I still wonder why Apple just doesn't create their own foundry rather than drop billions on others to scale up.
Process technology and expertise is very proprietary. It's not like Apple can just build a new factory for chips, they need the processes used to create those chips which are not standardised.
Effectively, the only way Apple will have foundries of its own that are at the current state of the art is to buy an existing company with foundries. Global Foundries, TSMC or a manufacturer like Intel would be a way to buy their way into this business.
Personally, I think given intel's decline, and that Macs use intel CPUS that Apple maybe should buy intel. The problem with that is that intel has more employees than Apple does (I believe) which means integration may be problematic. (Intel has a very different culture.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by cnocbui
Anyone who thinks Apple knows more about making cutting edge processors and SOC's than Samsung really is living in La-La land.
Apple has designed their own cores, hand laid out for maximum efficiency. I know samsung is a licensee of ARM but I don't know that they have designed their own cores.
It's silly to act as if designing chips is something Apple can't do. It's one of Apple's competitive advantages.
Apple has been designing chips longer than samsung has (Apple started in the 1980s.)
I wonder how much longer Apple will design their own phone/tablet chips? They don't design their own laptop/desktop chips. They seem to go their own way when what's in the market isn't good enough for the products they want to build. If Intel gets their act together in the phone/tablet space I wouldn't be surprised to see Apple discontinue the A-chips.
Apple has already invested a lot of time and money in building their own CPU design team. Both companies Apple purchased were extremely capable in designing highly efficient chips. They've spent two years working on the design of the CPU cores in the A6, the A7 design is probably being tapped out as we speak, the A8 design is probably nearly finished and ready for testing by this Fall. And I'm sure the A9 design is on the drawing board. Of course, this is if they plan to stick to a yearly refresh cycle.
Intel is like Microsoft, they can't let go of their pet dinosaurs, so they keep trying to teach them new tricks. Eventually the pet might learn it, but it takes a long time and it is the thing that lets established players fall behind.
They haven't, for the very simple reason they don't need to. Anyone who thinks Apple knows more about making cutting edge processors and SOC's than Samsung really is living in La-La land.
Samsung turned to a company to make more efficient SoCs, that company, Intrinsity, was bought buy Apple. They also bought a company called P.A. Semi that designed custom PowerPC cores for high-tolerancy (used in guidance missiles) and were highly efficient.
The original ARM CPU (Advanced RISC Machine) was designed in the late 80's by a group of engineers from Apple, Acorn and VLSI specifically for the mobile market.
So yeah, since Samsung has yet to actually design their own custom cores... I'd say Apple does know more.
Samsung does seem to be getting away with copying a lot from Apple in overall appearance and function in general and Samsung does make Apple A series ARM based chips but Samsung doesn't make a chip that competes with Apple A series chips. The Apple A series ARM based chips are extremely and highly customized and optimized chips design by Apple for Apple products only and even Samsung isn't stupid enough to even try to copy Apple at the chip level. Intel, GF (AMD) or TSMC would not be able to copy Apple's A series chip designs either without getting into massive lawsuits that Apple would easily win.
I was not implying that Samsung traced the Ax chip for their own chips, however, you don't know what you don't know until someone shows you. So if Apple is designing chips with cutting edge design, then Samsung (and anyone else) can use the same principles in their chips. They will still be able to do that with TSMC, however, instead of having first knowledge, they will be 1-2 years behind. This was my overall concept for the post; if Apple can get 1-2 years ahead in technology and stay there, eventually competition will wither. If Apple was able to take the iPhone to such a level when all the copies where introduced, they probably would never have gotten a foothold. But when they [the competition] had simple features such as cut and paste and Apple did not, that enabled them to stay in the market.
I know it's a stupid question, but why not Intel, AMD, or some other US company?
It is not a stupid question. The answer is likely that Intel and/or AMD is not able or willing to make chips per Apple's specifications (e.g. act as a foundry).
I know it's a stupid question, but why not Intel, AMD, or some other US company?
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBell
It is not a stupid question. The answer is likely that Intel and/or AMD is not able or willing to make chips per Apple's specifications (e.g. act as a foundry).
AMD is now a fabless company. So it is not an option.
As for Intel, they are trying hard to compete against ARM. So they might not seem an intuitive choice. But both the past and present CEOs of Intel have stated they'd consider doing this for Apple. Who knows what kind of discussions are taking place? Furthermore, Intel cannot just make this happen overnight.
Getting Intel to manufacturing ARM chips may create a soap opera as complicated or more complicated than Apple-Samsung. Would ARM Holdings object? Do they have a say?
