Launch of Google Maps for iPhone viewed as a 'mixed blessing' for Apple

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  • Reply 221 of 267
    flaneurflaneur Posts: 4,526member
    gatorguy wrote: »
    . . . Apple's aggressive play to call all the shots, be the unchallenged puppeteer in this new market rather than MS, didn't completely align with Google's interests but left no wiggle room. . . The way I read it in hindsight, as far as Mr. Jobs was concerned it was Apple's destiny to finally be the big dog, the perceived leader of the tech world, rather than the hated Microsoft and Google could either follow on their coattails or move aside. . . Anyway, that's the way I see it. . .

    Here are two statements of yours than seem to be particularly created out of a malevolent fantasy of how Apple motivates themselves. The last statement seems to confess you're making it up.

    Jobs said something about five percent of the mobile phone market. How is that reconciled by you in your scenario of tech-world domination?

    The whole idea of domination, hegemony in business, is alien to Jobs's philosophy. ("Our motives are pure. We just want to make great products for people."—Jobs to Mossburg and Swisher at All Things D)

    You are slandering him and Apple with this "puppeteer" line of made-up crap.
  • Reply 222 of 267

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post



    ... As someone who has built browser engines by yourself ...


     


    So, let me get this straight, KDarling not only claims to have been a touch developer for decades, but that he's also built browser engines by himself? Either that's true in such a trivial sense as to be meaningless, or someone's bullshit meter just redlined.


     


    Why is it that Google/Android supporters feel the need to come here and distort, misrepresent and otherwise do violence to the truth? Yes, some of them are surely trolls -- i.e., mentally disturbed individuals who derive pleasure from working people up -- who will just say anything to start an argument. Some of them are obviously shills -- i.e., paid PR representatives here to shape a message for their employers or clients -- who's job it is to manipulate the facts into a different picture of reality. But, some of them just seem to be misguided souls here on a religious mission to evangelize the heathens, and if lies will save our souls then they are apparently justified. Then again, some of them are just delusional fools who don't have a clue.

  • Reply 223 of 267

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Flaneur View Post





    Here are two statements of yours than seem to be particularly created out of a malevolent fantasy of how Apple motivates themselves. The last statement seems to confess you're making it up.

    Jobs said something about five percent of the mobile phone market. How is that reconciled by you in your scenario of tech-world domination?

    The whole idea of domination, hegemony in business, is alien to Jobs's philosophy. ("Our motives are pure. We just want to make great products for people."—Jobs to Mossburg and Swisher at All Things D)

    You are slandering him and Apple with this "puppeteer" line of made-up crap.


     


    Well, it's a well known line of defense for propagandists to accuse their enemies of their own most egregious sins.*


     


    I think that's all that's going on here, because Google is clearly the company driven by the need to dominate, to control, to, "be the big dog, the perceived leader of the tech world." It's also interesting to note that such feelings of needing to dominate and control are most often driven by feelings of insecurity and inferiority. None of these descriptors apply to Apple or Steve Jobs. But they fit Microsoft (and Bill Gates) and Google (and Eric Schmidt) to a T.


     


    * Edit: There's a twofold reason for employing this technique. First, especially if you are the first to make the accusation, you can claim that any accusation that you did the same as you accused your enemy of doing is just retaliatory and thus not true. Secondly, even if you are both guilty (or more importantly, perceived to be), it means that everyone is doing it, so they are no better than you.


     


    This is why we see all this nonsense about, "Apple is tracking you too," and other accusations where it is attempted to equate Apple's behavior with Google's and thus make Google's behavior not seem out of the norm. 

  • Reply 224 of 267
    flaneurflaneur Posts: 4,526member
    Re [B]anonymouse[/B], the shill quotient (SQ) seems pretty high in this thread.
  • Reply 225 of 267
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,388member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Flaneur View Post





    Here are two statements of yours than seem to be particularly created out of a malevolent fantasy of how Apple motivates themselves. The last statement seems to confess you're making it up.

    Jobs said something about five percent of the mobile phone market. How is that reconciled by you in your scenario of tech-world domination?

    The whole idea of domination, hegemony in business, is alien to Jobs's philosophy. ("Our motives are pure. We just want to make great products for people."—Jobs to Mossburg and Swisher at All Things D)

    You are slandering him and Apple with this "puppeteer" line of made-up crap.


    Didn't Jobs also say he wasn't going to let the same thing happen to their mobile market as happened with Microsoft and the desktop? 

  • Reply 226 of 267
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,388member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Flaneur View Post





    Here are two statements of yours than seem to be particularly created out of a malevolent fantasy of how Apple motivates themselves. The last statement seems to confess you're making it up.


    So when you and I post our opinions (as you did) we should really call it "making it up"? Just want to make sure we both use the same terminology so it doesn't get confusing for you.


     


    Unlike some here I try to clearly state what is opinion (IMO/IMHO) and what is fact.

