Strange remark; look at Final Cut Pro X: announced on April 12, 2011 and released on June 21. FCP EOL-ed right there.
Excellent point. Pros just work, many times on 'old' hardware. Many don't know what processor speed they have, how much RAM and all that. They just look at InDesign or whatever and say, hmm, maybe it's time to get a new Mac because it's slower than it used to be.
MMPP (My MP prediction):
6 socket 4 and 6-core XEON CPU
16 RAM slots, maxing out at 256GB
ODD (for mass DVD production you can't hand over a DVD anyway; that has to be on tape)
USB2/3 (no v3 needed but for future proofing it would make sense. CPU has to support it though)
2xFW800 on the back (why dump it if they don't have to pay a software license)
2xEth, 'many' TB, analogue/optical in/out, WiFi, BT and all that
1 or 2 PSU
Similar chassis to current one, 19" high so can be put on shelve for racks,: stack all CPU's vertically (landscape orientation, at the front) and put all (6?) PCI cards behind that. Above that 1 or 2 PSU. So:
CPU PSU
CPU PSU
CPU PCI CPU PCI CPU PCI CPU PCI
????????????????PCI
????????????????PCI
Craply done layout but you'll 'get the picture' I trust: 6xCPU stacked at front, 6x PCI tacked at back + 2xPSU op top of that. Put air holes at the bottom with a filter, fans on top, sucking cold air and blow out the hot air at the top/back. Not regular fans, but the ones posted in yesterdays thread.
The only thing I disagree on is the ODD. Even if you need to turn over a tape for mass production, prototyping is likely to involve a DVD for your client. I don't see it being dropped any time soon.
And the number of CPUs will depend on what Intel has available.
Apple made a strategic decision to market the MacPro for only the very high end markets which typically require multiple CPUs. Because of that decision - and Intel's failure to release newer Xeon products - Apple is limited in what they can offer.
Must be a déjà vu for them, after IBM couldn't deliver a 3GHz G5.
Apple noted in the announcement that authorized resellers would be able to purchase the Mac Pro until Feb. 18, but did not previously specify an exact date on which general consumer orders would be discontinued.
They have a low turnaround time so it's expected that they'd stop close to Feb 18th.
It depends what you consider to be soon. I don't know how much warning they had about this new safety ammendment but it comes into effect on March 1st so they can't continue selling machines that aren't compliant. If they didn't have enough warning, the update will have to be within their already planned update cycle.
I believe that is because Apple is waiting for Intel to release their Haswell-DT CPU with the LGA1150 socket, which also would allow for USB3. ETA is June 2.
Haswell-DT is their desktop line for the likes of the iMac. The MP would use either Sandy Bridge EP (released last March) or Ivy Bridge EP (due Q3 2013 - July or thereabouts).
They use Sandy Bridge Xeons, which came out last March. HP's machines were shipping around May. Dell and Boxx use them too. Apple skipped them so if they went with Sandy Bridge Xeons, they'd be using at least 9 month old CPUs.
But they can't go Ivy Bridge Xeon until Intel releases the EP versions in July.
Intel might let Apple launch them in June at WWDC because the volumes are so low.
Haswell-DT is their desktop line for the likes of the iMac. The MP would use either Sandy Bridge EP (released last March) or Ivy Bridge EP (due Q3 2013 - July or thereabouts).
Using last March CPU would seem a step back, so I wager the one from Q3. Is it true that USB3 requires this specific CPU? (sorry for asking again, I thought you replied on this a while back, but iForgot)
But they can't go Ivy Bridge Xeon until Intel releases the EP versions in July.
Intel might let Apple launch them in June at WWDC because the volumes are so low.
But Intel sometimes releases CPU's earlier for Apple, either due to low volume or to give them a heads up on the competition.
Will, in your opinion, a 4 or 6 socket design be feasible? Does that 1150 allow for that?
Must be a déjà vu for them, after IBM couldn't deliver a 3GHz G5.
That's very true. CPUs are not something I know anything about so this may be total BS to even think ... but I wonder if Apple will ever go it alone on high end CPUs to avoid this even if they have them made for them (not by Samsung of course lol).
I haven't looked inside a Mac Pro in a long time, but are the "unprotected" fan blades really so dangerous? And even though current Mac laptops don't really enable users to change anything in the machine and therefore shouldn't be opened by mere mortals, are those fan blades non-protected as well?
What exactly is this new rule?
And is a new MacPro going to be anything but updated processors and slots for flash drives as well as fusion drives and an updated graphics board in maybe (but not necessarily) a new case? What is it exactly that people are expecting? I think people are setting themselves up for disappointment.
However, this new European rule may be doing us a favor as it might force Apple to release a new MacPro sooner rather than later.
I don't think Apple hates pros, it's just that as the company has become so huge and with Wall Street looking so closely, it simply doesn't make financial sense for them to concentrate on machines that don't sell very well.
