FWIW, I have my own pro-Apple, anti-MS, Google, Sammy biases -- but I try not to let that color my reasoning (aside from jerking one's chain for fun).
Dick Applebaum
Dick, you are an honest man. And in an honest world you would be a king. Just one example played out many times. The Buddhist does not fight and in the end may be the better person for it. But in this, their homelands were devoured. The top of India, Afganistan, and surrounding countries, SouthnEast Asia, Tibet to name from historical times and recent. Sir Lanka might be the first and only instance where in desperation these people have stood their grounds. Today they know the history of their brethren. And today we live in a world where war is a tradition of honour.
Apple is under attack, not in the normal progress of business of recent past. Now the onslaught is waged in much more nefarious ways with media deception, paid trolls and economic interests that never before played such a role.
As a Buddhiat I am proud of our history but with sadness and understanding. Apple fellows come in many kinds and those who choose the sacred role, more power to them. Those, like DED, their role also has means and purpose for they are not willing to lie down and die; they burnish the pen and fight the good fight with like intense in these times where the pen must meet the deceiver. And with the pen comes as much heart as with the soldiers weapon.
I wonder, would you, do you spend as much time fighting your good cause where Apple Haters and paid trolls do their muschief. We know what laying down of arms means. They do not get to write the history books.
I have no problem waging the good war... been doing it for 36 years! I do think you have to choose your battles and leaders wisely.
I do respect someone "burnishing the pen" in waging the battle -- what I don't respect is one who burnishes the facts or misrepresents or elides them
IMO, DED is mostly a gossip who poses as a journalist... the exception is the occasional article which delivers an even-handed presentation of the subject.
It took me a long time to realize this and to take this decision -- as DED and I share a common like [for lack of a getter word] for Apple and general dislike for unethical competitors (including, MS, Google, Sammy).
Our household is MS-free *, Sammy-free and mostly Google-free. Those choices were made based on my experience, observations of others -- but, hopefully, a minimum of disinformation of the type usually spewed by DED.
I will comment further in response to a later post...
Oh dear... I have been considering abandoning AI forums because it appears that they are turning into a DED blog.
I followed him for years on his roughly drafted blog...
But I eventually left the site because of his biased reporting and demeaning anyone who disagreed with him.
DED is pro-Apple to an unsupportable degree... and anti everything MS, Google, Sammy, et al.
When DED sticks to the facts he often creates a reasoned, well-presented article (even if it tends to be verbose).
Mostly, though, DED seems to be following an agenda: promoting everything Apple and slamming anything competitive. He cites prior articles written by himself to support the so-called "facts" he is presenting -- while ignoring or eliding contrary facts or points of view.
Then when called on a point DED posts a rejoinder using a pseudonym "@corrections" -- reaffirming his "facts" and often demeaning the poster.
It is my understanding that participants in an AI forum are allowed a single user ID -- I don't understand why DED is allowed this special privilege.
FWIW, I have my own pro-Apple, anti-MS, Google, Sammy biases -- but I try not to let that color my reasoning (aside from jerking one's chain for fun).
Dick Applebaum
I wouldn't want to suggest you look at things any differently, just offer another perspective.
I think how much slack you give DED depends on your own level of moral outrage. For example, you say you have anti-MS, Google and Sammy biases. I would say these are logically justified moral positions, not biases.
Samsung cheats by poisoning the public's perception of Apple and HTC products, proven in the case of HTC, suspected with reason in the case of Apple. Their commercials are ageist cultural warfare against Apple. (Apple was careful to make the PC lovable, but they were guilty of Jobsian cultural war with the lemmings ad.) Samsung cheats by copying, and by using a stolen free operating system. Google undermines real effort in operating systems by giving away a stolen inferior product that poisons the mobile sphere generally, the way Microsoft has done with poisoning the PC technosphere with incompetent, bloated crapware for decades, to say nothing of their efforts to kill off rival competent systems like QuickTime and Netscape.
There's no room or time to treat these companies as morally equivalent competitors. They are enemies, out to subvert Apple (though Microsoft not so much anymore). This is a moment in technological and business history where we're faced with choosing between clashing systems. Will we stick with the same corrupt, exploitive, planned-obsolesence-driven schlock consumer tech practices that have plagued capitalism as practiced in rapacious cultures for many decades now, or will we choose to "ethicize" our technology and introduce care for the user as the guiding principle, instead of merely the making of money?
I think Dilger, Gruber, Elmer-DeWitt, Dediu and a few others are writing from that position, which is a mistake to call a pro-Apple bias. In other contexts, it's called being on the right side of history.
