If you can get a bearing on at least 3 wifi base stations (2 would work but at precision loss) which are GPS positioned, you get a triangulation which can be very good, and it is not that much a strech to call that in-door GPS, as it is conceptually the same thing and GPS is used at first level.
No idea if it is how that system works, but that is a distinct possibility. You can get the bearing by the relative strength of signal with a midly directionnal antenna if the handset move a bit.
Gatorguy's slipping. You'd think he would have already posted his wholly off-topic mention of Google doing "indoor GPS" first.
A little unusual for you to put out bait, and even more unusual for you to point out Google doing indoor location if you considered it "wholly off-topic"
Daniel already put out a great little troll attracter yesterday, and it was pretty effective. Some of the new ones he was looking for may even stay around awhile. Weekends are typically slow.
Google indoor maps seems to be a work in progress. They have mapped a limited number of buildings. I'm not sure what criteria they use in deciding which locations to map but based on the link in this article I tried this one:
Go to Google Maps (I'm on my iMac using the desktop version) search for "Chicago O'Hare International Airport" then zoom in to the maximum level centered on the terminal. There are several toilets indicated by purple circles with male and female symbols.
Having the map alone is ok as long as you can figure out where you are on the map from the GPS signal. Sometimes it's accurate, sometimes not. I gather the wifi will be used to accentuate the GPS data. Google Maps is also flat so it's not always easy to find out what's upstairs or downstairs.
It could go beyond just a mapping solution though. If you're at the airport, there could be a service where you put in your flight number and it will know where you are, how far you are from the gate and your departure time so it could give you alerts about when you need to move to the gate. When you are out shopping, you can get product searches so you don't have to go into every shop to find the kind of clothing you want e.g locations of leather jackets and prices and you go and try them out.
I wish AI hadn't repeated the nonsensical "Indoor GPS" headline that some other blogs used. <span style="line-height:1.231;">It doesn't use satellites, therefore it is not a "GPS" method, no matter how much some non-techies want the term to be generic for any locating method.</span>
"Combinational input indoor locating" would be a far more accurate description.
"Have you heard about CIIL?"
"What the **** is that?'
"Think of GPS, but for a building."
"Then why didn't you just say that in the first place?"
"Because KDarling told me I had to state in the most douchie way possible without any effort to communicate clearly or effectively."
"Oh, that guy again. What's his fucking deal?"
"Who the **** knows."
This would be cool for hospitals, airports and universities. It's easy to get lost in those places. Shopping centres too where they have a layout of where the shops and toilets are.
I'd vote your comment up but this forum software absolutely sucks and isn't possible on iOS.
Having the map alone is ok as long as you can figure out where you are on the map from the GPS signal. Sometimes it's accurate, sometimes not. I gather the wifi will be used to accentuate the GPS data. Google Maps is also flat so it's not always easy to find out what's upstairs or downstairs.
Determining exactly where you are with GPS requires a clear view to the sky. Satellite signals are attenuated/scattered by things like walls and roofs. Then throw in the unfortunate fact that GPS location is much less reliable vertically (altitude) than it is horizontally. GPS alone would be relatively useless in determining if you are on the second floor or the fourth even with a strong signal.
For several years now indoor location service providers and researchers have usually paired your general GPS coordinates with a wireless network of known WiFi stations, tho sometimes including RFID or UWB instead or in addition. When WiFi is combined with GPS signals to determine indoor location it's called WPS for WiFi Positioning System. It's currently a fairly common method and can supposedly be as accurate as 25 feet or so.
Much more recently there's been some research that's identified ways for indoor location to be determined without using GPS signals at all. One that I read about a couple months back used the relative strength of three or more found WiFi signals to determine whether and in which direction you're moving. Another uses just the inertial sensors on your smart device to track your movements, no GPS or WiFi required after the initial location fix.
(Edited - Confirmed info after initial post) WiFiSlam uses both WiFi and your smartphone inertial sensors to track your location and assist retailers getting their product in front of you. Their sensor-only location reliability is fairly rough according to them. No idea if there are actual patents included in the deal besides their location algorithm. Their blog and videos have already been pulled.
