In fact, there was a comment that Apple plans to use a dedicated new touch sensor on the home button to avoid the issue with the button wearing out. If they merged these two plans together, seems like they have a great answer. A new button design that does not fail and one that provides substantially better security for the device.
No, they will still need the mechanical home button. Replacing it with a capacitive button is a fail for various reasons that have been gone over many times before.
By the way, I don't know that storing a complete fingerprint image will even be needed--maybe so, maybe not. It's plausible to me that a very lossy set of data could be used to create digital... er, fingerprint... of the image for matching. Like the way computers sometimes hear voices: they don't need a full recording, just some limited volume/pitch data etc.
So if people worry that the police could seize their phone and ask Apple to extract the fingerprint image for matching against crime scenes, that may not actually be practical.
Plus, unless you wear special gloves, there are much easier to get your fingerprints from your phone, and they've worked for decades
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee
Could it be that the whole problem here is the (non-english) source is mixing up the difference between convex and concave? It's a difference that vexes many Americans, it's possible that it got lost in the translation here.
If Ming-Chi Kuo is vexed by that, maybe he'll cave—admit he was wrong and revise the prediction.
Anything's possible, I guess, but this rumor wouldn't seem to work well with current Authentec sensors.
A covering for capacitive or RF is usally only a few microns thick. Can sapphire slices be made that thin? Wouldn't carving out a convex version be extremely wasteful, too?
Not to mention that convex sounds like a terrible idea in one's pocket. A button sticking out is going to get clicked all the time. That was the whole idea behind the current concave design... to not easily be accidentally clicked.
Also, the home button isn't big enough for a whole-finger scanner, so you'd need to swipe, and a raised button sounds like it would easily get clicked.
I just don't see this whole idea of a scanner in the Home button anyway. Next to it would make more sense. Unless the whole idea is that waking up the phone by punching the Home button, fully authenticates the user for the entire time that the phone remains awake.
Based on Apple's history, I'm sure they're more than capable of identifying and addressing these issues before implementation. And, worse case scenario, if they do screw it up, we know they generally correct them. That's one of the reasons why many people choose Apple's products.
But try not to get too far ahead of yourself here. Why don't we wait to see if problems materialise before worrying about them.
"I am an old man and have known a great many troubles, but most of them never happened." - Mark Twain
Anything's possible, I guess, but this rumor wouldn't seem to work well with current Authentec sensors.
A covering for capacitive or RF is usally only a few microns thick. Can sapphire slices be made that thin? Wouldn't carving out a convex version be extremely wasteful, too?
Not to mention that convex sounds like a terrible idea in one's pocket. A button sticking out is going to get clicked all the time. That was the whole idea behind the current concave design... to not easily be accidentally clicked.
Also, the home button isn't big enough for a whole-finger scanner, so you'd need to swipe, and a raised button sounds like it would easily get clicked.
Hello!!?? They ain't gonna be scanning no fingers, especially a whole finger!! The devices reads the biometrics in a wholly different way than looking at the ridges ON the finger's surface.
I suspect Apple will be growing the sapphire much the same way rubies are grown, so they could grow an ultra - thin layer, rather then slicing anything up. The hardness makes that problematical. I like the feel of the concave button, but it may not be necessary (or even movable) if the button is looking for a specific biometric finger reading instead of physical travel. Be prepared to be surprised... I know I am.
Anything's possible, I guess, but this rumor wouldn't seem to work well with current Authentec sensors.
<span style="line-height:1.231;">A covering for capacitive or RF is usally only a few microns thick. Can sapphire slices be made that thin? Wouldn't carving out a convex version be extremely wasteful, too?</span>
Kuo predicts the sensor's inclusion will keep the iPhone well ahead of competing Android and Windows Phone handsets, possible presaging Apple's entry into secure mobile payments.
Bingo. One step at a time toward a true e-wallet. Or would that be "iWallet"?
Based on Apple's history, I'm sure they're more than capable of identifying and addressing these issues before implementation. And, worse case scenario, if they do screw it up, we know they generally correct them. That's one of the reasons why many people choose Apple's products.
It's also the major reason why competitors rampantly copy Apple's products.
Because they do the hard design, development, testing, re-design, re-development, re-testing, ad nauseam.
Much easier, faster, and cheaper to just copy Apple instead of doing all that work.
Anything's possible, I guess, but this rumor wouldn't seem to work well with current Authentec sensors.
<span style="line-height:1.231;">A covering for capacitive or RF is usally only a few microns thick. Can sapphire slices be made that thin? Wouldn't carving out a convex version be extremely wasteful, too?</span>
Not to mention that convex sounds like a terrible idea in one's pocket. A button sticking out is going to get clicked all the time. That was the whole idea behind the current concave design... to not easily be accidentally clicked.
Also, the home button isn't big enough for a whole-finger scanner, so you'd need to swipe, and a raised button sounds like it would easily get clicked.
I just don't see this whole idea of a scanner in the Home button anyway. Next to it would make more sense. Unless the whole idea is that waking up the phone by punching the Home button, fully authenticates the user for the entire time that the phone remains awake.
