'Dramatic changes' to Apple's iOS 7 said to include Calendar, Mail app overhauls

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  • Reply 81 of 139
    stelligentstelligent Posts: 2,680member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by paxman View Post


    I am looking forward to what Ive brings. IMO it can't be worse than what IOS is today bearing in mind his design pedigree. I look forward to less use of skeuomorphic elements and a 'flattening' of the design generally. People who fear there will be no more colors, no more buttons, no more references to 'real' objects should not worry. Having said that - usability and design is an iterative process and the appreciation of the same is in a permanent state of progression or at least, flux. I am sure there will be niggles and issues, but generally Apple reduces those to a minimum so I am pretty confident the result will be worthwhile.



    I'm excited about it too. If nothing else, Ive will make sure there is a formally defined design language that will permeate throughout iOS. This was established early on at Apple, thanks to Steve Jobs, but more for industrial design. When one compares iMessage, Game Center, Maps, Mail, Music, etc., it is so clear that different teams of developers were involved, with insufficient communication between them and a lack of uniform design guidelines imposed. Hence, the priority is more about unification than askewing skeuomorphs.

  • Reply 82 of 139
    macrulezmacrulez Posts: 2,455member


    deleted

  • Reply 83 of 139
    irelandireland Posts: 17,567member
    carthusia wrote: »
    I huge gripe for me is that the toggle buttons in the Settings app are a real pain to use. I don't think it's just my monster hands. It is very difficult to slide the toggle over and back smoothly and reliably.

    LOL, you can also tap them. Anywhere.
  • Reply 84 of 139
    irelandireland Posts: 17,567member
    Yes, they need someone unconcerned with the amount of effort it takes to do something so they don't compromise their vision of simplicity and usability. I know how that works. For example, an engineer might restrict their suggestions to solutions that are tried and true and not think outside their area of experience.

    It hindsight it will appear obvious Ive was the right man for the job. And all of these people saying he's not a software designer will be saying they knew all along.
  • Reply 85 of 139
    clemynxclemynx Posts: 1,510member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Ireland View Post





    The side swipe idea makes me cringe. And I love that notifications come down from the top. I think the simplest and best solution is to incorporate a small settings panel into the top of a redesigned notifications panel, but I'm sure Jony and co will come up with something even nicer. Obviously side swipes would interfere with the switching home screens gesture and with that in mind are even conceptually confusing.


     


    It works well on Blackberry.  When swiping on the homescreen you don't usually touch the border of the screen. Swiping from the top was taken from Android and it's not a practical way of doing it, it's impossible to do easily with one hand on the iPhone 5 for people with average hands. At least they must redesign it, it's the ugliest thing I've ever seen on iOS on iPad, with Siri on iPad.


    I don't think settings should be on the notification panel, those are two separate things.


    At this point I'd really be happy if this prediction of mine happened to be true. :)


     


     


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by stelligent View Post


     


    With all due respect, this is veering totally off track. The issue isn't about use of skeumorphs or not. It never truly was. It has been a total red herring that is really really unimportant in the redesign of iOS UI. The redesign is necessary more because there is a need for (a) unification (from one app to another, there is no single design language), (b) refresh (iOS is 6 years old), (c) enhancement of features and gestures.


     


    No one here truly misunderstands skeuomorph because it is possible for this to mean something different to everyone. Stop using "understanding" and "definition" of terminology as a means to trump each other. Sounding superior to faceless individuals is not that important, is it?



     


    Well, a definition is a definition. I'm not a specialist at all, but when people call shadows and gradients skeuomorphs, they clearly don't know what they are talking about. But you can't say that it isn't an issue when those skeuomorphs have been so widely criticized, and with good reason for most of them.

  • Reply 86 of 139
    tallest skiltallest skil Posts: 43,399member


    Originally Posted by ascii View Post

    His hardware designs have a history of making the competition look instantly out of date. I hope his GUI designs will too but it remains to be seen. But at the very least I am convinced he has taste so am not too worried.


     


    Absolutely. He's arguably the best designer in the world, but he designs hardware. Rather, has, exclusively, in the past. But hardware and software are designed differently. 


     


    The job of hardware design is to get out of the way. Hardware is the means to the end that is software, and the simplest, cleanest way to get that means is the best way (and usually the hardest to come up with). But if hardware is the clean window, software is the scenery beyond it. Simplicity and complexity there take on different meanings than with hardware. 


