What part of "facts" do you not understand? An opinion that is repeated 10,000 times is still an opinion.
Apple Maps has x errors.
Google Maps has y errors.
Let me know when you have evidence that x is significantly greater than y. So far, no one has provided any.
I don't know. I am simply pointing out that no one has yet proven the oft-repeated claim that Apple Maps is inferior.
The general "map" part of the app is certainly comparable in my own experience within the UK, both Apps get me from A to B with very few errors. But Apple Maps is next to useless when it comes to points of interest. Honestly, I know the USA is better off because Apple always prioritises their American customers over the rest of the world but people have come to want and expect a decent POI database in a maps Apple. Apple's iPhone built that expectation in the first place.
I'll be honest, as I've used both Apple Maps and Google Maps now.
Apple Maps has performed flawlessly in my area. Siri has been brilliant. For example, when I ask Siri "Find the nearest Chick Fil A" she returns a list, beginning with the nearest, and I route from there. Easy peasy.
So last weekend, my daughter wanted Chick Fil A (her fav, obviously) and I was in an area I don't know very well. Thought I'd give Google Maps a go. Typed in Chick Fil A, and it promptly tried to route me to a location 30 miles away. Now in this area, you can't throw a rock without hitting a Chick Fil A, and we were on Interstate 75. So I asked Siri and there was a location 3 miles away.
I'm not saying that in every situation Apple will be better. I'll keep both to further compare, but Apple Maps is great for me.
And that's exactly the point. THERE IS NO EVIDENCE that Apple Maps is inferior. None. Nada. Zip.
There are some anecdotes (like the person complaining above about Apple listing some teriyaki restaurants), but there are also errors with Google Maps. So all the whining about how bad Apple Maps is has no basis in fact. It's just more of the common Internet phenomenon - the loud people get heard. Just like all the other 'gates' that people have been throwing out about Apple. Most of them were either completely fabricated or blown so far out of proportion as to lose any sense of reality.
In the end, both Apple Maps and Google Maps do the job most of the time.
How do we get evidence if the examples that are given are only useful within the scope of that single side-by-side comparison?
What about creating a thread on AI and devising a test to see where the faults reside? Some parameters could be to choose a country, a POI or address in a big city and rural area. When doing an address split between random named and numbered streets, and have some with more complex conventions like 'NW' in the name.
I'd say 20 tests across each service would be a good start.
1 country
4 POIs in different cities.
4 POIs in different rural areas.
4 simple numbered street addresses.
4 simple named street addresses.
4 complex street addresses.
Seems simple enough, but how do choose the addresses randomly around a country? I would use a mapping app but that defeats the purpose. I guess I could just find something and see if the other has it, but how do I know either is accurate? POIs are likely easier to conjure. I guess we could use family and friends in our address books but then we can't do screenshots or detail any shortcomings for reasons of privacy so we'll have to relay on the honesty of the posters who might want to join in.
How to get evidence if the examples that are given are only useful within the scope of that one side-by-side comparison?
What about creating a thread on AI and devising a test to see where the faults reside? Some parameters could be to choose a country, a POI or address in a big city and rural area. When doing an address split between random named and numbered streets, and have some with more complex conventions like 'NW' in the name.
I'd say 20 tests across each service would be a good start.
1 country
4 POIs in different cities.
4 POIs in different rural areas.
4 simple numbered street addresses.
4 simple named street addresses.
4 complex street addresses.
Seems simple enough, but how do choose the addresses randomly around a country? I would use a mapping app but that defeats the purpose. I guess I could just find something and see if the other has it, but how do I know either is accurate? POIs are likely easier to conjure. I guess we could use family and friends in our address books but then we can't do screenshots or detail any shortcomings for reasons of privacy so we'll have to relay on the honesty of the posters who might want to join in.
Confirming accuracy of the data is one issue. Changes between versions of maps is another. Variations in quality between regions of the same country are another. Even the time of year makes a difference.
I've seen comparison attempts by GIS professional's that fail to prove one company's mapping is always better than someone else's. Throw in varied and changing collections of POI data sourced from multiple providers rather than the map provider itself and I see no way to get reliable results that prove anything beyond a specific case-use for a particular mapset for a particular time period.
