That's the problem for many of us. All these changes seem to benefit Apple and not the consumer.
I would say most, if not all, benefit Apple but it's hard to see how none of them benefit the consumer.
Any desktop computer should have easy access to exchanging a hard drive which tend to fail after a certain amount of time, usually the day after the warranty expires. They should also allow easy access to upgrade the RAM. It seems Apple is making it more difficult to steer you towards buying a new iMac in a few years rather than trying to keep the one you have in working condition.
1) There is no "should." This is a free market. They break no laws by making their 21.5" iMac the way they do. Because it's free market if we, the consumer, don't like what they offer we don't have to buy. If this hurts sales then they will likely focus on changing that in order to regain those sales.
2) From what I recall from Google's tests HDDs tend to break down almost immediately (well within the warranty) or work for a long time and there was no single brand that better or worse overall.
3) If Apple's goal was simply to keep you buying new Macs every couple years then why so few options? Why so few updates? Why offer BTO options that will increase the life of your Mac considerably? Why try to make Mac OS X more efficient with each revision? And why allow the 27" iMac to have access to upgrade the RAM -and- give it 4 slots instead of just 2?
And to others saying Apple RAM is such high quality, you better check your facts. They use Hynix and other medium quality brands typically. They do not use some magical or ultra-premium brand memory or hard drives. There is no justification for them to charge 2 to 3 times retail price when they already get a huge discount off retail since they buy in bulk quantity.
I don't buy RAM based solely on a brand name. A brand name you have had experience can give you peace of mind on quality, warranted or not, but there are other aspects that need to be considered. For instance, the RAM I'll be buying for my iMac will cost me $300. Sure, I can it at half that price if I want the cheapest but I want the RAM with the lowest latency.
With 2x4GB RAM used in the iFixit breakdown they aren't using the RAM with the lowest latency (but are using low voltage, and halogen and lead free RAM) but that doesn't mean that the for RAM upgrades they aren't using higher performing RAM. But if they aren't, it's not an issue because that's their choice to charge the customer what they want for upgrades. Again, free market. They have a right to set the prices for a product they have to test, install and warranty just as you have the right to not buy it.
What would you rather they do start each Mac base model $200 more per unit and then charge you sell RAM upgrades at wholesale prices? Either way they have figured out what they produce and what they can sell at a certain price point. There is science behind all these prices.
PS: I think the focus was on the 27" iMac with the 21.5" following suit but with extra limitations do to the much smaller internal space for component placement. At least we got an iMac update which is apparently a big deal since I keep hearing Apple doesn't care about Macs anymore and yet the Mac has never been better.
That's the problem for many of us. All these changes seem to benefit Apple and not the consumer. Any desktop computer should have easy access to exchanging a hard drive which tend to fail after a certain amount of time, usually the day after the warranty expires. They should also allow easy access to upgrade the RAM. It seems Apple is making it more difficult to steer you towards buying a new iMac in a few years rather than trying to keep the one you have in working condition.
I don't agree with blanket statements like "these changes benefit Apple;" If a Mac needs to be repaired under warranty, the presumed extra cost of repair will be passed on to Apple. Product recalls outside of warranty would also cost them more.
If failure happens out of warranty, there's no guarantee the repair will be done by Apple: there are non-factory-authorized repair shops the owner could take it to. If the owner decides the junk the computer, there's no guarantee they'll buy another Mac.
As for the "keep the one you have in working condition" comment, I still have a perfectly working 12" iBook 500Mhz G3, 384MB of RAM, 30GB HDD. It's completely obsolete. Adding RAM and HDD might buy some time, but in the end, the benefits are limited, because you can't replace the CPU or graphics card. I've got PCs I can replace the CPU in, and even that is limited by BIOS support, so most of the time, all I can do is minor speed bump, which is almost never worth the cost. I can't turn an old Pentium 4 machine into a Core i7 machine with some processor upgrade.
I'm not sure that I would trust my local Apple store to reseal this thing properly if they had to open it for repairs. It's like when the windscreen on your car smashes - the replacement never seems to be as good.
Apple repairs or replacements are also done with warranties.
How dare Apple not consult iFixit on the ease of repair and upgradability before designing their products.
Ridiculous comment IMO. iFixit did not ask Apple to consult them. Sites like this one legitimately have criticisms of Apple's and other products. It's perfectly legitimate to criticize Apple's products and how easy it is to upgrade or repair them when it's warranted. If you disagree with the conclusion, argue the point rationally. But if your argument is "like Apple's products no matter what or go buy something else" then any review site should just shut down because they serve no purpose.
