I'm a software architect and also used to develop android apps in the past 2 years.
I'd like to point out a few things regarding these "mysterious" failures.
First of all, the reports are valid and affect a lot of Nexus 7 tablets and also a percentage of Galaxy Nexus devices built around 8/2012 to 11/2012.
However, this is usually not due to cheap or defective flash memory (from Samsung) but instead a bug in Samsungs flash controller firmware.
There are 2 known bugs - one actually could brick devices by overwriting protected blocks but allegedly has been addressed by Samsung - the other is frequently called "trim bug".
It begins to emerge if you fill your device up to a certain amount of free memory (roughly less than 3GB free). When the flash is low on blocks marked as "free", it starts looking for sections marked as "deleted".
The mentioned bug in their firmware causes that specific subroutine to run unusually slow and can lock up the whole device for several seconds.
Google rolled out an update for the Nexus 7 with Android 4.1.2 which doesn't fix the bug but avoids triggering it by actually removing data instead of marking it as "deleted" - so the controller is never running out of free blocks.
Unfortunately this doesn't help people already affected by the lags as afaik there's never been a "zeroing" of deleted blocks in the installation routine of the update.
Google also still hasn't included this fix in any of their Galaxy Nexus updates, which is quite questionable regarding numerous complaints in the google product forums.
I assume many devices out there and probably even Apple devices have this disfunctional controller if they are using Samsung flash built between 8/12 and 11/12.
However, this might never emerge as it's a combination of kernel fs module + flash controller firmware behaviour.
In case you have a Nexus 7 or Galaxy Nexus affected by serious performance degradation, I'd suggest the following:
1.) Buy an iPad
This is an extremely helpful post for those affected by this issue.
However, I did manage to streamline the resolution process a bit.
While the Nexus 7 examples sound far worse, my iPad 3 is notably lagging more than when I bought it. My past iPhones have got less responsive with time too.
Apple aren't immune to degrading hardware, or hardware that doesn't meet the increasing demands of the software that runs on it.
Your mileage may vary. I've got an iPad 3 and there's no lag on it at all. No problem with my older iPhones either unless I'm comparing them to my newer ones.
Very misleading thread title, and from that and the details in the article, it's easy to tell that the author is technically ignorant about Flash.
It has nothing to do with "cheap memory". Heck, Apple uses the least expensive type for their iOS devices as well.
Daywalker gave the best comment: apparently there was a bug in some software versions where the Flash Trim command was not given when files were deleted. Without that command, the Flash controller would not know which memory blocks it could do reclamation on ahead of time.
What would be nice, though, is if Google came out with either a fixit program or offered a replacement tablet.
I typically have to wipe my iPhones and iPads once or twice a year to address issues (performance, stability, etc.)
Actually, you probably don't. You might try doing a 'hard reset' instead.
With the iPad/iPhone powered on, press and hold the top power button AND the home button simultaneously. After a second or two, the "slide to power off" message will appear. Ignore it and continue holding both buttons until you see the Apple logo. You can then release the buttons and let it cycle. This triggers a hard reset. It sometimes takes a LOT longer to complete than the usual power cycle (up to a couple of minutes). This usually clears any problems related to 'stuck' memory, etc.
I haven't had to wipe my iPhone or iPad ever. But I do this 3 or 4 times a year. Whenever things get a little wonky, that usually sets it to rights.
Also, sometimes apps don't update gracefully and you end up having to first delete and then completely reinstall them. I've found that doing a hard reset after encountering one of those keeps things running smoothly.
I have to say that other than the occasional reset, these devices have been more dependable than any computing device I've ever used.
I own several google devices, and I must say- they are really deteriorating and losing their edge. I've been very unhappy with them and if they don't do something about it soon- I'm considering switching to Apple.
There- now everyone copy and paste that onto the android forums so they can get the exact same ridiculous trolling as we have to get anytime anything negative is said about Apple. And just to reiterate- android blows.