EDIT2: GPS World has had some excellent references to new indoor location solutions. One short and sweet one from this month talks about the same general technology that WiFiSlam uses. Yeah, I have a hard-copy subscription to GPS World. I'm a location geek. http://www.gpsworld.com/category/wireless/indoor-positioning/
This would be a great technology for retailers and product placement. They could determine how long a person stands in a certain isle, etc. the store could then sell the information to their suppliers for better product placement.
Or it could be used by first responders in case of an emergency to locate a person in a large building, or used by police during hostage situations.
It's not necessary to say "much maligned" before iOS 6 Maps. Because, when does it ever stop being that if Apple keeps making small, incremental improvements? Think Final Cut X or MobileMe, which were incrementally fixed. You guys -- all of you AI staff writers -- need to just call it Maps. Believe me, people have deep memories for negative sound bites. Most people still remember the Doonsbury comic lampooning the (original) Newton's handwriting recognition when in fact, after years of incremental improvements, Apple had some of the best handwriting recognition available by the time the MessagePad 130 shipped.
It's not necessary to say "much maligned" before iOS 6 Maps.
A little off topic, but as for what exactly we call the app, "iOS 6 Maps" is a bit of a mouthful, and does anyone else's tongue feel like it will slip on "Apple Maps" because of the awkward inner alliteration? I suggest we should just call it "Mapples" for short... (I'm joking - unless anyone else agrees, anyway.)
Many sellers have offered online grocery shopping with competitive pricing & free delivery... Over the years. None have been really successful, and, AIR, studies were made to determine why.
One, obvious reason is that the housewife wanted to squeeze the tomatoes and tap/smell the cantalopes.
A very prominent finding was unexpected -- the housewife wanted to get out of the house and sociaalize with her friends (I often see them, leaning on their carts, walking side-by-side, blocking the aisles).
Also, a single friend found the supermarket an excellent place to pick up girls.
Many malls are social hangouts -- offering everything you could want to connect with friends in a safe, convenient, temperature-controlled environment,
This would be a great technology for retailers and product placement. They could determine how long a person stands in a certain isle, etc. the store could then sell the information to their suppliers for better product placement.
Or it could be used by first responders in case of an emergency to locate a person in a large building, or used by police during hostage situations.
In addition to the benefits mentioned by vXhanz, I concur with those mentioned by Marvin and charlituna about airports, hospitals, hotels, convention centers, and especially finding things at indoor malls. Something that will be of increasing importance, however, is elevation data: which floor of the mall or hospital or parking garage is the person or destination located on? Will the WifiSLAM tech provide such information? Hopefully so!
I'd vote your comment up but this forum software absolutely sucks and isn't possible on iOS.
It's the thought that counts. I think the whole thumb-up thing is part of the overt approval culture we have now. I suppose we always had it in various forms but there's too much of the subscribe to my blog, Facebook, Twitter, Youtube channel or hit the like button so that I can feel validated about how important my contribution is. If it wasn't so ironic, I'd give the whole process a thumbs down so I will instead give it my unreserved apathy.
GPS alone would be relatively useless in determining if you are on the second floor or the fourth even with a strong signal.
I meant more from the mapping point of view. You'd generally know which floor you were on so you'd select it manually and the GPS would show where you were horizontally.
Much more recently there's been some research that's identified ways for indoor location to be determined without using GPS signals at all. One that I read about a couple months back used the relative strength of three or more found WiFi signals to determine whether and in which direction you're moving. Another uses just the inertial sensors on your smart device to track your movements, no GPS or WiFi required after the initial location fix.
I think they need to start relying on other smartphones sharing data, even if it's just the same models. If there are 10 smartphones in various locations, surely it can take an average of their positional data and get a pretty accurate measurement. It would only have to update every few seconds while in motion just to check everything was still accurate.
WiFiSlam uses both WiFi and your smartphone inertial sensors to track your location and assist retailers getting their product in front of you.
Maybe this will be the new Siri. They generally lack features to show off with the 'S' model of devices so now they can do the improved shopping experience.
Yeah, I have a hard-copy subscription to GPS World. I'm a location geek.
I've never heard of that affliction before. It's better than caravans I suppose but I can't imagine how anyone could write a lot of articles about GPS to have a magazine subscription. Please tell me there isn't a column where people write in telling stories about how they got lost in various places.