While I care far less about repairability than upgradability, I think Apple has made a bad tradeoff for consumers. I have upgraded, over time, virtually all of my Apple computers at one point or another. I had a G4 tower and I upgraded the memory, changed out the hard disk twice and converted the original read-only CD drive to a read/write drive. I now have a late 2008 MacBook pro and I was able to quite easily switch out the hard disk for a larger unit when I ran out of storage space. I purchased the machine with upgraded memory, but it's nice to know that I can still upgrade it myself with more memory and that I don't have to buy that memory from Apple.
Apple is now forcing consumers to make memory and hard disk decisions up front and not letting them upgrade (for the most part) after the fact. If you run out of disk space, tough, you either have to buy an external drive or buy a new computer. I don't consider that very friendly. IMO, we're giving away too much because of Apple's obsession with thinness. Thinness is great, but not at the cost of not being able to upgrade a machine.
I also happen to be a long-time Nikon camera user. But Nikon recently changed their repair policy in that they no longer sell parts to third parties, not even simple user-replacable parts like a battery door. They've also substantially increased their own repair prices AND they have a big backlog, so if you send them a camera or lens, it make take months to get it back. I consider that to be very consumer unfriendly as well.
Ridiculous comment IMO. iFixit did not ask Apple to consult them.
Wait a minute…
Apple is now forcing consumers to make memory and hard disk decisions up front…
The iMac has never had a hard drive that was easy to get to. As for RAM, I think of it more that Apple is forcing themselves to make memory decisions up front. Once their entire line goes to unmodifiable RAM chips, they'll know exactly how many of their users have how much RAM, and they can write software around those numbers.
Can't write something that hogs 6GB of RAM when a majority of your userbase only has 8, yeah? Boom; stuff's made slimmer.
…not at the cost of not being able to upgrade a machine.
This is going to be seen as an archaic mindset very soon, and Steve will finally get his first really unfulfilled wish.
…not even simple user-replacable parts like a battery door.
Crap. Maybe I should go find a replacement door for my CoolPix right now, then… Or maybe buy from a company that doesn't use battery doors, and therefore doesn't have battery doors that break all the dang time under normal use. Thanks for the tip, though!
It's actually quite easy for us 'ordinary' users - the Mac Mini has an excellently written and illustrated manual. These manuals have been a great Apple tradition for years!
Which manual would that be? The Service Manual; only for Authorized Personnel Only? Or did you get a written service manual with your Mini?
There are millions of users and it's impossible to generalise on their requirements, so in my opinion this Imac would be a better product if there was user access to the RAM and hard drive for those who need access.
Those who need access get a Mac Pro, because of that very fact.
Again we have the classic battle between the techie tinkerers and the normal users. I notice, however, that the naysayers have changed their tunes a bit. They used to come into threads like this one predicting the product D.O.A. or Epic Fail. Then they of course had to slink away when whatever it was sold like there was no tomorrow (think iPhone 4 and original iPad). They still rant and rave of course but there are no more doomsday predictions, just lamentations that only stupid people buy Apple and that the iSheep will buy anything.
That stupendously ugly piece of trash posted by Tallest Skil is right up their alley however.
Half the price for RAM that neither these web companies are installing and typically have a 30 day warranty and after that require you go through the RAM vendor. What you're dissing is the cost of convenience.
You're starting to sound like an Apple apologist. Installing? Seriously? We're paying double for them to INSTALL it? While they're assembling the machine anyway? They are MAKING it a cost of convenience by making it really really really really inconvenient for me or anyone else to do it.
As for the 30 day warranty, read what I wrote. Crucial offers a LIFETIME warranty and still comes in at half of what Apple's upgrade costs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
If you don't like Apple's prices you have the option to upgrade your own RAM [...]
But that's the point of this whole discussion! Apple is making it damn near impossible for the user to open their machines, so while the option does technically exist, in real-life terms it's NOT a genuine option. I do not have the means to remove the glued-on face of an iMac, and I'm a handy type.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
[...] or not buy products from Apple.
I guess, but I can't imagine this trend towards commodification of Apple computers being good for shareholders in the long term. "Better" is the whole reason most of us came to Apple in the first place. When the way to get the best hardware configurations is to NOT buy Apple, I think that's a problem.
Okay, I guess that's not completely fair. One CAN get top-line configurations from Apple, but only at prices much higher than other sources for EXACTLY THE SAME THING.
