Apple announces sales of 9 million iPhone 5s & 5c units in first 3 days

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  • Reply 181 of 219
    jragostajragosta Posts: 10,473member
    chadbag wrote: »
    In the world of the SEC, "sold" has a very specific meaning.  You cannot count it as sold until you have collected the revenue (for items like this).  So, for example, my 5S which I ordered a couple minutes past midnight Thursday NIght/Friday morning, and which is not scheduled to ship for another week or more, is not counted in that 9 million since they have not actually charged my credit card yet.  Once they charge the card, accept payment, they can count it as a sale.

    You are absolutely, totally wrong in the bolded part. A sale can occur when an agreement to pay happens and a financial obligation is incurred.

    For example, when you buy a car and finance it at the dealership, it's a sale, even though you haven't paid for it. In business, it's quite common to offer terms - net 30, net 60, etc - on sale of goods. Yet they count as a sale when they ship - even though you won't collect the money for 30 or 60 days.

    The latter part is true - they normally can't count it as a sale if they haven't shipped the product (there are exceptions, but they're fairly esoteric and rarely happen). In the case of your iPhone, it will count as a sale when Apple ships it to you. The only gray area is whether Apple counts it as a sale when they ship 100,000 phones to AT&T or when AT&T sells them to a customer. The answer to that would depend on the exact terms of their contract.
  • Reply 182 of 219
    jungmarkjungmark Posts: 6,926member
    aussiepaul wrote: »
    Really?  I don't believe you.  By hitting the purchase button, you and Apple have entered into a contract of sale.  The charging of the credit card is relatively meaningless.  Apple would almost certainly count an approved and collected contract of sale as a sale.  I know I would.  If you have actual evidence that suggests otherwise, by all means enlighten us.  But of course none of us do.  Only those inside certain sections of Apple's upper echelons would have that kind of information.

    Nope. See GAAP. They can accrue the "sale" for the next acctg period but they can't book it as actual revenue without getting payment. No revenue = no sale. They don't get payment until they ship.
  • Reply 183 of 219
    chadbag wrote: »
    In the world of the SEC, "sold" has a very specific meaning.  You cannot count it as sold until you have collected the revenue (for items like this).  So, for example, my 5S which I ordered a couple minutes past midnight Thursday NIght/Friday morning, and which is not scheduled to ship for another week or more, is not counted in that 9 million since they have not actually charged my credit card yet.  Once they charge the card, accept payment, they can count it as a sale.

    That's easy to tell from a Apple store, but how about all the phones sold through resellers? When does Apple get the money for those? Before or after delivery? If I bought 100 iPhones to sell in my store are those shipped or sold?
  • Reply 184 of 219
    chadbagchadbag Posts: 2,008member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jragosta View Post





    You are absolutely, totally wrong in the bolded part. A sale can occur when an agreement to pay happens and a financial obligation is incurred.



    For example, when you buy a car and finance it at the dealership, it's a sale, even though you haven't paid for it. In business, it's quite common to offer terms - net 30, net 60, etc - on sale of goods. Yet they count as a sale when they ship - even though you won't collect the money for 30 or 60 days.



    The latter part is true - they normally can't count it as a sale if they haven't shipped the product (there are exceptions, but they're fairly esoteric and rarely happen). In the case of your iPhone, it will count as a sale when Apple ships it to you. The only gray area is whether Apple counts it as a sale when they ship 100,000 phones to AT&T or when AT&T sells them to a customer. The answer to that would depend on the exact terms of their contract.

     

    Picking nits.  Since Apple does not offer terms, and does not collect the money until they ship (standard practice for this sort of consumer good), it is basically equivalent.  Merely placing an order does not allow Apple to call it a sale.  I can easily cancel that order right from the Apple website.  (I was not sure of the terms, but there is a reason I said "(for items like this)."

     


    Your car example is a bad one, since the car dealership DOES get the money right away.   When I finance a car, the finance company pays the balance to the dealer right away.   And the contract signed is a binding contract, unlike the order placed on the Apple website.


     


    I suspect that Apple can count stuff shipped to resellers like AT&T immediately, in terms of legal requirements, but I am not sure.  I do believe I have read in the past that Apple generally only releases numbers for end user sales (they would have to get the data from AT&T, Verizon, etc) but I am not sure about that.


     


    The main point and take away is that these 9 million were ones that were actually sold in store, put into the "cannot cancel anymore shipping soon" mode, etc, and not merely orders placed that won't be fulfilled for a week or three or five.
  • Reply 185 of 219
    chadbagchadbag Posts: 2,008member

    From Wikipedia on the "Recognition of Revenue"

     

     

    Quote:

    Received advances are not recognized as revenues, but as liabilities (deferred income), until the conditions (1.) and (2.) are met.


