Apple reportedly latest company to join US government's PRISM data mining program [ux2]

12357

Comments

  • Reply 81 of 129
    bigpicsbigpics Posts: 1,397member


    Quote:



    Originally Posted by ericblr View Post


    Yes, Bush and his "Patriot act" was a disaster, but then again so was Clinton's "carnivore" email spying program.  The government has been utilizing the latest technology to spy on people for a long time.  It's not exclusive to either party.



     



    Quote:

    Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post



    This is the NSA. We've been running surveillance on supercomputers and prior to that mainframes ever since they were invented.



    ......



    Furthermore, this is standard practice since the 1950s. We've just gotten better technology to do it today.


     

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by AppleZilla View Post


     


    All this started under Bush, because... you know... Freedom!





    "All this" started long before Bush, before Clinton, before the internet, before computers, before the use of electricity and before the US existed....



    ...it's a hallmark of authoritanianism throughout human history.


     


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ericblr View Post


     


    The problem isn't the politicians in office, it's the people who voted them in.



     


    Ben Franklin on what the then newly-minted Constitution had given the US: "A Republic if you can keep it."


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by rcfa View Post


     


    The problem is the two party system and the winner-take-all approach to representation, gerrymandering election district boundaries, etc.


     


    When the option is to cast a vote between bad and worse, how do you expect to get even halfway decent politicians in power?


     


    The "choice" we have is like going to a restaurant and getting the "choice" of french fries and onion rings, when what we're looking for are healthy vegetables and a fresh salad.





    Gore Vidal wrote we have the illusion of a 2 party system, but really one power party with 2 wings, Dem and GOP.  The wings truly dislike each other and have different tactical and strategic objectives, but what they agree on - and have spent over 150 years institutionalizing via arcane laws at every level of government - is that they will split the spoils and keep all other viable competitors out of the game. 



    And he was sadly right....

  • Reply 82 of 129

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Rayz View Post


    So to sum up:


     


    There'll be a lot of indignant ranting for about two more days then everyone will do precisely nothing.


     


    That's how it works, yes?



    That's because there's nothing that can be done.  You think writing to your politicians will solve this problem?  They have their fingerprints all over this.  They allowed it to happen.  They certainly aren't stepping out in front of a podium saying that they are putting all of their effort into shutting it down.  All of the major players are involved in this.  Many families stay connected through Facebook.  People share geotagged photos through various photo sites.  Apple hired an NSA analyst David Rice to head up security.  There's little one can do when the man charged with security is NSA.


     


    Janet Napolitano has stated that she doesn't even use email.  That ought to be an indicator for many people.  If you want more secure communications, you're going to have to return to snail mail.  We're all Mac users and iOS device users.  It's safe to say that we're all going to remain using these devices.  It's also safe to say that we're all going to give up every word of the 4th Amendment (Americans anyway) by consciously choosing to log on to Facebook, post images to Flickr, send and receive email, and browse the internet.  What is there to do?  Apple said they haven't even heard of PRISM, yet hired a guy from the NSA.  It's safe to say that there's nothing we can do at this point because the corporations are going to do nothing to stop it.  Doing something about it would mean not using any Apple products anymore because we can't trust Apple to maintain our privacy.  


     


    Doing something about it means severing the internet cord, and not using a cell phone.  Perhaps one tenth of one percent would do that.  The rest of us will complain and submit in silent compliance.  I, for one, admit that I'm saddened to know that Apple sold us all out.  

  • Reply 83 of 129
    SpamSandwichSpamSandwich Posts: 33,407member
    That's because there's nothing that can be done.  You think writing to your politicians will solve this problem?  They have their fingerprints all over this.  They allowed it to happen.  They certainly aren't stepping out in front of a podium saying that they are putting all of their effort into shutting it down.  All of the major players are involved in this.  Many families stay connected through Facebook.  People share geotagged photos through various photo sites.  Apple hired an NSA analyst David Rice to head up security.  There's little one can do when the man charged with security is NSA.