You're starting to sound like an Apple apologist. Installing? Seriously? We're paying double for them to INSTALL it?
I never said that it was double to install it. I stated multiple reasons why a vendor would charge more for RAM upgrades than it costs them to buy at wholesale. You don't have to like it but you have to accept it.
As for the 30 day warranty, read what I wrote. Crucial offers a LIFETIME warranty and still comes in at half of what Apple's upgrade costs.
And how exactly does that warranty work? I make a claim that the RAM is bad and Crucial will send me a box to ship my 27" iMac to them on their dime? Of course not!
Surely you understand how these companies that sell components with lifetime warranties work.
But that's the point of this whole discussion! Apple is making it damn near impossible for the user to open their machines, so while the option does technically exist, in real-life terms it's NOT a genuine option.
Looks pretty damn easy on the 27" iMac.
I do not have the means to remove the glued-on face of an iMac, and I'm a handy type.
You have no means of getting a guitar pick and rolling it around the seam?
I guess, but I can't imagine this trend towards commodification of Apple computers being good for shareholders in the long term. "Better" is the whole reason most of us came to Apple in the first place. When the way to get the best hardware configurations is to NOT buy Apple, I think that's a problem.
That's a completely different discussion and your opinion on that matter is a valid one. However, this isn't Apple's first push in this direction and yet their Macs seem to be even more and more popular. And let's not forget that notebooks have always been less upgradable than desktops yet are more popular with customers than desktops, and iDevices are considerably more popular than them and yet have nothing the user can service themselves.
The fact is your wishes for a wildly upgradable CE just isn't what drives the market so I'd say that your fears of a declining stock price are unfounded. That is not to say your wishes are unreasonable but your expectations are.
Okay, I guess that's not completely fair. One CAN get top-line configurations from Apple, but only at prices much higher than other sources for EXACTLY THE SAME THING.
No, you can't get exactly the same thing from other vendors. It's impossible. You can pair components to create a reasonable comparison along many aspects but it's not EXACTLY THE SAME THING.
We seems to see less of it these days as Apple has gotten even farther ahead in the "PC" market but we used to see many claims that this of that WinPC was better but cheaper than some Mac. These comparisons never looked at the display quality or battery life or build quality or any other relevant factor that makes me a returning Mac customer. I guess the focus has changed to say things like "Android phones have had LTE for years now" which is a great example of the poster not understanding the difference between LTE in the iPhone 5 and LTE chips in obsolete Android phones.
Now I know there are people that would dispute me on this, but I've owned Macs starting with the 128K Mac to a 27" iMac and have not had a single repair issue in all these years... including my laptops from a Duo to a MBP. Every HD has rum flawlessly until the day I unplug the Mac and set it aside for my newer Mac. I've only upgraded the RAM three times in my Macs in the last 28 years. Macs just work. All this crap about repairability must be a Windows PC thing, but it's not an Apple thing.
You have been incredibly lucky. Of the seven Macs our family has owned since we switched at the end of 2007, six have had a fault that required a repair: four MacBook Pros, one Mini, and one Pro tower. Worn out hard drives, bad RAM, fan failure, ALL of the optical drives... nothing particularly remarkable or unusual -- mostly mechanical parts -- but not the kind of invulnerability you've enjoyed.
You have been incredibly lucky. Of the seven Macs our family has owned since we switched at the end of 2007, six have had a fault that required a repair: four MacBook Pros, one Mini, and one Pro tower. Worn out hard drives, bad RAM, fan failure, ALL of the optical drives... nothing particularly remarkable or unusual -- mostly mechanical parts -- but not the kind of invulnerability you've enjoyed.
Sorry to hear that. I don't think he's "lucky". Rather, statistically, you are unlucky. My experience:
iBook G3 - 2001 - still operational, no repairs needed
PowerBook G4 - 2006 - still operational, no repairs needed
MacBook Pro 2008 - still operational, no repairs needed
MacBook Air 2010 - still operational, no repairs needed
On the PC side, I've owned various BYO Windows machines over the 15 years with just two that blew capacitors, two that had RAM chips fail, and one statistically very unlucky Pentium 4-based PC that had a string of failures, including a ball bearing that failed on a cooling fan, bad RAM, bad DVD-drive. But these failures are still in the minority. My brand-named office PCs are similar: just one DELL workstation out of 5 PCs failed (blow capacitor) in the last decade.
