Haswell-powered iMacs could hit in late Aug., followed by new MacBook Pros in mid-Sept.

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  • Reply 81 of 140
    tallest skiltallest skil Posts: 43,388member


    Originally Posted by Winter View Post

    So what graphics will the Haswell iMacs use? I am guessing the nVidia 700M series or will it be AMD this time around?


     


    Set your sights for Intel 5000 series.


     


    "But it's a desktop!"


     


    So if they happen to give us a proper chip, it'll be that much better. I wouldn't be surprised if the base 21.5" had only an iGPU.

  • Reply 82 of 140
    hmmhmm Posts: 3,405member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post


     


    So if they happen to give us a proper chip, it'll be that much better. I wouldn't be surprised if the base 21.5" had only an iGPU.



     


    Well the desktop chips don't have the best igpus available. It would be a pretty significant drop. I give that concept another year.

  • Reply 83 of 140
    winterwinter Posts: 1,238member
    Maybe the base might have an iGPU though what about the upper 21.5" and both 27" models? You think Apple is going for integrated across the board except for the Mac Pro?
  • Reply 84 of 140
    tallest skiltallest skil Posts: 43,388member




    Originally Posted by Winter View Post

    Maybe the base might have an iGPU though what about the upper 21.5" and both 27" models? You think Apple is going for integrated across the board except for the Mac Pro?


     


    Sure hope not, but hoping never gets anyone anywhere.

  • Reply 85 of 140
    winterwinter Posts: 1,238member
    Sure hope not, but hoping never gets anyone anywhere.

    Do you see yourself getting away from the Apple platform if they make a move too drastic?
  • Reply 86 of 140
    tallest skiltallest skil Posts: 43,388member




    Originally Posted by Winter View Post

    Do you see yourself getting away from the Apple platform if they make a move too drastic?




    Been Apple all my life. And I tend to hang onto my hardware longer than most, which gives them an opportunity to bring into its own any tech they decide to then use. I'm still not sold on the whole iGPU thing, but we've seen how well they do on ARM and we know that Apple has tasked Intel with building a custom GPU for them ~2015. We'll have to see.

  • Reply 87 of 140
    winterwinter Posts: 1,238member

    Been Apple all my life. And I tend to hang onto my hardware longer than most, which gives them an opportunity to bring into its own any tech they decide to then use. I'm still not sold on the whole iGPU thing, but we've seen how well they do on ARM and we know that Apple has tasked Intel with building a custom GPU for them ~2015. We'll have to see.

    Do you think nVidia and AMD can be power efficient enough?
  • Reply 88 of 140


    Originally Posted by Winter View Post

    Do you think nVidia and AMD can be power efficient enough?


     


    Oh, sure. If pressed. Thing about those two is they only have each other to compete against. That's incentive, sure, and it has shown in the biannual updates, but you can tell there's no fear there. They one-up each other, but only enough. If they had a reason to be afraid, we'd see some great new stuff from them.


     


    The custom Intel GPU is happening, though. And I think it would take seeing that for ATI/Nvidia to step it up again. Of course, by then it might be too late to win back Apple, at least in the last few years of the existence of the laptop line (and the Mac Mini). 


     


    I haven't been paying as much attention as I should to the GPU side of things. All I know is I need a replacement for this 4870 and I'm just hoping that there will somehow be an OS X driver for a GTX 7xx or 8xx card…

  • Reply 89 of 140

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post




    Been Apple all my life. And I tend to hang onto my hardware longer than most, which gives them an opportunity to bring into its own any tech they decide to then use. I'm still not sold on the whole iGPU thing, but we've seen how well they do on ARM and we know that Apple has tasked Intel with building a custom GPU for them ~2015. We'll have to see.



     


    We know Apple has tasked Intel with building a custom GPU for them?


     


    We do?


     


    *looks puzzled?  What we talking about?  Custom integrated crappics?  (Though iGPU is less 'crap' than it used to be...)


     


    Lemon Bon Bon.

  • Reply 90 of 140

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post


     


    Set your sights for Intel 5000 series.


     


    "But it's a desktop!"


     


    So if they happen to give us a proper chip, it'll be that much better. I wouldn't be surprised if the base 21.5" had only an iGPU.



