Personally, I would prefer to have Apple's insides made by Samsung (if it can't be Apple/amd/intel) I know most people on here think of them as the devil, but they make solid products. The macs your using now, which we all grown to love have Samsung inside. I think the future quality of Apple products shows some signs of concern...
No one said they don't make quality products. The point it, Apple makes custom chips, having custom designs, which Intel, AMD could use in their own chips. TSMC does not manufacture their own products, so there would be no competing.
It is sad to think your partner will use your knowledge against you, but look at Samsung and Google. Both having close ties to Apple's latest technology and both using that to create competing products.
I think this is a great move. TSMC might not be making A8 processor until next year, but they may ramp up A7s just to work out the kinks while Samsung is still producing. I am also excited to see what the A8 will be as Apple will feel comfortable adding new tech that Samsung can't copy.
Personally, I would prefer to have Apple's insides made by Samsung (if it can't be Apple/amd/intel) I know most people on here think of them as the devil, but they make solid products. The macs your using now, which we all grown to love have Samsung inside. I think the future quality of Apple products shows some signs of concern...
What about all those Samsung devices using Qualcomm Snapdragons? Who do you think makes those chips?
Not a stupid question at all. TSMC is a manufacturing beast and close to a pure foundry. That means they don't make their own chips (although they do do some design work for those that want it)- they just make whatever other people want them to make. You won't hear of a 'TSMC Pentium' chip or anything they actually make themselves. They just make a ton of stuff at low margins and can underbid most simply by economies of scale.
Intel likes to be a 'playa' They have their own products. They generally don't build 'low end' semiconductor devices making mostly high end processors. They like high margins.
Apple generally likes to enter business relationships where they are the dictator rather than a partner and TSMC is a better fit. That said, the only thing that worries me about TSMC is they struggled a little last year (production wise, not financially) and their two biggest customers went shopping because TSMC couldn't meet their demand. Adding a new 'biggest customer' when you're already struggling with your existing ones is questionable, and leaves Apple a little vulnerable if TSMC can't deliver. Hate Samsung all you want but they deliver. I think Apple found a pretty good balance- their knee jerk was probably to get rid of Samsung sooner, but if they get rid of Samsung at the expense of shooting off their own foot its not worth it.
I am not surprise Apple had dropped a couple of $Bs to have their dedicated lines at TSMC.
Thanks to all for the thoughtful and informative responses. I still wonder why Apple just doesn't create their own foundry rather than drop billions on others to scale up. It's not like they are too poor is it? I realize it would take some time, whether they start from scratch or acquisition. But, my god, it's not like they are going to stop needing chips in the future. It's the one component needed for everything they do!
To add to what others have said. I worked at both AMD and Intel. E.G. AMD would make the chips in Austin, TX or Dresden, Germany. The wafers would be tested and then shipped to Malaysia for packaging and then to Singapore for final test and burn-in. Intel has fabs all over the world. So the chips really are international in total. Design groups are also spread out. At AMD the main design groups for CPUs are in California and Texas with a group in Boston added just before I retired 4 years ago. Incidentally, AMD split off the fabs just before I retired so they have been using foundries for some time now.
No one said they don't make quality products. The point it, Apple makes custom chips, having custom designs, which Intel, AMD could use in their own chips. TSMC does not manufacture their own products, so there would be no competing.
It is sad to think your partner will use your knowledge against you, but look at Samsung and Google. Both having close ties to Apple's latest technology and both using that to create competing products.
I think this is a great move. TSMC might not be making A8 processor until next year, but they may ramp up A7s just to work out the kinks while Samsung is still producing. I am also excited to see what the A8 will be as Apple will feel comfortable adding new tech that Samsung can't copy.
Samsung does seem to be getting away with copying a lot from Apple in overall appearance and function in general and Samsung does make Apple A series ARM based chips but Samsung doesn't make a chip that competes with Apple A series chips. The Apple A series ARM based chips are extremely and highly customized and optimized chips design by Apple for Apple products only and even Samsung isn't stupid enough to even try to copy Apple at the chip level. Intel, GF (AMD) or TSMC would not be able to copy Apple's A series chip designs either without getting into massive lawsuits that Apple would easily win.
Thanks to all for the thoughtful and informative responses. I still wonder why Apple just doesn't create their own foundry rather than drop billions on others to scale up. It's not like they are too poor is it? I realize it would take some time, whether they start from scratch or acquisition. But, my god, it's not like they are going to stop needing chips in the future. It's the one component needed for everything they do!
Why doesn't Apple make their own displays too?
1) Money can't buy everything, especially talent. For instance, Apple couldn't spend $40B and suddenly be able to launch space missions. Who says Apple would be good at making chips?