You have been incredibly lucky. Of the seven Macs our family has owned since we switched at the end of 2007, six have had a fault that required a repair: four MacBook Pros, one Mini, and one Pro tower. Worn out hard drives, bad RAM, fan failure, ALL of the optical drives... nothing particularly remarkable or unusual -- mostly mechanical parts -- but not the kind of invulnerability you've enjoyed.
I guess I have been incredibly lucky too. The only problem I ever had was the power supply on my Power Mac 8100 and I have been an Apple customer since 1982. From my perspective YOU are the unlucky one and I am the norm.
I'm able to decide what's reasonable to me, and I think it's pretty safe to generalize about DOUBLE the going rate being considered unreasonable by most sensible shoppers. If the car rental company charged you TWICE the rate at the pumps to fill up the car when you return it, and glued on the gas cap, would you not feel comfortable calling that "unreasonable?" I would, and I think most people would. If you wouldn't, you are either the most easy-going person on Earth or lacking in value perception.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
If these prices weren't already reasonable, people wouldn't pay them. They're fine.
You think so, huh? The consensus here appears to be that people are NOT paying those prices, which is why they're upset about now being forced to.
Of course, the only way to know for sure is to consult sales stats for BTO RAM and storage upgrades, which I don't think you or I will ever see.
How many hard drives have failed you? I had this honour two times in 20 years. I even have 512 MB IBM drives still running with no bad sectors.
I have no idea how you have managed that. I have never, ever, kept a machine in use for more than three years without a hard drive replacement. Never. Maybe my use patterns are more drive intensive than yours?
I have no idea how you have managed that. I have never, ever, kept a machine in use for more than three years without a hard drive replacement. Never. Maybe my use patterns are more drive intensive than yours?
I say I haven't used a desktop PC for personal use in almost 15 years but that's entire accurate. I bought a 1GHz iMac back in the day — the ones with the round base and swivel flatscreen — for my niece and nephew. They've since outgrown and I was able to get it back. No keyboard or mouse connected by SSH was enabled so I was able to find enough Terminal commands to get screen sharing enabled. I now have it on my desk awaiting my 27" iMac to take its place. It's only use now is to connect to a Cisco router in my rack (one that connects to the rest of my Cisco equipment via an 8 port async cable), but I digress.
Anyway, it's still the original configuration with no mods and it's working fine despite about a decade of use. I think your history is very atypical.
PS: I'd like to mod this beautiful machine with Mac mini internals and a new display but I think to do it right would be too much trouble. It would be easy to place a Mac mini inside but I want ports to line up, I want a Time Capsule inside (with the Mac mini connected via GigE), I want the display to be IPS and higher resolution, and hopefully larger but in a casing that matches the exterior.
I have no idea how you have managed that. I have never, ever, kept a machine in use for more than three years without a hard drive replacement. Never. Maybe my use patterns are more drive intensive than yours?
I wouldn't say that it's typical to replace hard drives every 3 years in a Mac but replacing them is a lot more common than some people would have you believe. My v.2 G5 iMac went through 2 hard drives in 4 years. I gave up after the 3rd one gave up the ghost after 16 months... and it had been replaced by Apple. I think there was a heat issue in that particular version of the G5.
Otherwise I haven't had any other problems with drives... but then again, when it was easy to service them I would buy my own drives, so maybe the quality was better.
The only other fault I've had is with my Intel mid 2007 iMac. Apparently there were a few that went out the door with bad graphics cards. Won't let me upgrade beyond 10.6.2. By the time I found out about the problem it was too late and Apple wanted nothing to do with it. Couldn't sell it, couldn't upgrade the OS... so I've just kept it running... and, of course, it will probably run for the next 15 years.
I never said that it was double to install it. I stated multiple reasons why a vendor would charge more for RAM upgrades than it costs them to buy at wholesale. You don't have to like it but you have to accept it.
Fair enough. Point taken.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
The fact is your wishes for a wildly upgradable CE just isn't what drives the market so I'd say that your fears of a declining stock price are unfounded. That is not to say your wishes are unreasonable but your expectations are.
Hm, so what you're saying is that not everyone has the same expectations I do? Are you sure? It certainly seems to ME that they SHOULD. I'll have to give that some thought...
(wanders away mumbling and confused...)
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
[...] we used to see many claims that this of that WinPC was better but cheaper than some Mac. These comparisons never looked at the display quality or battery life or build quality or any other relevant factor that makes me a returning Mac customer.