Something that will be of increasing importance, however, is elevation data: which floor of the mall or hospital or parking garage is the person or destination located on?
I'd like to see them go a step further with the parking because they can tell the difference between the phone being in the car and when you start walking from the device measurements. So when the car stops, it knows when you got out and therefore where your car is parked. If you forget where it is, just say 'Siri, where am I parked' and voila, it uses your indoor measurements to find where you are and the data from when you got out to direct you.
Something that will be of increasing importance, however, is elevation data: which floor of the mall or hospital or parking garage is the person or destination located on? Will the WifiSLAM tech provide such information? Hopefully so!
I have not seen any information on how it works but I assume it is using something similar to cell tower triangulation but with wifi. In order for something like this to work the exact location of the wifi hot spot must be known in advance. If that data is available then it could triangulate in 3D space. Even though the wifi may be locked, as long as it is broadcasting SSID you should be able to get a response from it for timing but the accuracy could be an issue depending on the latency. I think it is pretty clear that this is a technology that will need to be installed in public buildings with the cooperation of the building owner.
I think this will be great, but it won't work very well for a long time because people will freak out about the "privacy" implications and turn the feature off all the time.
They will then simultaneously criticise Apple for the paucity of areas where the indoor maps exist even though it's their fault essentially for being such a paranoid nitwit in the first place.
Many sellers have offered online grocery shopping with competitive pricing & free delivery... Over the years. None have been really successful, and, AIR, studies were made to determine why.
One, obvious reason is that the housewife wanted to squeeze the tomatoes and tap/smell the cantalopes.
A very prominent finding was unexpected -- the housewife wanted to get out of the house and sociaalize with her friends (I often see them, leaning on their carts, walking side-by-side, blocking the aisles).
Also, a single friend found the supermarket an excellent place to pick up girls.
Many malls are social hangouts -- offering everything you could want to connect with friends in a safe, convenient, temperature-controlled environment,
I know you don't mean it, and by your previous comments on the forum it's probably just because you are incredibly old but … this is one offensive, sexist post.
Only "housewives" shop for groceries? (until some dude want to "pick up a girl" I guess)
I think you should leave the 1960's behind once in a while and think about what life is like today.
No idea if there are actual patents included in the deal besides their location algorithm.
There's no issued patents included as far as I can tell, but there is at least one patent application in the pipes:
Abstract:
A method of generating a user's location using a mobile device. The method comprises, determining a signal snapshot on the mobile device, the signal snapshot describing characteristics of unregulated radio frequency (RF) transmissions detectable by the mobile device. Generating the user?s location on the mobile device using the signal snapshot and at least one additional input from the mobile device. The generating and determining are iteratively repeated. The unregulated RF transmission can comprise WiFi signals.
Being able to more accurately pinpoint where I am, would make, "location aware alerts," far more usable for me.
Let's say I want to remind myself to bring something with me when I leave my apartment, (which I have done several times.) The way a GPS, "remind me when I leave home," alert, currently works, is it will pop up for me when I am a block away from my apartment. Really not good enough for this purpose. If I were able to set a reminder for when I leave my apartment, or when I am a specific distance from my Wireless Modem, I could get far more use out of it.
Similarly, if I am out and want to remind myself to do something I can only do on my desktop computer, I might not want the reminder to alert me until I am as close as a few feet away.
Comments
If you can get a bearing on at least 3 wifi base stations (2 would work but at precision loss) which are GPS positioned, you get a triangulation which can be very good, and it is not that much a strech to call that in-door GPS, as it is conceptually the same thing and GPS is used at first level.
No idea if it is how that system works, but that is a distinct possibility. You can get the bearing by the relative strength of signal with a midly directionnal antenna if the handset move a bit.
A little unusual for you to put out bait, and even more unusual for you to point out Google doing indoor location if you considered it "wholly off-topic"
Daniel already put out a great little troll attracter yesterday, and it was pretty effective. Some of the new ones he was looking for may even stay around awhile. Weekends are typically slow.
