Unfortunately, as FCP7 becomes long in the tooth, many post houses are moving away from FCP because of FCPX. Whether that makes FCPX a crap product or Premiere better, that's arguable, as Premiere has it's own shortcomings. We're transitioning towards Avid.
Wouldn't you also lose the ability to eat, pay your rent, pay for internet etc? I don't see how knowing you will pay $50/month is worse than coming across a situation where Adobe issues an update and you require the update and unexpectedly have a $600 or higher expense in one month. Would it really be that difficult to keep aside $200 to cover you for 4 months?
Also:
"Users will be expected to connect to the web every 30 days to validate their software licenses, but Adobe says products will work offline for 180 days."
I figured it would include some offline options. Thank you for finding that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by the cool gut
Not at all. I originally bought Photoshop. Before CS3, Adobe would let you upgrade to the Cs suite from any version of software you had. So Photoshop 5 which I paid about $500 for, I upgraded to CS2 for about $700.
When Adobe realized no one was upgrading fast enough, they limited how old your version could be before upgrading - I think it's up to 3 versions old. (with a tiered pricing structure - the older your copy was the more you payed)
Well, it looks like that isn't enough either - the PrePress industry is on life support, Flash can't be pulling in what it used to, iPhoto, and a plethora of iOS apps are now good enough for most users who are now just editing photos right on their phone. This is an act of desperation on Adobe's part. Nothing more, nothing less.
I wasn't aware that it used to be indefinite. The 3 versions back thing was reasonable. Most software has a limit of that type or a certain number of years to be eligible for discounted upgrade. You mentioned prepress. Adobe has lessened their ties to that for years. I don't think your view of Adobe matches their current business model. Sure they still offer cmyk support. They need that as it's still used. It's just not where they look for current growth. If you recall with the announcement of CS6, they originally said they would limit upgrades to CS5. That didn't happen. They come out with something shocking, then back off a little to absorb some of the hand wringing. I think it's calculated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
If they're too lazy or stupid to do the research about the product, that's their problem.
If they've moving away from it today, they've done their research and something else was a better fit. If they have to migrate 10 or more seats, do you think that is a whimsical decision? When it's a significant enough change, it tends to prompt re-evaluation as they would have to make pipeline adjustments either way. The shop would be motivated by their own financials and efficiency while you're examining it from the perspective of what most benefits Apple.
Well, it looks like that isn't enough either - the PrePress industry is on life support, Flash can't be pulling in what it used to, iPhoto, and a plethora of iOS apps are now good enough for most users who are now just editing photos right on their phone. This is an act of desperation on Adobe's part. Nothing more, nothing less.
Pre-press has nothing to do with Flash. Every piece of junk mail you receive, every business card, every flier, newspaper, brochure, product package, fast food bag, drink cup, bus stop signage, bus wrap graphic, even your t-shirt is all done with Adobe software. Please get real. There is no aspect of print that is not totally dominated by CS suite.
Having said that, I cannot fathom upgrading beyond CS6 under any circumstances. I eagerly await Apple's response, if any.
The problem I see is when Apple upgrades some framework CS6 uses, and that leaves CS6 behind. Then you're stuck with an older OS, then stuck with an older computer when new computers don't support that version, unless you pony up or find an alternative.
No, it is part of the annual contract. You get the new apps as soon as they come out with no additional charge during your annual renewal plan. I don't know, perhaps they will cancel the whole thing if they get a huge number of user complaints, but I doubt they would be so aggressive with this new model if they weren't totally convinced of advantages and the acceptance from their core customers. It is interesting to note that they left Acrobat out of this subscription only program which I suspect is indicative of the primary customer being corporate users who are not set up to have digital subscriptions for every seat especially with the IT lock downs. They also left out Lightroom as I suppose professional photographers are often out on location and may not be able to revalidate their credentials. Although those two applications come with CC it looks like you can still buy to own them.
My biggest concern with this model: without the option to buy outright, where is the incentive for Adobe to innovate? Before, they were at least competing with older versions, users can choose when and how often to upgrade, to manage their costs and features. Now, Adobe knows they'll get their monthly fee. I'm not seeing where the users, as a group, will benefit in the long term.
In the long run, monthly payments will generally cost more than buying outright. It's a harder pill to swallow, but if you could manage it, then you're generally better off.
But why then would I bring my/any laptop on a road trip? I mean, what's the bloody point? I'd much rather sit on the village green and edit video and images under a cloudless sky than sit in a WINDOWLESS EDIT BOOTH.