2) Doing everything in house has advantages, but also some steep disadvantages. One is being tied to your own technology, even when tech outside your bubble has advanced faster than you. Currently, Apple can sit back and choose the best horse.
Personally, I would prefer to have Apple's insides made by Samsung (if it can't be Apple/amd/intel) I know most people on here think of them as the devil, but they make solid products. The macs your using now, which we all grown to love have Samsung inside. I think the future quality of Apple products shows some signs of concern...
Samsung's components aren't any better than any other components in Apple's devices. It's Apple's QC that ensures all components meet a certain level of quality. Samsung is currently the only company that can produce the quantity Apple needs, because they've been working for more than four years to build out to meet the ever increasing demand.
Thanks to all for the thoughtful and informative responses. I still wonder why Apple just doesn't create their own foundry rather than drop billions on others to scale up. It's not like they are too poor is it? I realize it would take some time, whether they start from scratch or acquisition. But, my god, it's not like they are going to stop needing chips in the future. It's the one component needed for everything they do!
Almost always cheaper to have someone else manufacture something for you when you're not in the business of selling those components.
I wonder how much longer Apple will design their own phone/tablet chips? They don't design their own laptop/desktop chips. They seem to go their own way when what's in the market isn't good enough for the products they want to build. If Intel gets their act together in the phone/tablet space I wouldn't be surprised to see Apple discontinue the A-chips.
Personally, I would prefer to have Apple's insides made by Samsung (if it can't be Apple/amd/intel) I know most people on here think of them as the devil, but they make solid products. The macs your using now, which we all grown to love have Samsung inside. I think the future quality of Apple products shows some signs of concern...
No, that's from years of conditioning from "intel inside" (bing! bong bing bong bing!). The PC brands have long since given up their identities to the parts makers. Apple doesn't put "intel inside" stickers on their computers because Apple is the only brand you should see. Not intel. Not nVidia. Not AMD. Not Foxconn. Not tsmc. And certainly not Samsung.
So far, Apple has succeeded in diversifying its supply chain to include Toshiba NAND flash memory modules.
Except those Toshiba NAND flash memory modules present in the new 11" Airs are slower than the Samsung NAND flash memory modules present in the new 13" Airs according to Anand.
I wonder how much longer Apple will design their own phone/tablet chips? They don't design their own laptop/desktop chips. They seem to go their own way when what's in the market isn't good enough for the products they want to build. If Intel gets their act together in the phone/tablet space I wouldn't be surprised to see Apple discontinue the A-chips.
Apple have inveted heavily in this, by the time Intel gets around to it Apple will probably have more expertise and knowledge in this area than Intel, and be able to tune everything to work better together. But if they cannot, then yes, switching to Intel wouldn't be the end of the world.
Rather it is most likely recognition that TMSC has made some significant gains with the new processes and actually appears to be the leader amongst foundries operating on sub 32nm nodes.
I see no justification for that. Apple has yet to stop using Samsung to manufacture flash drives for example. Over all Apples devices use a large number of semiconductor suppliers to say that Samsung is that much better than all of the rest is a bit of a stretch.
Serious?
Quote:
SANTA CLARA, Calif. – Globalfoundries and Samsung are in a dead heat to get their first 14 nm production wafers out before the end of the year, aiming to beat rival Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Co. by as much as a year.
Samsung has already taped out 14nm and 20nm devices in 2012 and will have them in production This year, not 2015
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Getz
It is sad to think your partner will use your knowledge against you, but look at Samsung and Google. Both having close ties to Apple's latest technology and both using that to create competing products.
You are but one of many people on AI who claim Apple should move their chip manufacture away from Samsung to stop them copying Apple's technology.
Can anyone point to any chip level tech Samsung has copied from Apple?
They haven't, for the very simple reason they don't need to. Anyone who thinks Apple knows more about making cutting edge processors and SOC's than Samsung really is living in La-La land.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjtomlin
Samsung's components aren't any better than any other components in Apple's devices. It's Apple's QC that ensures all components meet a certain level of quality. Samsung is currently the only company that can produce the quantity Apple needs, because they've been working for more than four years to build out to meet the ever increasing demand.
That is not true. You obviously aren't one of the happy customers who bought a Macbook Pro Retina with an LG screen in it.
Personally, I would prefer to have Apple's insides made by Samsung (if it can't be Apple/amd/intel) I know most people on here think of them as the devil, but they make solid products. The macs your using now, which we all grown to love have Samsung inside. I think the future quality of Apple products shows some signs of concern...
hey look, a new Samesung marketing droid astro-turfing. Samesung products are garbage. the sooner they get out of my apple products the more reliable those products become.