     


    I don't doubt that Jonathan Ive, of all people, could create the most beautiful software we've ever seen… IF that had been his job from the beginning. But I do have some doubt, because he is coming from a different world—a world where design means "the least of these", not "the doing of these".





    Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post

    Because getting rid of the fugly automatically means ripping off Microsoft and Google. image


     


    No, it doesn't. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that some people think the pendulum has swung "too far" one way, and so they want it to swing "equally" far the other. Fighting that should be our charge.





    Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

    Wow, how astonishingly incorrect. You don't truly understand what skeuomorphism is.


     


    Think I do.





    Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

    Criticising Apple no a Tallest Skil like. No matter what point you may be making.


     


    Only if it's a lie borne of either idiocy or ignorance.

  • Reply 87 of 139
    macbook promacbook pro Posts: 1,605member
    gazoobee wrote: »
    Not to pick on you particularly, but most folks are really not clear on what skeuomorphism actually is.  skeuomorphism *isn't* just shading or "3D" effects, it only applies to actual representations of real world objects.  It seems that when most people on this thread say skeuomorphism, they are meaning "anything that isn't totally flat" and that's just not right.  

    So there are really two issues here.  "Skeuomorphism" and "Flatness."  It gets a bit fuzzier when you consider that many apps are not themselves skeuomorphic but contain skeuomorphic "elements."  For instance the Camera app is not skeuomorphic, but the shutter it uses is.  Pages and Numbers are similarly not skeuomorphic, but they have a few textures that could be swapped out for less realistic ones.  Other apps have skeuomorphic "splash screens" like Game Centre, but are otherwise not really skeuomorphic at all.  

    I would argue that the real list of "skeuomorphic" (built-in) Apps goes like this:

    Notes, iBooks, Contacts, Calendar, Newstand, iPhoto, Garage Band

    I would say that "Notes" is by far the most egregious (witness the plethora of Notes replacements in the store), "Calendar" is next, followed by iBooks and Newstand which have those unfortunate wooden shelves and iPhoto, which doubles down on the situation by using those ugly plastic "photo albums" on glass shelves.  (insert sounds of retching here)

    Funnily enough though, the most skeuomorphic app of all, Garage Band, is brilliant, attractive and would be completely ruined if the skeuomorphic elements were removed.  The paintbrushes in iPhoto are likely in the same situation in that they are also skeuomorphic, but also quite brilliant and useful to boot. 

    So it seems to me that as long as they leave the "3D" stuff alone, or the stuff that is merely 3D-ish looking and focus only on the skeuomorphism it's actually a quick fix for most apps and that the fix will please most people and not remove any functionality.  (assuming they leave Garage Band alone and don't go overboard on iPhoto.)

    I am still worried though as Ive has absolutely no experience at what he's attempting here.  
    I won't stop being worried until we see some screen shots, which they should probably leak as soon as possible so that it isn't too much of a shock when it comes out.  


    Absolutely brilliant post! I am nominating you for "Zombie Kill of the..." err "Post of the Week."

    Many people are confusing skeuomorphism with soft edges and translucent colors.

    I would argue that Podcasts was previously the most unnecessary skeumorphic design.

    I would add the following to the list of apps with elements of skeumorphic design: Find Friends, Game Center, Newsstand, Passbook, Clock, Compass, Messages, Weather. The point is that virtually every app has elements of skeuomorphic design, which in many instances improves usability for a majority of the user base.

    iOS is very successful in many areas of design but some apps (Find Friends, Game Center, Notes) have an overabundance of unnecessary textures and colors.

    There are many examples of alternative apps which have very intuitive user interfaces.

    My preference is for Apple to improve core services especially allowing greater interaction between apps. Apple has everything necessary in iOS already to create a better user experience but must allow more interaction between apps to do so.


    I believe that the authors or source for this story and similar stories does not understand skeuomorphism versus textures and colors. Witness the redesigned Podcasts app which was heavily skeuomorphic and is now a much more minimalistic app in regards to textures and colors but still has a very usable design.
  • Reply 88 of 139
    macbook promacbook pro Posts: 1,605member
    amcarter3 wrote: »
    These assertions about Contacts and Mail are mostly inaccurate and misleading. You can search inside a group and Mail has rules.