However, there is still a reason to have such machines and that is that the top of the line drives the perception of the rest of the line from a marketing standpoint. Whether it's car companies like BMW or camera companies like Nikon and Canon, or Sony with their new 84" 4K $25,000 TV, they all have very expensive top-of-the-line models that don't actually sell in huge numbers, but drive the perception of quality. Also, if "pros" start using Windows machines for "pro" applications, they might start using Windows machines as their personal machines as well. That could be the beginning of a slippery slope. Apple used to released computers that they could claim were the most powerful. I remember the ad campaign where Apple claimed their computer was so powerful that they weren't permitted to export it to many countries. Even though most users don't actually need more power, they need to get back to that place and restore the perception that Apple is the best computer, not just that it has the best ecosystem.
Must be a déjà vu for them, after IBM couldn't deliver a 3GHz G5.
That's very true. CPUs are not something I know anything about so this may be total BS to even think ... but I wonder if Apple will ever go it alone on high end CPUs to avoid this even if they have them made for them (not by Samsung of course lol).
Interesting point you raise here. I think PA Semi did indeed design desktop CPU's. DED has an article on that here.
I haven't looked inside a Mac Pro in a long time, but are the "unprotected" fan blades really so dangerous? And even though current Mac laptops don't really enable users to change anything in the machine and therefore shouldn't be opened by mere mortals, are those fan blades non-protected as well?
What exactly is this new rule?
And is a new MacPro going to be anything but updated processors and slots for flash drives as well as fusion drives and an updated graphics board in maybe (but not necessarily) a new case? What is it exactly that people are expecting? I think people are setting themselves up for disappointment.
However, this new European rule may be doing us a favor as it might force Apple to release a new MacPro sooner rather than later.
I don't think Apple hates pros, it's just that as the company has become so huge and with Wall Street looking so closely, it simply doesn't make financial sense for them to concentrate on machines that don't sell very well.
However, there is still a reason to have such machines and that is that the top of the line drives the perception of the rest of the line from a marketing standpoint. Whether it's car companies like BMW or camera companies like Nikon and Canon, or Sony with their new 84" 4K $25,000 TV, they all have very expensive top-of-the-line models that don't actually sell in huge numbers, but drive the perception of quality. Also, if "pros" start using Windows machines for "pro" applications, they might start using Windows machines as their personal machines as well. That could be the beginning of a slippery slope. Apple used to released computers that they could claim were the most powerful. I remember the ad campaign where Apple claimed their computer was so powerful that they weren't permitted to export it to many countries. Even though most users don't actually need more power, they need to get back to that place and restore the perception that Apple is the best computer, not just that it has the best ecosystem.
Exactly right. Plus, not only does a high end product help with perception etc. it is also where the technology often drips down from to lower end products. F1 racing cars being a great example of this.
Using last March CPU would seem a step back, so I wager the one from Q3. Is it true that USB3 requires this specific CPU?
It's not the CPU itself but the available chipset (motherboard components) that's compatible with the CPU. If Intel's chipset doesn't support USB 3, Apple has to use a 3rd party controller (which is an option). Right now, Intel doesn't have a Xeon-compatible chipset that supports USB 3 or more than 2 SATA 6G or PCIe 3.
Intel does have a new chipset coming - the Intel C610 chipset (Wellsburg), which supports USB3, 10 SATA 6G ports, still PCIe 2:
But Intel sometimes releases CPU's earlier for Apple, either due to low volume or to give them a heads up on the competition.
Will, in your opinion, a 4 or 6 socket design be feasible? Does that 1150 allow for that?
4 socket would be feasible, Intel demos it with the old Nehalem processors here:
but I doubt Apple would go above two. The problem when speccing out computers is that it's inevitable that buyers will create the best machine they can imagine for the lowest price.
The mindset in designing a Mac Pro is usually that it should have more of everything but that would make it less appealling to a lot of people, drive the price up, add complexity to Apple's supply chain and would kill it off even faster because the sales volume would go down again.
The idea that Apple will ever set out to build a machine that won't leave you wanting more is not realistic. If you sell someone a machine with 64 physical cores when the average is about 6-12, that machine will last a very long time so it has to be priced under the assumption that the customer won't be back soon. That's not a good business model.
A healthier way to do it is to scale it down so that it's only a small amount faster than the old one but it has a more appealling form factor and a lower price. This means that people will buy more for networked computation and for individual workstation use, it creates more growth as the highest machines would be more affordable.
I've yet to hear a legitimate reason why a company with more than $100 billion in cash can't spare the resources necessary to have simply updated the logic board of the existing mac pro to current generations, keeping the same case as they have for some time. The "oh just wait for 2013" crowd seems to forget that the 2010 Mac Pro which is the current Mac Pro was only slightly speed bumped last year because Intel stopped making some of the processors Apple was using. And how about all those out-dated graphics card options? So please, tell me again how much Apple cares about the Mac Pro? People would have been happy with a simple upgrade and a thunderbolt port. I certainly don't care about a case redesign. I only care about whats inside.