I totally get that, and that's why I paid almost $4000 for my last MBP after AppleCare and tax rather than the roughly $3000-$3500ish it would have cost for the Asus hotrod I was considering as an alternative. My feeling is that they're getting their pound of flesh (454g in Canada) and then some on the purchase price -- no other computer makes comes CLOSE to the margins Apple manages to persuade us to let them enjoy -- and punching us in the nuts over upgrades is just... well, greedy. Again, I'm NOT asking for parts at cost, but even just similar margins to what they make on their machines: 30-35 points over cost, which would make the end user price roughly 25% more than third-party alternatives. THAT would be in the range that calling it a "convenience fee" would reasonable, and I'd be less upset about Apple sealing up the chassis.
Comments
I would say most, if not all, benefit Apple but it's hard to see how none of them benefit the consumer.
1) There is no "should." This is a free market. They break no laws by making their 21.5" iMac the way they do. Because it's free market if we, the consumer, don't like what they offer we don't have to buy. If this hurts sales then they will likely focus on changing that in order to regain those sales.
2) From what I recall from Google's tests HDDs tend to break down almost immediately (well within the warranty) or work for a long time and there was no single brand that better or worse overall.
3) If Apple's goal was simply to keep you buying new Macs every couple years then why so few options? Why so few updates? Why offer BTO options that will increase the life of your Mac considerably? Why try to make Mac OS X more efficient with each revision? And why allow the 27" iMac to have access to upgrade the RAM -and- give it 4 slots instead of just 2?
I don't buy RAM based solely on a brand name. A brand name you have had experience can give you peace of mind on quality, warranted or not, but there are other aspects that need to be considered. For instance, the RAM I'll be buying for my iMac will cost me $300. Sure, I can it at half that price if I want the cheapest but I want the RAM with the lowest latency.
With 2x4GB RAM used in the iFixit breakdown they aren't using the RAM with the lowest latency (but are using low voltage, and halogen and lead free RAM) but that doesn't mean that the for RAM upgrades they aren't using higher performing RAM. But if they aren't, it's not an issue because that's their choice to charge the customer what they want for upgrades. Again, free market. They have a right to set the prices for a product they have to test, install and warranty just as you have the right to not buy it.
What would you rather they do start each Mac base model $200 more per unit and then charge you sell RAM upgrades at wholesale prices? Either way they have figured out what they produce and what they can sell at a certain price point. There is science behind all these prices.
PS: I think the focus was on the 27" iMac with the 21.5" following suit but with extra limitations do to the much smaller internal space for component placement. At least we got an iMac update which is apparently a big deal since I keep hearing Apple doesn't care about Macs anymore and yet the Mac has never been better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwmac
That's the problem for many of us. All these changes seem to benefit Apple and not the consumer. Any desktop computer should have easy access to exchanging a hard drive which tend to fail after a certain amount of time, usually the day after the warranty expires. They should also allow easy access to upgrade the RAM. It seems Apple is making it more difficult to steer you towards buying a new iMac in a few years rather than trying to keep the one you have in working condition.
I don't agree with blanket statements like "these changes benefit Apple;" If a Mac needs to be repaired under warranty, the presumed extra cost of repair will be passed on to Apple. Product recalls outside of warranty would also cost them more.
If failure happens out of warranty, there's no guarantee the repair will be done by Apple: there are non-factory-authorized repair shops the owner could take it to. If the owner decides the junk the computer, there's no guarantee they'll buy another Mac.
As for the "keep the one you have in working condition" comment, I still have a perfectly working 12" iBook 500Mhz G3, 384MB of RAM, 30GB HDD. It's completely obsolete. Adding RAM and HDD might buy some time, but in the end, the benefits are limited, because you can't replace the CPU or graphics card. I've got PCs I can replace the CPU in, and even that is limited by BIOS support, so most of the time, all I can do is minor speed bump, which is almost never worth the cost. I can't turn an old Pentium 4 machine into a Core i7 machine with some processor upgrade.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hentaiboy
I'm not sure that I would trust my local Apple store to reseal this thing properly if they had to open it for repairs. It's like when the windscreen on your car smashes - the replacement never seems to be as good.
Apple repairs or replacements are also done with warranties.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Amhran
How dare Apple not consult iFixit on the ease of repair and upgradability before designing their products.
Ridiculous comment IMO. iFixit did not ask Apple to consult them. Sites like this one legitimately have criticisms of Apple's and other products. It's perfectly legitimate to criticize Apple's products and how easy it is to upgrade or repair them when it's warranted. If you disagree with the conclusion, argue the point rationally. But if your argument is "like Apple's products no matter what or go buy something else" then any review site should just shut down because they serve no purpose.
