First Look: Apple's iCloud data center site in Reno, Nevada

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  • Reply 61 of 105
    apple ][apple ][ Posts: 9,233member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jragosta View Post



    What I suggested (and mstone concurred) is that Apple could simply give the 5 GB to the first person who registers a device - and then that person could keep it. Future users would not be entitled to the extra storage.


     


    That sounds like a good solution to me.


     


    I'm not sure why certain people are trying to make this out to be some sort of super complicated issue.

  • Reply 62 of 105
    solipsismxsolipsismx Posts: 19,566member
    jragosta wrote: »
    You're not paying attention. What I suggested (and mstone concurred) is that Apple could simply give the 5 GB to the first person who registers a device - and then that person could keep it. Future users would not be entitled to the extra storage.

    Surely you understand how Apple can track a device's serial number and know that it has been registered before.

    This is getting ridiculous! You aren't even defining person or what registering means and yet you are claiming to have completely thought out every possibility. Is it who purchases the device so some grandmother gets 5GB for all her grandchildren? That makes sense to you? Is it the by singing up with an iCloud ID? So that means that if you have multiple IDs you can not get it to the proper account if you put it in out of order or the restore from a backup puts it in out of order? And what about the resale value of an iDevice that doesn't get the extra 5GB of permanent storage? Apple may not make direct profit from after-market sales but they do help prop up their ecosystem in many ways, which also includes users like me buying a high-end model knowing I can sell it for a considerably high price for CE a year later?

    So now you have 5GB for every iOS-based iDevice you "register." What now? You get that every single time which means I'd have about 100GB of iCloud storage in 5 years? Do we really need an extra 10GB every year fro just buying an new iPhone and iPad? Seems excessive to me. How much do you use? Seriously, how much do you use?! Do you even know anyone that has purchased more?

    How does that affect their decision? What about other things you clearly haven't thought despite statements to the contrary? Why not admit there are considerations to be made before making wild claim about " all they have to do is…" despite proof to the contrary and evidence that supports that jumping blindly into something without throughout consideration can ruin a brand.
  • Reply 63 of 105
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,342member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Blah64 View Post


     


    I don't give a shit about what Google, Apple or any other service provider does with other people's data, as long as I can opt out myself. 



    What method are you using to opt out of your service-providers data gathering? 

  • Reply 64 of 105
    solipsismxsolipsismx Posts: 19,566member
    "Apple wrote:
    [" url="/t/156385/first-look-apples-icloud-data-center-site-in-reno-nevada/40#post_2290984"]
    That sounds like a good solution to me.

    I'm not sure why certain people are trying to make this out to be some sort of super complicated issue.

    I've not made anything complex. I pointed out some of the potential complexities that would need to addressed in a solution you proposed. You did! The simple solution is just to give users more space, not unlike how they've already dealt with MobileMe users by giving them an extra 20GB for an extra year.
  • Reply 64 of 105
    solipsismxsolipsismx Posts: 19,566member
    "Apple wrote:
    [" url="/t/156385/first-look-apples-icloud-data-center-site-in-reno-nevada/40#post_2290984"]
    That sounds like a good solution to me.

    I'm not sure why certain people are trying to make this out to be some sort of super complicated issue.

    I've not made anything complex. I pointed out some of the potential complexities that would need to addressed in a solution you proposed. You did! The simple solution is just to give users more space, not unlike how they've already dealt with MobileMe users by giving them an extra 20GB for an extra year.
  • Reply 64 of 105
    solipsismxsolipsismx Posts: 19,566member
    "Apple wrote:
    [" url="/t/156385/first-look-apples-icloud-data-center-site-in-reno-nevada/40#post_2290984"]
    That sounds like a good solution to me.

    I'm not sure why certain people are trying to make this out to be some sort of super complicated issue.