[SIZE=2]And as a small side note it is a breath of fresh air not to have to see the partial quote breakdowns and snippy comments of he who shall not be named.[/SIZE]
Scientists should conduct a study of the minds of cheapskates and figure out what leads these people to constantly make bad decisions and poor choices. Many serial killers have abnormal brains. What makes a Fandroid's brain tick, and are there any abnormalities present there also?
These cheapskates think that they're saving a buck, but their scrooge like behavior actually ends up costing them a whole lot more in the long run.
If I were a financially challenged individual, the last thing that I would buy is any kind of Android tablet. I'd rather wait a bit, save up some money, and get an awesome iPad, which I know will last me many years and will function great the whole time.
I also don't think that any Android tablet purchaser has a right to complain really, because you basically got what you paid for.
Well, hindsight is 20/20. When everyone was crowing about the Nexus7 being both cheap and good, you didn't hear any doomsaying about how it would start to fall apart in a year's time.
But yeah, from my experience, in a hypercompetitive industry like the PC sector, it really is almost always a case of "You get what you pay for".
I'm a software architect and also used to develop android apps in the past 2 years.
I'd like to point out a few things regarding these "mysterious" failures.
First of all, the reports are valid and affect a lot of Nexus 7 tablets and also a percentage of Galaxy Nexus devices built around 8/2012 to 11/2012.
However, this is usually not due to cheap or defective flash memory (from Samsung) but instead a bug in Samsungs flash controller firmware.
There are 2 known bugs - one actually could brick devices by overwriting protected blocks but allegedly has been addressed by Samsung - the other is frequently called "trim bug".
It begins to emerge if you fill your device up to a certain amount of free memory (roughly less than 3GB free). When the flash is low on blocks marked as "free", it starts looking for sections marked as "deleted".
The mentioned bug in their firmware causes that specific subroutine to run unusually slow and can lock up the whole device for several seconds.
Google rolled out an update for the Nexus 7 with Android 4.1.2 which doesn't fix the bug but avoids triggering it by actually removing data instead of marking it as "deleted" - so the controller is never running out of free blocks.
Unfortunately this doesn't help people already affected by the lags as afaik there's never been a "zeroing" of deleted blocks in the installation routine of the update.
Google also still hasn't included this fix in any of their Galaxy Nexus updates, which is quite questionable regarding numerous complaints in the google product forums.
I assume many devices out there and probably even Apple devices have this disfunctional controller if they are using Samsung flash built between 8/12 and 11/12.
However, this might never emerge as it's a combination of kernel fs module + flash controller firmware behaviour.
In case you have a Nexus 7 or Galaxy Nexus affected by serious performance degradation, I'd suggest the following:
1.) Verify the issue
Download AndroBench and run it, if your "Random Write Speed" is below 0,20mb/s, you're probably affected.
2a.) Resolve the issue on a Nexus 7
Make sure you are on Android 4.2.2.
Wiping does not help, instead fill your device completly with data and afterwards remove it again to "free" the flash blocks.
After a reboot the performance (AndroBench) should show better "Random Write Speeds".
2b.) Resolve the issue on a Galaxy Nexus
No easy solution known, but this is known to work well (I have 2 GNex, one affected and this suggestion did the trick):
thanks, Newguy. sounds like you know what you are talking about.
but the hard truth remains: this much-hyped Android "reference" tablet has turned out to be a total piece of sh*t. due to those fundamental engineering flaws in this one absolutely crucial aspect - performance! how many consumers will be able to navigate this complex "fix"? damn few.
so where is the web pundit weeping and wailing about it? were it Apple, a hundred websites would be virtually foaming at the mouth today.
Funny, I bought a Nexus 7 the first week they came out and had nothing but lightning quick performance from it until today. Tonight the response was abysmal. Then I realized it was off. After turning it on it was again amazingly fast.
As quoted from Jobs above, "The proof will be in the pricing of our competitors' products, which will offer less". He was right. I get far less fighting between the kids since I bought three of these for the price of one iPad.