    1. Revenues are realized when cash or claims to cash (receivable) are received in exchange for goods or services. Revenues are realizable when assets received in such exchange are readily convertible to cash or claim to cash.

    2. Revenues are earned when such goods/services are transferred/rendered. Both such payment assurance and final delivery completion (with a provision for returns, warranty claims, etc.), are required for revenue recognition.

    Recognition of revenue from four types of transactions:


    1. Revenues from selling inventory are recognized at the date of sale often interpreted as the date of delivery.

    2. Revenues from rendering services are recognized when services are completed and billed.

    3. Revenue from permission to use company's assets (e.g. interests for using money, rent for using fixed assets, and royalties for using intangible assets) is recognized as time passes or as assets are used.

    4. Revenue from selling an asset other than inventory is recognized at the point of sale, when it takes place.

    In practice, this means that revenue is recognized when an invoice has been sent.

     



     

    Since Apple does not offer terms, revenue is only bookable when exchanged for goods or services.  Commonly understood to be at the date of delivery (or shipping depending on the terms of shipping I would assume since Apple has no real good way to keep track of millions of individual Fedex/UPS/DHL/Yamato/etc deliveries.)

  • Reply 186 of 219
    jragostajragosta Posts: 10,473member
    chadbag wrote: »
    Picking nits.  Since Apple does not offer terms, and does not collect the money until they ship (standard practice for this sort of consumer good), it is basically equivalent.  Merely placing an order does not allow Apple to call it a sale.  I can easily cancel that order right from the Apple website.  (I was not sure of the terms, but there is a reason I said "(for items like this)."

    I agreed with that. As I said, when Apple ships, it is a sale.

    I was disagreeing with your statement "In the world of the SEC, "sold" has a very specific meaning. You cannot count it as sold until you have collected the revenue (for items like this)."

    That is clearly false. You can count something as a sale before you've collected the revenue. Even for items like an iPhone, companies can offer a deferred payment plan - and still count it as a sale. Your statement that the SEC wouldn't allow that is 100% false.
  • Reply 187 of 219
    jungmarkjungmark Posts: 6,926member
    jragosta wrote: »
    I agreed with that. As I said, when Apple ships, it is a sale.

    I was disagreeing with your statement "In the world of the SEC, "sold" has a very specific meaning. You cannot count it as sold until you have collected the revenue (for items like this)."

    That is clearly false. You can count something as a sale before you've collected the revenue. Even for items like an iPhone, companies can offer a deferred payment plan - and still count it as a sale. Your statement that the SEC wouldn't allow that is 100% false.
    But companies usually get a down payment or the items are financed behind the scenes and the customer doesn't know about.

    Those don't apply to iPhones as they collect payment was they ship.
  • Reply 188 of 219
    chadbagchadbag Posts: 2,008member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jragosta View Post





    I agreed with that. As I said, when Apple ships, it is a sale.



    I was disagreeing with your statement "In the world of the SEC, "sold" has a very specific meaning. You cannot count it as sold until you have collected the revenue (for items like this)."



    That is clearly false. You can count something as a sale before you've collected the revenue. Even for items like an iPhone, companies can offer a deferred payment plan - and still count it as a sale. Your statement that the SEC wouldn't allow that is 100% false.

     

    No, its not.  The context is Apple, which does not have deferred payment plans or anything, and whose "online orders" don't meet the threshold.  The SEC would not like it very  much, I'd guess, if Apple made public statements about sales that were not sales.

     


    My statement was not clear and could have been phrased better, but was speaking about Apple and in the Apple context.
  • Reply 189 of 219
    rogifan wrote: »
    I think this is the first iPhone sales announcement where they mentioned the number of iOS devices running the new software. 200 million. Fastest software upgrade in history. Not bad for software that s supposedly the worst thing ever designed in the history of software. :D
    I have seemed to find most people hating at beginning but people just figured "ohhh it is the same thing looking different (still not very liked look) with tiny perks"

    9 million iPhones in first weekend, darn my goal was 10 (who knows maybe it has hit 10 by now) but probably about 8 Million of those are the 5S (which was sad for the preorders getting screwed) apple might have lost a few there.
  • Reply 190 of 219
    aussiepaul wrote: »
    Really?  I don't believe you.  By hitting the purchase button, you and Apple have entered into a contract of sale.  The charging of the credit card is relatively meaningless.  Apple would almost certainly count an approved and collected contract of sale as a sale.  I know I would.  If you have actual evidence that suggests otherwise, by all means enlighten us.  But of course none of us do.  Only those inside certain sections of Apple's upper echelons would have that kind of information.
    Go check the T&C bud, I bet you never buy anything from Apple store.
  • Reply 191 of 219
    chadbag wrote: »
    In the world of the SEC, "sold" has a very specific meaning.  You cannot count it as sold until you have collected the revenue (for items like this).  So, for example, my 5S which I ordered a couple minutes past midnight Thursday NIght/Friday morning, and which is not scheduled to ship for another week or more, is not counted in that 9 million since they have not actually charged my credit card yet.  Once they charge the card, accept payment, they can count it as a sale.