"Something great" "later" in 2013 is nothing but vaporware until it is released. I was all ready to spend several thousand dollars on a new Mac Pro to replace my 2008 one, but I absolutely refuse to upgrade to the old-technology overpriced machine Apple currently offers. Again, a company with basically unlimited resources has no excuse to not have kept this machine up to date in my opinion.
not only does a high end product help with perception etc. it is also where the technology often drips down from to lower end products. F1 racing cars being a great example of this.
It's the opposite with the Mac Pro though. It's mostly on the small form factor machines that you see the innovative steps being taken such as making really fast IGPs and integrated memory advances for heterogeneous computing, Thunderbolt (low latency external PCIe), better display technology, Firewire (iMac DV) instead of capture cards, SSDs, gesture input.
It's the old saying 'necessity is the mother of invention'. The Mac Pro gives you the option to put anything into a PCI slot and they don't really need to make innovative architecture improvements because there's so little competition, they just add more cores, which is no doubt why Intel's so far behind now. Workstations certainly don't drive the personal computer industry forward.
As a status symbol, it's also the opposite of the car analogy. Sports and racing cars are the best designed machines that everybody would love to have to replace the car they drive back and forth to work with. People simply don't want to replace iPads, laptops and iMacs with Mac Pros because it's an archaic form factor so it's a step back. A closer analogy would be with boats.
The Mac Pro is like a cargo ship and the lower machines are like beautiful speedboats full of babes sunning themselves on the decks. Now sure, if you need to transport some cargo, the giant boat is the better option but the babes aren't going with you. You'll just be stuck with old smelly wise fishermen (professionals) telling tales of yore and how for years they've laughed at speedboat owners trying to transport cargo with their puny boats. But what's this? In the distance they spot a small speedboat full of babes coming up beside them towing cargo with a single cable and it overtakes. The man feels disappointment that he picked the cargo ship and gave up the babes to be with the smelly fishermen.
** intermission for bathroom breaks and snacks **
As time goes on, the fishermen gradually get speedboats of their own and pick up the babes and there are but a few bitter ones who chain themselves to their ships and vow to go down with them. So they shall and they will be rescued by the speedboat owners and see the error of their ways and eventually everyone gets speedboats and the old cargo ships rust away at the bottom of the ocean. Grandchildren will be told tales (rarely factual) about the old boats and how they achieved things that no other boat could in their day and how they don't appreciate the newfangled boats they have now but the children simply run off and play, not really giving a sh*t. It is the perpetual cycle of life.
Boat technology doesn't advance the same way so really it's a rubbish analogy too but the main point is that for all of the power in a Mac Pro, all of the processors that make it do what it does can fit in the palm of your hand just like with every other computer. With the right thermal engineering, the whole thing can fit in the palm of your hand - the Mac Pro is the most apparent admission that thermal engineering hasn't advanced enough, which isn't a good statement. The function of performance expansion cards can be done natively, IO cards can be done with any IO standard, so it comes down to storage, which just needs a cable.
If Apple really wants to make a status symbol, they'd build a box that is a fraction of the size of the Mac Pro that does the same thing using some innovative thermal engineering and people can be proud that they have a machine up to 3x times faster than the iMac in a footprint barely larger than a Mac Mini.
a company with basically unlimited resources has no excuse to not have kept this machine up to date in my opinion.
They don't need an excuse though. The harm that they cause by it is not as far reaching as people like to think.
I'm pretty sure they are moving their manufacturing for the MP back to the US so that needs them to setup the factory, employ staff, get all the equipment setup and ready to go.
"Something great" "later" in 2013 is nothing but vaporware until it is released. I was all ready to spend several thousand dollars on a new Mac Pro to replace my 2008 one, but I absolutely refuse to upgrade to the old-technology overpriced machine Apple currently offers. Again, a company with basically unlimited resources has no excuse to not have kept this machine up to date in my opinion.
While I understand your point, you have to realize Apple doensn't make anything. They use off the shelve components to build the Mac Pro, and in this case it seems that they are waiting for Intel to release a new CPU, one that supports USB3 and all that. Yes, they could have added a new mobo, supporting SATA III, plugged in a faster graphics card, but alas, they don't do that. Possibly that's because 'pros' buy what they need; a new MP. When? When their current one dies. Right before a new model comes out? Yes, because they don't give a FF about what's inside the box, or how it looks. They've got stuff to do.
It's not the CPU itself but the available chipset (motherboard components) that's compatible with the CPU. If Intel's chipset doesn't support USB 3, Apple has to use a 3rd party controller (which is an option). Right now, Intel doesn't have a Xeon-compatible chipset that supports USB 3 or more than 2 SATA 6G or PCIe 3.
Ah, thanks a mil Marvin, I keep forgetting this but now it's imprinted in my memory (bank).