  • Reply 227 of 267

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post


    Didn't Jobs also say he wasn't going to let the same thing happen to their mobile market as happened with Microsoft and the desktop? 



     


    You mean having their work stolen by another company, yes he did say that. Oh, but you were trying to imply he meant something else, weren't you? 

  • Reply 228 of 267
    Perhaps it is a location issue. Maybe Apple Maps is better in the US than the UK?

    One thing I can tell you is the Maps app in the UK is pathetic. One of the most frustrating and useless things I can remember Apple making.

    I personally dislike Google. But oh am I so glad to get their Maps back on the iPhone. In London Apple Maps was and still is horrific. Major central train stations missing from the database is just one issue.
  • Reply 229 of 267

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post


    So when you and I post our opinions (as you did) we should really call it "making it up"? Just want to make sure we both use the same terminology so it doesn't get confusing for you.


     


    Unlike some here I try to clearly state what is opinion (IMO/IMHO) and what is fact.



     


    Unfortunately for you, GG, the truth is biased. So, when you refer to differing "opinions", often that means that one side is stating the truth, and the other isn't. In this instance, you definitely aren't on the side stating the truth. 

  • Reply 230 of 267
    flaneurflaneur Posts: 4,526member
    gatorguy wrote: »
    So when you and I post our opinions (as you did) we should really call it "making it up"? Just want to make sure we both use the same terminology so it doesn't get confusing for you.

    Unlike some here I try to clearly state what is opinion (IMO/IMHO) and what is fact.

    But we're not talking about opinions, we're talking about history. Things that have happened, what people have said and done, what it means then and now. We're not supposed to be distorting that. In fact we have a responsibility to see, among ourselves in this wretched little corner of tech news and discussion, that the real story prevails.

    So far, since I've been paying attention here, the distorters of the story are just barely losing. On other sites they seem to be winning.

    Edit: I see I was anticipated by anonymouse again, above.
  • Reply 231 of 267
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,388member


    Flaneur , we're not supposed to be posting opinions?? Really?  I must have missed your facts that proved I was distorting history, or anything at all for that matter. Since you didn't offer any, why bother posting anything at all then?


     


    I'll wait for you to post 'em.

  • Reply 232 of 267

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post


    Flaneur , we're not supposed to be posting opinions?? Really?  I must have missed your facts that proved I was distorting history, or anything at all for that matter. Since you didn't offer any, why bother posting anything at all then?


     


    I'll wait for you to post 'em.



     


    I guess we missed your facts proving that history happened in the novel way you described it, or perhaps a better phrase would be, insinuated it happened. GG, you haven't made a substantive post on this site that didn't misrepresent or distort the facts. You've been called out on it with numerous facts to support the argurment that your version of reality is fiction. You've posted links as "supporting evidence" that were shown to have either nothing to do with the topic or not to support your argument. The idea that you can just come here and spew an endless stream of bullshit and that to show you are lying through your teeth we have to spend hours tracking down citations to "prove" you are lying is ridiculous at this point. Given your complete lack of any indication other than lip service that you care at all about facts or truth, I think it's time we said enough is enough and call you what you are.

  • Reply 233 of 267
    flaneurflaneur Posts: 4,526member
    gatorguy wrote: »
    Flaneur , we're not supposed to be posting opinions?? Really?  I must have missed your facts that proved I was distorting history, or anything at all for that matter. Since you didn't offer any, why bother posting anything at all then?

    I'll wait for you to post 'em.

    Opinions are for product reviews, not sorting out why Apple did this or Google did that.

    Jobs's statements, which are facts, do not support your version of history, that Apple was out to totally dominate the mobile space.
  • Reply 234 of 267
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,388member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Flaneur View Post

    Jobs's statements, which are facts, do not support your version of history, that Apple was out to totally dominate the mobile space.


    Which ones? You're surely not clipping the lone quote from his biographer as your only evidence that Apple didn't and still doesn't care about grabbing as much of the mobile market as possible. So show me what you got.


     


    So far I've not seen anything from you or anyone that would make my opinion of what occurred and why an unlikely scenario. Here's your chance. Not just posting your opinion that I'm wrong or distorting things. Not vague accusations about being misleading or "making stuff up", yet without a single example of where I've done so. Bring on the proof since that's all that matters to you.


     


    EDIT: While you're at it, why would you think Apple wanting to take as much of the mobile market as possible is something bad, and thus my opinion of that being an Apple goal must be an insult. That makes no sense at all from a business standpoint.


     


    According to the same Steve Jobs biographer you mentioned earlier, Mr. Jobs was infuriated when Android's market share exceeded Apple's, with Google being "promiscuous" in distributing Android to any company willing to agree with Google's terms.  Does that sound like someone who would be happy with just 5% of smartphone sales because all that was really important was "just making great products"?


     


    BTW, the supposed Jobs comment was that Apple would be happy with just 1% of the market, tho I've not seen that quote for myself. I have my doubts that's what he actually said.