That is not true. You obviously aren't one of the happy customers who bought a Macbook Pro Retina with an LG screen in it.
As if Samsung has NEVER had manufacturing issues before? Here's an idea... Go to Google and type, "Samsung display issues" Guess what? There are many of them. Even with their newest flagship phone the S4.
There is no such thing as perfect manufacturing. Issues, bad batches, etc., can and usually do occur. High-tech components are extremely sensitive and something as simple as a rise or drop in humidity can affect quality.
Samsung has already taped out 14nm and 20nm devices in 2012 and will have them in production This year, not 2015
You are but one of many people on AI who claim Apple should move their chip manufacture away from Samsung to stop them copying Apple's technology.
Can anyone point to any chip level tech Samsung has copied from Apple?
They haven't, for the very simple reason they don't need to. Anyone who thinks Apple knows more about making cutting edge processors and SOC's than Samsung really is living in La-La land.
That is not true. You obviously aren't one of the happy customers who bought a Macbook Pro Retina with an LG screen in it.
No one said Samsung copies Apple's chips. However, Samsung's longstanding relationship with Apple (being the supplier of several critical components) has likely afforded them a glimpse of the direction Apple is heading. Samsung swore up and down that there's a "wall" between their component group and their consumer technology group, but that isn't necessarily true. This was all covered in the trial.
Also, Apple doesn't know more about making chips, but they are pretty good at designing them (or directing the design). Why do you think the A-series has often easily beat Samsung's comparable chips?
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colper
Personally, I would prefer to have Apple's insides made by Samsung (if it can't be Apple/amd/intel) I know most people on here think of them as the devil, but they make solid products. The macs your using now, which we all grown to love have Samsung inside. I think the future quality of Apple products shows some signs of concern...
No one said they don't make quality products. The point it, Apple makes custom chips, having custom designs, which Intel, AMD could use in their own chips. TSMC does not manufacture their own products, so there would be no competing.
It is sad to think your partner will use your knowledge against you, but look at Samsung and Google. Both having close ties to Apple's latest technology and both using that to create competing products.
I think this is a great move. TSMC might not be making A8 processor until next year, but they may ramp up A7s just to work out the kinks while Samsung is still producing. I am also excited to see what the A8 will be as Apple will feel comfortable adding new tech that Samsung can't copy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colper
Personally, I would prefer to have Apple's insides made by Samsung (if it can't be Apple/amd/intel) I know most people on here think of them as the devil, but they make solid products. The macs your using now, which we all grown to love have Samsung inside. I think the future quality of Apple products shows some signs of concern...
What about all those Samsung devices using Qualcomm Snapdragons? Who do you think makes those chips?
I am not surprise Apple had dropped a couple of $Bs to have their dedicated lines at TSMC.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Getz
No one said they don't make quality products. The point it, Apple makes custom chips, having custom designs, which Intel, AMD could use in their own chips. TSMC does not manufacture their own products, so there would be no competing.
It is sad to think your partner will use your knowledge against you, but look at Samsung and Google. Both having close ties to Apple's latest technology and both using that to create competing products.
I think this is a great move. TSMC might not be making A8 processor until next year, but they may ramp up A7s just to work out the kinks while Samsung is still producing. I am also excited to see what the A8 will be as Apple will feel comfortable adding new tech that Samsung can't copy.
Samsung does seem to be getting away with copying a lot from Apple in overall appearance and function in general and Samsung does make Apple A series ARM based chips but Samsung doesn't make a chip that competes with Apple A series chips. The Apple A series ARM based chips are extremely and highly customized and optimized chips design by Apple for Apple products only and even Samsung isn't stupid enough to even try to copy Apple at the chip level. Intel, GF (AMD) or TSMC would not be able to copy Apple's A series chip designs either without getting into massive lawsuits that Apple would easily win.
Why doesn't Apple make their own displays too?
1) Money can't buy everything, especially talent. For instance, Apple couldn't spend $40B and suddenly be able to launch space missions. Who says Apple would be good at making chips?
2) Doing everything in house has advantages, but also some steep disadvantages. One is being tied to your own technology, even when tech outside your bubble has advanced faster than you. Currently, Apple can sit back and choose the best horse.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colper
Personally, I would prefer to have Apple's insides made by Samsung (if it can't be Apple/amd/intel) I know most people on here think of them as the devil, but they make solid products. The macs your using now, which we all grown to love have Samsung inside. I think the future quality of Apple products shows some signs of concern...