    Janet Napolitano has stated that she doesn't even use email.  That ought to be an indicator for many people.  If you want more secure communications, you're going to have to return to snail mail.  We're all Mac users and iOS device users.  It's safe to say that we're all going to remain using these devices.  It's also safe to say that we're all going to give up every word of the 4th Amendment (Americans anyway) by consciously choosing to log on to Facebook, post images to Flickr, send and receive email, and browse the internet.  What is there to do?  Apple said they haven't even heard of PRISM, yet hired a guy from the NSA.  It's safe to say that there's nothing we can do at this point because the corporations are going to do nothing to stop it.  Doing something about it would mean not using any Apple products anymore because we can't trust Apple to maintain our privacy.  

    Doing something about it means severing the internet cord, and not using a cell phone.  Perhaps one tenth of one percent would do that.  The rest of us will complain and submit in silent compliance.  I, for one, admit that I'm saddened to know that Apple sold us all out.  

    I'll keep repeating my response... Even acknowledgement of orders from the government to cooperate on these matters is ILLEGAL and an instant IMPRISONABLE OFFENSE. That is the law as written. Don't believe it? Look it up for yourself. Read the entire Patriot Act.
  • Reply 84 of 129

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post





    I'll keep repeating my response... Even acknowledgement of orders from the government to cooperate on these matters is ILLEGAL and an instant IMPRISONABLE OFFENSE. That is the law as written. Don't believe it? Look it up for yourself. Read the entire Patriot Act.


     


    SpamSandwich, I don't need to be shouted at about the Patriot Act.  I am well aware that there's a gag order on everyone at the top.  You're isn't an answer.  It's an excuse.  Apple chose to comply.  They could have said no.  They could have said that what the NSA was asking violated the Constitution and therefore is not a legal order.  They could have done all that, but they didn't.  They hired an NSA agent for "security" and sold us all out rather than standing up and telling them no.  That's what upsets me.  Keep repeating your response all you want.  Apple could have told them to go fsck themselves, and should have.  Now it all comes down to whether we as users choose to knowingly have every action we take, every search we make, every comment we text, and every word we type sent to the NSA, or we abandon technology all together because we can't trust any of the corporations with privacy.  Sooner or later, everyone does something "wrong".  Sooner or later, everyone is guilty of something.  


     


    And we might as well be open and honest here.  The NSA and go fsck itself.  Come and get me if you fear I won't "fall in line".  The good news for you folks at the NSA is that Apple already streamed you my Address Book from iCloud.  It ought to be fairly simple to find me at home or at work.  

  • Reply 85 of 129
    japm wrote: »
    This has destroyed every bid of trust that I ever had in Apple.

    Correction: This has destroyed every bit of trust that you never had in Apple.
  • Reply 86 of 129
    japmjapm Posts: 36member


    Suddenly Newton:


    Really?


    I don't think I would be an exclusive Apple user for almost 15 years if I didn't trust Apple.


    I don't think I would have an Apple Airport connected to a Mac Pro connected to an iPhone sometimes connected to a Macbook Pro, if I had no trust in Apple.


     


    This thing was and is just NOT ok period.

  • Reply 87 of 129
    umrk_labumrk_lab Posts: 550member


    What else would you expect from a PowerPoint presentation ? Horrible things, that's all  ...

  • Reply 88 of 129


    Don't think Apple is being sleazy or even wanting to lie. I'm sure they're threatened with imprisonment if they don't for leaking Top Secret Information.

  • Reply 89 of 129
    tallest skiltallest skil Posts: 43,388member


    Originally Posted by japm View Post

    I don't think I would be an exclusive Apple user for almost 15 years if I didn't trust Apple.


    I don't think I would have an Apple Airport connected to a Mac Pro connected to an iPhone sometimes connected to a Macbook Pro, if I had no trust in Apple.



     


    Rules #4 & 5.