Pixelmator is pretty good - they need about 6 months and a couple more coders to be at the Pshop level (being optimistic) and FCP X is almost ready *sigh*
I can't say I like Pixelmator as much as I probably should. The path to get to controls I commonly use takes a couple more steps and is not so obviously placed. Even the help can be inscrutable at points.
That said, I don't use Adobe anymore, I have not used their pro apps much in a long time. I used to use an old version of Photoshop that was included with a scanner, then I bought a couple versions of Elements, which were a handful to keep running at times.
I would like to get Illustrator some day. I like the idea of paying for the software when I need it, but never having the option to buy outright will take some getting used to.
I use Corel Draw (for Windows), paid $400 for it. At the time, Illustrator was $500. I would have paid the extra, but the equipment I bought to use the software had support that recommended Draw. Anyway, at $20/mo, five years of Illustrator would be $1200. There might be value in upgrading, but I like the option to control my costs. I've talked to people that say my use doesn't really benefit from continual upgrades. I can also see the value in the software that it would be worth the extra, but then, why should anyone be happy to spend more, at the risk of getting less?
I have a sign on my mailbox that says "no junk mail"
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone
every business card
I've gotten 3 cards in the last year.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone
newspaper
Nope.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone
bus stop signage
All digital now.
And all the rest of the stuff you mentioned can be EASILY handled by CS3. Companies that make all that shit already own the software and know that upgrading to CC is not going to help them design the graphics for that plastic cup.
This sort of boils down the essence of what I see as the colossally insensitive nature of a lot of reactions here. It assumes that everyone has a steady income. If people have a low, but steady income they might be struggling with their monthly bills. This constitutes a new monthly bill to add to what they pay already. And for what? To use software that they have used just fine in the past — software they paid for.
The problem with the mention about steady incomes and the general lack of income angle is that we're talking about $50/month tops (less for individual apps and students). People pay more than that for other subscriptions that are less important than income generating ones. When people buy an iPhone, they tend to prefer the $0 + high monthly fee vs $650 + low monthly fee.
If you bought the CS Master collection outright then it's over $2000:
That $2000 essentially gives you enough to pay a subscription for 40 months (over 3 years). If you want to do it the old way, you can save up $2000 and then use it to pay for the subscription and top it up when you can.
It's going to work out more expensive for some people who hold onto software for a long time without upgrading. That's a valid concern but not having a steady income isn't. If you have the money to buy it in the first place, then you have enough to pay for a subscription and the problem is money management not money acquisition and even then, it's a minor problem - no more of a problem than worrying about the cable or phone being cut off. Adobe gives you 180 days, which is surely enough time to stabilise your income.
I do think they should have something between the one app for $20 and everything for $50. I think one app should be $10/month, 3 apps $20/month and everything $50/month. They'll probably be able to figure out better pricing models once they know what people will go for. Right now, they really have to make sure to sustain their revenue. Given that World of Warcraft manages about 10 million subscribers, if Adobe managed this, they'd be able to make their current yearly revenue with $30/month per user. They need to have the prices high in the mean-time to get past the transition.
The uptake was quicker than Adobe expected so they've just decided to make the switch. They got 0.5m paid subscribers in the first 9 months. Some of the 2 million free and trial will go over to paid. I think their 4 million target for 2015 is realistic.
Don't forget Pages - already in striking distance for 90% of the population.
Wow! I thought you were a little nutty before. Now it is clear you are living in some alternate universe where Apple is the dominate software publisher for the publishing industry. Clueless does not adequately describe you.
The mail carriers are duty bound to deliver junk mail so your sign does nothing. So your sign is relevant, they ignore it.
You don't receive business cards because you are not in business, The rest of us professionals use business cards.
Bus stop graphics are not digital in my area and even when they change to digital they will be produced by Adobe software.
You are just clueless about professional graphics.
Print is dead. It's over. I'm sorry you haven't realized this, but newspapers all over the globe are in big trouble trying to move to a subscription model. The only people who need the latest Adobe products are making movie posters and advertising spreads in Beauty magazines. The person who designs graphics for paper bags is not using CS6.
Quote:
I am a member of all the trade associations for print, web and trade show graphics and you are not.
LOL! That gave me a hell of a laugh! Hahahahahahaha!
Wow! I thought you were a little nutty before. Now it is clear you are living in some alternate universe where Apple is the dominate software publisher for the publishing industry. Clueless does not adequately describe you.
Please show me something you can do in InDesign that can't be done in Pages. Since you are a member of so many Print "Trade Associations" this should be no problem for you. I'm waiting.