Having the map alone is ok as long as you can figure out where you are on the map from the GPS signal. Sometimes it's accurate, sometimes not. I gather the wifi will be used to accentuate the GPS data. Google Maps is also flat so it's not always easy to find out what's upstairs or downstairs.
It could go beyond just a mapping solution though. If you're at the airport, there could be a service where you put in your flight number and it will know where you are, how far you are from the gate and your departure time so it could give you alerts about when you need to move to the gate. When you are out shopping, you can get product searches so you don't have to go into every shop to find the kind of clothing you want e.g locations of leather jackets and prices and you go and try them out.
"Have you heard about CIIL?"
"What the **** is that?'
"Think of GPS, but for a building."
"Then why didn't you just say that in the first place?"
"Because KDarling told me I had to state in the most douchie way possible without any effort to communicate clearly or effectively."
"Oh, that guy again. What's his fucking deal?"
"Who the **** knows."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin
This would be cool for hospitals, airports and universities. It's easy to get lost in those places. Shopping centres too where they have a layout of where the shops and toilets are.
I'd vote your comment up but this forum software absolutely sucks and isn't possible on iOS.
Determining exactly where you are with GPS requires a clear view to the sky. Satellite signals are attenuated/scattered by things like walls and roofs. Then throw in the unfortunate fact that GPS location is much less reliable vertically (altitude) than it is horizontally. GPS alone would be relatively useless in determining if you are on the second floor or the fourth even with a strong signal.
For several years now indoor location service providers and researchers have usually paired your general GPS coordinates with a wireless network of known WiFi stations, tho sometimes including RFID or UWB instead or in addition. When WiFi is combined with GPS signals to determine indoor location it's called WPS for WiFi Positioning System. It's currently a fairly common method and can supposedly be as accurate as 25 feet or so.
Much more recently there's been some research that's identified ways for indoor location to be determined without using GPS signals at all. One that I read about a couple months back used the relative strength of three or more found WiFi signals to determine whether and in which direction you're moving. Another uses just the inertial sensors on your smart device to track your movements, no GPS or WiFi required after the initial location fix.
(Edited - Confirmed info after initial post) WiFiSlam uses both WiFi and your smartphone inertial sensors to track your location and assist retailers getting their product in front of you. Their sensor-only location reliability is fairly rough according to them. No idea if there are actual patents included in the deal besides their location algorithm. Their blog and videos have already been pulled.
EDIT2: GPS World has had some excellent references to new indoor location solutions. One short and sweet one from this month talks about the same general technology that WiFiSlam uses. Yeah, I have a hard-copy subscription to GPS World. I'm a location geek.
http://www.gpsworld.com/category/wireless/indoor-positioning/
Or it could be used by first responders in case of an emergency to locate a person in a large building, or used by police during hostage situations.
Use the Mobile version of the site, at the bottom:
And yes, then the forum software still sucks on your iPhone
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton
It's not necessary to say "much maligned" before iOS 6 Maps.
A little off topic, but as for what exactly we call the app, "iOS 6 Maps" is a bit of a mouthful, and does anyone else's tongue feel like it will slip on "Apple Maps" because of the awkward inner alliteration? I suggest we should just call it "Mapples" for short... (I'm joking - unless anyone else agrees, anyway.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum
It may not be a generational thing…
Many sellers have offered online grocery shopping with competitive pricing & free delivery... Over the years. None have been really successful, and, AIR, studies were made to determine why.
One, obvious reason is that the housewife wanted to squeeze the tomatoes and tap/smell the cantalopes.
A very prominent finding was unexpected -- the housewife wanted to get out of the house and sociaalize with her friends (I often see them, leaning on their carts, walking side-by-side, blocking the aisles).
Also, a single friend found the supermarket an excellent place to pick up girls.
Many malls are social hangouts -- offering everything you could want to connect with friends in a safe, convenient, temperature-controlled environment,
Think you might've nailed it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vXhanz
This would be a great technology for retailers and product placement. They could determine how long a person stands in a certain isle, etc. the store could then sell the information to their suppliers for better product placement.
Or it could be used by first responders in case of an emergency to locate a person in a large building, or used by police during hostage situations.