So I overlook any of DED's plasticity with his material. I like it when he rides out to Nevada to see what the graders are doing behind the chainlink fence, because on the weekends, Siri is still too busy to "take any requests right now." Apple needs to build data centers all around the world, and put up a few satellites too. They got a lot of work to do, and here's Android nickel and diming them with schlock attacks. Shameful. No punches should be pulled, in my view.
I think you do Gruber, Elmer-DeWitt, Dediu (and the few others) * a disservice by including DED in the group!
Other than that, I agree with most of what you say! However, I think the excesses of DED reportings only gives ammunition to the opposition and helps them to justify their "activities"... "after all, Apple (or by proxy, Apple fans and journalists) do it too".
* The aforementioned (and hopefully I) frequently compliment something "done well" by Apples biggest enemies... I cannot recall DED ever doing that except as part of a snide or backhanded presentation.
FWIW, I think the US is similarly challenged by poor leadership (both parties), cheating and misrepresentation of the truth.
Nagromme, I understand and truly sympathize with your sense of fairness. I suffer that gene, as well. However, I've become disillusioned with the lack of objectivity in reporting on Apple, possibly done by the unscrupulous to gain more site visits. There must be money in this and money, for some, trumps integrity. ...
I hear you--I can see room I the dialog for extreme statements, be they for humor of outrage, and I enjoy them myself! I make them, too.
(I'd just rather that stuff didn't mix in with the detailed fact-based reporting, because it diminishes some good, reasoned points, and makes those points easier for people to dismiss. John Gruber is accused of being a biased fanboy, but you'll almost never find him crossing the line away from reason and evidence, and when he does, he calls himself on it. At the same time, he doesn't dig up detailed facts and history and lay them out visually in the way DED does. I'm definitely glad to have DED's perspective and details, and follow his writing despite the grain of salt!)
And I definitely agree that a lot of the Apple misinformation and negative narratives (fire Tim Cook! Microsoft is the winner over Apple, so Google will be too!) are motivated by money! And then the FUD is repeated by emotion-driven multitudes who hate Apple without any real supportable reasons at all. (Some are my friends--it's fascinating!)
A small minority with half-hidden greed motivations, manipulating masses using trumped-up emotional issues instead of reason and evidence? One could draw a parallel with American politics, but I won't go there :D
P.S. Extremists set the center point. If one side of any divide is deceptive and unreasonable and wrong, and the other side is rational and correct, then the "moderate middle" viewpoint--the allegedly "open-minded" and mainstream viewpoint, is one that's half wrong! And in the media, we have this weird thing now of "presenting both sides equally" even when one side is true and the other is a lie--which is a misunderstanding of a very good principle.
So, maybe it's better to have extremists to dismiss on both sides, so the perceived middle stance can be well-reasoned! (Unfortunately, in the case of Apple--as in politics if I were to go there—the extremism tends to be more on the wrong side, and the center point is badly skewed. Example: Android IS better for some users with very specific goals--but for the vast majority iOS is clearly the better choice, whether they get to try both and know that or not. The narrative, then, is one of two "equal" choices to weigh, when the reality should be more like the narrative of Linux vs Mac or even Windows: few would say Linux is a bad thing that should go away, but few would deny that it's the lesser choice for most computer users.)
Do you all hear yourselves!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! OMG, I can't believe the holier than thou-war cry-pseudoreligiosity crap that is on this page! Just WOW! <img alt="1eek.gif" id="user_yui_3_10_0_1_1376606355665_1122" src="http://forums-files.appleinsider.com/images/smilies/1eek.gif" style="line-height:1.231;" name="user_yui_3_10_0_1_1376606355665_1122">
And I thought Android fanboys were bad...
To win a war, you first have to realize that you are in one!
Do you all hear yourselves!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! OMG, I can't believe the holier than thou-war cry-pseudoreligiosity crap that is on this page! Just WOW! And I thought Android fanboys were bad...
Agreed. Sadly, you can't stop those mindless posters on either side... all you can do is try not to sound holier-than-thou yourself, and try to post substantive info and arguments instead of their kind of empty "crap"
Apple has opened up iOS7 to accomplish much of what you mention above. Once iOS7 is released, most of the existing apps are ready to take full advantage of the improved communication between apps. In addition, multitasking will be vasty improved.
Never confuse sheer numbers with quality Android users know what I mean Throw out the junk of the App Store and the junk on Android, then compare again. Next, compare side-by-side those apps available for both iOS and Android. Not a pretty picture. Fragmentation is real, and its affects on app development are unavoidably massive.
And then on tablets we have the issue that commission-driven carrier salespeople aren't tossing bottom-end awful Android devices at uninformed shoppers. Android loses that major first-time-buyer advantage when it comes to tablets. (Not their only advantage of course: dirt-cheap devices sell on price alone around the world, and Apple won't make anything that poor; but those aren't big app-buying customers either.) People expecting Android to "catch up" and offer people as much as iOS seem to be forever reaching just over the horizon that never comes...