Print is dead. It's over. I'm sorry you haven't realized this, but newspapers all over the globe are in big trouble trying to move to a subscription model.
Hilarious. Adobe mailed me a promo last year saying PRINT IS DEAD all over it. Then you unfold it and it lists all the reasons why that is not true. I kept it.
Please show me something you can do in InDesign that can't be done in Pages. Since you are a member of so many Print "Trade Associations" this should be no problem for you. I'm waiting.
Master pages
Preflight
Print Separations
Spot Colors
Table of Contents
Export to a press-ready PDF with bleed and crop marks
Support for Photoshop files including layer options
I wonder if this might actually INCREASE piracy. People who might otherwise pay for a stand alone product might be more motivated to try out a crack to avoid the subscription model that Adobe is forcing on them. I know people who have cracked the free trial of CS6 downloaded from Adobe so that the trial just never ends. Probably not much different to stop the CC from calling home.
If there ever was a perfect opportunity for a Photoshop alternative to make a breakthrough, this is it. Fsck you Adobe, your arrogance and greed is just stupefying.
If they're too lazy or stupid to do the research about the product, that's their problem.
Why do I see "to Blu-ray" conversions all through FCS 2, then?
I prefer FCP7 to Premiere and Avid. But for dealing with footage from DSLRs, for one example, it is problematic. Our clients had been getting pissed off with delays in the edit suite, with Avid these delays/problems are non-existant and the clients are much happier. FCPX handles the newer codecs much better yet feature-wise it doesn't do a number of things that many post houses feel are minimum requirements, even though Apple is adding these back with each minor update. It's useable, and we do use it sometimes for some specific tasks, but no editors that I've talked to want to use it day-in day-out.
My take on it was that Apple made an error in trying to make to much of a change all at once. Especially considering they pulled FCP7 at the same time. We needed an update to keep pace with developments in the industry more than an entire interface/workflow re-design. They should have transitioned to a new the latter more gradually, over 2 or more versions.
Re: BD in FCS2, you can encode in Compressor for BD, but you can't author it in any Apple software. You can author BD in Encore, but not for mastering for replication.
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
Enjoy your lies.
Unfortunately, as FCP7 becomes long in the tooth, many post houses are moving away from FCP because of FCPX. Whether that makes FCPX a crap product or Premiere better, that's arguable, as Premiere has it's own shortcomings. We're transitioning towards Avid.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
Oh, right. Still works, however.
And… it does both. Even HD DVD.
...
I wouldn't see why not. What, really, could be supported on Adobe's software that isn't in Apple's?
No, DVDSP doesn't work for B-R, and HD DVD is long dead and buried. Even though it was the better platform, in my opinion.
Originally Posted by sennen
…many post houses are moving away from FCP because of FCPX.
If they're too lazy or stupid to do the research about the product, that's their problem.
Originally Posted by sennen
No, DVDSP doesn't work for B-R…
Why do I see "to Blu-ray" conversions all through FCS 2, then?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin
Wouldn't you also lose the ability to eat, pay your rent, pay for internet etc? I don't see how knowing you will pay $50/month is worse than coming across a situation where Adobe issues an update and you require the update and unexpectedly have a $600 or higher expense in one month. Would it really be that difficult to keep aside $200 to cover you for 4 months?
Also:
"Users will be expected to connect to the web every 30 days to validate their software licenses, but Adobe says products will work offline for 180 days."
http://www.studiodaily.com/2013/05/adobe-doubles-down-on-creative-cloud-adopts-subscription-only-software-model/
Those projections likely weren't but the following are:
http://www.foxbusiness.com/technology/2013/05/06/adobe-systems-to-break-out-box-by-focusing-on-web-software/
I figured it would include some offline options. Thank you for finding that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by the cool gut
Not at all. I originally bought Photoshop. Before CS3, Adobe would let you upgrade to the Cs suite from any version of software you had. So Photoshop 5 which I paid about $500 for, I upgraded to CS2 for about $700.
When Adobe realized no one was upgrading fast enough, they limited how old your version could be before upgrading - I think it's up to 3 versions old. (with a tiered pricing structure - the older your copy was the more you payed)
Well, it looks like that isn't enough either - the PrePress industry is on life support, Flash can't be pulling in what it used to, iPhoto, and a plethora of iOS apps are now good enough for most users who are now just editing photos right on their phone. This is an act of desperation on Adobe's part. Nothing more, nothing less.