Now to go down to my shop where there is no WiFi and plug up my thumb drive full of music and service manuals for the motorcycles. (Yes, a thumb drive plugged into a tablet. It is possible and practical...)
Funny, I bought a Nexus 7 the first week they came out and had nothing but lightning quick performance from it until today. Tonight the response was abysmal. Then I realized it was off. After turning it on it was again amazingly fast.
As quoted from Jobs above, "The proof will be in the pricing of our competitors' products, which will offer less for more.". He was right. I get far less fighting between the kids since I bought three of these for the price of one iPad.
Now to go down to my shop where there is no WiFi and plug up my thumb drive full of music and service manuals for the motorcycles. (Yes, a thumb drive plugged into a tablet. It is possible and practical...)
how much you get paid for this post, Mr. Astroturf?
Loved this article. Basically a well deserved pat on the back for Apple, and clearly pointing out once again that Apple produces quality, not gimmickry. Also implicit in the comparison is the lack of integrity of google and asus pushing out a cheaply made product, knowingly putting in inferior software and hardware. Also good to know that Apple continues to be forward thinking in their purchase of Anobit over a year ago, partly in order to tackle the same issues that are facing the nexus.
Addendum: The trolls' attempts to portray an equivalence in the reliability of the iPad vs the nexus are pretty funny.
Well, hindsight is 20/20. When everyone was crowing about the Nexus7 being both cheap and good, you didn't hear any doomsaying about how it would start to fall apart in a year's time.
But yeah, from my experience, in a hypercompetitive industry like the PC sector, it really is almost always a case of "You get what you pay for".
My future vision must be close to 20/20, because I've been saying nothing but bad things about Android tablets since day one.
I totally knew that was going to happen XD its the same as buying a laptop XD
Good internals and crapy enclosure that doesn't last for more than a year, thats the only reason i am into apple.... well theres lets more but thats the main one
No doubt some percentage of users have problems with their Nexus 7. I doubt its made up. But just as some here are quick to point out that a few thousand complaints about WiFi on an Apple device hardly makes the problem widespread, a hundred reports of Nexus 7 problems doesn't mean most.
Mine gets daily use as a rule and does just fine for its intended purpose. News, magazines, e-mail, and things like dictating this post
I think this one of the poorest attempts at deflection I've ever read on this forum.
:no:
Usually you structure your posts so that you try to come across as unbiased. You didn't even make the effort here.
Yes it did and if he had read the article he is commenting on he would know smog of the quotes are from Android sites. I know a die hard Android user who has always praised his Nexus 7 to the skies and when I sent him this article he said it is happening to him too.
In addition to the trim bug mentioned in the article in my experience with Android it has a lot to do with how much stuff is installed on the device. Android phones and tablets often have difficulty when you fill up the capacity near to the maximum with a lot of apps.
Google does have it easy though. Android 4.2 JB was heavily infested with bugs and gave me all sorts of headaches when I moved up from 4.1 and I wasn't the only one. However nobody complained in the tech media and blogs about it even though the bugginess of 4.2 gave me so much more troubles than the supposed failure of Apple Maps ever did.
@trumptman if your nexus 7 has been rooted (which is very easy to do since its a nexus) you can do a FULL, and i mean FULL backup of the tablet. Apps, data, sign-ins, game data, calendar - everything. Its like a complete snapshot in time. Its called a nandroid backup, if you're interested.
Regarding lag. Yes i have experienced this. This was mainly due to android 4.2.1 not being optimised well for the nexus 7. Android 4.2.2 runs much better. However, when storage space is low - for the 16gb model only - the flash memory is MUCH slower. There is a fix though, that trims the flash storage (similar to ssd's). Here's a link to the app: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.grilledmonkey.lagfix&hl=en
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by daywalker
Hi,
I'm a software architect and also used to develop android apps in the past 2 years.
I'd like to point out a few things regarding these "mysterious" failures.
