I have to disagree with you here. If I buy an app or album from iTunes in the UK, that sale should be counted as being made in the UK, not Ireland. Apple should therefore pay any tax on that sale in the UK. I think this is the only way to stop large multinational companies avoiding their tax liabilities.
I don't give a rat's ass if you think ``It's legal, no laws were broken'' is ethical. It's getting effing old. These rates are the very reason corporations are strong-holding the direction of all US Policies.
Pay your goddamn share of taxes, not this tax havens for every corporation who can spread them out across the globe!
If Apple paid "its share of taxes", then it would have to raise the prices of its products to maintain the same level of after-tax income, which means that sales would go down, which means that the companies everyone here loves to hate (Google, Samsung) would win. And before you say "well, but they would be paying higher taxes too", remember: if they do, they just pass the costs on to the consumer, but in the case of Samsung (which is, basically, Korea Inc), the government would be happy to keep their taxes low.
I prefer lower prices. And you make good points about Google.
USA, UK, Eire are the countries I was referring to. Why would the money flow freely into the pockets of shareholders? They get taxed only on capital gains which can often be significantly lower than income taxes. Better for Apple / Google / Etc to keep their money offshore and untaxed in either way.
I'm wholly against this nonsense of 'trickle down economics'. It's a delusion shared between those who want to justify keeping hold of money at all costs. When the richest ~100 people in the world outweigh the poorest half then we have a major worldwide problem. Apple and Google and Microsoft etc are just visible symptoms, the real cancer is the ideologies.
Thank you for sharing your ideology, but I don't think religious discussions are useful, since no one ever gets convinced of anything.
The EU has tariffs already. It's not going to worry about a trade war with the Carribean. In any case most workers in Europe will stay in Europe. But I don't think the EU can normalise taxes across the EU.
So the EU will apply tariffs selectively?
What about all the other stuff they import which will be subject to the same tariffs?
Then due to the uncompetitive advantage these tariffs will create, which country will not apply equivalent tariffs to EU exporters in order to protect their domestic industries.
Who will collect these EU based tariffs, how will they be distributed?
Remember the EU will be dealing with Irish companies like Amazon, Google, Apple and others have set up.
At least Apple has more than a letterbox in Ireland.
My position is the US is owed most of these taxes, morally. Not Ireland.
Why?
The money wasn't made in the US, the customers aren't in the US the products weren't made in the US, the only thing from the US is the design and other IP.
Why should non-US customers pay more for goods because companies have to pay a 35% tax to the US.
So much for free trade, a bullshit term if there ever was one with tariffs and protectionism being the order of the day.
There is no such thing as a level playing field as long as politicians want to get their hands on corporate riches.
What about all the other stuff they import which will be subject to the same tariffs?
Then due to the uncompetitive advantage these tariffs will create, which country will not apply equivalent tariffs to EU exporters in order to protect their domestic industries.
Who will collect these EU based tariffs, how will they be distributed?
Remember the EU will be dealing with Irish companies like Amazon, Google, Apple and others have set up.
At least Apple has more than a letterbox in Ireland.
As opposed to Luxembourg, where there is a letterbox through which the iTunes profits are funneled.
The money wasn't made in the US, the customers aren't in the US the products weren't made in the US, the only thing from the US is the design and other IP.
Why should non-US customers pay more for goods because companies have to pay a 35% tax to the US.
So much for free trade, a bullshit term if there ever was one with tariffs and protectionism being the order of the day.
There is no such thing as a level playing field as long as politicians want to get their hands on corporate riches.
The money was made by US intellectual property. The value added to an iPhone bought from Foxconn at $200 and sold to channel for $500 ( $300) is added by Cupertino.
Well actually the server is probably in Ireland. Or holland. All the UK is providing is consumers, not roads, police or healthcare for the non existant Apple headquarters, or data center in the UK. ( I think the location of the server doesn't matter.)