    Give it up. FUD changes nothing. Nine million people still bought iPhones this weekend. Wordplay doesn't change that.
  • Reply 192 of 219
    quinneyquinney Posts: 2,528member
    chadbag wrote: »
    In the world of the SEC, "sold" has a very specific meaning.  You cannot count it as sold until you have collected the revenue (for items like this).  So, for example, my 5S which I ordered a couple minutes past midnight Thursday NIght/Friday morning, and which is not scheduled to ship for another week or more, is not counted in that 9 million since they have not actually charged my credit card yet.  Once they charge the card, accept payment, they can count it as a sale.

    Give it up. FUD changes nothing. Nine million people still bought iPhones this weekend. Wordplay doesn't change that.

    I don't think he is fudding. I think he is saying that nine million is understating the number of people who have committed to buying a new iPhone already. As soon as shipments catch up with orders, there will be millions more sales.
  • Reply 193 of 219
    Originally Posted by quinney View Post
    I think he is saying that nine million is understating the number of people who have committed to buying a new iPhone already. As soon as shipments catch up with orders, there will be millions more sales.

     

    I read it as “Apple is lying about sales because they’re counting my order and it hasn’t been charged yet.”

  • Reply 194 of 219

     Because samsung products remind people of this F***ing retard!

  • Reply 195 of 219
    So let me get this straight...

    Apple sold about 9 million phones in the opening weekend, which is about the same number of phones sold in the opening weekend last year if you include the discounted previous year's model, which is pretty much exactly what the 5c is, except this time they're claiming the previous year's model as a new phone.

    Of this 9 million probably about 5.5 million are 5s sales, again only slightly higher than last year's 5 million iPhone 5 sales. But because the 5c is 'new' and the 4s was 'old' Apple used careful wording to make it sound like a jump from 5 to 9 million for opening weekend sales!

    If these numbers and interpretation of the situation are true then it's hardly the big jump that Apple would have us believe and would suggest growth has slowed significantly. Of course the 's' iterations traditionally don't do as well but I'm just wondering how this growth rate compares to recent releases, especially considering all the effort they've put into the 5c, Touch ID, the A7/M7 etc.

    While it appears to be a case of very clever marketing (because many news outlets are reporting the results incorrectly) it could also be argued that Apple have been somewhat deceptive and have created the sense of stronger than actual demand through very careful wording and selective release of sales figures.

    If so then marketing can only get you so far, but to be honest I'm a bit surprised that the 5c has even sold as well as it has. It seems to be mainly in countries like Japan that are fluoro/plastic obsessed because the statistics I saw from Australia show minuscule 5c sales. You can basically walk in to any Apple shop and pick one up now.
  • Reply 196 of 219
    jragostajragosta Posts: 10,473member
    s.metcalf wrote: »
    So let me get this straight...

    Apple sold about 9 million phones in the opening weekend, which is about the same number of phones sold in the opening weekend last year if you include the discounted previous year's model, which is pretty much exactly what the 5c is, except this time they're claiming the previous year's model as a new phone.

    I'd be interested in your evidence for them having sold 9 M phones last year during the first weekend.

    And then maybe you can explain why Cook lied by saying that it was a record.

    chadbag wrote: »
    No, its not.  The context is Apple, which does not have deferred payment plans or anything, and whose "online orders" don't meet the threshold.  The SEC would not like it very  much, I'd guess, if Apple made public statements about sales that were not sales.
     
    My statement was not clear and could have been phrased better, but was speaking about Apple and in the Apple context.

    No, your statement was false. You didn't say anything about Apple. Your statement was:
    "In the world of the SEC, "sold" has a very specific meaning. You cannot count it as sold until you have collected the revenue (for items like this)."

    In the world of the SEC, that is a false statement. You CAN count it as sold before you have collected the revenue. You weren't saying anything about Apple.

    Furthermore, you don't know for sure that Apple waits until they've collected the revenue to count it as sold. For consumers, they do. They charge your credit card when they ship. But you don't have any idea how they handle carrier or distributor sales. For example, let's say they ship 500,000 phones to Walmart. You can be pretty sure that Walmart doesn't pay by credit card when those phones ship - and probably not by wire transfer. Walmart almost certainly has payment terms (probably net 30 or net 45). So Apple gets credit for the sale when they ship half a million phones to Walmart, but doesn't get the money for a few weeks.

    Your statement was flat out wrong.
  • Reply 197 of 219
    chadbagchadbag Posts: 2,008member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jragosta View Post





    I'd be interested in your evidence for them having sold 9 M phones last year during the first weekend.