First of all, the reports are valid and affect a lot of Nexus 7 tablets and also a percentage of Galaxy Nexus devices built around 8/2012 to 11/2012.
However, this is usually not due to cheap or defective flash memory (from Samsung) but instead a bug in Samsungs flash controller firmware.
There are 2 known bugs - one actually could brick devices by overwriting protected blocks but allegedly has been addressed by Samsung - the other is frequently called "trim bug".
It begins to emerge if you fill your device up to a certain amount of free memory (roughly less than 3GB free). When the flash is low on blocks marked as "free", it starts looking for sections marked as "deleted".
The mentioned bug in their firmware causes that specific subroutine to run unusually slow and can lock up the whole device for several seconds.
Google rolled out an update for the Nexus 7 with Android 4.1.2 which doesn't fix the bug but avoids triggering it by actually removing data instead of marking it as "deleted" - so the controller is never running out of free blocks.
Unfortunately this doesn't help people already affected by the lags as afaik there's never been a "zeroing" of deleted blocks in the installation routine of the update.
Google also still hasn't included this fix in any of their Galaxy Nexus updates, which is quite questionable regarding numerous complaints in the google product forums.
I assume many devices out there and probably even Apple devices have this disfunctional controller if they are using Samsung flash built between 8/12 and 11/12.
However, this might never emerge as it's a combination of kernel fs module + flash controller firmware behaviour.
In case you have a Nexus 7 or Galaxy Nexus affected by serious performance degradation, I'd suggest the following:
1.) Buy an iPad
This is an extremely helpful post for those affected by this issue.
However, I did manage to streamline the resolution process a bit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crowley
While the Nexus 7 examples sound far worse, my iPad 3 is notably lagging more than when I bought it. My past iPhones have got less responsive with time too.
Apple aren't immune to degrading hardware, or hardware that doesn't meet the increasing demands of the software that runs on it.
Your mileage may vary. I've got an iPad 3 and there's no lag on it at all. No problem with my older iPhones either unless I'm comparing them to my newer ones.
Very misleading thread title, and from that and the details in the article, it's easy to tell that the author is technically ignorant about Flash.
It has nothing to do with "cheap memory". Heck, Apple uses the least expensive type for their iOS devices as well.
Daywalker gave the best comment: apparently there was a bug in some software versions where the Flash Trim command was not given when files were deleted. Without that command, the Flash controller would not know which memory blocks it could do reclamation on ahead of time.
What would be nice, though, is if Google came out with either a fixit program or offered a replacement tablet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Negafox
I typically have to wipe my iPhones and iPads once or twice a year to address issues (performance, stability, etc.)
Actually, you probably don't. You might try doing a 'hard reset' instead.
With the iPad/iPhone powered on, press and hold the top power button AND the home button simultaneously. After a second or two, the "slide to power off" message will appear. Ignore it and continue holding both buttons until you see the Apple logo. You can then release the buttons and let it cycle. This triggers a hard reset. It sometimes takes a LOT longer to complete than the usual power cycle (up to a couple of minutes). This usually clears any problems related to 'stuck' memory, etc.
I haven't had to wipe my iPhone or iPad ever. But I do this 3 or 4 times a year. Whenever things get a little wonky, that usually sets it to rights.
Also, sometimes apps don't update gracefully and you end up having to first delete and then completely reinstall them. I've found that doing a hard reset after encountering one of those keeps things running smoothly.
I have to say that other than the occasional reset, these devices have been more dependable than any computing device I've ever used.
Ignore and perhaps he'll look for employment.
^^^ This. Sounds like Tallest Skil has some new fans...
There- now everyone copy and paste that onto the android forums so they can get the exact same ridiculous trolling as we have to get anytime anything negative is said about Apple.
And just to reiterate- android blows.