I'll be honest, as I've used both Apple Maps and Google Maps now.
Apple Maps has performed flawlessly in my area. Siri has been brilliant. For example, when I ask Siri "Find the nearest Chick Fil A" she returns a list, beginning with the nearest, and I route from there. Easy peasy.
So last weekend, my daughter wanted Chick Fil A (her fav, obviously) and I was in an area I don't know very well. Thought I'd give Google Maps a go. Typed in Chick Fil A, and it promptly tried to route me to a location 30 miles away. Now in this area, you can't throw a rock without hitting a Chick Fil A, and we were on Interstate 75. So I asked Siri and there was a location 3 miles away.
I'm not saying that in every situation Apple will be better. I'll keep both to further compare, but Apple Maps is great for me.
I'll have to try asking Siri to "Find the nearest Chik Fil A" instead of "find the nearest Jesus chicken that's never open on Sunday". Maybe that's what I'm doing wrong.
Well of course you could.... a lot of things are easy to say
Unless the truth matters to you at all. Some posters resort to personal and dishonest smear tactics when they're coming in on the short end of a disagreement. You wouldn't be one of those would you?
****STOCK HOLDERS PLEASE READ. I have been a close Apple watcher and shareholder for many years. I hope that the readers on AI who are stock holders are not getting spooked and selling their shares. Apple stock is down because of bad economies and analyst-generated rumours. Apple is cunning and swift. They know what is happening in the market, and they know what their competition is doing. They just released a brand new product (the iPad Mini), and while it's not the revolution that the iPhone was, it's a huge seller in many more markets than the iPhone was when it was released. The iPad Mini is going to go on to sell in ridiculous volumes because it is far superior to the competition. At the end of the day remember it's not really a market share battle for Apple. People are saying that apple hasn't released a revolutionary product in a very long time. This just isn't true, and isn't something to worry about. Steve passed about just over a year ago. Apple had plenty of work to do. They had to minimize the worry in stockholders while implementing strategies to keep the company's spirit intact. Now that Tim has made executive changes, we are going to see many great things in the coming months and years. Keep in mind that Apple keeps everything they do under wraps. iPhone parts leak, but software, for the most part, does not. Apple has big things up its sleeve, and plenty of cash to make those things happen. We will see an Apple television. Remember this is only the beginning, just like the iPhone. It came out with minimal apps. Developers will do things with the Apple television that we have never even dreamed of before. There will also be many new software programs and updates in the future that will set Apple apart from its competitors. Apple server based services are just now starting to hit their stride. We haven't even begun to see what is possible with cloud computing. To wrap things up, Apple's customer base is growing at a faster pace than ever before, even though it may seem that their market share is dropping. This is just a result of the market they created, becoming the new standard. It is not eating away at their customer base, and definitely not at their profits. So my advice to stock holders is stay calm and carry on. Apple will recover to 700 a share. I believe they will even surpass that price once the hysteria from analysts blows over. Merry Christmas & happy holidays to AI & its readers!
No, but Apple Maps does have far inferior points of interest data, especially outside of the USA.
That may or may not be true (in China, the opposite is apparently true), but the entire 'mapsgates' issue is not about points of interest. It's about the oft-repeated (but never proven) claim that Apple's directions and locations are far worse than Google's.
There's no evidence Apple maps is inferior yet Tim Cook sends out an apology letter encouraging iOS customers to use competitor products. And in an interview with Brian Williams said "we screwed up" regarding maps. That's all the evidence I need.
Well, yes, if you completely misrepresent what Cook said, you can come to any conclusion you wish. But if you actually read what he said, it tells a different story.
1. Cook said that Apple's customers expected the best possible experience.
2. Cook admits that Maps did not meet the customers' expectations (which is, in reality, impossible if they expect the best possible experience).
3. Cook said that if you're not happy with Maps, there are alternatives.
In the Williams interview, Cook said:
"It [Maps] didn't meet our customers' expectation, and our expectations of ourselves are even higher than our customers'. However, I can tell you, so we screwed up."
In both the letter and the interview, there's absolutely nothing in Cook's comments that says that Maps was bad or defective. He simply stated that it failed to meet the customers' expectations of superlative features and performance. So, in essence, "we were not as much better as the competition as we usually are." Nothing in any of his statements supports your claim that it was a disaster.