Now who do you think should pay tax on
1) Economist ads served from the UK sold in the US
2) guardian ads served from the UK sold in the US
3) online sales of GTA served from a UK server sold across the world.
4) a UK app dev who sells £1m in any year.
If VAT is paid where sold the world economy would collapse. App devs would have to return VAT records to every country in the world they sell to.
( in all of these cases the IP is also from the UK).
Well, I do think both governments should be paid somehow. There's no commerce without 2 parties, and both have benefitted from the law and order provided by their respective governments. If Apple is not paying the government in the consumer's country then the consumer himself should.
Well, I do think both governments should be paid somehow. There's no commerce without 2 parties, and both have benefitted from the law and order provided by their respective governments. If Apple is not paying the government in the consumer's country then the consumer himself should.
They do, it's called VAT, sales tax, GST or whatever various governments want to call a tax on buying stuff.
<div class="quote-container" data-huddler-embed="/t/161853/apples-cook-meets-with-irish-pm-to-discuss-taxes-future-growth-at-european-hq/40#post_2466516" data-huddler-embed-placeholder="false"><span>Quote:</span><div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Gatorguy</strong> <a href="/t/161853/apples-cook-meets-with-irish-pm-to-discuss-taxes-future-growth-at-european-hq/40#post_2466516"><img src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" class="inlineimg" alt="View Post"/></a><br/><br/><br />
Isn't that a tax paid by the end-user? Not entirely sure as I'm not in that region.</div></div><p> </p>
Yes, but it's collected by the seller.
So it's not the seller's money being paid then? They're simply accepting it as an agent of the government and passing it along. So there shouldn't be any tax on the profit realized by the seller. I guess that's what Hill60 is getting at. VAT isn't a tax the company pays at all, they simply collect it like I do with Sales Tax here and that's the end of their tax obligation. Did I get that right?
So it's not the seller's money being paid then? They're simply accepting it as an agent of the government and passing it along. So there shouldn't be any tax on the profit realized by the seller. I guess that's what Hill60 is getting at. VAT isn't a tax the company pays at all, they simply collect it like I do with Sales Tax here and that's the end of their tax obligation. Did I get that right?
Yes.
The taxes concerned in the article are corporate taxes on the company profits (basically income tax), not VAT/sales tax.
The government gets money twice for the same purchase (once in VAT/sales tax and once from the company profits).
Yes.
The taxes concerned in the article are corporate taxes on the company profits (basically income tax), not VAT/sales tax.
The government gets money twice for the same purchase (once in VAT/sales tax and once from the company profits). :no:
Ah, so similar to the US with sales tax, personal income tax and corporate tax. FWIW I get nailed on all three.
Comments
If Apple paid "its share of taxes", then it would have to raise the prices of its products to maintain the same level of after-tax income, which means that sales would go down, which means that the companies everyone here loves to hate (Google, Samsung) would win. And before you say "well, but they would be paying higher taxes too", remember: if they do, they just pass the costs on to the consumer, but in the case of Samsung (which is, basically, Korea Inc), the government would be happy to keep their taxes low.
I prefer lower prices. And you make good points about Google.
USA, UK, Eire are the countries I was referring to. Why would the money flow freely into the pockets of shareholders? They get taxed only on capital gains which can often be significantly lower than income taxes. Better for Apple / Google / Etc to keep their money offshore and untaxed in either way.
I'm wholly against this nonsense of 'trickle down economics'. It's a delusion shared between those who want to justify keeping hold of money at all costs. When the richest ~100 people in the world outweigh the poorest half then we have a major worldwide problem. Apple and Google and Microsoft etc are just visible symptoms, the real cancer is the ideologies.
Thank you for sharing your ideology, but I don't think religious discussions are useful, since no one ever gets convinced of anything.
The EU has tariffs already. It's not going to worry about a trade war with the Carribean. In any case most workers in Europe will stay in Europe. But I don't think the EU can normalise taxes across the EU.