I've used both Apple and Android and the 'quality' of phone apps is very comparable- at least among the top 1000 apps. The rest I really don't care about because I'm never going to load 93948202 apps on my phone. Usually less than 50 even.
The point made though is that Apple users main argument currently *is* about volume of apps. There are WAY MORE tablet optimized apps for iPad than Android tablets. I agree with that statement, but its another one of those metrics Apple is going to lose and then the argument will have to be changed to something else again. Android phone apps run much better on Android tablets than Apple phone apps run on iPads. So Apple users assuming phone apps suck on tablets because that's the way it is in their ecosystem isn't really accurate. The only drawback to phone apps on Android tablets is that they could do more with the real estate (additional menus etc).
There's room for both platforms to be great. The argument just surprises me in its dogma. It's like when I had my iPhone and the Blackberry users would always spout it was a toy and couldn't do real time push notifications or whatever. It was just such a short sighted argument to make. Did they not see the writing on the wall on how easy it was to make an iPhone do what only a Blackberry could then do- yet it was a near impossibility to make the Blackberries do what an iPhone could do.
I agree with that statement, but its another one of those metrics Apple is going to lose and then the argument will have to be changed to something else again.
When measurable differences don't work out in your favor just state that those metrics don't mean anything and shift focus to something that is subjective and can't be measured.
I'm just thankful that we have a few good men like this man on our side. I've seen sites, good Apple sites, lose honest Apple viewers, to the destruction of good argument, when taken over by Haters whose sole objective is the undermining of any arguments that support Apple's position. The MacObserver, for example, had a particularly nasty troll who was clever, informed and devious enough that he had the editors acquiescing on minor points as he nitpicked the site to harm such that the editors supported him when he was 'attacked', even questioned by less abled site members. In my opinion, when heart is lost, a grave injustice is done. That is when I had my turnaround. That is why I support the DED to the good, the honourable fight. He may approach the line and let a toe venture to the other side, but so what!. He is right and those who spiel lies and deception for their tired tirades trust the fire be returned.
Hmm, mhikl, you don't say? The MacObserver, huh? A particularly nasty troll?!?!? Sounds vaguely familiar!!
I've used both Apple and Android and the 'quality' of phone apps is very comparable- at least among the top 1000 apps. The rest I really don't care about because I'm never going to load 93948202 apps on my phone. Usually less than 50 even.
The point made though is that Apple users main argument currently *is* about volume of apps. ...
Your stance seems religious in nature--as though you're working backwards from an emotion to find anything that supports it. Maybe not. I'd be interested in getting to the real facts.
"Apple users main argument is about volume" ... ?
I don't know what your evidence is for that, but regardless, it's wrong to argue that and if they do, it's not worth it. Volume of apps matters, but not beyond a certain point (it's a problem on Windows Phone, say) and only if quality is the same. It's secondary. Volume OF quality is what matters.
"the 'quality' of phone apps is very comparable- at least among the top 1000 apps"
You've used or seen the top 1000 apps on both platforms in enough depth to judge them? That sounds like it could be made up. (And the most popular apps are the only ones that matter? I don't think people are all as alike in the needs and uses as that.)
As for quality, I don't see the evidence you do--I see people with Android tablets struggling with mediocre apps, and I see people online looking for Android equivalents of great iOS apps and failing. I don't doubt you've had a different experience--but I'm not just guessing, I have evidence for what I've seen.
If you've seen something very different, then I'd be interested in your answer to my first question here. What ARE those Android apps that answer that?
"So Apple users assuming phone apps suck on tablets because that's the way it is in their ecosystem isn't really accurate."
No, we're not assuming--we've seen them. Some major examples are depicted in this very article. And you conveniently skip over the point that iPad users seldom HAVE to resort to running phone apps. It's like saying the iPad is poor because is has no defragger
Quote:
Originally Posted by DroidFTW
When measurable differences don't work out in your favor just state that those metrics don't mean anything and shift focus to something that is subjective and can't be measured.
That is actually an excellent point. The Android fan position often amounts to: "quality doesn't matter." Rather than debate whether quality can be "measured," I will acknowledge that it matters more to iOS users than Android users. For certain.
"Quality doesn't matter" is actually a common anti-Apple position in general over the years: it's the root of bullet-point marketing. "Apple product does 9 things well. Non-Apple product does 10 things poorly. Non-Apple product is better! I measured the bullet points!"
And yet... the same people who say quality can't be judged can still choose one Android app over another, or one Windows laptop over another, or whatever... based on quality! They seem to understand more than they let on...