    I've not made anything complex. I pointed out some of the potential complexities that would need to addressed in a solution you proposed. You did! The simple solution is just to give users more space, not unlike how they've already dealt with MobileMe users by giving them an extra 20GB for an extra year.
  • Reply 67 of 105
    apple ][apple ][ Posts: 9,233member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post



    The simple solution is just to give users more space, not unlike how they've already dealt with MobileMe users by giving them an extra 20GB for an extra year.


    But that would quadruple Apple's current storage needs and capacity. I don't want Apple to be wasting money and using unnecessary resources. There are a ton of iOS devices out there, and quadrupling the iCloud capacity for every person sounds like an enormous amount of data. And it still wouldn't give the person who has more than 4 iOS devices what they are entitled to.


     


    You used an example of a grandmother and her grandchildren. The first iCloud address to be registered when registering a brand new device is the iCloud account that would be given 5 GB. This way, it would solve both the example that you gave, and it would also solve the problem that I have, and I would be able to get 5 GB added on to my iCloud account every time that I purchase a new iOS device.


     


    You speak of potential complexities, and if there are any, then surely that is for Apple to figure out. But from my point of view, the current implementation is severely flawed, and I do hope that they are working on fixing it.

  • Reply 68 of 105
    blah64blah64 Posts: 993member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post


    What method are you using to opt out of your service-providers data gathering? 



     


    And here I was hoping you or KD might actually respond to the meat of the issue.  Although for all I know you understand and agree with the bulk of what I wrote above.  (?)    I often agree with big chunks of what you write, it's just that you twist the conversations around, ignoring the important bits, and that's bothersome.


     


    As for your question, I will merely answer "a variety of proprietary and OSS tools", and leave it at that.  And no, I don't block or mask every last tidbit, but it's mostly under my control.  As it should be for everyone, but few people seem to care, and even less are technically capable.

  • Reply 69 of 105


    I think it would be easy for Apple to add storage for a single user with multiple devices. When you get an iTunes account you get 5GB free. Every subsequent device you use the same store ID adds another 5GB to your "pool". The iCloud storage is therefore attached to the store account, not each individual device account. If you sell a device then it gets de-registered (just like de-authorizing a computer) and your storage drops by 5GB.

  • Reply 70 of 105
    solipsismx wrote: »
    I've not made anything complex. I pointed out some of the potential complexities that would need to addressed in a solution you proposed. You did! The simple solution is just to give users more space, not unlike how they've already dealt with MobileMe users by giving them an extra 20GB for an extra year.

    Frankly Apple's reason for giving 5gigs and selling more is very simple to understand.

    Dropbox gives 2gigs. 5gigs is way more, plus you get perks like app code/resources don't count, photo stream doesn't count, music purchased can be redownloaded for free at any time. But beyond that, if you still need more than 5gigs, they sell you more. Why? Because that is Apple's model. If something has value it should be sold for a price that reflects that value. No monkey business, no sneaky stuff. 5gigs is competitive with Dropbox, and it's a good amount for a _lot_ of people. You want more? No problem it's just a small fee.

    Will they eventually raise the free baseline? Probably. I don't see what everyone's big deal is about.
  • Reply 71 of 105
    mstonemstone Posts: 11,510member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post




    But that would quadruple Apple's current storage needs and capacity. I don't want Apple to be wasting money and using unnecessary resources. There are a ton of iOS devices out there, and quadrupling the iCloud capacity for every person sounds like an enormous amount of data. And it still wouldn't give the person who has more than 4 iOS devices what they are entitled to.


     



    It doesn't happen all at once. It is used only as the user needs more storage. It gets automatically allocated as necessary up to the new limit, but I agree with your first assessment that if you own multiple devices you should get additional storage with each one. Even so, someone who owns multiple iOS devices can probably afford 5 cents a day for an additional 10GB of storage. By comparison Dropbox is 6 cents a day for the same amount of capacity although they sell theirs in 100GB units so if you just need a little bit more you might not want to pay $10/per month for 100GB. The upside for DB is that you can store whatever file type you want. And, just like Apple, DB reserves the right to look at your files and delete anything objectionable.


