instead of complaining that a PC vendor is charging for the convenience of a BTO product and which helps lower the entry level price of their product.
There is absolutely nothing unusual here. Save for the Windows domain I have running in VMWare Fusion (an admittedly unusual setup) my 8GB RAM in my MBP is more than acceptable. I have to think that most 21.5" iMac buyers are likely going to be well served by 8GB RAM. If it was 4GB standard with a cost of $200 to get 8GB then I could see why that is a forced BTO upgrade because 4GB would be pushing it for the average user.
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips
On RAM and Drives I do agree things should be easier even if the designs make all else return to Apple. I'd like to see the 'disk' part of any Mac of the future, which will be SSD I'm sure, be what I'd term 'pop in pop out' for upgrade, requiring only the release of a safety catch. In fact there should be a second SSD on a MBPro and it should be 'hot swappable' IMHO. Literally the 1 TB floppy of the future. At the very least the higher end Macs should support this kind of flexibility even if consumer models don't.
How many hard drives have failed you? I had this honour two times in 20 years. I even have 512 MB IBM drives still running with no bad sectors.
It will more than likely force people to buy a new computer when their hard drive dies instead of replacing the drive. This is "built-in obsoleteness" is a major complaint for people.
I have to agree with them. Sure it is nice to have a thinner and lighter laptop. But at what point is it ridiculous, especially with the desktops? Does the iMac really need to be so thin?
As a Mac enthusiast since the 80's, I have always loved the fact that I felt like the computer was mine. The operating system was mine. The hardware was mine. Now days it feels like I am just renting it, and they don't want me messing with the OS or with the insides. Just the way it is I guess.
It does afford numerous benefits to Apple.
Originally Posted by Rogifan
Do you have some stats for this?
No, but he can always make them up.
It doesn't have to say that the RAM is user accessible to be covered. Actually, it's the other way around. The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act in the US, and its equivalents in other countries, stipulates that Tie-In-Sales Provisions are generally not allowed. The default is therefore to assume you are allowed to change the parts in your machine without voiding the warranty, unless the warranty explicitly prohibits you from doing so, and Apple's warranty can only do that, explicitly prohibit such replacements, if they first apply to the FTC to get a waiver to do so. So far as I can see, there is no evidence that they have done so.
Also if all this stuff was so important to most people Apple would be catering to their needs, no? At the end of the day they're most interested in making the sale. Clearly their design decisions are not impacting their sales otherwise they would be doing something else,
maybe you should ask appleinsider that question and not ifixit.
And then the Ram died in the machine. Loud beeping and error message on bootup. New set of cheap ram, popped it in. Done. $200 for SSD and Ram vs $1100 for Macbook that's really not needed after graduation. Hmmm.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
It does afford numerous benefits to Apple.
That's the problem for many of us. All these changes seem to benefit Apple and not the consumer. Any desktop computer should have easy access to exchanging a hard drive which tend to fail after a certain amount of time, usually the day after the warranty expires. They should also allow easy access to upgrade the RAM. It seems Apple is making it more difficult to steer you towards buying a new iMac in a few years rather than trying to keep the one you have in working condition.
And to others saying Apple RAM is such high quality, you better check your facts. They use Hynix and other medium quality brands typically. They do not use some magical or ultra-premium brand memory or hard drives. There is no justification for them to charge 2 to 3 times retail price when they already get a huge discount off retail since they buy in bulk quantity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips
You are right. The term 'professionals' used in the graphics world really covers two distinctly different groups I've found after being in this business since its inception. Those that are into the tech as much as the graphics and they do upgrade everything an anything they can. Then there is the other group, those that simply use the equipment to churn out their client's needs with little or no more interest in the equipment than they would a box of pencils. The latter group are often still using old Macs and really old versions of Adobe's or other graphics programs. In fact they dread the thought of even having to learn a new version of their own software in many cases. I know a graphics guy that uses a G4 and Quark Express and never went near the 'whole web thing'. Print is all he is interested in.
Regarding the MacFixit folks comments. It's kind of like the two man, corner garage complaining they can't do anything with a new BMW's engine because they have none of the computer equipment or specialized tools, let alone the knowledge. Times move on. Heck as a student I had to replace my own cylinder head gasket and all the break pipes to keep my junker running, now I can barely recognize what's under the hood of a vehicle. As others have said this is the price of progress. The folks at MacFixit should be planning alternative careers or plan to specialize on old equipment repairs, perhaps setting up in a corner garage?
Macs have traditionally been popular with creative types (authors, graphics artists, musicians), going all the way back to the original Macintosh. Anyone non-technical would find the Mac really approachable. I don't see iMac's lack of 'caveman repairability' to be an issue, now that Apple has genius bars in most major cities.