Even if AMD still had its own foundries, a relationship between Apple and AMD would be interesting, given that Mark Papermaster is now the CTO there.
Every company in this field is related to every other one.
I was not implying that Samsung traced the Ax chip for their own chips, however, you don't know what you don't know until someone shows you. So if Apple is designing chips with cutting edge design, then Samsung (and anyone else) can use the same principles in their chips. They will still be able to do that with TSMC, however, instead of having first knowledge, they will be 1-2 years behind. This was my overall concept for the post; if Apple can get 1-2 years ahead in technology and stay there, eventually competition will wither. If Apple was able to take the iPhone to such a level when all the copies where introduced, they probably would never have gotten a foothold. But when they [the competition] had simple features such as cut and paste and Apple did not, that enabled them to stay in the market.
I'd say it was more the lack of being on other carriers that hurt Apple. And they still aren't available on nearly as many carriers in nearly as many markets as Samsung.
FYI: The 20nm 14nmFinFET comes from a joint relationship TSMC and GloFo started with Samsung later joining in on.
The big cheese in this trio is GloFo, not TSMC regarding the Research.
With TSMC first, I predict Apple will add Global Foundries Malta plant when it's 400mm wafers start churning out meeting their maximum yield before the end of this year, while they add Malta 8.1 and the latest Malta 8.2 Chip Fab--an additional $15 billion investment.
People in 18 months GloFo in New York will have over $25 billion invested and 3 fabs running full steam ahead for AMD, Apple, and hundreds of other clients.
The top two fastest growing fab companies, globally, are TSMC and Global Foundries.
You can bank on Apple working with AMD FirePro that those GPGPUs are going to come out of Malta with the 20nm 14nmFinFET GCN 2.0 architecture Hawaii based cards.
Samsung has already taped out 14nm and 20nm devices in 2012 and will have them in production This year, not 2015
You are but one of many people on AI who claim Apple should move their chip manufacture away from Samsung to stop them copying Apple's technology.
Can anyone point to any chip level tech Samsung has copied from Apple?
They haven't, for the very simple reason they don't need to. Anyone who thinks Apple knows more about making cutting edge processors and SOC's than Samsung really is living in La-La land.
That is not true. You obviously aren't one of the happy customers who bought a Macbook Pro Retina with an LG screen in it.
Global Foundries also has taped out their 20/14. It was announced 3 or so weeks ago.
I hope this relationship works out through 2015. I'm heavily invested in TSM right now. Most of my play money is mixed between their common stock and stock options.
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin Huber
I still wonder why Apple just doesn't create their own foundry rather than drop billions on others to scale up.
Process technology and expertise is very proprietary. It's not like Apple can just build a new factory for chips, they need the processes used to create those chips which are not standardised.
Effectively, the only way Apple will have foundries of its own that are at the current state of the art is to buy an existing company with foundries. Global Foundries, TSMC or a manufacturer like Intel would be a way to buy their way into this business.
Personally, I think given intel's decline, and that Macs use intel CPUS that Apple maybe should buy intel. The problem with that is that intel has more employees than Apple does (I believe) which means integration may be problematic. (Intel has a very different culture.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by cnocbui
Anyone who thinks Apple knows more about making cutting edge processors and SOC's than Samsung really is living in La-La land.
Apple has designed their own cores, hand laid out for maximum efficiency. I know samsung is a licensee of ARM but I don't know that they have designed their own cores.
It's silly to act as if designing chips is something Apple can't do. It's one of Apple's competitive advantages.
Apple has been designing chips longer than samsung has (Apple started in the 1980s.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii
I wonder how much longer Apple will design their own phone/tablet chips? They don't design their own laptop/desktop chips. They seem to go their own way when what's in the market isn't good enough for the products they want to build. If Intel gets their act together in the phone/tablet space I wouldn't be surprised to see Apple discontinue the A-chips.
Apple has already invested a lot of time and money in building their own CPU design team. Both companies Apple purchased were extremely capable in designing highly efficient chips. They've spent two years working on the design of the CPU cores in the A6, the A7 design is probably being tapped out as we speak, the A8 design is probably nearly finished and ready for testing by this Fall. And I'm sure the A9 design is on the drawing board. Of course, this is if they plan to stick to a yearly refresh cycle.
Intel is like Microsoft, they can't let go of their pet dinosaurs, so they keep trying to teach them new tricks. Eventually the pet might learn it, but it takes a long time and it is the thing that lets established players fall behind.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cnocbui
They haven't, for the very simple reason they don't need to. Anyone who thinks Apple knows more about making cutting edge processors and SOC's than Samsung really is living in La-La land.