  • Reply 235 of 267

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post


    Which ones? You're surely not clipping the lone quote from his biographer as proof Apple didn't care about grabbing as much of the mobile market as possible. So show me what you got.



     


    Show us what you've got. You've got nothing, just an "opinion" based on your desire to portray Apple in a negative and Google in a positive light, and the tricks of the propagandist at your disposal. Just look at the quote you misrepresented above about what happened on the desktop where you are pretending it's about marketshare and not about theft. Your little game is played out here. You no longer have any value to your employer or clients.

  • Reply 236 of 267

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post


    ... So far I've not seen anything from you or anyone that would make my opinion of what occurred and why an unlikely scenario. Here's your chance. Not just posting your opinion that I'm wrong or distorting things. Not vague accusations about being misleading or "making stuff up", yet without a single example of where I've done so. Bring on the proof since that's all that matters to you.



     


    Imagine if we all played GG's game here. just throw out a bunch of scabrous accusations, claim it's your opinion (but totally true) and insist that your claims stand (even though, out of the other side of your mouth you are hiding behind the "opinion" card) till someone definitively proves it false. Well, ok, it gets played all the time here, but GG is definitely the most thorough player. How many times has he been definitively shown to be lying (I've lost count) yet he still acts as though we have to give hime the benefit of the doubt.

  • Reply 237 of 267
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,388member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Flaneur View Post





    Much interesting new detail and viewpoiint. Can you indicate a source for the $2.5 figure?


    A citation earlier this year put the revenue that Apple got from Google searches last year at just over $1B.


    http://www.businessinsider.com/how-much-google-pays-apple-for-search-on-the-iphone-2012-3

  • Reply 238 of 267
    froodfrood Posts: 771member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by WonkoTheSane View Post





    Please provide a source for validation. This is new to me and I don't buy it.

    As opposed to google being fined for circumventing privacy settings on safari, collecting wifi data, and their public statements.


     


    Assuming you have an iOS 6 iPhone, go to your privacy settings where you would expect to find this.


     


    You won't find it..  I must have made it up...


     


    Okay, now go to the informational screens.  I don't have an iPhone so cant find it without one in my hand but instead of being in 'Privacy Settings' where you would expect it, it is buried two or three layers deep.


    Something like:   About->General->Info


     


    In that screen you will find something that says something along the lines of:


     


    Limited IDFA tracking ->   Off


     


    Just to put it where it is was pretty sneaky on Apples part, the way they phrase it is almost worse.


    It is a somewhat misleading double negative.


     


    By default FULL IDFA is enabled (IDFA is your ID For Advertisers) so by turning limited IDFA -> ON you are actually turning FULL IDFA off even though when you first look at it it looks like Apple has you 'protected' by turning tracking -> off


     


    KDarling has an interesting post above and something I didn't know.  It's  actually a little sinister.  Turning the feature on (which is really off) still gives advertisers access to your unique ID, it just states that your preference is that they don't use it.  Nice one.


     


    To clarify:  I don't think it is that big a deal.  I don't think either Apple nor Google is doing anything malicious with it or 'spying' on you.  They simply have access to that information and *could* go evil on you if they chose too.  Google states their practice is to delete info after a certain time perioed (18 months?).  Apple doesn't state they have any policy one way or the other.

  • Reply 239 of 267
    kdarlingkdarling Posts: 1,640member


    Quote:


    Originally Posted by Frood View Post


     


    KDarling has an interesting post above and something I didn't know.  It's  actually a little sinister.  Turning the feature on (which is really off) still gives advertisers access to your unique ID, it just states that your preference is that they don't use it.  Nice one.



     


    To be exact, Apple's Advertising Identifier API gives the following instructions to developers about the advertisingTrackingEnabled flag that the Settings feature changes:

     


    "Check the value of this [flag] before performing any advertising tracking. If the value is NO, use the advertising identifier only for the following purposes: frequency capping, conversion events, estimating the number of unique users, security and fraud detection, and debugging."


     


    Quote:


    To clarify:  I don't think it is that big a deal.  I don't think either Apple nor Google is doing anything malicious with it or 'spying' on you.  They simply have access to that information and *could* go evil on you if they chose too.  Google states their practice is to delete info after a certain time perioed (18 months?).  Apple doesn't state they have any policy one way or the other.




     


    It is in both Apple's and Google's interests to keep our info as safe and anonymous as possible.  It's how they make money off ad placement, after all.  In return, we get free apps and ads that target our interests.


     


    The only real downside... and it might be a big one for some people... is that they both will give the government access to that info if formally requested.  Of course, the same goes for cell phone records from a phone company.  Or financial records from a bank.  Or airlines.  And so forth.

  • Reply 240 of 267

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ankleskater View Post




    True. But to be fair, there are also those who defend Apple when there is no reason or need. Some are fanatical about Google. Others (a larger population) are fanatical about Apple. The truth, as usual, is somewhere in between.



     


    The truth is not usually somewhere in between. The truth is not fair and balanced.

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