    While Contacts, Mail and Calendar would benefit from serious improvement in terms of functionality, they are useable. They clearly are designed with Apple's legendary mantra of "Keep it simple" in mind. However, they have lagged way behind and need a big refresh. There are serious functional weaknesses in Mail and Contacts that are irritating and time wasting. For example, in Mail, the "Copy & Paste" function performs inconsistently -- sometimes it "copies" the text, sometimes it "cuts" the text. And, you cannot copy text in the body of the email and paste it in the subject line. Weird! The two most irritating weaknesses (for me) in Contacts is the inability to do a universal search and the lack of auto-text entry for entering addresses.

    Frankly, I can't wait to see what Ive comes up with. His track record for designing awesome hardware is amazing. Lets see what he can do with software.



    [VIDEO]




    The "Copy & Paste" function is consistent. This sounds like user error. Mail does allow the user to copy text in the body of an email and paste it in the subject line. Contacts does have the ability to perform a universal search (name, addresses, employer, phone numbers) unless you mean something very different than what I believe a universal search to be.
  • Reply 89 of 139
    stelligentstelligent Posts: 2,680member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Ireland View Post





    It hindsight it will appear obvious Ive was the right man for the job. And all of these people saying he's not a software designer will be saying they knew all along.


    What are you saying? Despite some statement of reservation, there is no widespread criticism of Ive taking over this responsibility. Or are you just setting the table so you can say "I told you so later"?

  • Reply 90 of 139
    stelligentstelligent Posts: 2,680member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ClemyNX View Post


     


    Well, a definition is a definition. I'm not a specialist at all, but when people call shadows and gradients skeuomorphs, they clearly don't know what they are talking about. But you can't say that it isn't an issue when those skeuomorphs have been so widely criticized, and with good reason for most of them.


     



     


     


    Well I can say that and I will repeat - skeuomorphs are not the main issue at all. Not in the least. Engineering and design projects are not created on the basis of "I want to get rid of this feature." That, my friend, is the root of your misconception.


    IOS has grown into a bit of a a dog's breakfast over the years. There is no design language visible amongst the "core apps". I am 99% certain that the conversation between Cook and Ive went something like this - Since we giving iOS a serious upgrade, it's also time to refresh the look. The way it is right now reflects that we work in disparate silos. Let's make this thing look like it was designed by one company. Let's give it a unified look and feel just as our hardware products have. Of course, any student of Ive would guess that if he were in charge of unifying the iOS UI, he'd choose the spartan look. But a different person could have chosen a highly skeuomorphic approach, which is just fine as long (a) there is uniformity, (b) it makes sense.


    Furthermore, part and parcel of unifying the design is to apply the same design language and guidelines, where possible and sensible, to the hardware and software. This is why it makes sense to have Ive to be in charge.


    To say that skeuomorphic design has been universally panned is itself a serious misunderstanding of the situation, a misunderstanding of skeuomorphic design and a misunderstanding of design altogether. This is not a binary choice. It is impossible to askew skeuomorphs. The play button in iTunes, the very example you raised, is in fact one. So is the virtual keyboard. So is the telephone keypad. Are they going to get rid of them all? Of course not.


    The skeuomorphic school of design has not been criticized by those in the know. Nor is it fading in prominence. It is simply certain applications of it that is catching attention. Unfortunately, we have too many half-intelligent but nevertheless amateurish pundits too quick to draw the wrong conclusions.

  • Reply 91 of 139
    carthusiacarthusia Posts: 561member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Carthusia View Post



    I huge gripe for me is that the toggle buttons in the Settings app are a real pain to use. I don't think it's just my monster hands. It is very difficult to slide the toggle over and back smoothly and reliably.



     


    Quoting Ireland:




    LOL, you can also tap them. Anywhere.


     


     


    Well, daggummit, ya learn somethin' new everyday...but, seriously, why even make it a toggle slider? Where's the "obviousness"?

  • Reply 92 of 139
    SpamSandwichSpamSandwich Posts: 30,989member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Ireland View Post





    It hindsight it will appear obvious Ive was the right man for the job. And all of these people saying he's not a software designer will be saying they knew all along.


     


    I think you're right.

  • Reply 93 of 139
    ankleskaterankleskater Posts: 1,287member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post


     


    Absolutely. He's arguably the best designer in the world, but he designs hardware. Rather, has, exclusively, in the past. But hardware and software are designed differently. 