The idea that Apple will ever set out to build a machine that won't leave you wanting more is not realistic. If you sell someone a machine with 64 physical cores when the average is about 6-12, that machine will last a very long time so it has to be priced under the assumption that the customer won't be back soon. That's not a good business model.
A healthier way to do it is to scale it down so that it's only a small amount faster than the old one but it has a more appealling form factor and a lower price. This means that people will buy more for networked computation and for individual workstation use, it creates more growth as the highest machines would be more affordable.
Valid point, though I don't think Apple (or any manufacturer) should create an appealing FF, rather design what is a good and solid. Do the appearance afterwards.
The cube actually made sense for various reasons, as discussed earlier. Thanks to Solipsism for Allen's Law. Though I think they'll make 'just another old school desktop'. They have for 'a couple of decades', and for good reason.
Can someone tell me more regarding the regulation requiring protected fan blades? What triggered this regulation? Did people get hurt by them or did they cause injuries, overheating etc? Thanks in advance.
While I understand your point, you have to realize Apple doensn't make anything. They use off the shelve components to build the Mac Pro, and in this case it seems that they are waiting for Intel to release a new CPU, one that supports USB3 and all that. Yes, they could have added a new mobo, supporting SATA III, plugged in a faster graphics card, but alas, they don't do that. Possibly that's because 'pros' buy what they need; a new MP. When? When their current one dies. Right before a new model comes out? Yes, because they don't give a FF about what's inside the box, or how it looks. They've got stuff to do.
You don't think "pros" care about what they are buying? Sure, we may be forced to buy a current model out of outright necessity because an old one dies or otherwise there is no option. Apple doesn't give us much choice do they? But for me the choice to upgrade is one that I'm a little more free to make, and like I said I refuse to upgrade to the current model, and you actually kinda make my point. Apple doesn't even really have to "make" anything to keep the MP up to date. They just take what's available and slap it into their box. How hard could that be for a company like Apple? If no one gave a FF what's inside the box then there wouldn't be anything to discuss here now would there? Everyone would just happily soak up whatever the Apple deemed worthy of them, except we know there are better options out there if Apple would just take minimal effort to keep pace with the rest of the PC industry.
Why, of course! I've already said that roughly 75% of the current Mac Pro audience will absolutely hate what Apple turns the Mac Pro into this year.
Of that 75%, a third will move to the iMac, with 80% of THEM finding that it suits their needs and the other 20% moving back to the new Mac Pro. Another third will putter around with their existing Mac Pro for years, complaining that it's old but refusing to update to the new machine, finally caving, and finding it was exactly what they wanted. And the final third will just go buy a Dell or HP. And hate their lives, finally moving back to the Mac Pro, tail between their legs, once they have the money and have seen how well it's operating for the rest of the pie chart.
Originally Posted by bdkennedy1
What do they expect us to work on? Windows 7 machines? I can't do my work without a Mac Pro.
Too bad your Mac Pro exploded last night, rendering it unusable.
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer
These are people who don't buy Mac Pros but are here to stir the pot.
You really think someone would do that? Just go on the Internet and tell lies?
Originally Posted by PhilBoogie
I believe that is because Apple is waiting for Intel to release their Haswell-DT CPU with the LGA1150 socket, which also would allow for USB3. ETA is June 2.
Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait… I thought it was just Sandy Bridge Xeons coming out this spring! Ivy Bridge in late fall and Haswell next year.
I saw this thread and thought to myself, "Gosh dang it, they're going to update to the outdated SB chips!"
Did they move the release dates up HUGELY?
Originally Posted by jragosta
The only thing I disagree on is the ODD. Even if you need to turn over a tape for mass production, prototyping is likely to involve a DVD for your client. I don't see it being dropped any time soon.
You're kidding, yeah? $25 external thing. Get that crap out of the machine proper so that it can be reengineered to take full advantage of what truly matters.
Originally Posted by iSteelers
Can someone tell me more regarding the regulation requiring protected fan blades? What triggered this regulation? Did people get hurt by them or did they cause injuries, overheating etc? Thanks in advance.
The European Union is a nanny state, too idiotically overprotective of its citizens to see the obvious:
If you have the Mac Pro open while it's in operation, the LEAST dangerous thing in there is touching a moving fan.
The European Union is a nanny state, too idiotically overprotective of its citizens to see the obvious:
If you have the Mac Pro open while it's in operation, the LEAST dangerous thing in there is touching a moving fan.
I know that EU bashing in en vogue, but it completely misses the point. The revised regulation was necessary, because hundreds (if not thousands) of cheap, mainly Asian, outfits were shipping unsafe devices to the EU and authorities had insufficient regulations on hand to stop these imports before something went bad. These regulations were not done with Apple (or the Mac Pro) in mind.