While I care far less about repairability than upgradability, I think Apple has made a bad tradeoff for consumers. I have upgraded, over time, virtually all of my Apple computers at one point or another. I had a G4 tower and I upgraded the memory, changed out the hard disk twice and converted the original read-only CD drive to a read/write drive. I now have a late 2008 MacBook pro and I was able to quite easily switch out the hard disk for a larger unit when I ran out of storage space. I purchased the machine with upgraded memory, but it's nice to know that I can still upgrade it myself with more memory and that I don't have to buy that memory from Apple.
Apple is now forcing consumers to make memory and hard disk decisions up front and not letting them upgrade (for the most part) after the fact. If you run out of disk space, tough, you either have to buy an external drive or buy a new computer. I don't consider that very friendly. IMO, we're giving away too much because of Apple's obsession with thinness. Thinness is great, but not at the cost of not being able to upgrade a machine.
I also happen to be a long-time Nikon camera user. But Nikon recently changed their repair policy in that they no longer sell parts to third parties, not even simple user-replacable parts like a battery door. They've also substantially increased their own repair prices AND they have a big backlog, so if you send them a camera or lens, it make take months to get it back. I consider that to be very consumer unfriendly as well.
It's perfectly legitimate to criticize this.
Originally Posted by zoetmb
Ridiculous comment IMO. iFixit did not ask Apple to consult them.
Wait a minute…
Apple is now forcing consumers to make memory and hard disk decisions up front…
The iMac has never had a hard drive that was easy to get to. As for RAM, I think of it more that Apple is forcing themselves to make memory decisions up front. Once their entire line goes to unmodifiable RAM chips, they'll know exactly how many of their users have how much RAM, and they can write software around those numbers.
Can't write something that hogs 6GB of RAM when a majority of your userbase only has 8, yeah? Boom; stuff's made slimmer.
…not at the cost of not being able to upgrade a machine.
This is going to be seen as an archaic mindset very soon, and Steve will finally get his first really unfulfilled wish.
…not even simple user-replacable parts like a battery door.
Crap. Maybe I should go find a replacement door for my CoolPix right now, then… Or maybe buy from a company that doesn't use battery doors, and therefore doesn't have battery doors that break all the dang time under normal use. Thanks for the tip, though!
Because people are already doing that - out of frustration perhaps.
You missed the pic in step 6:
And I missed the sticker: "copied in South Korea"
Which manual would that be? The Service Manual; only for Authorized Personnel Only? Or did you get a written service manual with your Mini?
Those who need access get a Mac Pro, because of that very fact.
Originally Posted by PhilBoogie
You missed the pic in step 6:
That's the display panel only.
edit: Tim also mentioned this at AllThingD about the iPhone "some parts are made in the USA". I am looking forward to next weeks' interview.
Again we have the classic battle between the techie tinkerers and the normal users. I notice, however, that the naysayers have changed their tunes a bit. They used to come into threads like this one predicting the product D.O.A. or Epic Fail. Then they of course had to slink away when whatever it was sold like there was no tomorrow (think iPhone 4 and original iPad). They still rant and rave of course but there are no more doomsday predictions, just lamentations that only stupid people buy Apple and that the iSheep will buy anything.
That stupendously ugly piece of trash posted by Tallest Skil is right up their alley however.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
Half the price for RAM that neither these web companies are installing and typically have a 30 day warranty and after that require you go through the RAM vendor. What you're dissing is the cost of convenience.
You're starting to sound like an Apple apologist. Installing? Seriously? We're paying double for them to INSTALL it? While they're assembling the machine anyway? They are MAKING it a cost of convenience by making it really really really really inconvenient for me or anyone else to do it.
As for the 30 day warranty, read what I wrote. Crucial offers a LIFETIME warranty and still comes in at half of what Apple's upgrade costs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
If you don't like Apple's prices you have the option to upgrade your own RAM [...]
But that's the point of this whole discussion! Apple is making it damn near impossible for the user to open their machines, so while the option does technically exist, in real-life terms it's NOT a genuine option. I do not have the means to remove the glued-on face of an iMac, and I'm a handy type.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
[...] or not buy products from Apple.
I guess, but I can't imagine this trend towards commodification of Apple computers being good for shareholders in the long term. "Better" is the whole reason most of us came to Apple in the first place. When the way to get the best hardware configurations is to NOT buy Apple, I think that's a problem.
Okay, I guess that's not completely fair. One CAN get top-line configurations from Apple, but only at prices much higher than other sources for EXACTLY THE SAME THING.
