How much of those are the crippled modern equivalent of feature phones and barely ever get used as smartphones (little or no web surfing, little or no app installs)? I would guess a lot. 10%? 25%? 50%?
Shhhhh..... All the Google shills will tell you you're lying. Every time I list a bunch of Android phones which the manufacturers call 'feature phones', they deny it.
Shhhhh..... All the Google shills will tell you you're lying. Every time I list a bunch of Android phones which the manufacturers call 'feature phones', they deny it.
You've never listed even one. You imagined a couple, looked into the future thinking you might see one and didn't know a couple you said ran Android really didn't. That was your list, funny as it was.
But yes, no doubt some smartphone users only use them as, well. . . phones, with perhaps a few texts thrown in here and there. No surprise as some of them are free with the contract. That would include some iPhones and their users too. Still there are likely more Android smartphone users that use their devices like feature-phones.
Apple clearly need a bigger screen, and cheaper models...
"Clearly"? I don't see anything to indicate that they "need" those things at all. Just because you and a VERY few other people in the world say so? Interestingly, even FEWER of those saying "Apple need these things" ALSO say they would buy one or the other or both… on the contrary, I don't see many of the people promoting bigger/cheaper ALSO saying "I'd buy one". M-hm...
Right now, I can buy an iPhone 4S for $99 with contract. Get an iPhone 4 for $0 with contract. Why do I need a CHEAP phone?? Cheap in both quality AND price? No thanks...
I also do NOT need a phone with a 5" (or larger) 'phablet' screen, nor do 98% of the market apparently, having recently read a study/analysis that CLEARLY shows those oversized phones are gaining far fewer sales than the 'buzz' implies… maybe 2% of market at best.
And what does Apple really need with a "cheap", contract-free iPhone? Wouldn't that just be a stock-price killer? Since half the reason given by "the market" for the recent downturns was "shrinking profit margins", wouldn't a 'cheaper phone' just add to the lower margins and stock price woes?
It's the same as when we see articles that report, "500 million iOS devices have been sold", even though half of the people who have upgraded stuck their old device in a drawer each time.
It's the same as when we see articles that report, "500 million iOS devices have been sold", even though half of the people who have upgraded stuck their old device in a drawer each time.
Edit: I see SoX has already answered about Amazon:
None of my (3) ex-iPhones ended up in a drawer… all of them (even my original iPhone 01) is still in use by friends or family members here and there. I'm still using my 3GS, and will "hand down" that one to my nephew when I upgrade this year.
My almost 4-year-old iPod Touch is still in service too, used as a full-service "PDA" by a colleague…
So of course I'm not sure, but I suspect a much larger percentage of those older iOS devices are still in service than the "half" you presumed. Aside from the fact that their build quality means they keep on working for years, they almost all still run the latest version of iOS. I know a lot of iOS users and absolutely NONE have relegated their "old models" to a drawer...
I have been pouding this too. To support the ecosystem you need to maintain critical mass. Since Apple is the only maker of iOS hardware it must do something about the low end in emerging markets. I dont care if they dont sell the low end phone is rich countries, but they need to offer something in China and India ASAP before its too late. Apple is getting is butt kick everywhere exept North America and the UK.
In rich countries, Apple need to come back on top and stop getting own in both hardware and software. Apple also need to expand the ecosystem, again, because its the only maker of iOS hardware. TV, game console, watch... Its great to see them in cars now, but they need rapid expansion of the ecosystem. This may sound silly but they should buy Nest termostats, its a drop in the bucket but thats a good example of innovation.
At the mimimum they need partners for markets they dont want to get into, license iOS for those markets at least. They did it with cars. I cannot stress enough that the ecosystem is key here, at some point people will want an ecosystem that links everything.
WTF good is an ecosystem if the people you are targeting DON'T USE IT!?! The economies you just mentioned DO NOT PURCHASE APPS, music, TV shows or movies! Please do tell what part of the ecosystem they use? It's free ad services.... and even THOSE are more profitable to the companies that offer them, coming from iOS users.
There's probably a 50:50 profitability break even point at 100 billion Android apps to 1 billion iOS App downloads.