  • Reply 90 of 129


    [DELETED]

  • Reply 91 of 129
    mac_dogmac_dog Posts: 1,072member


    such a fucking shame.

  • Reply 92 of 129

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by dreyfus2 View Post


    Hm, something is fishy here...


     


    If you look at another slide shown here: http://allthingsd.com/20130606/google-and-apple-outright-deny-theyre-helping-the-nsa-mine-data/ you find a remark at the bottom of the page: "Complete list and details on PRISM web page: GO PRISMFAA".


     


    If you check the faa.gov page, you find the home of prism: http://www.dot.gov/individuals/privacy/pia-prism


     


    Something that has absolutely nothing to do with what is reported by the Post or the Guardian, but still is mentioned on the slides they have published. Sounds like they had some delusional deep throat at work here.


     


    P.S.: The "Program Cost of $20M per year" is another clear indicator that this is likely BS. Mining this amount of data at this cost is pretty much impossible.



     


     


    Different PRISM:





    "PRISM collects information in order to fulfill basic accounting functions relating to the requisition of [FAA] goods or services. The PRISM system collects [personally identifiable information] only when an individual requires an accounting relationship with FAA."


     

  • Reply 93 of 129
    rayzrayz Posts: 814member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Brian Green View Post


     


    SpamSandwich, I don't need to be shouted at about the Patriot Act.  I am well aware that there's a gag order on everyone at the top.  You're isn't an answer.  It's an excuse.  Apple chose to comply.  They could have said no.  They could have said that what the NSA was asking violated the Constitution and therefore is not a legal order.  They could have done all that, but they didn't.  They hired an NSA agent for "security" and sold us all out rather than standing up and telling them no.  That's what upsets me.  Keep repeating your response all you want.  Apple could have told them to go fsck themselves, and should have.  Now it all comes down to whether we as users choose to knowingly have every action we take, every search we make, every comment we text, and every word we type sent to the NSA, or we abandon technology all together because we can't trust any of the corporations with privacy.  Sooner or later, everyone does something "wrong".  Sooner or later, everyone is guilty of something.  


     


    And we might as well be open and honest here.  The NSA and go fsck itself.  Come and get me if you fear I won't "fall in line".  The good news for you folks at the NSA is that Apple already streamed you my Address Book from iCloud.  It ought to be fairly simple to find me at home or at work.  



     


    If they have to comply by law, then how are they supposed to tell the NSA to go f*ck themselves? So as the feds are carting Tim Cook off to jail, how many of the righteously indignant here would lie down in front of the prison bus? Not many. So unless you're prepared to make a stand yourself then don't expect others to break the law for you.


     


    This has happened because more than anyone else (Google, Apple, Microsoft) the government knows how people work. The people will  get on their high horses and make a big racket on line...until their iphone rings.


     


    At the end of the day, no one cares enough to do anything, so they just rant at Apple and Google and Microsoft without even thinking about taking action themselves. I bet most people here won't even write a letter.


     


    That's all the government has to contend with, and that's why they've got nothing to worry about.

  • Reply 94 of 129
    satcomersatcomer Posts: 130member


    A moment of silence for the Fourth Amendment now please.

  • Reply 95 of 129
    rayzrayz Posts: 814member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by japm View Post


    This is a Law/Government issue, but I'm just so extremely disappointed that Apple so blatantly lied about this, exactly like Verizon did back in 2006.


    They could have just said, no comment - but they made an explicit untrue statement to avoid bad PR.


     


    This has destroyed every bid of trust that I ever had in Apple.


     


    Doing it voluntarily is one thing, but then lying about it is another.



     


    You know that no one believes the 'outraged Apple user' shtick, right? 

  • Reply 97 of 129
    jfc1138jfc1138 Posts: 3,090member


    "Apple lied"?


     


    Except Apple clearly stated they "comply with the law" (which law would be the Protect America Act of 2007 demanded to be enacted by then minority leader John Boehner), what they ARE denying is the Washington Post's and Guardian's assertion they have allowed a government agency direct access to their servers, which both those articles state as fact. That verysame denial is repeated by pretty much every provider named.