[SIZE=2]And as a small side note it is a breath of fresh air not to have to see the partial quote breakdowns and snippy comments of he who shall not be named.[/SIZE]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][
Scientists should conduct a study of the minds of cheapskates and figure out what leads these people to constantly make bad decisions and poor choices. Many serial killers have abnormal brains. What makes a Fandroid's brain tick, and are there any abnormalities present there also?
These cheapskates think that they're saving a buck, but their scrooge like behavior actually ends up costing them a whole lot more in the long run.
If I were a financially challenged individual, the last thing that I would buy is any kind of Android tablet. I'd rather wait a bit, save up some money, and get an awesome iPad, which I know will last me many years and will function great the whole time.
I also don't think that any Android tablet purchaser has a right to complain really, because you basically got what you paid for.
Well, hindsight is 20/20. When everyone was crowing about the Nexus7 being both cheap and good, you didn't hear any doomsaying about how it would start to fall apart in a year's time.
But yeah, from my experience, in a hypercompetitive industry like the PC sector, it really is almost always a case of "You get what you pay for".
This is why Apple doesn't make a $199 tablet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by daywalker
Hi,
I'm a software architect and also used to develop android apps in the past 2 years.
I'd like to point out a few things regarding these "mysterious" failures.
First of all, the reports are valid and affect a lot of Nexus 7 tablets and also a percentage of Galaxy Nexus devices built around 8/2012 to 11/2012.
However, this is usually not due to cheap or defective flash memory (from Samsung) but instead a bug in Samsungs flash controller firmware.
There are 2 known bugs - one actually could brick devices by overwriting protected blocks but allegedly has been addressed by Samsung - the other is frequently called "trim bug".
It begins to emerge if you fill your device up to a certain amount of free memory (roughly less than 3GB free). When the flash is low on blocks marked as "free", it starts looking for sections marked as "deleted".
The mentioned bug in their firmware causes that specific subroutine to run unusually slow and can lock up the whole device for several seconds.
Google rolled out an update for the Nexus 7 with Android 4.1.2 which doesn't fix the bug but avoids triggering it by actually removing data instead of marking it as "deleted" - so the controller is never running out of free blocks.
Unfortunately this doesn't help people already affected by the lags as afaik there's never been a "zeroing" of deleted blocks in the installation routine of the update.
Google also still hasn't included this fix in any of their Galaxy Nexus updates, which is quite questionable regarding numerous complaints in the google product forums.
I assume many devices out there and probably even Apple devices have this disfunctional controller if they are using Samsung flash built between 8/12 and 11/12.
However, this might never emerge as it's a combination of kernel fs module + flash controller firmware behaviour.
In case you have a Nexus 7 or Galaxy Nexus affected by serious performance degradation, I'd suggest the following:
1.) Verify the issue
Download AndroBench and run it, if your "Random Write Speed" is below 0,20mb/s, you're probably affected.
2a.) Resolve the issue on a Nexus 7
Make sure you are on Android 4.2.2.
Wiping does not help, instead fill your device completly with data and afterwards remove it again to "free" the flash blocks.
After a reboot the performance (AndroBench) should show better "Random Write Speeds".
2b.) Resolve the issue on a Galaxy Nexus
No easy solution known, but this is known to work well (I have 2 GNex, one affected and this suggestion did the trick):
https://code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=41061#c40
If this didn't help, please check if userdata is mounted with the "discard" option.
To do so, install and start "Terminal Emulator", type "mount" and press enter.
If the line with /data doesn't have "discard" appended in the options, Google probably screwed up their fix by missing some device serials affected.
In that case, this solution also works on Nexus 7: https://code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=41061#c40
[Source #1: https://code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=39154]
[Source #2: https://code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=41061]
[Statement from Google employee on the Nexus 7 issue: https://productforums.google.com/forum/#!searchin/mobile/slow$20nexus/mobile/loqbCbKVMWE/5rC-GykZo0YJ]
thanks, Newguy. sounds like you know what you are talking about.
but the hard truth remains: this much-hyped Android "reference" tablet has turned out to be a total piece of sh*t. due to those fundamental engineering flaws in this one absolutely crucial aspect - performance! how many consumers will be able to navigate this complex "fix"? damn few.
so where is the web pundit weeping and wailing about it? were it Apple, a hundred websites would be virtually foaming at the mouth today.