KDarling, noted anti-Apple troll, at it again.....
Samsung will probably offer a smartphone with similar technology shortly after the new iPhone is introduced and by early next year, all Android smartphones will have fingerprint sensors. Anything Apple does that becomes successful will be quickly copied by rivals and there's nothing Apple can do about it. I doubt any patent is airtight and as far as I can tell from past experience, Samsung can reverse engineer any component with the greatest of ease. That's one huge advantage Samsung has over Apple. They never have any qualms about copying rival's technology and in fact they're rather proud of that ability. Why reinvent the wheel if someone else already has one?
Sept 10 will be interesting. Given the recent government spying scandal, I think there's going to be a serious discussion of the security and privacy implications of having every iPhone user's fingerprints right there available for the hacking.
Edit: s.metcalf beat me to it.
I agree, people are nervous and trust in government is probably at an all time low or if not close to it. Fingerprint sensing is all of a sudden a bad look for Apple. The timing couldn't be worse.
I agree, people are nervous and trust in government is probably at an all time low or if not close to it. Fingerprint sensing is all of a sudden a bad look for Apple. The timing couldn't be worse.
It'll be off by default and won't even have a prompt in setup of a new device, watch. That's the best way to go about it, even in a non-hostile climate. It would just be an option in settings.
I don't know why people keep thinking your fingerprint will be stored somewhere as a simple image or that someone could copy it. Do you think passwords are stored as plain text? There will be a mathematical formula that converts your fingerprint into some type of data that can't be converted back to a fingerprint.
Others have mentioned that fingerprints are not 100% unique. Irrelevant. This is not going to be something that's used to identify you among all the hundreds of millions of other iOS users. It's simply a method to verify if the proper owner of the iPhone is actually trying to use it. It would also be very secure for mobile payments as the odds of your iPhone getting into the hands of someone with a close-enough fingerprint to fool it are astronomical.
The button also doesn't have to be big enough to read your entire finger/thumb. Why would it? When the iPhone is set up you could perform several "passes" so your entire print is analyzed. When unlocking your iPhone it only needs to see a portion of your finger/thumb print to see it if matches up with your entire finger/thumb. This also makes the device more user-friendly as you don't have to be exact with how you place your finger/thumb (unlike face unlock which can be picky at times). This will make it fast to use, which is something I'm sure Apple will be picky about.
A convex home button will create problems with it being inadvertently hit. Although the fingerprint sensor is a great option Apple would be better off finding a way to keep it concave or wait til they can.
Just an idea, not sure if someone has already said this, but, because iOS 7 utilizes all directions of motion (left>right=back/unlock) (pull top down=notification center) (pull bottom up=control panel) except right to left does not have any functionality. Does anyone thing they are saving this function for the finger scanner (maybe you scan your finger right>left) so they don't want to confuse that motion (right>left) with anything else. Not sure, feel free to build on this idea. Or do you think they are they just never going utilize right>left motion?
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by cwoloszynski
In fact, there was a comment that Apple plans to use a dedicated new touch sensor on the home button to avoid the issue with the button wearing out. If they merged these two plans together, seems like they have a great answer. A new button design that does not fail and one that provides substantially better security for the device.
No, they will still need the mechanical home button. Replacing it with a capacitive button is a fail for various reasons that have been gone over many times before.
By the way, I don't know that storing a complete fingerprint image will even be needed--maybe so, maybe not. It's plausible to me that a very lossy set of data could be used to create digital... er, fingerprint... of the image for matching. Like the way computers sometimes hear voices: they don't need a full recording, just some limited volume/pitch data etc.
So if people worry that the police could seize their phone and ask Apple to extract the fingerprint image for matching against crime scenes, that may not actually be practical.
Plus, unless you wear special gloves, there are much easier to get your fingerprints from your phone, and they've worked for decades
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee
Could it be that the whole problem here is the (non-english) source is mixing up the difference between convex and concave? It's a difference that vexes many Americans, it's possible that it got lost in the translation here.
If Ming-Chi Kuo is vexed by that, maybe he'll cave—admit he was wrong and revise the prediction.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KDarling
Anything's possible, I guess, but this rumor wouldn't seem to work well with current Authentec sensors.
A covering for capacitive or RF is usally only a few microns thick. Can sapphire slices be made that thin? Wouldn't carving out a convex version be extremely wasteful, too?
Not to mention that convex sounds like a terrible idea in one's pocket. A button sticking out is going to get clicked all the time. That was the whole idea behind the current concave design... to not easily be accidentally clicked.
Also, the home button isn't big enough for a whole-finger scanner, so you'd need to swipe, and a raised button sounds like it would easily get clicked.
I just don't see this whole idea of a scanner in the Home button anyway. Next to it would make more sense. Unless the whole idea is that waking up the phone by punching the Home button, fully authenticates the user for the entire time that the phone remains awake.
Based on Apple's history, I'm sure they're more than capable of identifying and addressing these issues before implementation. And, worse case scenario, if they do screw it up, we know they generally correct them. That's one of the reasons why many people choose Apple's products.