The only ecosystem that is profitable for our exalted competition in Mountain View, is the Android Malware Ecosystem™. Those that develop it and the unsuspecting that use that system are making Samsung and the dev's rich.
900 million? Wow. That's a LOT of suckers.
You're Google's product. You're just eyeballs on ads.
And in countries on prepay some of them are folks who can't afford an iPhone and see it as a desirable device, but one that's too expensive. I can tell you with certainty that basically every one of my extended relations would own an iPhone if they were more affordable. Apple has real work to do in this area. 2013 will be a crucial year for the iPhone. If they have an intelligent solution to accompany the 5S product this year, then it will be a very interesting year. Reducing the price of their old phones is well and good, but I'd personally rather they had an affordable version of the 5S, made of plastic with lower storage and a crappier camera, without the fingerprint sensor, but with the exact same display and perhaps even the same proc. cost wise it makes no different to Apple which processor they add. And they should reduce the price of the 5S.
In Ireland the iPhone 5 costs €679 the 4S €579, and the 4 €399.
This year I'd rather see the 5S (or 6) start at €499, and the plastic version at €349 ideally (but even €399).
Those price points would be killer for the iPhone.
And the "iPhone +" could be €599.
How you market a plastic iPhone for €349-399, I don't know. "iPhone -" Haha.
So of course I'm not sure, but I suspect a much larger percentage of those older iOS devices are still in service than the "half" you presumed.
I was going by a report I grabbed last year which asked what people did with their old phones when they upgraded.
About half sold / gifted their previous iPhone. About half kept it as a souvenir.
No doubt iPhones are passed down or sold more often, because they're more desirable when used.
At the same time, many of the people I know have enough wealth to not need to sell their old phones, and they keep their kids updated as well. (The only person I know who consistently has had to sell his old iPhone to upgrade, is my younger stepson. He needs the cash more.)
There's enough room in the world for both Google and Apple. Both can be successful and fans of both can be happy.
There's no need to hate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KDarling
I was going by a report I grabbed last year which asked what people did with their old phones when they upgraded.
About half sold / gifted their previous iPhone. About half kept it as a souvenir.
No doubt iPhones are passed down or sold more often, because they're more desirable when used.
At the same time, many of the people I know have enough wealth to not need to sell their old phones, and they keep their kids updated as well. (The only person I know who consistently has had to sell his old iPhone to upgrade, is my younger stepson. He needs the cash more.)
Yes I bet there is a greater percentage of iPhones in use relative to the numbers sold/activated. Apple either need to make this more obvious - by just mentioning it more - or make it less of an issue to buy a cheaper iPhone.
It's the same as when we see articles that report, "500 million iOS devices have been sold", even though half of the people who have upgraded stuck their old device in a drawer each time.
Edit: I see SoX has already answered about Amazon:
According to Google themselves, around 60% of Android devices run version 4.x (I think I'm fair to include both 4.0 ICS and 4.1 JB, as I could also have only counted 4.1 which is only 26%)
That's 300 million running the latest iOS major revision. Considering how recent iOS 6 is, I would guess that not a lot of them are stuck in a drawer. And if you also add all the iOS devices still in used and running iOS 4-5 I think it would be safe to assume that there are at least 300 million iOS devices in use.
That's 300 million running the latest iOS major revision. Considering how recent iOS 6 is, I would guess that not a lot of them are stuck in a drawer. And if you also add all the iOS devices still in used and running iOS 4-5 I think it would be safe to assume that there are at least 300 million iOS devices in use.
Oh, I agree. The "half" referred only to phones being upgraded, btw. (I should't have used "devices" but thought it was clear from the "upgrade" comment.) My fault.
I wonder if they aren't counting Apps already installed on the phone, like Google Maps, Mail, etc. They just say installed Apps not purchased/downloaded apps, that is several billion right there at least if that is the case.
I wonder if they aren't counting Apps already installed on the phone, like Google Maps, Mail, etc. They just say installed Apps not purchased/downloaded apps, that is several billion right there at least if that is the case.