So the EU will apply tariffs selectively?
What about all the other stuff they import which will be subject to the same tariffs?
Then due to the uncompetitive advantage these tariffs will create, which country will not apply equivalent tariffs to EU exporters in order to protect their domestic industries.
Who will collect these EU based tariffs, how will they be distributed?
Remember the EU will be dealing with Irish companies like Amazon, Google, Apple and others have set up.
At least Apple has more than a letterbox in Ireland.
My position is the US is owed most of these taxes, morally. Not Ireland.
Why?
The money wasn't made in the US, the customers aren't in the US the products weren't made in the US, the only thing from the US is the design and other IP.
Why should non-US customers pay more for goods because companies have to pay a 35% tax to the US.
So much for free trade, a bullshit term if there ever was one with tariffs and protectionism being the order of the day.
There is no such thing as a level playing field as long as politicians want to get their hands on corporate riches.
So the EU will apply tariffs selectively?
What about all the other stuff they import which will be subject to the same tariffs?
Then due to the uncompetitive advantage these tariffs will create, which country will not apply equivalent tariffs to EU exporters in order to protect their domestic industries.
Who will collect these EU based tariffs, how will they be distributed?
Remember the EU will be dealing with Irish companies like Amazon, Google, Apple and others have set up.
At least Apple has more than a letterbox in Ireland.
As opposed to Luxembourg, where there is a letterbox through which the iTunes profits are funneled.
Forget taxes. We want an Apple Store here in Ireland. Just one. Please!
Why doesn't your fearless leader demand one from Cook, as payment for tax haven privileges?
The money was made by US intellectual property. The value added to an iPhone bought from Foxconn at $200 and sold to channel for $500 ( $300) is added by Cupertino.
Probably because he isn't that fearless?
Why doesn't your fearless leader demand one from Cook, as payment for tax haven privileges?
Also probably because that’s not how laws work.
Well actually the server is probably in Ireland. Or holland. All the UK is providing is consumers, not roads, police or healthcare for the non existant Apple headquarters, or data center in the UK. ( I think the location of the server doesn't matter.)
Now who do you think should pay tax on
1) Economist ads served from the UK sold in the US
2) guardian ads served from the UK sold in the US
3) online sales of GTA served from a UK server sold across the world.
4) a UK app dev who sells £1m in any year.
If VAT is paid where sold the world economy would collapse. App devs would have to return VAT records to every country in the world they sell to.
( in all of these cases the IP is also from the UK).
Well, I do think both governments should be paid somehow. There's no commerce without 2 parties, and both have benefitted from the law and order provided by their respective governments. If Apple is not paying the government in the consumer's country then the consumer himself should.
They do, it's called VAT, sales tax, GST or whatever various governments want to call a tax on buying stuff.
Isn't that a tax paid by the end-user? Not entirely sure as I'm not in that region.
Isn't that a tax paid by the end-user? Not entirely sure as I'm not in that region.
Yes, but it's collected by the seller.So it's not the seller's money being paid then? They're simply accepting it as an agent of the government and passing it along. So there shouldn't be any tax on the profit realized by the seller. I guess that's what Hill60 is getting at. VAT isn't a tax the company pays at all, they simply collect it like I do with Sales Tax here and that's the end of their tax obligation. Did I get that right?
So it's not the seller's money being paid then? They're simply accepting it as an agent of the government and passing it along. So there shouldn't be any tax on the profit realized by the seller. I guess that's what Hill60 is getting at. VAT isn't a tax the company pays at all, they simply collect it like I do with Sales Tax here and that's the end of their tax obligation. Did I get that right?
Yes.
The taxes concerned in the article are corporate taxes on the company profits (basically income tax), not VAT/sales tax.
The government gets money twice for the same purchase (once in VAT/sales tax and once from the company profits).
Ah, so similar to the US with sales tax, personal income tax and corporate tax. FWIW I get nailed on all three.
BAM!
stupid goverrments...