That is actually an excellent point. The Android fan position often amounts to: "quality doesn't matter." Rather than debate whether quality can be "measured," I will acknowledge that it matters more to iOS users than Android users. For certain.
"Quality doesn't matter" is actually a common anti-Apple position in general over the years: it's the root of bullet-point marketing. "Apple product does 9 things well. Non-Apple product does 10 things poorly. Non-Apple product is better! I measured the bullet points!"
And yet... the same people who say quality can't be judged can still choose one Android app over another, or one Windows laptop over another, or whatever... based on quality! They seem to understand more than they let on...
I hope you're not referring to me because I would never say that quality doesn't matter. It most certainly does. I could see where two people may disagree on what has better quality between two choices, but this is the first I've ever heard of someone saying that there's a common stance that quality doesn't matter. Is this from online reading or from anecdotal evidence? Do you have any sources to back up your assertion that Android users think that quality doesn't matter?
This is the kind of post that proves the worth of "discussion forums" on the web.
It is succinct and well reasoned.
Your point: "Apple has turned the greatest strength of Wintel and even open source against themselves" -- has made me stop and think about Wintel and Open Source deficiencies -- from another perspective.
I never thought about them that way, but the seeds of their destruction are built-in to their offerings!
No way can Intel or Microsoft abandon compatibility with the past -- it's an anchor holding back all their products.
As for open-source -- it becomes "rule by committee" and rises only to the level of the lowest common denominator.
By their very nature, they cannot make giant leaps forward -- or be nimble adding features or upgrades.!
Well, that is not really true.
With current state of technology, virtualization is already viable alternative for hard-coded legacy support. Yes, new Windows still has infamous Registry, but when you compare XP and Vista/7/8, you will see that they are very different beasts.
Current problem with Windows is pushing changes too far and, according to many, in a wrong direction - rather than lack of them.
iOS has not done phone-on-tablet as well since the beginning and still doesn't. I'm a Mac person but Android has iOS by the short hairs here. On my Android tablet (I own one of each system) a "phone app" will open full screen, behave properly, change horizons when I turn my tablet and is crisper than any iOS App that has been "2x"d. Fonts all work and look beautiful... it's a much better experience. And often I don't know a "phone app" is even a phone app unless I've looked specifically for that info. Some developers do design better than others but overall... seriously, Android's implementation is much better on this aspect.
Has it occurred to you that maybe Apple screwed over the porting of phone apps on the ipad exactly so developers have to create optimised tablet apps?
Has it occurred to you that maybe Apple screwed over the porting of phone apps on the ipad exactly so developers have to create optimised tablet apps?
What an odd statement.
In what way have Apple "screwed over the porting of phone apps on the iPad"? I have two iPhone/iPod touch apps on the App Store. They run identically on both my iPod touch and my iPad. It's possible to run them at 2xon the iPad (which can be better or not depending on the app) but obviously can make things look rather pixellated in which case just run the app at standard resolution and it will behave just as if it were running on an iPod touch.
The app I'm writing at present is Universal which means that it runs at full size and natively on both the 3.5" and 4" iPhones/iPod touches and will run full screen at native resolution on the iPad including Retina display on all of those devices. Apple introduced Universal apps at the same time as the iPad and as a developer I can choose when I create an app to make it iPhone only, iPad only or Universal. It's amazing that after Apple stating this at events and it being on their website that some people still find it so hard to understand.
I agree that the quality of android apps is poor. I use the iWork apps regularly for creating and editing documents. I bought a Samsung tab2 7.0 because I wanted to try android. The Tab2 came with Polaris Office and I bought Quick Office Pro HD (google owned) and Kingsoft Office (free). None of these compare favourably to the iWork apps. Whilst they all open documents ok they are lacking when it comes to creating documents. Polaris doesn't have a spell checker, Quick Office can't create charts in spreadsheets an none have transitions in presentations. Plus the lack of screen real estate makes them virtually unusable with a soft keyboard. All in all office apps on android are a huge disappointment. I can actually create documents more easily using iWork in my iPhone 3GS.
Office Suite Pro does both. Transitions in slides as well as charts in spreadsheet.
Also, the Asus Transformer (which I had) and the HP Slatebook's (which I may buy) tablet/laptop keyboard are excellent for typing. Because they lock in and can be carted around as a single unit, I find them far superior to carrying a separate BT keyboard and mounting the tablet on a table. I can keep it on my lap and type.
SwiftKey is an excellent keyboard (tablet optimized) app. You aren't going to see that on iOS.
Nova Launcher is an excellent launcher. You won't see that on iOS either. It allows me to change transitions, add/removes pages, multiple docks, change the L&F etc. Plus allows me to backup and restore my desktop settings across devices.