     


    Edit: After a little searching and some rough calculations it looks like regular SATA 2TB WD Green hard drive costs around 5 cents per GB and probably costs a little less less than $20 per year to run and cool which doesn't include the data center building itself. MTBF is about 34 years but you could probably estimate that it would be replaced long before that. In either case it looks like both Apple and Dropbox are selling the storage for about break even.

  • Reply 72 of 105
    solipsismxsolipsismx Posts: 19,566member
    "Apple wrote:
    [" url="/t/156385/first-look-apples-icloud-data-center-site-in-reno-nevada/40#post_2290997"]But that would quadruple Apple's current storage needs and capacity. I don't want Apple to be wasting money and using unnecessary resources. There are a ton of iOS devices out there, and quadrupling the iCloud capacity for every person sounds like an enormous amount of data. And it still wouldn't give the person who has more than 4 iOS devices what they are entitled to.

    You used an example of a grandmother and her grandchildren. The first iCloud address to be registered when registering a brand new device is the iCloud account that would be given 5 GB. This way, it would solve both the example that you gave, and it would also solve the problem that I have, and I would be able to get 5 GB added on to my iCloud account every time that I purchase a new iOS device.

    You speak of potential complexities, and if there are any, then surely that is for Apple to figure out. But from my point of view, the current implementation is severely flawed, and I do hope that they are working on fixing it.

    1) I actually suggested doubling, not quadrupling.

    2) The lack objectivity is now clear. You feel entitled because you bought an iDevice but they don't owe anything over than what they promised you at the time of purchase. Don't get me wrong, it would be great to get extra storage (and for that storage to work like Dropbox) but they don't owe you anything so it's best to stop using that argument or we might start thinking you're a California, hippie, minority, liberal looking for a handout with a Hilary 2016 bumper sticker on your electric car.
  • Reply 73 of 105
    solipsismxsolipsismx Posts: 19,566member
    mstone wrote: »
    It doesn't happen all at once. It is used only as the user needs more storage. It gets automatically allocated as necessary up to the new limit, but I agree with your first assessment that if you own multiple devices you should get additional storage with each one. Even so, someone who owns multiple iOS devices can probably afford 5 cents a day for an additional 10GB of storage. By comparison Dropbox is 6 cents a day for the same amount of capacity although they sell theirs in 100GB units so if you just need a little bit more you might not want to pay $10/per month for 100GB. The upside for DB is that you can store whatever file type you want. And, just like Apple, DB reserves the right to look at your files and delete anything objectionable.

    I'm at 15.25GB on Dropbox. It's one of my favourite services. Besides sharing I use it for offsite backups of certain documents. What I think Apple really needs isn't to offer people more online backups for free for devices they've spent thousands of dollar on, but a reason to use iCloud in a more effective way that encourages users to want to buy more storage. I know of several people that have purchased more with Dropbox but none who have done so with iCloud. I suggest a more Dropbox-like usability with the new iOS update, but my desire is too strong to see how viable that would from their point or view.
  • Reply 74 of 105
    blah64blah64 Posts: 993member




    Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post



    ...but they don't owe you anything so it's best to stop using that argument or we might start thinking you're a California, hippie, minority, liberal looking for a handout with a Hilary 2016 bumper sticker on your electric car.


     


    Hahahahaha!


     


    QFT

  • Reply 75 of 105
    mstonemstone Posts: 11,510member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Blah64 View Post







    Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post



    ...but they don't owe you anything so it's best to stop using that argument or we might start thinking you're a California, hippie, minority, liberal looking for a handout with a Hilary 2016 bumper sticker on your electric car.


     


    Hahahahaha!