I'll have to try asking Siri to "Find the nearest Chik Fil A" instead of "find the nearest Jesus chicken that's never open on Sunday". Maybe that's what I'm doing wrong.
LOL!
Hey, I don't support their policies. My kid just likes their chicken nuggets and they're (marginally) healthier than McDonald's. When you have a picky 4 year old, you do what you gotta do.
Jesus chicken. That did make me laugh. But I'm an Agnostic heathen, so it's expected.
****STOCK HOLDERS PLEASE READ. I have been a close Apple watcher and shareholder for many years. I hope that the readers on AI who are stock holders are not getting spooked and selling their shares. Apple stock is down because of bad economies and analyst-generated rumours.
etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.
So my advice to stock holders is stay calm and carry on. Apple will recover to 700 a share. I believe they will even surpass that price once the hysteria from analysts blows over. Merry Christmas & happy holidays to AI & its readers!
Har! This reminded me of one of those commercial breaks where a network is responding to allegations or ongoing litigation... the rolling text with the voice over reading the text.
Hey, I don't support their policies. My kid just likes their chicken nuggets and they're (marginally) healthier than McDonald's. When you have a picky 4 year old, you do what you gotta do.
Jesus chicken. That did make me laugh. But I'm an Agnostic heathen, so it's expected.
If I chose what to buy based from company only after making sure I agreed with every religious view held by their employees I'd never buy anything. I think it's a foolish position for their CEO to take (and one that I think won't last for more than a couple years) but he has the right to make it and I am glad I live in a country where free speech is allowed, no matter how myopic and foolish I might think it is. Now if he was refusing to serve gays or going against the law when it comes to honouring same sex unions on their insurance that would be different, but he's not. We all have a right to our dumb opinions and everyone else has the right to comment on those dumb opinions.
I don't live anywhere near a Chik-fil-A but when I know I'll be driving by one I do make a point to hit the drive thru.
I've been using both Apple and Google Maps and honestly can't say that one is more accurate than the other in my experience. Google definitely seems to have the advantage when it comes to POI data, but for directions I find them to be comparable. I much prefer the Apple Maps UI, however. I've never been a fan of Google's UI work. I'm all for minimalism, but I like a healthy dose of style with my minimalism and Google, like Microsoft, has no style.
I'm tired of all the recent Apple FUD. Apple Maps isn't perfect, but it's far from the disaster that the press and pundits would have you believe it to be. And the recent "Android is winning the smartphone war" BS is ridiculous. Marketshare is only one metric. Personally I'm interested in who is the most profitable, especially as an investor. When you consider the beating Apple's stock has taken recently, it should make everyone (Apple fan or not) leery of investing in the stock market in general. There's far too much manipulation happening.
They both have flaws. Google maps tells me there is a sprint store in a residential neighborhood. I have used apple maps and love it but have seen a few flaws in it as well that have been fixed already.
They both have flaws. Google maps tells me there is a sprint store in a residential neighborhood. I have used apple maps and love it but have seen a few flaws in it as well that have been fixed already.
The headline is pure click bait. Of course switching to Tom Tom Maps would "reduce reliance on google" but that is like announcing 6 - 3 was found to be 3.
Don't worry. I'll write to AppleInsider and every other publication and inform them not to write headlines that get people to read them. /sarcasm
Now, it is well-known that Apple is trying to reduce its reliance on Google as much as possible, so the headline is appropriate, because that's what the story is about, no?
so what errors are you finding in your area of travel for either of them. How has the POI data compared between the two in your own search requests?
His point isn't that Google Maps is worse, it's that there is no empirical evidence that shows that one is, overall, better or worse than the other. He is quite right, it's all been very circumstantial and anecdotal. If you only took the rural areas of China Apple Maps will look like it's worlds better than Google Maps, according to all the tests I've seen.
That said, I think his position isn't a good one because the scope is too excessive and too difficult to accurately test that we must allow for a certain level of belief to be had. I feel the same way about religion. I will never say that anyone's religion is wrong (because people are entitled their beliefs) but the fact that it can't be tested means I also can't say their beliefs are inherently wrong (although some seem really stupid).