I never said that it was double to install it. I stated multiple reasons why a vendor would charge more for RAM upgrades than it costs them to buy at wholesale. You don't have to like it but you have to accept it.
And how exactly does that warranty work? I make a claim that the RAM is bad and Crucial will send me a box to ship my 27" iMac to them on their dime? Of course not!
Surely you understand how these companies that sell components with lifetime warranties work.
Looks pretty damn easy on the 27" iMac.
You have no means of getting a guitar pick and rolling it around the seam?
That's a completely different discussion and your opinion on that matter is a valid one. However, this isn't Apple's first push in this direction and yet their Macs seem to be even more and more popular. And let's not forget that notebooks have always been less upgradable than desktops yet are more popular with customers than desktops, and iDevices are considerably more popular than them and yet have nothing the user can service themselves.
The fact is your wishes for a wildly upgradable CE just isn't what drives the market so I'd say that your fears of a declining stock price are unfounded. That is not to say your wishes are unreasonable but your expectations are.
No, you can't get exactly the same thing from other vendors. It's impossible. You can pair components to create a reasonable comparison along many aspects but it's not EXACTLY THE SAME THING.
We seems to see less of it these days as Apple has gotten even farther ahead in the "PC" market but we used to see many claims that this of that WinPC was better but cheaper than some Mac. These comparisons never looked at the display quality or battery life or build quality or any other relevant factor that makes me a returning Mac customer. I guess the focus has changed to say things like "Android phones have had LTE for years now" which is a great example of the poster not understanding the difference between LTE in the iPhone 5 and LTE chips in obsolete Android phones.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macky the Macky
Now I know there are people that would dispute me on this, but I've owned Macs starting with the 128K Mac to a 27" iMac and have not had a single repair issue in all these years... including my laptops from a Duo to a MBP. Every HD has rum flawlessly until the day I unplug the Mac and set it aside for my newer Mac. I've only upgraded the RAM three times in my Macs in the last 28 years. Macs just work. All this crap about repairability must be a Windows PC thing, but it's not an Apple thing.
You have been incredibly lucky. Of the seven Macs our family has owned since we switched at the end of 2007, six have had a fault that required a repair: four MacBook Pros, one Mini, and one Pro tower. Worn out hard drives, bad RAM, fan failure, ALL of the optical drives... nothing particularly remarkable or unusual -- mostly mechanical parts -- but not the kind of invulnerability you've enjoyed.
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Originally Posted by v5v
You have been incredibly lucky. Of the seven Macs our family has owned since we switched at the end of 2007, six have had a fault that required a repair: four MacBook Pros, one Mini, and one Pro tower. Worn out hard drives, bad RAM, fan failure, ALL of the optical drives... nothing particularly remarkable or unusual -- mostly mechanical parts -- but not the kind of invulnerability you've enjoyed.
Sorry to hear that. I don't think he's "lucky". Rather, statistically, you are unlucky. My experience:
iBook G3 - 2001 - still operational, no repairs needed
PowerBook G4 - 2006 - still operational, no repairs needed
MacBook Pro 2008 - still operational, no repairs needed
MacBook Air 2010 - still operational, no repairs needed
On the PC side, I've owned various BYO Windows machines over the 15 years with just two that blew capacitors, two that had RAM chips fail, and one statistically very unlucky Pentium 4-based PC that had a string of failures, including a ball bearing that failed on a cooling fan, bad RAM, bad DVD-drive. But these failures are still in the minority. My brand-named office PCs are similar: just one DELL workstation out of 5 PCs failed (blow capacitor) in the last decade.
Quote:
Originally Posted by v5v
You have been incredibly lucky. Of the seven Macs our family has owned since we switched at the end of 2007, six have had a fault that required a repair: four MacBook Pros, one Mini, and one Pro tower. Worn out hard drives, bad RAM, fan failure, ALL of the optical drives... nothing particularly remarkable or unusual -- mostly mechanical parts -- but not the kind of invulnerability you've enjoyed.
I guess I have been incredibly lucky too. The only problem I ever had was the power supply on my Power Mac 8100 and I have been an Apple customer since 1982. From my perspective YOU are the unlucky one and I am the norm.
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Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
You don't get to decide what that means.
I'm able to decide what's reasonable to me, and I think it's pretty safe to generalize about DOUBLE the going rate being considered unreasonable by most sensible shoppers. If the car rental company charged you TWICE the rate at the pumps to fill up the car when you return it, and glued on the gas cap, would you not feel comfortable calling that "unreasonable?" I would, and I think most people would. If you wouldn't, you are either the most easy-going person on Earth or lacking in value perception.