    *shudders at the thought of it.


     


    Lemon Bon Bon.

  • Reply 91 of 140
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 13,377member
    We know Apple has tasked Intel with building a custom GPU for them?

    We do?

    *looks puzzled?  What we talking about?  Custom integrated crappics?  (Though iGPU is less 'crap' than it used to be...)

    Lemon Bon Bon.

    Actually I was wondering the same thing. Getting binned processors with GPUs that run a little hotter isn't exactly a custom GPU. Further Apple seems to be heavily involved in the development of their own GPU. It would seem that that GPU is destined for iOS devices. Maybe, it is really hard to say with Apple but they could do their own GPU and have Intel build it in.

    With all of the electronics engineers that Apple now employes it is indeed a strange new world, where unexpected things could show up in Apples SoC.
  • Reply 92 of 140
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 13,377member
    winter wrote: »
    Do you think nVidia and AMD can be power efficient enough?

    They already are! Think about what a modern GPU does calculation wise, there is nothing more efficient on the market. This is why many industries have moved to GPU compute. Could they be even better power wise - certainly but nothing beats them now.

    To look at this from another direction look at AMDs APUs which do amazing well up against Intels best power wise. These days you can't judge a system by CPU performance alone.
  • Reply 93 of 140
    tallest skiltallest skil Posts: 43,388member


    Originally Posted by Lemon Bon Bon. View Post

    We know Apple has tasked Intel with building a custom GPU for them?


     


    We do?



     


    Huh. I figured that would have leaked somewhere by now. You'll hear more about it soon, I'll bet.





    Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

    It would seem that that GPU is destined for iOS devices.


     


    Then why is it being developed at Intel's labs?

  • Reply 94 of 140
    MarvinMarvin Posts: 15,269moderator
    Huh. I figured that would have leaked somewhere by now. You'll hear more about it soon, I'll bet.

    Anandtech alluded to Apple getting a custom Iris config:

    http://www.anandtech.com/show/6993/intel-iris-pro-5200-graphics-review-core-i74950hq-tested/5

    "At the request of at least one very eager OEM, Intel is offering a higher-TDP configuration of the i7-4950HQ. Using Intel’s Extreme Tuning Utility (XTU) I was able to simulate this cTDP up configuration by increasing the sustained power limit to 55W, and moving the short term turbo power limit up to 69W. OEMs moving from a 2-chip CPU + GPU solution down to a single Iris Pro are encouraged to do the same as their existing thermal solutions should be more than adequate to cool a 55W part. I strongly suspect this is the configuration we’ll see in the next-generation 15-inch MacBook Pro with Retina Display."

    Right now, Apple has a 45W CPU and 45W GPU in the MBP. The Iris Pro standard TDP is 55W so they have enough freedom to push the limit to somewhere between 55-90W. The stock Iris Pro seems to perform ok:


    [VIDEO]


    That's at 1366x768, low settings and is clearly above 30FPS the whole way. The 650M gets just above 30FPS at that res on medium settings. A higher clocked version should hold its own against the 650M. Although that's last year's GPU, the main motive will probably be OpenCL performance and Iris Pro should exceed even a 750M for compute. Maybe not an AMD GPU but the power draw will be lower with Iris. Apple is having to pay for two GPUs to go into the Macbook Pros just now and dynamically switch between them.

    I could easily see them committing to Intel graphics on the portable side. If NVidia/AMD can't improve steadily over the next few years, Apple will have to go with a better roadmap.
  • Reply 95 of 140
    winterwinter Posts: 1,238member
    The i7-4950HQ will probably be a BTO on the top level retina 15". The 4750HQ and 4850HQ will be the processors on the base and upgraded models respectively I think. Maybe they will have a discrete BTO as well.
  • Reply 96 of 140
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 13,377member
    Huh. I figured that would have leaked somewhere by now. You'll hear more about it soon, I'll bet.
    I'm not convinced. What we do know is that Apple has at least a couple of design centers in Florida with at least a one hiring a lot of AMD engineers. Plus Apples hires in California.
    Then why is it being developed at Intel's labs?
    The only thing I've seen is indications that Apple will get specially binned processors. That is not an example of a custom GPU. If you have evidence of custom silicon cough it up as it would be most interesting to see where Apple and Intel are going.