I wasn't aware that it used to be indefinite. The 3 versions back thing was reasonable. Most software has a limit of that type or a certain number of years to be eligible for discounted upgrade. You mentioned prepress. Adobe has lessened their ties to that for years. I don't think your view of Adobe matches their current business model. Sure they still offer cmyk support. They need that as it's still used. It's just not where they look for current growth. If you recall with the announcement of CS6, they originally said they would limit upgrades to CS5. That didn't happen. They come out with something shocking, then back off a little to absorb some of the hand wringing. I think it's calculated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
If they're too lazy or stupid to do the research about the product, that's their problem.
If they've moving away from it today, they've done their research and something else was a better fit. If they have to migrate 10 or more seats, do you think that is a whimsical decision? When it's a significant enough change, it tends to prompt re-evaluation as they would have to make pipeline adjustments either way. The shop would be motivated by their own financials and efficiency while you're examining it from the perspective of what most benefits Apple.
Quote:
Originally Posted by the cool gut
Well, it looks like that isn't enough either - the PrePress industry is on life support, Flash can't be pulling in what it used to, iPhoto, and a plethora of iOS apps are now good enough for most users who are now just editing photos right on their phone. This is an act of desperation on Adobe's part. Nothing more, nothing less.
Pre-press has nothing to do with Flash. Every piece of junk mail you receive, every business card, every flier, newspaper, brochure, product package, fast food bag, drink cup, bus stop signage, bus wrap graphic, even your t-shirt is all done with Adobe software. Please get real. There is no aspect of print that is not totally dominated by CS suite.
The problem I see is when Apple upgrades some framework CS6 uses, and that leaves CS6 behind. Then you're stuck with an older OS, then stuck with an older computer when new computers don't support that version, unless you pony up or find an alternative.
My biggest concern with this model: without the option to buy outright, where is the incentive for Adobe to innovate? Before, they were at least competing with older versions, users can choose when and how often to upgrade, to manage their costs and features. Now, Adobe knows they'll get their monthly fee. I'm not seeing where the users, as a group, will benefit in the long term.
In the long run, monthly payments will generally cost more than buying outright. It's a harder pill to swallow, but if you could manage it, then you're generally better off.
I can't say I like Pixelmator as much as I probably should. The path to get to controls I commonly use takes a couple more steps and is not so obviously placed. Even the help can be inscrutable at points.
That said, I don't use Adobe anymore, I have not used their pro apps much in a long time. I used to use an old version of Photoshop that was included with a scanner, then I bought a couple versions of Elements, which were a handful to keep running at times.
I would like to get Illustrator some day. I like the idea of paying for the software when I need it, but never having the option to buy outright will take some getting used to.
I use Corel Draw (for Windows), paid $400 for it. At the time, Illustrator was $500. I would have paid the extra, but the equipment I bought to use the software had support that recommended Draw. Anyway, at $20/mo, five years of Illustrator would be $1200. There might be value in upgrading, but I like the option to control my costs. I've talked to people that say my use doesn't really benefit from continual upgrades. I can also see the value in the software that it would be worth the extra, but then, why should anyone be happy to spend more, at the risk of getting less?
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone
Pre-press has nothing to do with Flash.
never said it did.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone
Every piece of junk mail you receive,
I have a sign on my mailbox that says "no junk mail"
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone
every business card
I've gotten 3 cards in the last year.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone
newspaper
Nope.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone
bus stop signage
All digital now.
And all the rest of the stuff you mentioned can be EASILY handled by CS3. Companies that make all that shit already own the software and know that upgrading to CC is not going to help them design the graphics for that plastic cup.
Quark and iStudio Publisher will never get a better shot at InDesign than this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777
Quark and iStudio Publisher will never get a better shot at InDesign than this.
Don't forget Pages - already in striking distance for 90% of the population.
Quote:
Originally Posted by the cool gut
I have a sign on my mailbox that says "no junk mail"
I've gotten 3 cards in the last year.
All digital now.
The mail carriers are duty bound to deliver junk mail so your sign does nothing. So your sign is relevant, they ignore it.
You don't receive business cards because you are not in business, The rest of us professionals use business cards.
Bus stop graphics are not digital in my area and even when they change to digital they will be produced by Adobe software.
You are just clueless about professional graphics. I am a member of all the trade associations for print, web and trade show graphics and you are not.
The problem with the mention about steady incomes and the general lack of income angle is that we're talking about $50/month tops (less for individual apps and students). People pay more than that for other subscriptions that are less important than income generating ones. When people buy an iPhone, they tend to prefer the $0 + high monthly fee vs $650 + low monthly fee.