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Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
If these prices weren't already reasonable, people wouldn't pay them. They're fine.
You think so, huh? The consensus here appears to be that people are NOT paying those prices, which is why they're upset about now being forced to.
Of course, the only way to know for sure is to consult sales stats for BTO RAM and storage upgrades, which I don't think you or I will ever see.
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Originally Posted by Povilas
How many hard drives have failed you? I had this honour two times in 20 years. I even have 512 MB IBM drives still running with no bad sectors.
I have no idea how you have managed that. I have never, ever, kept a machine in use for more than three years without a hard drive replacement. Never. Maybe my use patterns are more drive intensive than yours?
I say I haven't used a desktop PC for personal use in almost 15 years but that's entire accurate. I bought a 1GHz iMac back in the day — the ones with the round base and swivel flatscreen — for my niece and nephew. They've since outgrown and I was able to get it back. No keyboard or mouse connected by SSH was enabled so I was able to find enough Terminal commands to get screen sharing enabled. I now have it on my desk awaiting my 27" iMac to take its place. It's only use now is to connect to a Cisco router in my rack (one that connects to the rest of my Cisco equipment via an 8 port async cable), but I digress.
Anyway, it's still the original configuration with no mods and it's working fine despite about a decade of use. I think your history is very atypical.
PS: I'd like to mod this beautiful machine with Mac mini internals and a new display but I think to do it right would be too much trouble. It would be easy to place a Mac mini inside but I want ports to line up, I want a Time Capsule inside (with the Mac mini connected via GigE), I want the display to be IPS and higher resolution, and hopefully larger but in a casing that matches the exterior.
Macs owned (inc employees) = 50
Current personal macs = 9
Hardware failure/repairs = 2
upgrades (MacPros only) = 2
repairability care factor = bwaahhhaa
Its just not relevant
Quote:
Originally Posted by v5v
I have no idea how you have managed that. I have never, ever, kept a machine in use for more than three years without a hard drive replacement. Never. Maybe my use patterns are more drive intensive than yours?
I wouldn't say that it's typical to replace hard drives every 3 years in a Mac but replacing them is a lot more common than some people would have you believe. My v.2 G5 iMac went through 2 hard drives in 4 years. I gave up after the 3rd one gave up the ghost after 16 months... and it had been replaced by Apple. I think there was a heat issue in that particular version of the G5.
Otherwise I haven't had any other problems with drives... but then again, when it was easy to service them I would buy my own drives, so maybe the quality was better.
The only other fault I've had is with my Intel mid 2007 iMac. Apparently there were a few that went out the door with bad graphics cards. Won't let me upgrade beyond 10.6.2. By the time I found out about the problem it was too late and Apple wanted nothing to do with it. Couldn't sell it, couldn't upgrade the OS... so I've just kept it running... and, of course, it will probably run for the next 15 years.
[I've owned over 20 macs in the last 24 years]
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Originally Posted by SolipsismX
I never said that it was double to install it. I stated multiple reasons why a vendor would charge more for RAM upgrades than it costs them to buy at wholesale. You don't have to like it but you have to accept it.
Fair enough. Point taken.
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Originally Posted by SolipsismX
The fact is your wishes for a wildly upgradable CE just isn't what drives the market so I'd say that your fears of a declining stock price are unfounded. That is not to say your wishes are unreasonable but your expectations are.
Hm, so what you're saying is that not everyone has the same expectations I do? Are you sure? It certainly seems to ME that they SHOULD. I'll have to give that some thought...
(wanders away mumbling and confused...)
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
[...] we used to see many claims that this of that WinPC was better but cheaper than some Mac. These comparisons never looked at the display quality or battery life or build quality or any other relevant factor that makes me a returning Mac customer.
I totally get that, and that's why I paid almost $4000 for my last MBP after AppleCare and tax rather than the roughly $3000-$3500ish it would have cost for the Asus hotrod I was considering as an alternative. My feeling is that they're getting their pound of flesh (454g in Canada) and then some on the purchase price -- no other computer makes comes CLOSE to the margins Apple manages to persuade us to let them enjoy -- and punching us in the nuts over upgrades is just... well, greedy. Again, I'm NOT asking for parts at cost, but even just similar margins to what they make on their machines: 30-35 points over cost, which would make the end user price roughly 25% more than third-party alternatives. THAT would be in the range that calling it a "convenience fee" would reasonable, and I'd be less upset about Apple sealing up the chassis.