    By the way I think this is completely possible due to hints that Intel desires to get into more custom hardware. Doing a custom GPU would allow them to keep their higher margins. I just need to see some concrete evidence. Further I really doubt anything custom would be ready in the Haswell time frame.
  • Reply 97 of 140
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 13,377member
    Marvin wrote: »
    Anandtech alluded to Apple getting a custom Iris config:

    http://www.anandtech.com/show/6993/intel-iris-pro-5200-graphics-review-core-i74950hq-tested/5

    "At the request of at least one very eager OEM, Intel is offering a higher-TDP configuration of the i7-4950HQ. Using Intel’s Extreme Tuning Utility (XTU) I was able to simulate this cTDP up configuration by increasing the sustained power limit to 55W, and moving the short term turbo power limit up to 69W. OEMs moving from a 2-chip CPU + GPU solution down to a single Iris Pro are encouraged to do the same as their existing thermal solutions should be more than adequate to cool a 55W part. I strongly suspect this is the configuration we’ll see in the next-generation 15-inch MacBook Pro with Retina Display."
    A custom config though is not a custom chip. As to MBPs it really depends upon which model we are talking about. In the 13" Iris only makes perfect sense as it would be a solid improvement. On the 15" the discussion is far more complex.

    The problem is this, the 15" "pro" is used by a very wide array of Pros, for many an Intel only solution would be a step backwards at this time. Especially when OpenCL still isn't running on Intel GPUs under Mac OS/X. Obviously OpenCL is a driver support issue but currently it would be a show stopper.
    Right now, Apple has a 45W CPU and 45W GPU in the MBP. The Iris Pro standard TDP is 55W so they have enough freedom to push the limit to somewhere between 55-90W. The stock Iris Pro seems to perform ok:
    That extra wattage becomes a point source that is harder to deal with as opposed to having the same amount of heat spread over two sources. Iris Pro certainly isn't bad but I'm not sure if the entire ensemble is ready for a discrete GPU free 15" MBP. We are literally at a turning point where discrete GPU will start to loose their appeal.


    That's at 1366x768, low settings and is clearly above 30FPS the whole way. The 650M gets just above 30FPS at that res on medium settings. A higher clocked version should hold its own against the 650M. Although that's last year's GPU, the main motive will probably be OpenCL performance and Iris Pro should exceed even a 750M for compute. Maybe not an AMD GPU but the power draw will be lower with Iris. Apple is having to pay for two GPUs to go into the Macbook Pros just now and dynamically switch between them.
    Ultimately integrated will be delivering better performance than discrete solutions. Stuff needs to happen first though. For one faster memory systems are needed. Second the OS needs to support heterogeneous computing better. Third I suspect another generation of GPUs will be required before discrete GOUs are completely gone from laptops.

    There is probably more, but it is clear that we are at the point where integrated GPUs have become very interesting indeed.
    I could easily see them committing to Intel graphics on the portable side. If NVidia/AMD can't improve steadily over the next few years, Apple will have to go with a better roadmap.

    Yep! I'm just not sure it is this year.
  • Reply 98 of 140

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Marvin View Post





    Anandtech alluded to Apple getting a custom Iris config:



    http://www.anandtech.com/show/6993/intel-iris-pro-5200-graphics-review-core-i74950hq-tested/5



    "At the request of at least one very eager OEM, Intel is offering a higher-TDP configuration of the i7-4950HQ. Using Intel’s Extreme Tuning Utility (XTU) I was able to simulate this cTDP up configuration by increasing the sustained power limit to 55W, and moving the short term turbo power limit up to 69W. OEMs moving from a 2-chip CPU + GPU solution down to a single Iris Pro are encouraged to do the same as their existing thermal solutions should be more than adequate to cool a 55W part. I strongly suspect this is the configuration we’ll see in the next-generation 15-inch MacBook Pro with Retina Display."