     


    QFT



    Yeah except if they are driving an electric car, they are probably already in a high tax bracket so they are most likely not looking for hand out for themselves but advocating better social services for the less fortunate. But it does bring up an interesting side effect to owning electric cars. Those people do not pay any taxes for road maintenance which comes out of the gasoline tax. So as a larger proportion of autos are electric expect the gas taxes to increase as well as DMV registration and electricity costs.

  • Reply 76 of 105
    solipsismxsolipsismx Posts: 19,566member
    mstone wrote: »
    Yeah except if they are driving an electric car, they are probably already in a high tax bracket so they are most likely not looking for hand out for themselves but advocating better social services for the less fortunate. But it does bring up an interesting side effect to owning electric cars. Those people do not pay any taxes for road maintenance which comes out of the gasoline tax. So as a larger proportion of autos are electric expect the gas taxes to increase as well as electricity costs.

    1) I was trying to be funny.

    2) Shhhh! I don't want Apple ][ having another reason to dump on the "liberal agenda." :D
  • Reply 77 of 105
    mstonemstone Posts: 11,510member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post





    1) I was trying to be funny.



     


    I thought it was 'Hilaryous'. I was trying think of how I could make that whole thought into a bumper sticker. image

  • Reply 78 of 105
    apple ][apple ][ Posts: 9,233member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post



    it's best to stop using that argument or we might start thinking you're a California, hippie, minority, liberal looking for a handout with a Hilary 2016 bumper sticker on your electric car.


     


    I can assure you that I definitely don't want anybody to mistake me for being such a person as you described, as I honestly would rather be dead.image


     


    I am merely stating that I believe that Apple's current system is flawed. I am certainly not looking for any handouts, as I could always use the method previously mentioned in this thread, and just sign up for a bunch of different iCloud accounts, granting me a whole bunch of extra gigs, if I so desired.

  • Reply 79 of 105
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,342member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Blah64 View Post


     


    And here I was hoping you or KD might actually respond to the meat of the issue.  Although for all I know you understand and agree with the bulk of what I wrote above.  (?)    I often agree with big chunks of what you write, it's just that you twist the conversations around, ignoring the important bits, and that's bothersome.


     


    As for your question, I will merely answer "a variety of proprietary and OSS tools", and leave it at that.  And no, I don't block or mask every last tidbit, but it's mostly under my control.  As it should be for everyone, but few people seem to care, and even less are technically capable.



    That really was an honest question. I wasn't aware of any opt-outs for Verizon, ATT etc, but shouldn't there be? Perhaps there's other methods as you've hinted at. I only asked about service providers as you brought them up yourself and noting opt-out.


     


    And yes I do often agree with what you post, and have said so before.

  • Reply 80 of 105
    jragostajragosta Posts: 10,473member
    solipsismx wrote: »
    Let's examine your scenario…

    So I have an extra 5GB and I'm using that for backups and iCloud app data. It gets unregistered as a user decides to wipe a device that isn't functioning properly (or whatever) but when he builds his system back up a different iCloud ID gets registered first. In your scenario that 5GB gets removed from the account and data utilized on that 5GB gets kicked off as part of your "you lose the 5GB" comment. .[

    I really wish you'd listen rather than continuing to make the same complaints.

    That was only one scenario. The one that I preferred and which both mstone and I have explained to you is this:
    Every time you buy a new iDevice, you get 5 GB added to your iCloud account if/when you register the device. Once you've registered the device, that 5 GB stays with the account no matter what you do to the iDevice. You could sell it, burn it, wipe it, or flush it down the toilet and the 5 GB remains on the iCloud account where the device was originally registered. So there's no need for any of your silly 'what if' scenarios. When you buy a device, you get the 5 GB - permanently.

    None of the problems you envision would occur under that scenario. For there to be a problem, someone would have to either be able to hack Apple's servers to re-register a device that was previously registered or else create a fake device serial number that would get past Apple. If they can do either of those things, my scenario doesn't make it any worse.
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