HD Widgets/Beautiful Widgets. I have a completely customized clock/weather widget with a widget for multiple timezones. The widget also has some quick toggle built in. In addition, I have Google's "My Library" widget from which I can quickly launch the last book, magazine, song, or video I was reading or watching. At a glance, I can see the meetings for the day and the week with the Calendar widget. The Google Keep widget allows me to quickly jot down a note or make a list. Synced to the cloud so if I make one on the PC before I leave home, it's right on my screen on the phone when shopping without having to search for an launch a tasks app. I used to have a Shazam widget on my phone so it could find a song that was playing. But I now use Google Now for that.
NotificationToggle allows me to add a notification menu that houses some quick apps and toggles that are not in the default OS toggles. One of the first app I add is Google Gestures. When I need to get to a contact, I drop down the notification shade, launch Gestures and start scrawling the letters. I don't recall the last time I used the Contacts app. Neither of these apps are tablet "optimized", but work like a charm on phones and tablets. Not possible on iOS.
There are innumerable game emulators. I'm not much of a gamer. So I have no idea how well they work or if they make any sense on a tablet. But it's an option for me to have checked out if I was so inclined.
One of the reasons, why I sold my iPad was due to the lack of an exposed file system which wouldn't let me move photos around in folders to create my own galleries. Root Explorer is a top paid app. I used to use it. Now I use Solid Explorer which is tablet optimized and extremely well. Apart from dual view files systems, I can also move files in and out of FTP, SFTP, Samba shares and cloud storage like Box and DropBox. Won't see that on iOS.
Titanium Backup, not tablet optimized. Would be better if it was. It's not getting any awards for UI anyway. But it's rock solid and I don't know if there are apps like that on iOS (maybe in Cydia).
Google Play Music which I just love. Apparently it will be coming to iOS soon, But given how gimped Google Now is on iOS, I wonder how good the experience would be for Google Play Music on iOS.
The only app that I missed from the iPad was the excellent Flipboard. And it's now available on Android - optimized for tablets.
I saw references to GarageBand. I'm not a musician so have no idea how good it is or what the quality of music apps is on Android. But an amateur musician friend of mine uses Caustic 2 (https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.singlecellsoftware.caustic). That doesn't look like it could win many UI awards, but he really seems to like it.
One of the reasons, why I sold my iPad was due to the lack of an exposed file system which wouldn't let me move photos around in folders to create my own galleries. Root Explorer is a top paid app. I used to use it. Now I use Solid Explorer which is tablet optimized and extremely well. Apart from dual view files systems, I can also move files in and out of FTP, SFTP, Samba shares and cloud storage like Box and DropBox. Won't see that on iOS.
I'll be giving Google Gestures a try as that sounds like it will seamlessly merge into my setup. ES File Explorer is also a solid choice for what you're describing above. You might already be familiar with it as it's very popular as well, but it's what I use and I love it.
One of the reasons, why I sold my iPad was due to the lack of an exposed file system which wouldn't let me move photos around in folders to create my own galleries. Root Explorer is a top paid app. I used to use it. Now I use Solid Explorer which is tablet optimized and extremely well. Apart from dual view files systems, I can also move files in and out of FTP, SFTP, Samba shares and cloud storage like Box and DropBox. Won't see that on iOS.
You are not credible. The iPhoto app will let you create your own galleries. You don't know? The fact is for iOS, your use various apps to play with files.
Comments
I have no problem waging the good war... been doing it for 36 years! I do think you have to choose your battles and leaders wisely.
I do respect someone "burnishing the pen" in waging the battle -- what I don't respect is one who burnishes the facts or misrepresents or elides them
IMO, DED is mostly a gossip who poses as a journalist... the exception is the occasional article which delivers an even-handed presentation of the subject.
It took me a long time to realize this and to take this decision -- as DED and I share a common like [for lack of a getter word] for Apple and general dislike for unethical competitors (including, MS, Google, Sammy).
Our household is MS-free *, Sammy-free and mostly Google-free. Those choices were made based on my experience, observations of others -- but, hopefully, a minimum of disinformation of the type usually spewed by DED.
I will comment further in response to a later post...
Originally Posted by macack
I'm a Mac person but Android has iOS by the short hairs here.
That'd be because Android is just phone apps all the way down.
I think you do Gruber, Elmer-DeWitt, Dediu (and the few others) * a disservice by including DED in the group!
Other than that, I agree with most of what you say! However, I think the excesses of DED reportings only gives ammunition to the opposition and helps them to justify their "activities"... "after all, Apple (or by proxy, Apple fans and journalists) do it too".