    Right now, Apple has a 45W CPU and 45W GPU in the MBP. The Iris Pro standard TDP is 55W so they have enough freedom to push the limit to somewhere between 55-90W. The stock Iris Pro seems to perform ok:









    That's at 1366x768, low settings and is clearly above 30FPS the whole way. The 650M gets just above 30FPS at that res on medium settings. A higher clocked version should hold its own against the 650M. Although that's last year's GPU, the main motive will probably be OpenCL performance and Iris Pro should exceed even a 750M for compute. Maybe not an AMD GPU but the power draw will be lower with Iris. Apple is having to pay for two GPUs to go into the Macbook Pros just now and dynamically switch between them.



    I could easily see them committing to Intel graphics on the portable side. If NVidia/AMD can't improve steadily over the next few years, Apple will have to go with a better roadmap.


     


    Getting Crisis 3 to play at all on iGP is pretty incredible when you think about it.  Wasn't that long ago Crisis brought even dual GPUs to their knees.


     


    So I take the youtube link impressively.


     


    So it's in the 650 ball park. But with the 750M to come...


     


    Well, although crap for years, Intel intel crappics are finally catching up.  (They couldn't stay crap forever, eh?)  


     


    How far are AMD ahead in iGPU?


     


    And with 'Rogue' probably in the forthcoming iDevices...Apple has some pretty good iGPU all told.


     


    Not in the same ball park as 'real' gpus.


     


    But one day, for the average user, they won't care at this rate of improvement.


     


    I know someone who has her first iMac.  Next up base model and she's very happy with the performance of it versus her several year old PC.


     


    Performs very well with i5 and 650M and 8 gigs of ram.


     


    Lemon Bon Bon.

  • Reply 99 of 140

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post





    I'm not convinced. What we do know is that Apple has at least a couple of design centers in Florida with at least a one hiring a lot of AMD engineers. Plus Apples hires in California.

    The only thing I've seen is indications that Apple will get specially binned processors. That is not an example of a custom GPU. If you have evidence of custom silicon cough it up as it would be most interesting to see where Apple and Intel are going.



    By the way I think this is completely possible due to hints that Intel desires to get into more custom hardware. Doing a custom GPU would allow them to keep their higher margins. I just need to see some concrete evidence. Further I really doubt anything custom would be ready in the Haswell time frame.


     


    I'm thinking 2014 (gut feeling) will be the year we see 4k monitors and even better gpus for the iMac/Mac Pro etc.


     


    It's been a 'so-so' year re: cpu improvements.  iGPU is showing rapid improvement on Intel's side (how could it not? :P )


     


    The Mac Pro will kick arse when it launches.  It's the must watch update desktop side.


     


    Nothing will steal it's thunder short of a 4K iMac with Hex core.  Don't see that happening.


     


    Thought the current high end BTO iMac is a fantastic machine...all eyes are now on the Mac Pro.


     


    Lemon Bon Bon.

  • Reply 100 of 140
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 13,377member
    I'm thinking 2014 (gut feeling) will be the year we see 4k monitors and even better gpus for the iMac/Mac Pro etc.
    They might come with the Mac Pro release which will be close to 2014 anyways.
    It's been a 'so-so' year re: cpu improvements.  iGPU is showing rapid improvement on Intel's side (how could it not? :P )
    I don't expect to see huge CPU improvements anymore. Faster clock rates, more cores and more special instructions are a certainty but it has gotten to the point that huge engineer effort is required to get a few percent out of the ALU.
    The Mac Pro will kick arse when it launches.  It's the must watch update desktop side.
    Well that depends. Itis hard to kick anything if you are weighed down by a $7000 shoe.
    Nothing will steal it's thunder short of a 4K iMac with Hex core.  Don't see that happening.
    The interesting thing here is that hex core is possible with Haswell. To go mainstream Hex cores will likely need a node transition. Intel will delete the iGPU to make Hex core chips possible this year. So it is really a matter of Apple being willing.
    Thought the current high end BTO iMac is a fantastic machine...all eyes are now on the Mac Pro.

    Lemon Bon Bon.
    The problem with that is that I've never bought into a high end machine. Even my MBP was only a slight upgrade to the base model. Fantastic will be an affordable midrange machine with no built in monitor. Yes still pining for a XMac.
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