Nevertheless, all companies doing business in the EU had access to the revised regulations since they were first published in Q4/2005. That's right, these rules were published before the first Mac Pro ever even shipped. Apple and all other OEMs were given a generous transition period of more than 7 years to make their devices compliant. The internal layout of the Mac Pro has changed a few times during these 7 years, and Apple was obviously not interested in making it compliant. No need to blame the EU for that.
Now, let's just hope a successor is not too far out. Not being able to get a new machine for 3-6 months is not a problem, beyond that it would get ugly.
I know that EU bashing in en vogue, but it completely misses the point. The revised regulation was necessary, because hundreds (if not thousands) of cheap, mainly Asian, outfits were shipping unsafe devices to the EU and authorities had insufficient regulations on hand to stop these imports before something went bad. These regulations were not done with Apple (or the Mac Pro) in mind.
Maybe don't stick your hand in a fan!
Look, I can see if the fans from these cut-rate places were FLYING out of their mountings, busting through the computer case, and hitting people in the shin. Was that happening?
Now, let's just hope a successor is not too far out. Not being able to get a new machine for 3-6 months is not a problem, beyond that it would get ugly.
It's a three year old computer. I'm pretty sure people will be okay with not being able to buy it.
Look, I can see if the fans from these cut-rate places were FLYING out of their mountings, busting through the computer case, and hitting people in the shin. Was that happening?
It's a three year old computer. I'm pretty sure people will be okay with not being able to buy it.
The regulation (over 700 pages) covers a multitude of design criteria (fans are actually just two paragraphs). It is not specific to computers, it applies to all kinds of equipment and does not differentiate between "small devices with less dangerous" and "big devices with more dangerous" fans. And it makes pretty simple and straight-forward demands: either the fan is in a cage, or device must turn itself off in conditions where somebody could touch the fan blades (both could have been accomplished with minimal cost and re-design efforts). Fans used in computers can barely cause severe injuries, but they still have to meet the same criteria. There are several electronic devices with pretty powerful fans (fridges, radiators, ACs, etc.) that can indeed do severe damage. Another point is that workplace safety requirements in (most of) the EU are a lot more stringent than in the US (I know, because we have imported a lot of US airport equipment - loaders, conveyors, tugs, stairs) to the EU, every single item required severe modifications to be certified).
Yeah, it's three years old, but if your workflows depend on that one type of machine only (and there is nothing at all at any price point that can replace it)... what can you do? I can have pretty much every workstation on the market delivered same day... just none of them will run the software our people are trained on.
…it applies to all kinds of equipment and does not differentiate between "small devices with less dangerous" and "big devices with more dangerous" fans.
And that's nonsense. Forcing everything to have the same requirements stifles everything.
Yeah, it's three years old, but if your workflows depend on that one type of machine only (and there is nothing at all at any price point that can replace it)... what can you do?
Right. But age isn't a problem now; they can't buy it! "Could always Hackintosh", he says, in jest.
Comments
The only thing I disagree on is the ODD. Even if you need to turn over a tape for mass production, prototyping is likely to involve a DVD for your client. I don't see it being dropped any time soon.
And the number of CPUs will depend on what Intel has available.
Must be a déjà vu for them, after IBM couldn't deliver a 3GHz G5.
bable.
They have a low turnaround time so it's expected that they'd stop close to Feb 18th.
Discontinued on the UK site too now. #BBCpanicbuy
It depends what you consider to be soon. I don't know how much warning they had about this new safety ammendment but it comes into effect on March 1st so they can't continue selling machines that aren't compliant. If they didn't have enough warning, the update will have to be within their already planned update cycle.
Haswell-DT is their desktop line for the likes of the iMac. The MP would use either Sandy Bridge EP (released last March) or Ivy Bridge EP (due Q3 2013 - July or thereabouts).
http://www.hp.com/united-states/campaigns/workstations/z820_features.html#.USN6v2hAyqk
They use Sandy Bridge Xeons, which came out last March. HP's machines were shipping around May. Dell and Boxx use them too. Apple skipped them so if they went with Sandy Bridge Xeons, they'd be using at least 9 month old CPUs.
But they can't go Ivy Bridge Xeon until Intel releases the EP versions in July.
Intel might let Apple launch them in June at WWDC because the volumes are so low.
Using last March CPU would seem a step back, so I wager the one from Q3. Is it true that USB3 requires this specific CPU? (sorry for asking again, I thought you replied on this a while back, but iForgot)
But Intel sometimes releases CPU's earlier for Apple, either due to low volume or to give them a heads up on the competition.
Will, in your opinion, a 4 or 6 socket design be feasible? Does that 1150 allow for that?
That's very true. CPUs are not something I know anything about so this may be total BS to even think ... but I wonder if Apple will ever go it alone on high end CPUs to avoid this even if they have them made for them (not by Samsung of course lol).
What exactly is this new rule?