Maps certainly aren't as untestable as religion but in regards to technology it's pretty damn close. You need to have accurate points to compare against and that simply isn't going to happen as I stated previously. The best we have are a collective of people that will state whether a point on a map is accurate or not... and that info can be collective wrong or simply change.
Then we have to have enough points measured and then the value or the points weighted to make a final tally or which is better or worse. Does Street View count for any value for Google? For me it does, but for many on AI it clearly doesn't. Does a pin drop on a large POI that is placed in the center instead of at the entrance, like a park, count as accurate or inaccurate? If we say that it's inaccurate what if it's not on the entrance what if one has the pin drop in the center and the other has it on a location of the mailing address or the mail box that is only slightly off from the entrance? Are those weighted equally? Am I crazy for even asking these questions because I feel like I'm the only one who is doing it?
so what errors are you finding in your area of travel for either of them. How has the POI data compared between the two in your own search requests?
I'm not the one making a claim about the accuracy. I'm simply pointing out that no one has provided evidence that Apple is worse. Since you (and others) are claiming that Apple Maps is a dismal failure, you have the burden of proof.
So where's the evidence to support the claim you keep making?
His point isn't that Google Maps is worse, it's that there is no empirical evidence that shows that one is, overall, better or worse than the other. He is quite right, it's all been very circumstantial and anecdotal. If you only took the rural areas of China Apple Maps will look like it's worlds better than Google Maps, according to all the tests I've seen.
That said, I think his position isn't a good one because the scope is too excessive and too difficult to accurately test that we must allow for a certain level of belief to be had.
I disagree. There have been a few people who have tried this in isolated areas and they invariably agree with my point. Each time that an effort has been made to sample a large number of sites in some region (I'm aware of Canada and San Francisco examples), the results are that the two systems have comparable accuracy. Now, those cases don't prove that Apple is as good, but they show that it's possible to do an area by choosing random locations and verifying the accuracy.
Once again, I don't need to prove that Apple is better - because I never made that claim. The people who keep claiming that Apple is worse have the burden of proof. That is especially true given two facts:
1. There have been plenty of 'gate' stories about Apple that turned out to be false or grossly distorted. It is clear that when something negative appears about Apple, it spreads very quickly - whether it's true or not.
2. The known fact that Google has paid shills frequenting forums to spread FUD against Apple.
Given those two facts, "there's lots of noise, so it must be true" isn't a reasonable argument.
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
What part of "facts" do you not understand? An opinion that is repeated 10,000 times is still an opinion.
Apple Maps has x errors.
Google Maps has y errors.
Let me know when you have evidence that x is significantly greater than y. So far, no one has provided any.
I don't know. I am simply pointing out that no one has yet proven the oft-repeated claim that Apple Maps is inferior.
The general "map" part of the app is certainly comparable in my own experience within the UK, both Apps get me from A to B with very few errors. But Apple Maps is next to useless when it comes to points of interest. Honestly, I know the USA is better off because Apple always prioritises their American customers over the rest of the world but people have come to want and expect a decent POI database in a maps Apple. Apple's iPhone built that expectation in the first place.
I'll be honest, as I've used both Apple Maps and Google Maps now.
Apple Maps has performed flawlessly in my area. Siri has been brilliant. For example, when I ask Siri "Find the nearest Chick Fil A" she returns a list, beginning with the nearest, and I route from there. Easy peasy.
So last weekend, my daughter wanted Chick Fil A (her fav, obviously) and I was in an area I don't know very well. Thought I'd give Google Maps a go. Typed in Chick Fil A, and it promptly tried to route me to a location 30 miles away. Now in this area, you can't throw a rock without hitting a Chick Fil A, and we were on Interstate 75. So I asked Siri and there was a location 3 miles away.
I'm not saying that in every situation Apple will be better. I'll keep both to further compare, but Apple Maps is great for me.
How do we get evidence if the examples that are given are only useful within the scope of that single side-by-side comparison?
What about creating a thread on AI and devising a test to see where the faults reside? Some parameters could be to choose a country, a POI or address in a big city and rural area. When doing an address split between random named and numbered streets, and have some with more complex conventions like 'NW' in the name.