Indeed… what a difference a word makes, eh? "shipped" vs "sold" changes the landscape of 'market share'… "installed" vs "downloaded" can alter the perception in real terms of how many "active" users there actually are. It's sad that we need to waste so much time parsing the rhetoric, but there it is...
I've downloaded quite a few hundred apps over the 4 or 5 years since buying my first iPhone (about a week after the original one first released but I think the app store wasn't there yet). I've also deleted a very large number of apps over that same period. I think iTunes on my iMac shows a few hundred still in the 'library', with maybe half of those actually installed to one device or another...
App Developers have made a pretty good bit of income from me, as a single user. I've probably spent, on average, about $100 a year on various and sundry apps, maybe a bit more. Multiply that by a few hundred million people, and it explains why it's a strong market...
I was going by a report I grabbed last year which asked what people did with their old phones when they upgraded.
About half sold / gifted their previous iPhone. About half kept it as a souvenir.
No doubt iPhones are passed down or sold more often, because they're more desirable when used.
At the same time, many of the people I know have enough wealth to not need to sell their old phones, and they keep their kids updated as well. (The only person I know who consistently has had to sell his old iPhone to upgrade, is my younger stepson. He needs the cash more.)
I remember seeing that report, or one like it. I suspected at the time (and still do) that the reality is that at least a third more are "repurposed" to friends, family or "second use"… My original iPhone moved into the role of "in-car iPod" for about 6 months after I "replaced" it, and before I bought a larger capacity iPod Touch. Then the 'car phone' went to mom, who decided she was finally ready for some modern telecommunication.
I know people who have upgraded their iPhones and still use their old ones, e.g. as a remote and a coffee table "portal" for quick-checking weather, googling something, etc. Even without a sim or active phone service, they are useful devices… and people will still download (including pay for) apps for THAT specific "home bound" device.
This is what counts in the long run, I think. Not only that they don't go into a drawer to gather dust, but can continue to generate revenue even when not in full service.
Comments
Huh? I figure that would make it more obvious.
Originally Posted by 512ke
Sad if you like Apple. Good news if you like Google.
It is a post Apple era.
Don't you have a shrine of Eric Schmidt to sacrifice a virgin in front of? Best get on that.
Would a just moments ago virgin count?
Shhhhh..... All the Google shills will tell you you're lying. Every time I list a bunch of Android phones which the manufacturers call 'feature phones', they deny it.
That's not how gross margins are calculated. If the cost is $150 and selling price is $200, that's a 25% gross margin.
You're referring to markup - which is a term that manufacturers rarely use. It is sometimes used on retail, though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
Shhhhh..... All the Google shills will tell you you're lying. Every time I list a bunch of Android phones which the manufacturers call 'feature phones', they deny it.
You've never listed even one. You imagined a couple, looked into the future thinking you might see one and didn't know a couple you said ran Android really didn't. That was your list, funny as it was.
But yes, no doubt some smartphone users only use them as, well. . . phones, with perhaps a few texts thrown in here and there. No surprise as some of them are free with the contract. That would include some iPhones and their users too. Still there are likely more Android smartphone users that use their devices like feature-phones.
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdasd
Apple clearly need a bigger screen, and cheaper models...
"Clearly"? I don't see anything to indicate that they "need" those things at all. Just because you and a VERY few other people in the world say so? Interestingly, even FEWER of those saying "Apple need these things" ALSO say they would buy one or the other or both… on the contrary, I don't see many of the people promoting bigger/cheaper ALSO saying "I'd buy one". M-hm...
Right now, I can buy an iPhone 4S for $99 with contract. Get an iPhone 4 for $0 with contract. Why do I need a CHEAP phone?? Cheap in both quality AND price? No thanks...
I also do NOT need a phone with a 5" (or larger) 'phablet' screen, nor do 98% of the market apparently, having recently read a study/analysis that CLEARLY shows those oversized phones are gaining far fewer sales than the 'buzz' implies… maybe 2% of market at best.
And what does Apple really need with a "cheap", contract-free iPhone? Wouldn't that just be a stock-price killer? Since half the reason given by "the market" for the recent downturns was "shrinking profit margins", wouldn't a 'cheaper phone' just add to the lower margins and stock price woes?