And is a new MacPro going to be anything but updated processors and slots for flash drives as well as fusion drives and an updated graphics board in maybe (but not necessarily) a new case? What is it exactly that people are expecting? I think people are setting themselves up for disappointment.
However, this new European rule may be doing us a favor as it might force Apple to release a new MacPro sooner rather than later.
I don't think Apple hates pros, it's just that as the company has become so huge and with Wall Street looking so closely, it simply doesn't make financial sense for them to concentrate on machines that don't sell very well.
However, there is still a reason to have such machines and that is that the top of the line drives the perception of the rest of the line from a marketing standpoint. Whether it's car companies like BMW or camera companies like Nikon and Canon, or Sony with their new 84" 4K $25,000 TV, they all have very expensive top-of-the-line models that don't actually sell in huge numbers, but drive the perception of quality. Also, if "pros" start using Windows machines for "pro" applications, they might start using Windows machines as their personal machines as well. That could be the beginning of a slippery slope. Apple used to released computers that they could claim were the most powerful. I remember the ad campaign where Apple claimed their computer was so powerful that they weren't permitted to export it to many countries. Even though most users don't actually need more power, they need to get back to that place and restore the perception that Apple is the best computer, not just that it has the best ecosystem.
Interesting point you raise here. I think PA Semi did indeed design desktop CPU's. DED has an article on that here.
Lol on the Samsung thing!
Exactly right. Plus, not only does a high end product help with perception etc. it is also where the technology often drips down from to lower end products. F1 racing cars being a great example of this.
It's not the CPU itself but the available chipset (motherboard components) that's compatible with the CPU. If Intel's chipset doesn't support USB 3, Apple has to use a 3rd party controller (which is an option). Right now, Intel doesn't have a Xeon-compatible chipset that supports USB 3 or more than 2 SATA 6G or PCIe 3.
Intel does have a new chipset coming - the Intel C610 chipset (Wellsburg), which supports USB3, 10 SATA 6G ports, still PCIe 2:
http://www.chiploco.com/leaked-slides-spill-details-about-intel-haswell-ep-platform-14358/
but this is meant for Haswell-EP, which most likely won't arrive until 2014.
4 socket would be feasible, Intel demos it with the old Nehalem processors here:
but I doubt Apple would go above two. The problem when speccing out computers is that it's inevitable that buyers will create the best machine they can imagine for the lowest price.
The mindset in designing a Mac Pro is usually that it should have more of everything but that would make it less appealling to a lot of people, drive the price up, add complexity to Apple's supply chain and would kill it off even faster because the sales volume would go down again.
The idea that Apple will ever set out to build a machine that won't leave you wanting more is not realistic. If you sell someone a machine with 64 physical cores when the average is about 6-12, that machine will last a very long time so it has to be priced under the assumption that the customer won't be back soon. That's not a good business model.
A healthier way to do it is to scale it down so that it's only a small amount faster than the old one but it has a more appealling form factor and a lower price. This means that people will buy more for networked computation and for individual workstation use, it creates more growth as the highest machines would be more affordable.
I've yet to hear a legitimate reason why a company with more than $100 billion in cash can't spare the resources necessary to have simply updated the logic board of the existing mac pro to current generations, keeping the same case as they have for some time. The "oh just wait for 2013" crowd seems to forget that the 2010 Mac Pro which is the current Mac Pro was only slightly speed bumped last year because Intel stopped making some of the processors Apple was using. And how about all those out-dated graphics card options? So please, tell me again how much Apple cares about the Mac Pro? People would have been happy with a simple upgrade and a thunderbolt port. I certainly don't care about a case redesign. I only care about whats inside.
"Something great" "later" in 2013 is nothing but vaporware until it is released. I was all ready to spend several thousand dollars on a new Mac Pro to replace my 2008 one, but I absolutely refuse to upgrade to the old-technology overpriced machine Apple currently offers. Again, a company with basically unlimited resources has no excuse to not have kept this machine up to date in my opinion.
It's the opposite with the Mac Pro though. It's mostly on the small form factor machines that you see the innovative steps being taken such as making really fast IGPs and integrated memory advances for heterogeneous computing, Thunderbolt (low latency external PCIe), better display technology, Firewire (iMac DV) instead of capture cards, SSDs, gesture input.
It's the old saying 'necessity is the mother of invention'. The Mac Pro gives you the option to put anything into a PCI slot and they don't really need to make innovative architecture improvements because there's so little competition, they just add more cores, which is no doubt why Intel's so far behind now. Workstations certainly don't drive the personal computer industry forward.
As a status symbol, it's also the opposite of the car analogy. Sports and racing cars are the best designed machines that everybody would love to have to replace the car they drive back and forth to work with. People simply don't want to replace iPads, laptops and iMacs with Mac Pros because it's an archaic form factor so it's a step back. A closer analogy would be with boats.