I'd say 20 tests across each service would be a good start.
Seems simple enough, but how do choose the addresses randomly around a country? I would use a mapping app but that defeats the purpose. I guess I could just find something and see if the other has it, but how do I know either is accurate? POIs are likely easier to conjure. I guess we could use family and friends in our address books but then we can't do screenshots or detail any shortcomings for reasons of privacy so we'll have to relay on the honesty of the posters who might want to join in.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
How to get evidence if the examples that are given are only useful within the scope of that one side-by-side comparison?
What about creating a thread on AI and devising a test to see where the faults reside? Some parameters could be to choose a country, a POI or address in a big city and rural area. When doing an address split between random named and numbered streets, and have some with more complex conventions like 'NW' in the name.
I'd say 20 tests across each service would be a good start.
Seems simple enough, but how do choose the addresses randomly around a country? I would use a mapping app but that defeats the purpose. I guess I could just find something and see if the other has it, but how do I know either is accurate? POIs are likely easier to conjure. I guess we could use family and friends in our address books but then we can't do screenshots or detail any shortcomings for reasons of privacy so we'll have to relay on the honesty of the posters who might want to join in.1 country
4 POIs in different cities.
4 POIs in different rural areas.
4 simple numbered street addresses.
4 simple named street addresses.
4 complex street addresses.
Confirming accuracy of the data is one issue. Changes between versions of maps is another. Variations in quality between regions of the same country are another. Even the time of year makes a difference.
I've seen comparison attempts by GIS professional's that fail to prove one company's mapping is always better than someone else's. Throw in varied and changing collections of POI data sourced from multiple providers rather than the map provider itself and I see no way to get reliable results that prove anything beyond a specific case-use for a particular mapset for a particular time period.
But you could.
I'll have to try asking Siri to "Find the nearest Chik Fil A" instead of "find the nearest Jesus chicken that's never open on Sunday". Maybe that's what I'm doing wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flaneur
But you could.
Well of course you could.... a lot of things are easy to say
Unless the truth matters to you at all. Some posters resort to personal and dishonest smear tactics when they're coming in on the short end of a disagreement. You wouldn't be one of those would you?
That may or may not be true (in China, the opposite is apparently true), but the entire 'mapsgates' issue is not about points of interest. It's about the oft-repeated (but never proven) claim that Apple's directions and locations are far worse than Google's.
Well, yes, if you completely misrepresent what Cook said, you can come to any conclusion you wish. But if you actually read what he said, it tells a different story.
1. Cook said that Apple's customers expected the best possible experience.
2. Cook admits that Maps did not meet the customers' expectations (which is, in reality, impossible if they expect the best possible experience).
3. Cook said that if you're not happy with Maps, there are alternatives.
In the Williams interview, Cook said:
"It [Maps] didn't meet our customers' expectation, and our expectations of ourselves are even higher than our customers'. However, I can tell you, so we screwed up."
In both the letter and the interview, there's absolutely nothing in Cook's comments that says that Maps was bad or defective. He simply stated that it failed to meet the customers' expectations of superlative features and performance. So, in essence, "we were not as much better as the competition as we usually are." Nothing in any of his statements supports your claim that it was a disaster.
Of course. You see, unlike you, I talk about things I know rather than simply repeating the same FUD I read.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton
I'll have to try asking Siri to "Find the nearest Chik Fil A" instead of "find the nearest Jesus chicken that's never open on Sunday". Maybe that's what I'm doing wrong.
LOL!
Hey, I don't support their policies. My kid just likes their chicken nuggets and they're (marginally) healthier than McDonald's. When you have a picky 4 year old, you do what you gotta do.
Jesus chicken. That did make me laugh. But I'm an Agnostic heathen, so it's expected.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macsavy
****STOCK HOLDERS PLEASE READ. I have been a close Apple watcher and shareholder for many years. I hope that the readers on AI who are stock holders are not getting spooked and selling their shares. Apple stock is down because of bad economies and analyst-generated rumours.
etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.
So my advice to stock holders is stay calm and carry on. Apple will recover to 700 a share. I believe they will even surpass that price once the hysteria from analysts blows over. Merry Christmas & happy holidays to AI & its readers!