In addition to the benefits mentioned by vXhanz, I concur with those mentioned by Marvin and charlituna about airports, hospitals, hotels, convention centers, and especially finding things at indoor malls. Something that will be of increasing importance, however, is elevation data: which floor of the mall or hospital or parking garage is the person or destination located on? Will the WifiSLAM tech provide such information? Hopefully so!
It's the thought that counts. I think the whole thumb-up thing is part of the overt approval culture we have now. I suppose we always had it in various forms but there's too much of the subscribe to my blog, Facebook, Twitter, Youtube channel or hit the like button so that I can feel validated about how important my contribution is. If it wasn't so ironic, I'd give the whole process a thumbs down so I will instead give it my unreserved apathy.
I meant more from the mapping point of view. You'd generally know which floor you were on so you'd select it manually and the GPS would show where you were horizontally.
I think they need to start relying on other smartphones sharing data, even if it's just the same models. If there are 10 smartphones in various locations, surely it can take an average of their positional data and get a pretty accurate measurement. It would only have to update every few seconds while in motion just to check everything was still accurate.
Maybe this will be the new Siri. They generally lack features to show off with the 'S' model of devices so now they can do the improved shopping experience.
I'd like to see them go a step further with the parking because they can tell the difference between the phone being in the car and when you start walking from the device measurements. So when the car stops, it knows when you got out and therefore where your car is parked. If you forget where it is, just say 'Siri, where am I parked' and voila, it uses your indoor measurements to find where you are and the data from when you got out to direct you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TeaEarleGreyHot
Something that will be of increasing importance, however, is elevation data: which floor of the mall or hospital or parking garage is the person or destination located on? Will the WifiSLAM tech provide such information? Hopefully so!
I have not seen any information on how it works but I assume it is using something similar to cell tower triangulation but with wifi. In order for something like this to work the exact location of the wifi hot spot must be known in advance. If that data is available then it could triangulate in 3D space. Even though the wifi may be locked, as long as it is broadcasting SSID you should be able to get a response from it for timing but the accuracy could be an issue depending on the latency. I think it is pretty clear that this is a technology that will need to be installed in public buildings with the cooperation of the building owner.
I think this will be great, but it won't work very well for a long time because people will freak out about the "privacy" implications and turn the feature off all the time.
They will then simultaneously criticise Apple for the paucity of areas where the indoor maps exist even though it's their fault essentially for being such a paranoid nitwit in the first place.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum
It may not be a generational thing…
Many sellers have offered online grocery shopping with competitive pricing & free delivery... Over the years. None have been really successful, and, AIR, studies were made to determine why.
One, obvious reason is that the housewife wanted to squeeze the tomatoes and tap/smell the cantalopes.
A very prominent finding was unexpected -- the housewife wanted to get out of the house and sociaalize with her friends (I often see them, leaning on their carts, walking side-by-side, blocking the aisles).
Also, a single friend found the supermarket an excellent place to pick up girls.
Many malls are social hangouts -- offering everything you could want to connect with friends in a safe, convenient, temperature-controlled environment,
I know you don't mean it, and by your previous comments on the forum it's probably just because you are incredibly old but … this is one offensive, sexist post.
Only "housewives" shop for groceries? (until some dude want to "pick up a girl" I guess)
I think you should leave the 1960's behind once in a while and think about what life is like today.
There's no issued patents included as far as I can tell, but there is at least one patent application in the pipes:
Abstract:
A method of generating a user's location using a mobile device. The method comprises, determining a signal snapshot on the mobile device, the signal snapshot describing characteristics of unregulated radio frequency (RF) transmissions detectable by the mobile device. Generating the user?s location on the mobile device using the signal snapshot and at least one additional input from the mobile device. The generating and determining are iteratively repeated. The unregulated RF transmission can comprise WiFi signals.
Patent application #US2012/020875
Let's say I want to remind myself to bring something with me when I leave my apartment, (which I have done several times.)
The way a GPS, "remind me when I leave home," alert, currently works, is it will pop up for me when I am a block away from my apartment. Really not good enough for this purpose.
If I were able to set a reminder for when I leave my apartment, or when I am a specific distance from my Wireless Modem, I could get far more use out of it.
Similarly, if I am out and want to remind myself to do something I can only do on my desktop computer, I might not want the reminder to alert me until I am as close as a few feet away.