If you bought the CS Master collection outright then it's over $2000:
http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-65167117-CS6-Master-Collection/dp/B007R0RJRS
That $2000 essentially gives you enough to pay a subscription for 40 months (over 3 years). If you want to do it the old way, you can save up $2000 and then use it to pay for the subscription and top it up when you can.
It's going to work out more expensive for some people who hold onto software for a long time without upgrading. That's a valid concern but not having a steady income isn't. If you have the money to buy it in the first place, then you have enough to pay for a subscription and the problem is money management not money acquisition and even then, it's a minor problem - no more of a problem than worrying about the cable or phone being cut off. Adobe gives you 180 days, which is surely enough time to stabilise your income.
I do think they should have something between the one app for $20 and everything for $50. I think one app should be $10/month, 3 apps $20/month and everything $50/month. They'll probably be able to figure out better pricing models once they know what people will go for. Right now, they really have to make sure to sustain their revenue. Given that World of Warcraft manages about 10 million subscribers, if Adobe managed this, they'd be able to make their current yearly revenue with $30/month per user. They need to have the prices high in the mean-time to get past the transition.
The uptake was quicker than Adobe expected so they've just decided to make the switch. They got 0.5m paid subscribers in the first 9 months. Some of the 2 million free and trial will go over to paid. I think their 4 million target for 2015 is realistic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by the cool gut
Don't forget Pages - already in striking distance for 90% of the population.
Wow! I thought you were a little nutty before. Now it is clear you are living in some alternate universe where Apple is the dominate software publisher for the publishing industry. Clueless does not adequately describe you.
Adobe Credit Card. Truth in advertising.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone
The mail carriers are duty bound to deliver junk mail so your sign does nothing. So your sign is relevant, they ignore it.
You don't receive business cards because you are not in business, The rest of us professionals use business cards.
Bus stop graphics are not digital in my area and even when they change to digital they will be produced by Adobe software.
You are just clueless about professional graphics.
Print is dead. It's over. I'm sorry you haven't realized this, but newspapers all over the globe are in big trouble trying to move to a subscription model. The only people who need the latest Adobe products are making movie posters and advertising spreads in Beauty magazines. The person who designs graphics for paper bags is not using CS6.
Quote:
I am a member of all the trade associations for print, web and trade show graphics and you are not.
LOL! That gave me a hell of a laugh! Hahahahahahaha!
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone
Wow! I thought you were a little nutty before. Now it is clear you are living in some alternate universe where Apple is the dominate software publisher for the publishing industry. Clueless does not adequately describe you.
Please show me something you can do in InDesign that can't be done in Pages. Since you are a member of so many Print "Trade Associations" this should be no problem for you. I'm waiting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by the cool gut
Print is dead. It's over. I'm sorry you haven't realized this, but newspapers all over the globe are in big trouble trying to move to a subscription model.
Hilarious. Adobe mailed me a promo last year saying PRINT IS DEAD all over it. Then you unfold it and it lists all the reasons why that is not true. I kept it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by the cool gut
Please show me something you can do in InDesign that can't be done in Pages. Since you are a member of so many Print "Trade Associations" this should be no problem for you. I'm waiting.
Master pages
Preflight
Print Separations
Spot Colors
Table of Contents
Export to a press-ready PDF with bleed and crop marks
Support for Photoshop files including layer options
Support for Illustrator files
...just a few.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
If they're too lazy or stupid to do the research about the product, that's their problem.
Why do I see "to Blu-ray" conversions all through FCS 2, then?
I prefer FCP7 to Premiere and Avid. But for dealing with footage from DSLRs, for one example, it is problematic. Our clients had been getting pissed off with delays in the edit suite, with Avid these delays/problems are non-existant and the clients are much happier. FCPX handles the newer codecs much better yet feature-wise it doesn't do a number of things that many post houses feel are minimum requirements, even though Apple is adding these back with each minor update. It's useable, and we do use it sometimes for some specific tasks, but no editors that I've talked to want to use it day-in day-out.
My take on it was that Apple made an error in trying to make to much of a change all at once. Especially considering they pulled FCP7 at the same time. We needed an update to keep pace with developments in the industry more than an entire interface/workflow re-design. They should have transitioned to a new the latter more gradually, over 2 or more versions.
Re: BD in FCS2, you can encode in Compressor for BD, but you can't author it in any Apple software. You can author BD in Encore, but not for mastering for replication.