Apple reportedly latest company to join US government's PRISM data mining program [ux2]

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  • Reply 21 of 129
    japmjapm Posts: 36member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post



    Why don't you think it's suspicious that Google, Facebook, and Yahoo are also on the list but deny involvement?


     


    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/06/06/how-congress-unknowingly-legalized-prism-in-2007/

  • Reply 22 of 129
    mrstepmrstep Posts: 516member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post





    So two people who are not named but "with knowledge of some aspects of the program" are proof that Apple is lying? How do you know these two people are telling the truth? Why don't you think it's suspicious that Google, Facebook, and Yahoo are also on the list but deny involvement?


     


    Really, you're just worried about someone thinking that Apple might be lying? They're probably all lying.


     


    If you look over on Ars, they got responses from a number of these companies. Microsoft's statement is: "We provide customer data only when we receive a legally binding order or subpoena to do so, and never on a voluntary basis. In addition we only ever comply with orders for requests about specific accounts or identifiers. If the government has a broader voluntary national security program to gather customer data we don’t participate in it."


     


    Oh, we only provide the data when we receive a legally binding order or subpoena. OK, so far, that would fall under a program like this.


     


    If the government has a broader voluntary national security program... Uh, so what about a broader involuntary program? Happily, sentences that are word-smithed like this in no way actually deny the existence or participation in. It's vague legalese intended to sound like a denial while in no way stating "there is no such program and we would never participate in anything of that nature". THAT would be a denial.


     


    Facebook has a similarly smarmy response: "Protecting the privacy of our users and their data is a top priority for Facebook. We do not provide any government organization with direct access to Facebook servers. When Facebook is asked for data or information about specific individuals, we carefully scrutinize any such request for compliance with all applicable laws, and provide information only to the extent required by law."


     


    First sentence is meaningless. Second... Not providing direct access to Facebook servers means nothing. So they stream the data to that agencies servers and thereby don't have to provide access to their own. BFD. "When asked about individuals..." - OK, but the entire point is that they don't even have to be asked if their data is being mirrored out to shadow servers where it is archived/mined at will.


     


    In a world where the data taps at the internet backbones have been leaked, Echelon is known, the refusal of the government and courts to apply existing standards of privacy (like needing warrants to intercept your mail or phone calls!) just because the word 'mobile' or 'e-' has been added to the front of it, there's little reason to think that a revelation about a system like this is improbable at all. Which is actually pretty sad - and certainly isn't just about Apple.

  • Reply 23 of 129
    dreyfus2dreyfus2 Posts: 1,072member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by geekdad View Post


    I think it could be that they ALL are going to deny involvement. No company wants to be associated with secret Internet data mining involving the government.



     


    Well, FWIW, if that would be true (which I am not convinced of), there would be another valid reason. At least in the EU that would mean a severe breach of safe harbour agreements under which US companies are allowed to store data of EU citizens. This could result in billions of fines.

  • Reply 24 of 129
    mrstepmrstep Posts: 516member


     


    Yep, and it's pretty safe to bet that these companies weren't asking for retroactive immunity for laws they violated just because they thought it sounded like a cool thing to ask for.

  • Reply 25 of 129
    geekdadgeekdad Posts: 1,131member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by dreyfus2 View Post


     


    Well, FWIW, if that would be true (which I am not convinced of), there would be another valid reason. At least in the EU that would mean a severe breach of safe harbour agreements under which US companies are allowed to store data of EU citizens. This could result in billions of fines.



    I am not sure i read where it the EU was included....I think they are just compiling big data information in the US....


    But you are right the EU would have them for lunch over this stuff....but they would have to prove it first.....

  • Reply 26 of 129
    solipsismxsolipsismx Posts: 19,566member
    geekdad wrote: »
    I think it could be that they ALL are going to deny involvement. No company wants to be associated with <span style="color:rgb(24,24,24);font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;line-height:18.1875px;">secret Internet data mining involving the government.</span>

    Surely they couldn't have thought of this independently. It must be conspiracy and collusion.
  • Reply 27 of 129
    geekdadgeekdad Posts: 1,131member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post





    Surely they couldn't have thought of this independently. It must be conspiracy and collusion.


    i am not sure i follow.......i never said anything about a jointed denial effort. I just said no company wants to be associated with giving the government customer data.  It is bad PR.....

  • Reply 28 of 129
    solipsismxsolipsismx Posts: 19,566member
    mrstep wrote: »
    Really, you're just worried about someone thinking that Apple might be lying? They're probably all lying.

    Perhaps they are lying or perhaps none of them, but the OP wasn't trying to be objective in his comment. He simply took one bit of info and deemed it fact and everything else false because it fit his agenda.
  • Reply 29 of 129
    solipsismxsolipsismx Posts: 19,566member
    geekdad wrote: »
    i am not sure i follow.......i never said anything about a jointed denial effort. I just said no company wants to be associated with giving the government customer data.  It is bad PR.....