Stuff and nonsense, I say...
The difference Apple states how many iPhones they ship and that many iPhones are reused as iPods (when replaced) or sold to a new user.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KDarling
Yes, it's the grand total.
It's the same as when we see articles that report, "500 million iOS devices have been sold", even though half of the people who have upgraded stuck their old device in a drawer each time.
Edit: I see SoX has already answered about Amazon:
http://www.theverge.com/2012/2/27/2827545/andy-rubin-850k-android-activations-a-day-300m-total-devices-12m
None of my (3) ex-iPhones ended up in a drawer… all of them (even my original iPhone 01) is still in use by friends or family members here and there. I'm still using my 3GS, and will "hand down" that one to my nephew when I upgrade this year.
My almost 4-year-old iPod Touch is still in service too, used as a full-service "PDA" by a colleague…
So of course I'm not sure, but I suspect a much larger percentage of those older iOS devices are still in service than the "half" you presumed. Aside from the fact that their build quality means they keep on working for years, they almost all still run the latest version of iOS. I know a lot of iOS users and absolutely NONE have relegated their "old models" to a drawer...
WTF good is an ecosystem if the people you are targeting DON'T USE IT!?! The economies you just mentioned DO NOT PURCHASE APPS, music, TV shows or movies! Please do tell what part of the ecosystem they use? It's free ad services.... and even THOSE are more profitable to the companies that offer them, coming from iOS users.
There's probably a 50:50 profitability break even point at 100 billion Android apps to 1 billion iOS App downloads.
The only ecosystem that is profitable for our exalted competition in Mountain View, is the Android Malware Ecosystem™. Those that develop it and the unsuspecting that use that system are making Samsung and the dev's rich.
And in countries on prepay some of them are folks who can't afford an iPhone and see it as a desirable device, but one that's too expensive. I can tell you with certainty that basically every one of my extended relations would own an iPhone if they were more affordable. Apple has real work to do in this area. 2013 will be a crucial year for the iPhone. If they have an intelligent solution to accompany the 5S product this year, then it will be a very interesting year. Reducing the price of their old phones is well and good, but I'd personally rather they had an affordable version of the 5S, made of plastic with lower storage and a crappier camera, without the fingerprint sensor, but with the exact same display and perhaps even the same proc. cost wise it makes no different to Apple which processor they add. And they should reduce the price of the 5S.
In Ireland the iPhone 5 costs €679 the 4S €579, and the 4 €399.
This year I'd rather see the 5S (or 6) start at €499, and the plastic version at €349 ideally (but even €399).
Those price points would be killer for the iPhone.
And the "iPhone +" could be €599.
How you market a plastic iPhone for €349-399, I don't know. "iPhone -" Haha.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tribalogical
So of course I'm not sure, but I suspect a much larger percentage of those older iOS devices are still in service than the "half" you presumed.
I was going by a report I grabbed last year which asked what people did with their old phones when they upgraded.
About half sold / gifted their previous iPhone. About half kept it as a souvenir.
No doubt iPhones are passed down or sold more often, because they're more desirable when used.
At the same time, many of the people I know have enough wealth to not need to sell their old phones, and they keep their kids updated as well. (The only person I know who consistently has had to sell his old iPhone to upgrade, is my younger stepson. He needs the cash more.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichL
I've got to agree with Google CEO Larry Page - Technology isn't a zero-sum game.
There's enough room in the world for both Google and Apple. Both can be successful and fans of both can be happy.
There's no need to hate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KDarling
I was going by a report I grabbed last year which asked what people did with their old phones when they upgraded.
About half sold / gifted their previous iPhone. About half kept it as a souvenir.
No doubt iPhones are passed down or sold more often, because they're more desirable when used.
At the same time, many of the people I know have enough wealth to not need to sell their old phones, and they keep their kids updated as well. (The only person I know who consistently has had to sell his old iPhone to upgrade, is my younger stepson. He needs the cash more.)