But try not to get too far ahead of yourself here. Why don't we wait to see if problems materialise before worrying about them.
"I am an old man and have known a great many troubles, but most of them never happened." - Mark Twain
Quote:
Originally Posted by KDarling
Anything's possible, I guess, but this rumor wouldn't seem to work well with current Authentec sensors.
A covering for capacitive or RF is usally only a few microns thick. Can sapphire slices be made that thin? Wouldn't carving out a convex version be extremely wasteful, too?
Not to mention that convex sounds like a terrible idea in one's pocket. A button sticking out is going to get clicked all the time. That was the whole idea behind the current concave design... to not easily be accidentally clicked.
Also, the home button isn't big enough for a whole-finger scanner, so you'd need to swipe, and a raised button sounds like it would easily get clicked.
Hello!!?? They ain't gonna be scanning no fingers, especially a whole finger!! The devices reads the biometrics in a wholly different way than looking at the ridges ON the finger's surface.
I suspect Apple will be growing the sapphire much the same way rubies are grown, so they could grow an ultra - thin layer, rather then slicing anything up. The hardness makes that problematical. I like the feel of the concave button, but it may not be necessary (or even movable) if the button is looking for a specific biometric finger reading instead of physical travel. Be prepared to be surprised... I know I am.
Not a problem at all. For example:
http://www.ultra-thin.com/sapphire.htm
You could also apply the sapphire as a coating.
Originally Posted by AppleInsider
Kuo predicts the sensor's inclusion will keep the iPhone well ahead of competing Android and Windows Phone handsets, possible presaging Apple's entry into secure mobile payments.
Bingo. One step at a time toward a true e-wallet. Or would that be "iWallet"?
Originally Posted by GTR
Based on Apple's history, I'm sure they're more than capable of identifying and addressing these issues before implementation. And, worse case scenario, if they do screw it up, we know they generally correct them. That's one of the reasons why many people choose Apple's products.
It's also the major reason why competitors rampantly copy Apple's products.
Because they do the hard design, development, testing, re-design, re-development, re-testing, ad nauseam.
Much easier, faster, and cheaper to just copy Apple instead of doing all that work.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SockRolid
Because they do the hard design, development, testing, re-design, re-development, re-testing, ad nauseam.
Does AuthenTec get none of the credit for all their work before being purchased?
They get financially rewarded unless they negotiate otherwise when purchased.
Try not to worry your pretty head too much about it.
Hey, here's a sock puppet to distract you and take away all your worries about Apple mistreating companies!
Isn't HE cool!
Would you like for him to sing a song about how these deals generally benefit everybody?
Quote:
Originally Posted by GTR
They get financially rewarded unless they negotiate otherwise when purchased.
Try not to worry your pretty head too much about it.
Hey, here's a sock puppet to distract you and take away all your worries about Apple mistreating companies!
Isn't HE cool!
Would you like for him to sing a song about how these deals generally benefit everybody?
You misunderstood, I'm not implying that Apple is mistreating AuthenTec in any way, shape or form.
I agree, people are nervous and trust in government is probably at an all time low or if not close to it. Fingerprint sensing is all of a sudden a bad look for Apple. The timing couldn't be worse.
Originally Posted by s.metcalf
I agree, people are nervous and trust in government is probably at an all time low or if not close to it. Fingerprint sensing is all of a sudden a bad look for Apple. The timing couldn't be worse.
It'll be off by default and won't even have a prompt in setup of a new device, watch. That's the best way to go about it, even in a non-hostile climate. It would just be an option in settings.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KDarling
Anything's possible, I guess, but this rumor wouldn't seem to work well with current Authentec sensors.
Of course, because I'm sure you have access to all of Authentec's technology and what they're working on. /S
I don't know why people keep thinking your fingerprint will be stored somewhere as a simple image or that someone could copy it. Do you think passwords are stored as plain text? There will be a mathematical formula that converts your fingerprint into some type of data that can't be converted back to a fingerprint.
Others have mentioned that fingerprints are not 100% unique. Irrelevant. This is not going to be something that's used to identify you among all the hundreds of millions of other iOS users. It's simply a method to verify if the proper owner of the iPhone is actually trying to use it. It would also be very secure for mobile payments as the odds of your iPhone getting into the hands of someone with a close-enough fingerprint to fool it are astronomical.
The button also doesn't have to be big enough to read your entire finger/thumb. Why would it? When the iPhone is set up you could perform several "passes" so your entire print is analyzed. When unlocking your iPhone it only needs to see a portion of your finger/thumb print to see it if matches up with your entire finger/thumb. This also makes the device more user-friendly as you don't have to be exact with how you place your finger/thumb (unlike face unlock which can be picky at times). This will make it fast to use, which is something I'm sure Apple will be picky about.
Not if the fingerprint is needed to activate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayfizzle
A convex home button will create problems with it being inadvertently hit. Although the fingerprint sensor is a great option Apple would be better off finding a way to keep it concave or wait til they can.
How much is the sapphire going to be worth?