As quoted from Jobs above, "The proof will be in the pricing of our competitors' products, which will offer less". He was right. I get far less fighting between the kids since I bought three of these for the price of one iPad.
Now to go down to my shop where there is no WiFi and plug up my thumb drive full of music and service manuals for the motorcycles. (Yes, a thumb drive plugged into a tablet. It is possible and practical...)
Quote:
Originally Posted by KDarling
What would be nice, though, is if Google came out with either a fixit program or offered a replacement tablet.
Buy another unit!
It'll increases their units shipped figures.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Informed
Funny, I bought a Nexus 7 the first week they came out and had nothing but lightning quick performance from it until today. Tonight the response was abysmal. Then I realized it was off. After turning it on it was again amazingly fast.
As quoted from Jobs above, "The proof will be in the pricing of our competitors' products, which will offer less for more.". He was right. I get far less fighting between the kids since I bought three of these for the price of one iPad.
Now to go down to my shop where there is no WiFi and plug up my thumb drive full of music and service manuals for the motorcycles. (Yes, a thumb drive plugged into a tablet. It is possible and practical...)
how much you get paid for this post, Mr. Astroturf?
Loved this article. Basically a well deserved pat on the back for Apple, and clearly pointing out once again that Apple produces quality, not gimmickry. Also implicit in the comparison is the lack of integrity of google and asus pushing out a cheaply made product, knowingly putting in inferior software and hardware. Also good to know that Apple continues to be forward thinking in their purchase of Anobit over a year ago, partly in order to tackle the same issues that are facing the nexus.
Addendum: The trolls' attempts to portray an equivalence in the reliability of the iPad vs the nexus are pretty funny.
Quote:
Originally Posted by abazigal
Well, hindsight is 20/20. When everyone was crowing about the Nexus7 being both cheap and good, you didn't hear any doomsaying about how it would start to fall apart in a year's time.
But yeah, from my experience, in a hypercompetitive industry like the PC sector, it really is almost always a case of "You get what you pay for".
My future vision must be close to 20/20, because I've been saying nothing but bad things about Android tablets since day one.
Good internals and crapy enclosure that doesn't last for more than a year, thats the only reason i am into apple.... well theres lets more
I think this one of the poorest attempts at deflection I've ever read on this forum.
:no:
Usually you structure your posts so that you try to come across as unbiased. You didn't even make the effort here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Smith2
Yes it did and if he had read the article he is commenting on he would know smog of the quotes are from Android sites. I know a die hard Android user who has always praised his Nexus 7 to the skies and when I sent him this article he said it is happening to him too.
In addition to the trim bug mentioned in the article in my experience with Android it has a lot to do with how much stuff is installed on the device. Android phones and tablets often have difficulty when you fill up the capacity near to the maximum with a lot of apps.
Google does have it easy though. Android 4.2 JB was heavily infested with bugs and gave me all sorts of headaches when I moved up from 4.1 and I wasn't the only one. However nobody complained in the tech media and blogs about it even though the bugginess of 4.2 gave me so much more troubles than the supposed failure of Apple Maps ever did.
if your nexus 7 has been rooted (which is very easy to do since its a nexus)
you can do a FULL, and i mean FULL backup of the tablet. Apps, data, sign-ins, game data, calendar - everything. Its like a complete snapshot in time. Its called a nandroid backup, if you're interested.
Regarding lag. Yes i have experienced this. This was mainly due to android 4.2.1 not being optimised well for the nexus 7. Android 4.2.2 runs much better. However, when storage space is low - for the 16gb model only - the flash memory is MUCH slower. There is a fix though, that trims the flash storage (similar to ssd's). Here's a link to the app: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.grilledmonkey.lagfix&hl=en
Regards, jeff