* The aforementioned (and hopefully I) frequently compliment something "done well" by Apples biggest enemies... I cannot recall DED ever doing that except as part of a snide or backhanded presentation.
FWIW, I think the US is similarly challenged by poor leadership (both parties), cheating and misrepresentation of the truth.
+++ QFT
To win a war, you first have to realize that you are in one!
Quote:
Originally Posted by jivester
Do you all hear yourselves!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! OMG, I can't believe the holier than thou-war cry-pseudoreligiosity crap that is on this page! Just WOW!
Agreed. Sadly, you can't stop those mindless posters on either side... all you can do is try not to sound holier-than-thou yourself, and try to post substantive info and arguments instead of their kind of empty "crap"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macky the Macky
Apple has opened up iOS7 to accomplish much of what you mention above. Once iOS7 is released, most of the existing apps are ready to take full advantage of the improved communication between apps. In addition, multitasking will be vasty improved.
I've read about inter-app audio (http://www.imore.com/ios-7-preview-inter-app-audio), but has Apple announced more general inter-app communication methods like Windows 8 contracts or android intents?
Quote:
Originally Posted by nagromme
Never confuse sheer numbers with quality
And then on tablets we have the issue that commission-driven carrier salespeople aren't tossing bottom-end awful Android devices at uninformed shoppers. Android loses that major first-time-buyer advantage when it comes to tablets. (Not their only advantage of course: dirt-cheap devices sell on price alone around the world, and Apple won't make anything that poor; but those aren't big app-buying customers either.) People expecting Android to "catch up" and offer people as much as iOS seem to be forever reaching just over the horizon that never comes...
I've used both Apple and Android and the 'quality' of phone apps is very comparable- at least among the top 1000 apps. The rest I really don't care about because I'm never going to load 93948202 apps on my phone. Usually less than 50 even.
The point made though is that Apple users main argument currently *is* about volume of apps. There are WAY MORE tablet optimized apps for iPad than Android tablets. I agree with that statement, but its another one of those metrics Apple is going to lose and then the argument will have to be changed to something else again. Android phone apps run much better on Android tablets than Apple phone apps run on iPads. So Apple users assuming phone apps suck on tablets because that's the way it is in their ecosystem isn't really accurate. The only drawback to phone apps on Android tablets is that they could do more with the real estate (additional menus etc).
There's room for both platforms to be great. The argument just surprises me in its dogma. It's like when I had my iPhone and the Blackberry users would always spout it was a toy and couldn't do real time push notifications or whatever. It was just such a short sighted argument to make. Did they not see the writing on the wall on how easy it was to make an iPhone do what only a Blackberry could then do- yet it was a near impossibility to make the Blackberries do what an iPhone could do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frood
I agree with that statement, but its another one of those metrics Apple is going to lose and then the argument will have to be changed to something else again.
When measurable differences don't work out in your favor just state that those metrics don't mean anything and shift focus to something that is subjective and can't be measured.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhikl
I'm just thankful that we have a few good men like this man on our side. I've seen sites, good Apple sites, lose honest Apple viewers, to the destruction of good argument, when taken over by Haters whose sole objective is the undermining of any arguments that support Apple's position. The MacObserver, for example, had a particularly nasty troll who was clever, informed and devious enough that he had the editors acquiescing on minor points as he nitpicked the site to harm such that the editors supported him when he was 'attacked', even questioned by less abled site members. In my opinion, when heart is lost, a grave injustice is done. That is when I had my turnaround. That is why I support the DED to the good, the honourable fight. He may approach the line and let a toe venture to the other side, but so what!. He is right and those who spiel lies and deception for their tired tirades trust the fire be returned.
Hmm, mhikl, you don't say? The MacObserver, huh? A particularly nasty troll?!?!? Sounds vaguely familiar!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frood
I've used both Apple and Android and the 'quality' of phone apps is very comparable- at least among the top 1000 apps. The rest I really don't care about because I'm never going to load 93948202 apps on my phone. Usually less than 50 even.
The point made though is that Apple users main argument currently *is* about volume of apps. ...
Your stance seems religious in nature--as though you're working backwards from an emotion to find anything that supports it. Maybe not. I'd be interested in getting to the real facts.
"Apple users main argument is about volume" ... ?
I don't know what your evidence is for that, but regardless, it's wrong to argue that and if they do, it's not worth it. Volume of apps matters, but not beyond a certain point (it's a problem on Windows Phone, say) and only if quality is the same. It's secondary. Volume OF quality is what matters.
"the 'quality' of phone apps is very comparable- at least among the top 1000 apps"
You've used or seen the top 1000 apps on both platforms in enough depth to judge them? That sounds like it could be made up. (And the most popular apps are the only ones that matter? I don't think people are all as alike in the needs and uses as that.)