    Perhaps my comment was too esoteric. It's a reference to the DoJ case with Apple over iBookstore.
  • Reply 30 of 129
    geekdadgeekdad Posts: 1,131member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post





    Perhaps my comment was too esoteric. It's a reference to the DoJ case with Apple over iBookstore.


    oh...you made a joke....sorry i did not get that reference.....

  • Reply 31 of 129
    japmjapm Posts: 36member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post





    Perhaps they are lying or perhaps none of them, but the OP wasn't trying to be objective in his comment. He simply took one bit of info and deemed it fact and everything else false because it fit his agenda.


     


    What agenda? Are you watching the news?


     


    PRISM has been confirmed by many many sources inside congress and government in general.


    Those companies DO provide back door access for the NSA and they DO have agreements for that, which makes their statements LIES.

  • Reply 32 of 129
    SpamSandwichSpamSandwich Posts: 33,407member
    Do the Americans that have been stockpiling weapons, ammo, food, water and fuel for years have a leaving date? I wish them all bon voyage.

    Nobody said anything about leaving.
  • Reply 33 of 129
    mdriftmeyermdriftmeyer Posts: 7,503member
    This is the NSA. We've been running surveillance on supercomputers and prior to that mainframes ever since they were invented.

    Dear Ireland,

    Your ignorance is showing. This crap was expanded after 9/11 when a moron was in the White House.

    Furthermore, this is standard practice since the 1950s. We've just gotten better technology to do it today.
  • Reply 34 of 129
    SpamSandwichSpamSandwich Posts: 33,407member
    japm wrote: »
    [SIZE=14px]It's official, Apple LIED - they ARE participating  in PRISM.[/SIZE]



    It is ILLEGAL for people and businesses served with these orders to even discuss their existence. That is actually in the law!
  • Reply 35 of 129
    solipsismxsolipsismx Posts: 19,566member
    japm wrote: »
    What agenda? Are you watching the news?

    PRISM has been confirmed by many many sources inside congress and government in general.
    Those companies DO provide back door access for the NSA and they DO have agreements for that, which makes their statements LIES.

    And you know this is factual because it was said on TV but when Apple, Google, Facebook and Yahoo said they don't it's not factual because they said it? You honestly don't see how your comments are silly?
  • Reply 36 of 129
    mdriftmeyermdriftmeyer Posts: 7,503member


    AI should stop with the Political threads. The amount of ignorance that is spread via political blogs on tech journals should be a reminder why most tech heads are legally and politically illiterate.


     


    If you think recording phone number nodal relationships is new, then you probably never heard of Ma Bell. Grow a nutsack and understand this is a fear in search of a problem.

  • Reply 37 of 129
    ericblrericblr Posts: 172member


    Yes, Bush and his "Patriot act" was a disaster, but then again so was Clinton's "carnivore" email spying program.  The government has been utilizing the latest technology to spy on people for a long time.  It's not exclusive to either party.

  • Reply 38 of 129
    SpamSandwichSpamSandwich Posts: 33,407member

    This crap was expanded after 9/11 when a moron was in the White House.

    The current administration took advantage of the unconstitutional expansion of presidential powers spearheaded by Cheney and our war machine special interests. Obama and his gang have done nothing to "fix" what Bush+Cheney broke because it made the Democrat's agenda easier to push. Who's the bigger fool?
  • Reply 39 of 129
    japmjapm Posts: 36member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post





    And you know this is factual because it was said on TV but when Apple, Google, Facebook and Yahoo said they don't it's not factual because they said it?


     


    Apple's privacy policy states clearly






    It may be necessary ? by law, legal process, litigation, and/or requests from public and governmental authorities within or outside your country of residence ? for Apple to disclose your personal information. We may also disclose information about you if we determine that for purposes of national security, law enforcement, or other issues of public importance, disclosure is necessary or appropriate.



     


    James R. Clapper the Director of National Intelligence says:


     


    Quote:


    Information collected under this program is among the most important and valuable foreign intelligence information we collect, and is used to protect our nation from a wide variety of threats.


  • Reply 40 of 129
    SpamSandwichSpamSandwich Posts: 33,407member
    ericblr wrote: »
    Yes, Bush and his "Patriot act" was a disaster, but then again so was Clinton's "carnivore" email spying program.  The government has been utilizing the latest technology to spy on people for a long time.  It's not exclusive to either party.

    Obama OK'd the renewal of the Patriot Act. Everything under Bush that was bad and wrong has gotten more bad and wrong under Obama's terms.

    In fact, all of these horrible practices suggest the war against terrorists has become a war against the American people.
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