Samsung turned to a company to make more efficient SoCs, that company, Intrinsity, was bought buy Apple. They also bought a company called P.A. Semi that designed custom PowerPC cores for high-tolerancy (used in guidance missiles) and were highly efficient.
The original ARM CPU (Advanced RISC Machine) was designed in the late 80's by a group of engineers from Apple, Acorn and VLSI specifically for the mobile market.
So yeah, since Samsung has yet to actually design their own custom cores... I'd say Apple does know more.
Manufacturing on the other hand, not so much.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Realistic
Samsung does seem to be getting away with copying a lot from Apple in overall appearance and function in general and Samsung does make Apple A series ARM based chips but Samsung doesn't make a chip that competes with Apple A series chips. The Apple A series ARM based chips are extremely and highly customized and optimized chips design by Apple for Apple products only and even Samsung isn't stupid enough to even try to copy Apple at the chip level. Intel, GF (AMD) or TSMC would not be able to copy Apple's A series chip designs either without getting into massive lawsuits that Apple would easily win.
I was not implying that Samsung traced the Ax chip for their own chips, however, you don't know what you don't know until someone shows you. So if Apple is designing chips with cutting edge design, then Samsung (and anyone else) can use the same principles in their chips. They will still be able to do that with TSMC, however, instead of having first knowledge, they will be 1-2 years behind. This was my overall concept for the post; if Apple can get 1-2 years ahead in technology and stay there, eventually competition will wither. If Apple was able to take the iPhone to such a level when all the copies where introduced, they probably would never have gotten a foothold. But when they [the competition] had simple features such as cut and paste and Apple did not, that enabled them to stay in the market.
Sounds very advantageous to Apple's cost control.
Will be interesting to see if Apple continues to make clever use of those old ARM cores.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin Huber
I know it's a stupid question, but why not Intel, AMD, or some other US company?
It is not a stupid question. The answer is likely that Intel and/or AMD is not able or willing to make chips per Apple's specifications (e.g. act as a foundry).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin Huber
I know it's a stupid question, but why not Intel, AMD, or some other US company?
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBell
It is not a stupid question. The answer is likely that Intel and/or AMD is not able or willing to make chips per Apple's specifications (e.g. act as a foundry).
AMD is now a fabless company. So it is not an option.
As for Intel, they are trying hard to compete against ARM. So they might not seem an intuitive choice. But both the past and present CEOs of Intel have stated they'd consider doing this for Apple. Who knows what kind of discussions are taking place? Furthermore, Intel cannot just make this happen overnight.
Getting Intel to manufacturing ARM chips may create a soap opera as complicated or more complicated than Apple-Samsung. Would ARM Holdings object? Do they have a say?
Even if AMD still had its own foundries, a relationship between Apple and AMD would be interesting, given that Mark Papermaster is now the CTO there.
Every company in this field is related to every other one.
I'd say it was more the lack of being on other carriers that hurt Apple. And they still aren't available on nearly as many carriers in nearly as many markets as Samsung.
The big cheese in this trio is GloFo, not TSMC regarding the Research.
With TSMC first, I predict Apple will add Global Foundries Malta plant when it's 400mm wafers start churning out meeting their maximum yield before the end of this year, while they add Malta 8.1 and the latest Malta 8.2 Chip Fab--an additional $15 billion investment.
http://www.timesunion.com/business/article/Malta-s-Fab-new-growth-4589281.php
People in 18 months GloFo in New York will have over $25 billion invested and 3 fabs running full steam ahead for AMD, Apple, and hundreds of other clients.
The top two fastest growing fab companies, globally, are TSMC and Global Foundries.
You can bank on Apple working with AMD FirePro that those GPGPUs are going to come out of Malta with the 20nm 14nmFinFET GCN 2.0 architecture Hawaii based cards.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cnocbui
Serious?
http://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1263040
Samsung has already taped out 14nm and 20nm devices in 2012 and will have them in production This year, not 2015
You are but one of many people on AI who claim Apple should move their chip manufacture away from Samsung to stop them copying Apple's technology.
Can anyone point to any chip level tech Samsung has copied from Apple?
They haven't, for the very simple reason they don't need to. Anyone who thinks Apple knows more about making cutting edge processors and SOC's than Samsung really is living in La-La land.
That is not true. You obviously aren't one of the happy customers who bought a Macbook Pro Retina with an LG screen in it.
Global Foundries also has taped out their 20/14. It was announced 3 or so weeks ago.