The Mac Pro is like a cargo ship and the lower machines are like beautiful speedboats full of babes sunning themselves on the decks. Now sure, if you need to transport some cargo, the giant boat is the better option but the babes aren't going with you. You'll just be stuck with old smelly wise fishermen (professionals) telling tales of yore and how for years they've laughed at speedboat owners trying to transport cargo with their puny boats. But what's this? In the distance they spot a small speedboat full of babes coming up beside them towing cargo with a single cable and it overtakes. The man feels disappointment that he picked the cargo ship and gave up the babes to be with the smelly fishermen.
** intermission for bathroom breaks and snacks **
As time goes on, the fishermen gradually get speedboats of their own and pick up the babes and there are but a few bitter ones who chain themselves to their ships and vow to go down with them. So they shall and they will be rescued by the speedboat owners and see the error of their ways and eventually everyone gets speedboats and the old cargo ships rust away at the bottom of the ocean. Grandchildren will be told tales (rarely factual) about the old boats and how they achieved things that no other boat could in their day and how they don't appreciate the newfangled boats they have now but the children simply run off and play, not really giving a sh*t. It is the perpetual cycle of life.
Boat technology doesn't advance the same way so really it's a rubbish analogy too but the main point is that for all of the power in a Mac Pro, all of the processors that make it do what it does can fit in the palm of your hand just like with every other computer. With the right thermal engineering, the whole thing can fit in the palm of your hand - the Mac Pro is the most apparent admission that thermal engineering hasn't advanced enough, which isn't a good statement. The function of performance expansion cards can be done natively, IO cards can be done with any IO standard, so it comes down to storage, which just needs a cable.
If Apple really wants to make a status symbol, they'd build a box that is a fraction of the size of the Mac Pro that does the same thing using some innovative thermal engineering and people can be proud that they have a machine up to 3x times faster than the iMac in a footprint barely larger than a Mac Mini.
They don't need an excuse though. The harm that they cause by it is not as far reaching as people like to think.
I'm pretty sure they are moving their manufacturing for the MP back to the US so that needs them to setup the factory, employ staff, get all the equipment setup and ready to go.
While I understand your point, you have to realize Apple doensn't make anything. They use off the shelve components to build the Mac Pro, and in this case it seems that they are waiting for Intel to release a new CPU, one that supports USB3 and all that. Yes, they could have added a new mobo, supporting SATA III, plugged in a faster graphics card, but alas, they don't do that. Possibly that's because 'pros' buy what they need; a new MP. When? When their current one dies. Right before a new model comes out? Yes, because they don't give a FF about what's inside the box, or how it looks. They've got stuff to do.
Ah, thanks a mil Marvin, I keep forgetting this but now it's imprinted in my memory (bank).
Valid point, though I don't think Apple (or any manufacturer) should create an appealing FF, rather design what is a good and solid. Do the appearance afterwards.
The cube actually made sense for various reasons, as discussed earlier. Thanks to Solipsism for Allen's Law. Though I think they'll make 'just another old school desktop'. They have for 'a couple of decades', and for good reason.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilBoogie
While I understand your point, you have to realize Apple doensn't make anything. They use off the shelve components to build the Mac Pro, and in this case it seems that they are waiting for Intel to release a new CPU, one that supports USB3 and all that. Yes, they could have added a new mobo, supporting SATA III, plugged in a faster graphics card, but alas, they don't do that. Possibly that's because 'pros' buy what they need; a new MP. When? When their current one dies. Right before a new model comes out? Yes, because they don't give a FF about what's inside the box, or how it looks. They've got stuff to do.
You don't think "pros" care about what they are buying? Sure, we may be forced to buy a current model out of outright necessity because an old one dies or otherwise there is no option. Apple doesn't give us much choice do they? But for me the choice to upgrade is one that I'm a little more free to make, and like I said I refuse to upgrade to the current model, and you actually kinda make my point. Apple doesn't even really have to "make" anything to keep the MP up to date. They just take what's available and slap it into their box. How hard could that be for a company like Apple? If no one gave a FF what's inside the box then there wouldn't be anything to discuss here now would there? Everyone would just happily soak up whatever the Apple deemed worthy of them, except we know there are better options out there if Apple would just take minimal effort to keep pace with the rest of the PC industry.
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton
So you're pre-hating them, just in case?
Why, of course! I've already said that roughly 75% of the current Mac Pro audience will absolutely hate what Apple turns the Mac Pro into this year.
Of that 75%, a third will move to the iMac, with 80% of THEM finding that it suits their needs and the other 20% moving back to the new Mac Pro. Another third will putter around with their existing Mac Pro for years, complaining that it's old but refusing to update to the new machine, finally caving, and finding it was exactly what they wanted. And the final third will just go buy a Dell or HP. And hate their lives, finally moving back to the Mac Pro, tail between their legs, once they have the money and have seen how well it's operating for the rest of the pie chart.
Originally Posted by bdkennedy1
What do they expect us to work on? Windows 7 machines? I can't do my work without a Mac Pro.