As for quality, I don't see the evidence you do--I see people with Android tablets struggling with mediocre apps, and I see people online looking for Android equivalents of great iOS apps and failing. I don't doubt you've had a different experience--but I'm not just guessing, I have evidence for what I've seen.
If you've seen something very different, then I'd be interested in your answer to my first question here. What ARE those Android apps that answer that?
"So Apple users assuming phone apps suck on tablets because that's the way it is in their ecosystem isn't really accurate."
No, we're not assuming--we've seen them. Some major examples are depicted in this very article. And you conveniently skip over the point that iPad users seldom HAVE to resort to running phone apps. It's like saying the iPad is poor because is has no defragger
Quote:
Originally Posted by DroidFTW
When measurable differences don't work out in your favor just state that those metrics don't mean anything and shift focus to something that is subjective and can't be measured.
That is actually an excellent point. The Android fan position often amounts to: "quality doesn't matter." Rather than debate whether quality can be "measured," I will acknowledge that it matters more to iOS users than Android users. For certain.
"Quality doesn't matter" is actually a common anti-Apple position in general over the years: it's the root of bullet-point marketing. "Apple product does 9 things well. Non-Apple product does 10 things poorly. Non-Apple product is better! I measured the bullet points!"
And yet... the same people who say quality can't be judged can still choose one Android app over another, or one Windows laptop over another, or whatever... based on quality! They seem to understand more than they let on...
Quote:
Originally Posted by nagromme
That is actually an excellent point. The Android fan position often amounts to: "quality doesn't matter." Rather than debate whether quality can be "measured," I will acknowledge that it matters more to iOS users than Android users. For certain.
"Quality doesn't matter" is actually a common anti-Apple position in general over the years: it's the root of bullet-point marketing. "Apple product does 9 things well. Non-Apple product does 10 things poorly. Non-Apple product is better! I measured the bullet points!"
And yet... the same people who say quality can't be judged can still choose one Android app over another, or one Windows laptop over another, or whatever... based on quality! They seem to understand more than they let on...
I hope you're not referring to me because I would never say that quality doesn't matter. It most certainly does. I could see where two people may disagree on what has better quality between two choices, but this is the first I've ever heard of someone saying that there's a common stance that quality doesn't matter. Is this from online reading or from anecdotal evidence? Do you have any sources to back up your assertion that Android users think that quality doesn't matter?
Well, that is not really true.
With current state of technology, virtualization is already viable alternative for hard-coded legacy support. Yes, new Windows still has infamous Registry, but when you compare XP and Vista/7/8, you will see that they are very different beasts.
Current problem with Windows is pushing changes too far and, according to many, in a wrong direction - rather than lack of them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by macack
iOS has not done phone-on-tablet as well since the beginning and still doesn't. I'm a Mac person but Android has iOS by the short hairs here. On my Android tablet (I own one of each system) a "phone app" will open full screen, behave properly, change horizons when I turn my tablet and is crisper than any iOS App that has been "2x"d. Fonts all work and look beautiful... it's a much better experience. And often I don't know a "phone app" is even a phone app unless I've looked specifically for that info. Some developers do design better than others but overall... seriously, Android's implementation is much better on this aspect.
Has it occurred to you that maybe Apple screwed over the porting of phone apps on the ipad exactly so developers have to create optimised tablet apps?
Quote:
Originally Posted by abazigal
Has it occurred to you that maybe Apple screwed over the porting of phone apps on the ipad exactly so developers have to create optimised tablet apps?
What an odd statement.
In what way have Apple "screwed over the porting of phone apps on the iPad"? I have two iPhone/iPod touch apps on the App Store. They run identically on both my iPod touch and my iPad. It's possible to run them at 2xon the iPad (which can be better or not depending on the app) but obviously can make things look rather pixellated in which case just run the app at standard resolution and it will behave just as if it were running on an iPod touch.
The app I'm writing at present is Universal which means that it runs at full size and natively on both the 3.5" and 4" iPhones/iPod touches and will run full screen at native resolution on the iPad including Retina display on all of those devices. Apple introduced Universal apps at the same time as the iPad and as a developer I can choose when I create an app to make it iPhone only, iPad only or Universal. It's amazing that after Apple stating this at events and it being on their website that some people still find it so hard to understand.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crosslad
I agree that the quality of android apps is poor. I use the iWork apps regularly for creating and editing documents. I bought a Samsung tab2 7.0 because I wanted to try android. The Tab2 came with Polaris Office and I bought Quick Office Pro HD (google owned) and Kingsoft Office (free). None of these compare favourably to the iWork apps. Whilst they all open documents ok they are lacking when it comes to creating documents. Polaris doesn't have a spell checker, Quick Office can't create charts in spreadsheets an none have transitions in presentations. Plus the lack of screen real estate makes them virtually unusable with a soft keyboard. All in all office apps on android are a huge disappointment. I can actually create documents more easily using iWork in my iPhone 3GS.