Yes I bet there is a greater percentage of iPhones in use relative to the numbers sold/activated. Apple either need to make this more obvious - by just mentioning it more - or make it less of an issue to buy a cheaper iPhone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KDarling
Yes, it's the grand total.
It's the same as when we see articles that report, "500 million iOS devices have been sold", even though half of the people who have upgraded stuck their old device in a drawer each time.
Edit: I see SoX has already answered about Amazon:
http://www.theverge.com/2012/2/27/2827545/andy-rubin-850k-android-activations-a-day-300m-total-devices-12m
According to Google themselves, around 60% of Android devices run version 4.x (I think I'm fair to include both 4.0 ICS and 4.1 JB, as I could also have only counted 4.1 which is only 26%)
http://developer.android.com/about/dashboards/index.html
And according to Apple, there were nearly 300 million iOS devices running iOS 6 in January 2013 (probably more now).
http://www.macrumors.com/2013/01/28/nearly-300-million-devices-running-ios-6-60-of-all-ios-devices-ever/
That's 300 million running the latest iOS major revision. Considering how recent iOS 6 is, I would guess that not a lot of them are stuck in a drawer. And if you also add all the iOS devices still in used and running iOS 4-5 I think it would be safe to assume that there are at least 300 million iOS devices in use.
Quote:
Originally Posted by VL-Tone
That's 300 million running the latest iOS major revision. Considering how recent iOS 6 is, I would guess that not a lot of them are stuck in a drawer. And if you also add all the iOS devices still in used and running iOS 4-5 I think it would be safe to assume that there are at least 300 million iOS devices in use.
Oh, I agree. The "half" referred only to phones being upgraded, btw. (I should't have used "devices" but thought it was clear from the "upgrade" comment.) My fault.
I wonder if they aren't counting Apps already installed on the phone, like Google Maps, Mail, etc. They just say installed Apps not purchased/downloaded apps, that is several billion right there at least if that is the case.
Quote:
Originally Posted by imt1
I wonder if they aren't counting Apps already installed on the phone, like Google Maps, Mail, etc. They just say installed Apps not purchased/downloaded apps, that is several billion right there at least if that is the case.
Indeed… what a difference a word makes, eh? "shipped" vs "sold" changes the landscape of 'market share'… "installed" vs "downloaded" can alter the perception in real terms of how many "active" users there actually are. It's sad that we need to waste so much time parsing the rhetoric, but there it is...
I've downloaded quite a few hundred apps over the 4 or 5 years since buying my first iPhone (about a week after the original one first released but I think the app store wasn't there yet). I've also deleted a very large number of apps over that same period. I think iTunes on my iMac shows a few hundred still in the 'library', with maybe half of those actually installed to one device or another...
App Developers have made a pretty good bit of income from me, as a single user. I've probably spent, on average, about $100 a year on various and sundry apps, maybe a bit more. Multiply that by a few hundred million people, and it explains why it's a strong market...
Google wants some of that action for sure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KDarling
I was going by a report I grabbed last year which asked what people did with their old phones when they upgraded.
About half sold / gifted their previous iPhone. About half kept it as a souvenir.
No doubt iPhones are passed down or sold more often, because they're more desirable when used.
At the same time, many of the people I know have enough wealth to not need to sell their old phones, and they keep their kids updated as well. (The only person I know who consistently has had to sell his old iPhone to upgrade, is my younger stepson. He needs the cash more.)
I remember seeing that report, or one like it. I suspected at the time (and still do) that the reality is that at least a third more are "repurposed" to friends, family or "second use"… My original iPhone moved into the role of "in-car iPod" for about 6 months after I "replaced" it, and before I bought a larger capacity iPod Touch. Then the 'car phone' went to mom, who decided she was finally ready for some modern telecommunication.
I know people who have upgraded their iPhones and still use their old ones, e.g. as a remote and a coffee table "portal" for quick-checking weather, googling something, etc. Even without a sim or active phone service, they are useful devices… and people will still download (including pay for) apps for THAT specific "home bound" device.
This is what counts in the long run, I think. Not only that they don't go into a drawer to gather dust, but can continue to generate revenue even when not in full service.