    And then maybe you can explain why Cook lied by saying that it was a record.

    No, your statement was false. You didn't say anything about Apple. Your statement was:

    "In the world of the SEC, "sold" has a very specific meaning. You cannot count it as sold until you have collected the revenue (for items like this)."



    In the world of the SEC, that is a false statement. You CAN count it as sold before you have collected the revenue. You weren't saying anything about Apple.



    Furthermore, you don't know for sure that Apple waits until they've collected the revenue to count it as sold. For consumers, they do. They charge your credit card when they ship. But you don't have any idea how they handle carrier or distributor sales. For example, let's say they ship 500,000 phones to Walmart. You can be pretty sure that Walmart doesn't pay by credit card when those phones ship - and probably not by wire transfer. Walmart almost certainly has payment terms (probably net 30 or net 45). So Apple gets credit for the sale when they ship half a million phones to Walmart, but doesn't get the money for a few weeks.



    Your statement was flat out wrong.

     

    My statement was not wrong.  We are talking about Apple and that was the context.   Since we are in a thread about Apple, I don't have to qualify my statement.  It is already qualified by the context of the thread.   Apple does not sell on deferred plans so that is irrelevant.

     


    And furthermore, the SEC looks at false or misleading statements made in public, which was my point.  It is not looking at GAAP revenue recognition when a company claims to have sold X number of units.  It is looking at actual sales when someone claims to have sold X units.


     


    And I don't even think that Apple is talking about phones shipped to the channel or resellers.  I think it gathers sales data from their reseller partners before it makes announcements.  See my statement above about false or misleading statements.  Companies usually use words like "shipped X units" when they are talking about numbers being shipped to resellers or into a sales channel.


     


    But yes, you are always right.  Sorry to offend your sensibilities.
  • Reply 198 of 219
    chadbagchadbag Posts: 2,008member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by s.metcalf View Post



    So let me get this straight...



    Apple sold about 9 million phones in the opening weekend, which is about the same number of phones sold in the opening weekend last year if you include the discounted previous year's model, which is pretty much exactly what the 5c is, except this time they're claiming the previous year's model as a new phone.



    Of this 9 million probably about 5.5 million are 5s sales, again only slightly higher than last year's 5 million iPhone 5 sales. But because the 5c is 'new' and the 4s was 'old' Apple used careful wording to make it sound like a jump from 5 to 9 million for opening weekend sales!



    If these numbers and interpretation of the situation are true then it's hardly the big jump that Apple would have us believe and would suggest growth has slowed significantly. Of course the 's' iterations traditionally don't do as well but I'm just wondering how this growth rate compares to recent releases, especially considering all the effort they've put into the 5c, Touch ID, the A7/M7 etc.



    While it appears to be a case of very clever marketing (because many news outlets are reporting the results incorrectly) it could also be argued that Apple have been somewhat deceptive and have created the sense of stronger than actual demand through very careful wording and selective release of sales figures.



    If so then marketing can only get you so far, but to be honest I'm a bit surprised that the 5c has even sold as well as it has. It seems to be mainly in countries like Japan that are fluoro/plastic obsessed because the statistics I saw from Australia show minuscule 5c sales. You can basically walk in to any Apple shop and pick one up now.

     

    Do you have any evidence of your claims?  Apple does not break out sales by model so please back up your claims about last years sales.  I do believe that those numbers from last year were total weekend iPhone sales, the vast majority of which were iPhone 5 models (since it was the new phone launch weekend, I would guess 95%+ but that is a WAG).  But there probably was not 3-4 million iPhone 4/4S sold in 2012 on the iPhone 5 launch weekend.

     

    3rd party analysis shows this weekend that about 3.4 or more iPhone 5S were sold for every 5C so that makes the 5S sales about 7 million, not 5.5 million.

     

    Please provide evidence for your claims.

  • Reply 199 of 219
    chadbagchadbag Posts: 2,008member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post





    Give it up. FUD changes nothing. Nine million people still bought iPhones this weekend. Wordplay doesn't change that.

     

    What word play?   I am fighting against the word play that others are using trying to claim that the phones ordered, but not shipping until October, were counted in this 9 million.  I think we're on the same side.

  • Reply 200 of 219
    chadbagchadbag Posts: 2,008member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

     

     

    I read it as “Apple is lying about sales because they’re counting my order and it hasn’t been charged yet.”


     

    You might want to learn to read then.   No where did I claim Apple is lying (either plus or minus).  I was replying to someone who was claiming that the 9 million includes all the orders that won't be fulfilled until October or whenever, which I do not believe to be the case, since they claim 9 million were sold and an easily cancelable order with no signed sales contract and no money changing hands is not a sale.  My specific example of my order was meant to show what I was talking about.  Nothing more, nothing less.

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