Office Suite Pro does both. Transitions in slides as well as charts in spreadsheet.
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.mobisystems.editor.office_with_reg
Also, the Asus Transformer (which I had) and the HP Slatebook's (which I may buy) tablet/laptop keyboard are excellent for typing. Because they lock in and can be carted around as a single unit, I find them far superior to carrying a separate BT keyboard and mounting the tablet on a table. I can keep it on my lap and type.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nagromme
P.S. I never get an answer (maybe there is none?) but for Android fans: what are the great, tablet-optimized exclusive apps for Android?
Here's a list of the top Android Paid apps
https://play.google.com/store/apps/collection/topselling_paid
SwiftKey is an excellent keyboard (tablet optimized) app. You aren't going to see that on iOS.
Nova Launcher is an excellent launcher. You won't see that on iOS either. It allows me to change transitions, add/removes pages, multiple docks, change the L&F etc. Plus allows me to backup and restore my desktop settings across devices.
HD Widgets/Beautiful Widgets. I have a completely customized clock/weather widget with a widget for multiple timezones. The widget also has some quick toggle built in. In addition, I have Google's "My Library" widget from which I can quickly launch the last book, magazine, song, or video I was reading or watching. At a glance, I can see the meetings for the day and the week with the Calendar widget. The Google Keep widget allows me to quickly jot down a note or make a list. Synced to the cloud so if I make one on the PC before I leave home, it's right on my screen on the phone when shopping without having to search for an launch a tasks app. I used to have a Shazam widget on my phone so it could find a song that was playing. But I now use Google Now for that.
NotificationToggle allows me to add a notification menu that houses some quick apps and toggles that are not in the default OS toggles. One of the first app I add is Google Gestures. When I need to get to a contact, I drop down the notification shade, launch Gestures and start scrawling the letters. I don't recall the last time I used the Contacts app. Neither of these apps are tablet "optimized", but work like a charm on phones and tablets. Not possible on iOS.
There are innumerable game emulators. I'm not much of a gamer. So I have no idea how well they work or if they make any sense on a tablet. But it's an option for me to have checked out if I was so inclined.
One of the reasons, why I sold my iPad was due to the lack of an exposed file system which wouldn't let me move photos around in folders to create my own galleries. Root Explorer is a top paid app. I used to use it. Now I use Solid Explorer which is tablet optimized and extremely well. Apart from dual view files systems, I can also move files in and out of FTP, SFTP, Samba shares and cloud storage like Box and DropBox. Won't see that on iOS.
Titanium Backup, not tablet optimized. Would be better if it was. It's not getting any awards for UI anyway. But it's rock solid and I don't know if there are apps like that on iOS (maybe in Cydia).
Google Play Music which I just love. Apparently it will be coming to iOS soon, But given how gimped Google Now is on iOS, I wonder how good the experience would be for Google Play Music on iOS.
The only app that I missed from the iPad was the excellent Flipboard. And it's now available on Android - optimized for tablets.
I saw references to GarageBand. I'm not a musician so have no idea how good it is or what the quality of music apps is on Android. But an amateur musician friend of mine uses Caustic 2 (https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.singlecellsoftware.caustic). That doesn't look like it could win many UI awards, but he really seems to like it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by os2baba
One of the reasons, why I sold my iPad was due to the lack of an exposed file system which wouldn't let me move photos around in folders to create my own galleries. Root Explorer is a top paid app. I used to use it. Now I use Solid Explorer which is tablet optimized and extremely well. Apart from dual view files systems, I can also move files in and out of FTP, SFTP, Samba shares and cloud storage like Box and DropBox. Won't see that on iOS.
I'll be giving Google Gestures a try as that sounds like it will seamlessly merge into my setup. ES File Explorer is also a solid choice for what you're describing above. You might already be familiar with it as it's very popular as well, but it's what I use and I love it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by os2baba
One of the reasons, why I sold my iPad was due to the lack of an exposed file system which wouldn't let me move photos around in folders to create my own galleries. Root Explorer is a top paid app. I used to use it. Now I use Solid Explorer which is tablet optimized and extremely well. Apart from dual view files systems, I can also move files in and out of FTP, SFTP, Samba shares and cloud storage like Box and DropBox. Won't see that on iOS.
You are not credible. The iPhoto app will let you create your own galleries. You don't know? The fact is for iOS, your use various apps to play with files.