     


    An article on the 2007 act when it originally passed and was signed into law by then-President Bush:


    "


    Congress approves sweeping surveillance powers


    This week, Congress approved legislation significantly broadening the …


    by Timothy B. Lee - Aug 6 2007, 2:57pm EDT







    The House, in a rush to get out of town and fearful of being branded as soft on terrorism, approved legislation on Saturday that gives the Bush administration new authority to engage in warrantless surveillance. The Senate approved the legislation on Friday.


    The White House began a full-court press for the legislation last week after the secret court charged with reviewing foreign surveillance reportedly limited eavesdropping on communications between two foreign parties that pass through the United States. The White House and House Minority Leader John Boehner charged that Congress would be putting Americans in danger if it didn't pass legislation overruling the decision before the August recess.


    But the hastily-enacted legislation, dubbed the Protect America Act, does more than permit the interception of foreign-to-foreign communications. It permits warrantless surveillance "directed at a person reasonably believed to be located outside of the United States." There is no language specifically restricting surveillance activities to communications originating outside of the United States...."


     


    http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2007/08/congress-approves-sweeping-survellance-powers/


  • Reply 98 of 129
    rcfarcfa Posts: 1,124member


    The amazing thing is this: both iOS (after quite some time) and OS X' e-mail allow for S/MIME encrypted e-mail, which would make things quite a bit more difficult, at least in the e-mail department. But of course, just about everyone's too lazy to set it up (must use self-signed certs if one is to trust it, because the certificat authorities likely have to hand over private keys to the NSA, too.) Heck, most mailing lists strip away the public key attachment, etc.


     


    Of course, with non-jailbroken iPhones one has to wonder if the NSA has direct access to the phone rather than to Apple's servers, and even on jail-broken phones it might be difficult to make out what various parts of the OS do.


     


    And then there's the "back to my mac" feature: an IPv6 VPN that is negotiated through Apple's servers, which means they could also a negotiate system access to any other authority, so again, back to my Mac could be used by the NSA to access users' machines directly.


     


    Find my Mac and Find my iPhone, etc. can be used to track devices even where other means start to fail.


     


    Are we having fun yet?

  • Reply 99 of 129
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,357member
    umrk_lab wrote: »

    Ah, Mr Assange does still get a few articles published. I hadn't seen one recently since his rep tooks a few hits this past year.
  • Reply 100 of 129
    rcfarcfa Posts: 1,124member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Magic_Al View Post



    A national security letter or similar, one-sided gag order is constitutionally dubious. It's an involuntary NDA, without the A (you don't agree to anything). The existence of such authority is incompatible with "Congress shall make no law... abridging freedom of speech".



    A random person or small company may be intimidated from challenging the government but Apple is big enough to litigate this.


     


    For all we know, they might have litigated this. But because it's all in secret, in secret courts, with sealed proceedings and with gag orders, you'll never know if they did or didn't. There might be a reason why they are the last ones to comply. Maybe they fought it and lost.


    Apple hardly was enthusiastic about this, otherwise they'd be among the first to partake, not one of the last ones.


     


    The Patriot Act is such an insidious piece of legislation that it can be the basis of a takeover of a military junta, and you'd not know. Remember, according to the Bush doctrine, which is happily endorsed by Obama, the government doesn't have to disclose anything if it's related to national security.


     


    If a dictator takes over, everything that would topple his regime or his scheme would of course be a threat to national security.


     


    So, in the guise of national security we already have laid the foundations of a dictatorship.


     


    If one observes the expansionists doctrines by means of which the US tries to apply and force their laws onto foreign jurisdictions, any politician claiming the US isn't "empire building" is a lying piece of scum.


     


    Remember one thing: evil government arises always there where people think they'd be immune from the danger.

Sign In or Register to comment.