Samsung's components aren't any better than any other components in Apple's devices. It's Apple's QC that ensures all components meet a certain level of quality. Samsung is currently the only company that can produce the quantity Apple needs, because they've been working for more than four years to build out to meet the ever increasing demand.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Realistic
but Samsung doesn't make a chip that competes with Apple A series chips.
Samsung Exynos is an ARM based SoC.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin Huber
Thanks to all for the thoughtful and informative responses. I still wonder why Apple just doesn't create their own foundry rather than drop billions on others to scale up. It's not like they are too poor is it? I realize it would take some time, whether they start from scratch or acquisition. But, my god, it's not like they are going to stop needing chips in the future. It's the one component needed for everything they do!
Almost always cheaper to have someone else manufacture something for you when you're not in the business of selling those components.
I wonder how much longer Apple will design their own phone/tablet chips? They don't design their own laptop/desktop chips. They seem to go their own way when what's in the market isn't good enough for the products they want to build. If Intel gets their act together in the phone/tablet space I wouldn't be surprised to see Apple discontinue the A-chips.
No, that's from years of conditioning from "intel inside" (bing! bong bing bong bing!). The PC brands have long since given up their identities to the parts makers. Apple doesn't put "intel inside" stickers on their computers because Apple is the only brand you should see. Not intel. Not nVidia. Not AMD. Not Foxconn. Not tsmc. And certainly not Samsung.
Except those Toshiba NAND flash memory modules present in the new 11" Airs are slower than the Samsung NAND flash memory modules present in the new 13" Airs according to Anand.
Apple have inveted heavily in this, by the time Intel gets around to it Apple will probably have more expertise and knowledge in this area than Intel, and be able to tune everything to work better together. But if they cannot, then yes, switching to Intel wouldn't be the end of the world.
Good luck with that effort.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69
Rather it is most likely recognition that TMSC has made some significant gains with the new processes and actually appears to be the leader amongst foundries operating on sub 32nm nodes.
I see no justification for that. Apple has yet to stop using Samsung to manufacture flash drives for example. Over all Apples devices use a large number of semiconductor suppliers to say that Samsung is that much better than all of the rest is a bit of a stretch.
Serious?
Quote:
SANTA CLARA, Calif. – Globalfoundries and Samsung are in a dead heat to get their first 14 nm production wafers out before the end of the year, aiming to beat rival Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Co. by as much as a year.
http://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1263040
Samsung has already taped out 14nm and 20nm devices in 2012 and will have them in production This year, not 2015
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Getz
It is sad to think your partner will use your knowledge against you, but look at Samsung and Google. Both having close ties to Apple's latest technology and both using that to create competing products.
You are but one of many people on AI who claim Apple should move their chip manufacture away from Samsung to stop them copying Apple's technology.
Can anyone point to any chip level tech Samsung has copied from Apple?
They haven't, for the very simple reason they don't need to. Anyone who thinks Apple knows more about making cutting edge processors and SOC's than Samsung really is living in La-La land.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjtomlin
Samsung's components aren't any better than any other components in Apple's devices. It's Apple's QC that ensures all components meet a certain level of quality. Samsung is currently the only company that can produce the quantity Apple needs, because they've been working for more than four years to build out to meet the ever increasing demand.
That is not true. You obviously aren't one of the happy customers who bought a Macbook Pro Retina with an LG screen in it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colper
Personally, I would prefer to have Apple's insides made by Samsung (if it can't be Apple/amd/intel) I know most people on here think of them as the devil, but they make solid products. The macs your using now, which we all grown to love have Samsung inside. I think the future quality of Apple products shows some signs of concern...
hey look, a new Samesung marketing droid astro-turfing. Samesung products are garbage. the sooner they get out of my apple products the more reliable those products become.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cnocbui
That is not true. You obviously aren't one of the happy customers who bought a Macbook Pro Retina with an LG screen in it.
As if Samsung has NEVER had manufacturing issues before? Here's an idea... Go to Google and type, "Samsung display issues" Guess what? There are many of them. Even with their newest flagship phone the S4.
There is no such thing as perfect manufacturing. Issues, bad batches, etc., can and usually do occur. High-tech components are extremely sensitive and something as simple as a rise or drop in humidity can affect quality.
No one said Samsung copies Apple's chips. However, Samsung's longstanding relationship with Apple (being the supplier of several critical components) has likely afforded them a glimpse of the direction Apple is heading. Samsung swore up and down that there's a "wall" between their component group and their consumer technology group, but that isn't necessarily true. This was all covered in the trial.
Also, Apple doesn't know more about making chips, but they are pretty good at designing them (or directing the design). Why do you think the A-series has often easily beat Samsung's comparable chips?