Too bad your Mac Pro exploded last night, rendering it unusable.
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer
These are people who don't buy Mac Pros but are here to stir the pot.
You really think someone would do that? Just go on the Internet and tell lies?
Originally Posted by PhilBoogie
I believe that is because Apple is waiting for Intel to release their Haswell-DT CPU with the LGA1150 socket, which also would allow for USB3. ETA is June 2.
Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait… I thought it was just Sandy Bridge Xeons coming out this spring! Ivy Bridge in late fall and Haswell next year.
I saw this thread and thought to myself, "Gosh dang it, they're going to update to the outdated SB chips!"
Did they move the release dates up HUGELY?
Originally Posted by jragosta
The only thing I disagree on is the ODD. Even if you need to turn over a tape for mass production, prototyping is likely to involve a DVD for your client. I don't see it being dropped any time soon.
You're kidding, yeah? $25 external thing. Get that crap out of the machine proper so that it can be reengineered to take full advantage of what truly matters.
Originally Posted by iSteelers
Can someone tell me more regarding the regulation requiring protected fan blades? What triggered this regulation? Did people get hurt by them or did they cause injuries, overheating etc? Thanks in advance.
The European Union is a nanny state, too idiotically overprotective of its citizens to see the obvious:
If you have the Mac Pro open while it's in operation, the LEAST dangerous thing in there is touching a moving fan.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
The European Union is a nanny state, too idiotically overprotective of its citizens to see the obvious:
If you have the Mac Pro open while it's in operation, the LEAST dangerous thing in there is touching a moving fan.
I know that EU bashing in en vogue, but it completely misses the point. The revised regulation was necessary, because hundreds (if not thousands) of cheap, mainly Asian, outfits were shipping unsafe devices to the EU and authorities had insufficient regulations on hand to stop these imports before something went bad. These regulations were not done with Apple (or the Mac Pro) in mind.
Nevertheless, all companies doing business in the EU had access to the revised regulations since they were first published in Q4/2005. That's right, these rules were published before the first Mac Pro ever even shipped. Apple and all other OEMs were given a generous transition period of more than 7 years to make their devices compliant. The internal layout of the Mac Pro has changed a few times during these 7 years, and Apple was obviously not interested in making it compliant. No need to blame the EU for that.
Now, let's just hope a successor is not too far out. Not being able to get a new machine for 3-6 months is not a problem, beyond that it would get ugly.
Originally Posted by dreyfus2
I know that EU bashing in en vogue, but it completely misses the point. The revised regulation was necessary, because hundreds (if not thousands) of cheap, mainly Asian, outfits were shipping unsafe devices to the EU and authorities had insufficient regulations on hand to stop these imports before something went bad. These regulations were not done with Apple (or the Mac Pro) in mind.
Maybe don't stick your hand in a fan!
Look, I can see if the fans from these cut-rate places were FLYING out of their mountings, busting through the computer case, and hitting people in the shin. Was that happening?
Now, let's just hope a successor is not too far out. Not being able to get a new machine for 3-6 months is not a problem, beyond that it would get ugly.
It's a three year old computer. I'm pretty sure people will be okay with not being able to buy it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
Maybe don't stick your hand in a fan!
Look, I can see if the fans from these cut-rate places were FLYING out of their mountings, busting through the computer case, and hitting people in the shin. Was that happening?
It's a three year old computer. I'm pretty sure people will be okay with not being able to buy it.
The regulation (over 700 pages) covers a multitude of design criteria (fans are actually just two paragraphs). It is not specific to computers, it applies to all kinds of equipment and does not differentiate between "small devices with less dangerous" and "big devices with more dangerous" fans. And it makes pretty simple and straight-forward demands: either the fan is in a cage, or device must turn itself off in conditions where somebody could touch the fan blades (both could have been accomplished with minimal cost and re-design efforts). Fans used in computers can barely cause severe injuries, but they still have to meet the same criteria. There are several electronic devices with pretty powerful fans (fridges, radiators, ACs, etc.) that can indeed do severe damage. Another point is that workplace safety requirements in (most of) the EU are a lot more stringent than in the US (I know, because we have imported a lot of US airport equipment - loaders, conveyors, tugs, stairs) to the EU, every single item required severe modifications to be certified).
Yeah, it's three years old, but if your workflows depend on that one type of machine only (and there is nothing at all at any price point that can replace it)... what can you do? I can have pretty much every workstation on the market delivered same day... just none of them will run the software our people are trained on.
Originally Posted by dreyfus2
…it applies to all kinds of equipment and does not differentiate between "small devices with less dangerous" and "big devices with more dangerous" fans.
And that's nonsense. Forcing everything to have the same requirements stifles everything.
Yeah, it's three years old, but if your workflows depend on that one type of machine only (and there is nothing at all at any price point that can replace it)... what can you do?
Right. But age isn't a problem now; they can't buy it!