     


    The job of hardware design is to get out of the way. Hardware is the means to the end that is software, and the simplest, cleanest way to get that means is the best way (and usually the hardest to come up with). But if hardware is the clean window, software is the scenery beyond it. Simplicity and complexity there take on different meanings than with hardware. 


     


    I don't doubt that Jonathan Ive, of all people, could create the most beautiful software we've ever seen… IF that had been his job from the beginning. But I do have some doubt, because he is coming from a different world—a world where design means "the least of these", not "the doing of these".


     


    No, it doesn't. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that some people think the pendulum has swung "too far" one way, and so they want it to swing "equally" far the other. Fighting that should be our charge.


     


    Think I do.


     


    Only if it's a lie borne of either idiocy or ignorance.



    I have great respect for Ive. But someone who doesn't code cannot possibly create the most beautiful software. The UI is one layer of any software. Because you and others are consumers, you'd consider it the most important layer. But it is sooooooooooooooooooooooooo far from being such.


     


    Consider literature - the best prose is not necessarily that which is understood or appreciated by the masses. The masses are offended by this notion and would never agree. But it is what it is.

  • Reply 94 of 139
    majjomajjo Posts: 574member
    macrulez wrote: »
    There's nothing in Ive's long and successful history to suggest he would focus only on appearance without regard to how the appearance and the functionality work together.

    Apple_iMac_USB_mouse.jpg
  • Reply 95 of 139
    stelligentstelligent Posts: 2,680member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ankleskater View Post


    I have great respect for Ive. But someone who doesn't code cannot possibly create the most beautiful software. The UI is one layer of any software. Because you and others are consumers, you'd consider it the most important layer. But it is sooooooooooooooooooooooooo far from being such.


     


    Consider literature - the best prose is not necessarily that which is understood or appreciated by the masses. The masses are offended by this notion and would never agree. But it is what it is.



    Perhaps poetry is a better example. It is generally considered more beautiful than prose but it is indeed unappreciated and misunderstood by the masses.

  • Reply 96 of 139
    stelligentstelligent Posts: 2,680member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by majjo View Post





    Apple_iMac_USB_mouse.jpg


    Good counter-example. In fact, has Apple ever produced a truly good mouse? Ive did redeem himself with the glass touchpad, assuming he was involved in its design.


     


    I'd say the current crop of iPod Nanos simply fail to meet the standard of iPhones. I wonder if Ive has even paid attention to them.

  • Reply 97 of 139

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post


    I just don't want Ive to make iOS or OS X into something that looks like Microsoft's crap 



     


    You mean you don't want a GUI that gives you the impression that Apple fired all of their graphics artists? I'm shocked! SHOCKED I TELL YOU image


     


    Yeah, there's a difference between minimalism and being to simple. 

  • Reply 98 of 139
    paxmanpaxman Posts: 4,594member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by majjo View Post





    Apple_iMac_USB_mouse.jpg


    Well, yeah, there is that. Luckily we now have ...



    ... a truly good mouse - to answer stelligent

  • Reply 99 of 139
    wonkothesanewonkothesane Posts: 1,357member
    Don't try to slide them. Tap on them.

    carthusia wrote: »
    I huge gripe for me is that the toggle buttons in the Settings app are a real pain to use. I don't think it's just my monster hands. It is very difficult to slide the toggle over and back smoothly and reliably. I'm not sure if they need larger buttons or simply need to work on the code. Netflix's larger red volume buttons in their iOS apps work quite well in terms of being sufficiently-large touch targets and feeling very responsive to toggling.
  • Reply 100 of 139
    tallest skiltallest skil Posts: 43,399member


    Originally Posted by ankleskater View Post

    But someone who doesn't code cannot possibly create the most beautiful software.


     


    Nonsense! Of course he can.




    Can he metalwork? Has he wrought steel and iron with his bare (heat-gloved) hands, working a forge with the little accordion blower thing? And yet he makes works of art in hardware.


     


    Does a painter crush his own berries, flowers, and minerals to make his paints? And yet he makes works of art on canvas.





    The UI is one layer of any software. Because you and others are consumers, you'd consider it the most important layer.


     


    On the contrary, software can be both beautiful in its simplicity and vast in its power. Ive's job is to funnel the power into a beautiful facade. 

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