Har! This reminded me of one of those commercial breaks where a network is responding to allegations or ongoing litigation... the rolling text with the voice over reading the text.
If I chose what to buy based from company only after making sure I agreed with every religious view held by their employees I'd never buy anything. I think it's a foolish position for their CEO to take (and one that I think won't last for more than a couple years) but he has the right to make it and I am glad I live in a country where free speech is allowed, no matter how myopic and foolish I might think it is. Now if he was refusing to serve gays or going against the law when it comes to honouring same sex unions on their insurance that would be different, but he's not. We all have a right to our dumb opinions and everyone else has the right to comment on those dumb opinions.
I don't live anywhere near a Chik-fil-A but when I know I'll be driving by one I do make a point to hit the drive thru.
I'm tired of all the recent Apple FUD. Apple Maps isn't perfect, but it's far from the disaster that the press and pundits would have you believe it to be. And the recent "Android is winning the smartphone war" BS is ridiculous. Marketshare is only one metric. Personally I'm interested in who is the most profitable, especially as an investor. When you consider the beating Apple's stock has taken recently, it should make everyone (Apple fan or not) leery of investing in the stock market in general. There's far too much manipulation happening.
deleted
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton
The headline is pure click bait. Of course switching to Tom Tom Maps would "reduce reliance on google" but that is like announcing 6 - 3 was found to be 3.
Don't worry. I'll write to AppleInsider and every other publication and inform them not to write headlines that get people to read them. /sarcasm
Now, it is well-known that Apple is trying to reduce its reliance on Google as much as possible, so the headline is appropriate, because that's what the story is about, no?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
Huh. . .
so what errors are you finding in your area of travel for either of them. How has the POI data compared between the two in your own search requests?
His point isn't that Google Maps is worse, it's that there is no empirical evidence that shows that one is, overall, better or worse than the other. He is quite right, it's all been very circumstantial and anecdotal. If you only took the rural areas of China Apple Maps will look like it's worlds better than Google Maps, according to all the tests I've seen.
That said, I think his position isn't a good one because the scope is too excessive and too difficult to accurately test that we must allow for a certain level of belief to be had. I feel the same way about religion. I will never say that anyone's religion is wrong (because people are entitled their beliefs) but the fact that it can't be tested means I also can't say their beliefs are inherently wrong (although some seem really stupid).
Maps certainly aren't as untestable as religion but in regards to technology it's pretty damn close. You need to have accurate points to compare against and that simply isn't going to happen as I stated previously. The best we have are a collective of people that will state whether a point on a map is accurate or not... and that info can be collective wrong or simply change.
Then we have to have enough points measured and then the value or the points weighted to make a final tally or which is better or worse. Does Street View count for any value for Google? For me it does, but for many on AI it clearly doesn't. Does a pin drop on a large POI that is placed in the center instead of at the entrance, like a park, count as accurate or inaccurate? If we say that it's inaccurate what if it's not on the entrance what if one has the pin drop in the center and the other has it on a location of the mailing address or the mail box that is only slightly off from the entrance? Are those weighted equally? Am I crazy for even asking these questions because I feel like I'm the only one who is doing it?
I'm not the one making a claim about the accuracy. I'm simply pointing out that no one has provided evidence that Apple is worse. Since you (and others) are claiming that Apple Maps is a dismal failure, you have the burden of proof.
So where's the evidence to support the claim you keep making?
I disagree. There have been a few people who have tried this in isolated areas and they invariably agree with my point. Each time that an effort has been made to sample a large number of sites in some region (I'm aware of Canada and San Francisco examples), the results are that the two systems have comparable accuracy. Now, those cases don't prove that Apple is as good, but they show that it's possible to do an area by choosing random locations and verifying the accuracy.
Once again, I don't need to prove that Apple is better - because I never made that claim. The people who keep claiming that Apple is worse have the burden of proof. That is especially true given two facts:
1. There have been plenty of 'gate' stories about Apple that turned out to be false or grossly distorted. It is clear that when something negative appears about Apple, it spreads very quickly - whether it's true or not.
2. The known fact that Google has paid shills frequenting forums to spread FUD against Apple.
Given those two facts, "there's lots of noise, so it must be true" isn't a reasonable argument.